Slight miss on 93 CSE - SaabCentral Forums
*
Home Saab Pictures Saab Classifieds Saab Dealer Listings Saab Forum Saab Forum


Go Back   SaabCentral Forums > Saab 9000 > 9000 Workshop

9000 Workshop 9000 (1985-1998) Technical Forum

SaabCentral.com is the premier Saab Forum on the internet. Registered Users do not see the above ads.
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 18th February 2012
jskrebs jskrebs is offline
SaabNut!
 
Join Date: Jan 2010                                                
Location: Westport, Pa
My Saabs: 93 9K CSE, 85 900T 3dr
Posts: 262
Default Slight miss on 93 CSE

I just completed a motor swap for a low mileage unit from Goldwing.
All went well but I seem to have a slight miss at low throttle.

It does not seem to miss when cold, but develops a miss when warmed up.
Only changed the long block, everything else the same.

Car does have TCS.

Plugs look good, changed the injector o rings, dic worked fine on old motor, no CEL - yet.

What else?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
  #2  
Old 18th February 2012
erix920 erix920 is offline
SaabNut!
 
Join Date: Apr 2010                                                
Location: USA
My Saabs: 2003 9-5 2.3L Aero
Posts: 348
Default

I have a 97 CSE and mine does the same. I have a feeling it's the plugs. I had one plug completely fail and it seems like its doing that now but more of a weak spark. It misses in neutral from 1-3k rpm. In drive I rarely ever notice it.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #3  
Old 18th February 2012
sp53 sp53 is offline
Saab Crazy
 
Join Date: Nov 2006                                                
Location: washington state
My Saabs: 1989 saab 9000 1992 9000 1993 9000
Posts: 780
Default

Well a 93 9000 with TCS is a unique situation because it is the first year for the T5 system and has the wiring unique to that that year and model. I bought one a while back that was in LHM with a blown autobox. I ended up removing the TCS because they have to be recalibrated when the ETB or some other critical part of the system has a problem. Basically, I am saying that as long as you have ETB you need special software to diagnose the problems, especially if it has slipped into LHM. The good news is it is not that difficult to remove the TCS and ETB if you can change engines, it would be easy. I did mine and basically i took off more than i put on. I had my computer re-flashed, swapped out the ETB for a non-ETB, put on an AIC valve, TPS, a stock gas pedal, and found joy.
Steve

Last edited by sp53; 27th March 2012 at 12:24 PM.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #4  
Old 18th February 2012
jskrebs jskrebs is offline
SaabNut!
 
Join Date: Jan 2010                                                
Location: Westport, Pa
My Saabs: 93 9K CSE, 85 900T 3dr
Posts: 262
Default

Found a vacuum leak around a fuel injector so I changes all the o rings which cleared things up a bit.

Also got a CEL #5 code which seems to be throttle position sensor.


Gonna need to mess with the ETB.
Can't change motors as I just installed this one. and it does not have the provision for a VR crank sensor, gotta stick with the T5.2 and ETB.

Googling all etb related material now.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #5  
Old 18th February 2012
sp53 sp53 is offline
Saab Crazy
 
Join Date: Nov 2006                                                
Location: washington state
My Saabs: 1989 saab 9000 1992 9000 1993 9000
Posts: 780
Default

Well I guess I was not clear. You can use the T 5.2 and the 93 9000 engine. I was referring to your personal ability to do mechanical work when I said “if can swap engines “, The ETB system does not have a throttle position sensor that stuff is in the ETB software. What year engine did you install in the car? If it was a 93 engine without ETB that would be interesting. My understanding is 90% of the American 93 9000 had TCS and ETB if you have one you have the other. Does it idle fast? The ECU could be looking for an TPS.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #6  
Old 18th February 2012
jskrebs jskrebs is offline
SaabNut!
 
Join Date: Jan 2010                                                
Location: Westport, Pa
My Saabs: 93 9K CSE, 85 900T 3dr
Posts: 262
Default

My car is a 93 that had ETB and TCS and I installed a motor from a 91, but I used all the 93 stuff essentially using the 91 motor as a long block. Since the 91 also uses a hall effect sensor for crank position with T5.1 I did not have to do a huge rewiring job. The ETB does have a TPS which is linked to the ETB ECU and then to the Trionic unit as it needs the info for fuel control. I believe the TPS in the ETB is bad passing bad data to the T5.2 ECU thus error code 5. Since the ETB has 200K on it I suspect is is a bit worn in fact it has been a bit erratic for a few years and if you look a the attached link you can get a look at what is inside. Overall it runs pretty good but the throttle is having an issue controlling the air at low engine operating speeds. Got a good used low mileage ETB en route. It would be really cool to find an ISAT or Tech 2 so I can calibrate the ETB better, but will have to live with what I have.

http://faq.saabnet.ru/_9000/tractioncontrolsystem.pdf

I do have a complete setup from a 94 9K sans ETB, but no way of getting the proper crank sensor installed on my motor.

Jeff
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #7  
Old 20th February 2012
jskrebs jskrebs is offline
SaabNut!
 
Join Date: Jan 2010                                                
Location: Westport, Pa
My Saabs: 93 9K CSE, 85 900T 3dr
Posts: 262
Default The Saga continues...........

I have a new ETB on the way to try to clear up the Throttle Position Fault. Assuming that the tps on the ETB is intermittent. After much reading it seems the tps on the etb feeds the etb ecu which in turn feeds T5 with a pwm signal indicating throttle position. If this goes on too long I do have all the stuff to do a TCS delete, but would love to have a 2nd ECU to flash as a backup.

During one of my test drives I got rough running and a #2 error code "Bad Map sensor" Swapped it out and cleared the fault. So far so good.

Additionally I have a miss in #3. Narrowed it down by pulling the electrical connections to the fuel injectors. Swapped #3 and #2 injector and the issue stayed with #3. Bad electrical connection or vacuum leak?
Going to do a compression check over lunch to rule that out.

Last edited by jskrebs; 20th February 2012 at 07:10 AM. Reason: additions
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #8  
Old 20th February 2012
sp53 sp53 is offline
Saab Crazy
 
Join Date: Nov 2006                                                
Location: washington state
My Saabs: 1989 saab 9000 1992 9000 1993 9000
Posts: 780
Default

Yes doing a re-flash is rewarding and deleting the TCS will perhaps be better in the long run; you will not go into LMH if there is a problem with the ETS or have to recalibrate again. I do not have a base line to draw from yet, so I do not know what a stock 9000 is like, but when my new best friend re-flashed my ECU he took it up a notch to STAGE 2 and the car is plenty fast. There is even a STAGE 3 that I am looking into. Go to the europroject .com that is where all the computer people share ideas.

You can purchase a rebuilt ETB for 400.00 with a year warranty also and just stay with the TCS. There are people that race these things and like TCS.

If you go to http://www.saablink.net/forum/general-9000-posts-information/57446.htm you can see were most the information about deleting a TCS from a 93 9000 exists. It was the Great Markus Dantinee that paved the way. He basically got the first 93 9000 I have heard of running that had a deleted TCS. I climbed on board and helped with the engine temp sensor and found some schematics that help with the wiring.
I am still confused on your engine. Did you use a 93 9000 head? When I hear the term long block, which usually means using a different head or the donor engine head. If so that could be a possible problem because don’t they use different FPR,? Perhaps you just have a defective plug in that problem cylinder. Any way good luck with your project and if I can help let me know.
steve
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #9  
Old 21st February 2012
jskrebs jskrebs is offline
SaabNut!
 
Join Date: Jan 2010                                                
Location: Westport, Pa
My Saabs: 93 9K CSE, 85 900T 3dr
Posts: 262
Default

First off I have a confession to make. I installed the intake gasket upside down which is the source of my vacuum leak. New gasket on it's way. Plugs, DIC, and injectors are all good.

Awful embarrassing

A long block is the head and block less manifolds and pumps. I got the long block from gold wing with less than 65K on it. Not cheap, but much cheaper than a rebuild on the old motor. I swapped everything over and dropped the motor trans in through the top. You need to install the intake in the car so you can wrestle the wires through it, this is where I messed up with the gasket.

I have a USB to CAN and BDM adapter which I have not wired up yet. I also have an 85 900T which I plan to convert to trionic so I have been gathering parts. Thinking of doing this as a 5.2 with double bin in a 5.5 ecu so I can use the 5.2 trigger wheel.

Once I correct my stupid mistake I'll tackle the TCS issue. It always worked fairly well with a bit of slop around idle and a hesitation when accelerating from low throttle. I only got LHM once when the valves failed. I do have a JT3" exhaust so I could go to Stage 2.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #10  
Old 21st February 2012
sp53 sp53 is offline
Saab Crazy
 
Join Date: Nov 2006                                                
Location: washington state
My Saabs: 1989 saab 9000 1992 9000 1993 9000
Posts: 780
Default

I guess I am still confused plus I am not sure about this next suggestion, but aren’t 91 and 93 heads and fuel injectors different? However, it sounds like you moved the 93 injectors over to the 91 motor, so that is probably cool. Just curious did you move the engine temp sensor over from the 93 TCS? Because the 93 is designed to fit a T5.2 it would probably start but run poorly when cold if it had the wrong engine temp sensor. Stay with it you will figure it out.

Last edited by sp53; 21st February 2012 at 01:32 PM.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #11  
Old 21st February 2012
jskrebs jskrebs is offline
SaabNut!
 
Join Date: Jan 2010                                                
Location: Westport, Pa
My Saabs: 93 9K CSE, 85 900T 3dr
Posts: 262
Default

Quote:
aren’t 91 and 93 heads and fuel injectors different?
Head seems to be the same, injectors are different.

Quote:
sounds like you moved the 93 injectors over to the 91 motor, so that is probably cool. Just curious did you move the engine temp sensor over from the 93 TCS?
Both are part of the intake manifold which stayed with the car, so the fuel injection system is exactly the same. I think I needed a 91 to 93 motor as it uses the same hall effect crank angle sensor mounted under the crank pulley, later motors used a crank sensor mounted through the back of the block pointed to a trigger wheel mounted on the crank.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #12  
Old 22nd February 2012
jskrebs jskrebs is offline
SaabNut!
 
Join Date: Jan 2010                                                
Location: Westport, Pa
My Saabs: 93 9K CSE, 85 900T 3dr
Posts: 262
Default

Nice write
up on TCS Delete

http://saabdiy.atwebpages.com/tcs.html
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #13  
Old 22nd February 2012
sp53 sp53 is offline
Saab Crazy
 
Join Date: Nov 2006                                                
Location: washington state
My Saabs: 1989 saab 9000 1992 9000 1993 9000
Posts: 780
Default

Yes that is a great write up. I wish I had seen when I was doing mine.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #14  
Old 25th February 2012
jskrebs jskrebs is offline
SaabNut!
 
Join Date: Jan 2010                                                
Location: Westport, Pa
My Saabs: 93 9K CSE, 85 900T 3dr
Posts: 262
Default

Well, Fixed the vacuum leak and installed a rebuilt Throttle Body.

Car runs fine, but

I still have TCS Crtl light.

Anybody have an ISAT for rent or borrow in central PA?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #15  
Old 29th February 2012
jskrebs jskrebs is offline
SaabNut!
 
Join Date: Jan 2010                                                
Location: Westport, Pa
My Saabs: 93 9K CSE, 85 900T 3dr
Posts: 262
Default

Been sleuthing my issue a bit.

Ran key on tests for TCS and I am not in LHM.

However

When I reset Trionic and start the car I get a CEL within seconds.

When I check this it is 5 flashes or TPS error.

If ETS passes Key on check, but still does not pass a good TPS signal to Trionic, well then, What the heck?

I cleaned all grounds, pulled the big connectors from the ECU's and cleaned them with contact cleaner ( they were pretty clean anyway) Checked power and ground to the ECU's.

What Next?

I am collecting parts to scrap TCS, but if I can fix it easy.................
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply

Bookmarks

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now

In order to be able to post messages on the SaabCentral Forums forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.
User Name:
If you do not want to register, fill this field only and the name will be used as user name for your post.
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
Password:
Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.
Email Address:

Log-in

Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.



Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
cold runnning slight miss /judder 2.0T chrisgsi 9-3 Sedan, Cabrio ('04+)/Combi & 9-3X Workshop 0 16th October 2011 02:41 PM
Still has a slight miss on highway 2000saab95 9-5 Workshop 7 17th February 2011 11:57 AM
2003 Aero slight stutter/miss fire chrisgsi 9-3 Sedan, Cabrio ('04+)/Combi & 9-3X Workshop 0 25th November 2010 05:09 PM
9-3 Tid error code p0314(miss fire) but don't have a miss fire Frenchington NG900 & OG9-3 Workshop 0 8th October 2010 08:49 AM
I miss my 9-3 already AirTreesWaterAnimals 9-3 Sedan, Cabrio ('04+)/Combi & 9-3X Workshop 4 13th March 2004 08:38 AM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 09:40 AM.



Powered by vBulletin® Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

top of page | sitemap | email us



copyright © 2003 - 2011 saabcentral.com, All rights reserved http://www.whiter.co.uk - valid xhtml - valid css
SaabCentral is an independently run website and is not affiliated in any way to Saab Automobile AB.


Garage Plus vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.