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Project Turbo Killer

6K views 34 replies 10 participants last post by  v4rallye 
#1 ·
I know have enough parts to start rebuilding the 'new' engine for my 99GL. All of the internals are going to be balanced tomorrow, crank, pistons/rods, aluminium flywheel, clutch cover and crank pulley (from a Saab 90).
I am just waiting for the flowed head with larger inlet valves and special catcam to arrive.
Although it will eventually have Jenvey throttle bodies, i will be running the engine in with the K-jetronic system that is fitted at present, when it's run in, 500 miles or so on good mineral oil, it will be run on 5/40 fully synthetic oil.
I have almost convinced myself that the engine management system will be megasquirt, mainly because of cost and the ease of use with the tuning software, i will probably opt for a wideband O2 sensor and maybe a knock detector.
Have a look at this link for the parts so far http://spaces.msn.com/dbsss/PersonalSpace.aspx?_c11_PhotoAlbum_spaHandler=TWljcm9zb2Z0LlNwYWNlcy5XZWIuUGFydHMuUGhvdG9BbGJ1bS5FZGl0TW9kZUNvbnRyb2xsZXI

The twin manifold is a spare i have, the misab manifold is with the head so it can
be matched.
 
#4 ·
Yes, it keeps coming up 'temperalily unavailable try later' i'll have alook at it.

I sussed the 90 pulley out sometime ago with Julian, when i decided to fit the later H type engine, we had concerns over the 900 pulley and came to the conclusion that you would have great difficulty changing the belt, then we looked at a 90 Julian had at the time, later H type in a 99 engine bay, voila, single belt narrow pulley. I did a search on parts conections and a dealer in southampton contacted with a price of £75 delivered, so i couldn't refuse :lol: .
I bought the flywheel from swedish dynamics in the states.
 
#6 ·
sonett1 said:
I sussed the 90 pulley out sometime ago with Julian, when i decided to fit the later H type engine, we had concerns over the 900 pulley and came to the conclusion that you would have great difficulty changing the belt, then we looked at a 90 Julian had at the time, later H type in a 99 engine bay, voila, single belt narrow pulley. I did a search on parts conections and a dealer in southampton contacted with a price of £75 delivered, so i couldn't refuse :lol: .
I bought the flywheel from swedish dynamics in the states.
Is this fitting in a 99 engine bay that previously had a B engine? - just what i was on about in my thread over the weekend! ;)

What are you doing with the water pump?
 
#7 ·
My 99 already has the early type H engine, but i know what you mean about the bulkhead on the early 99 if you want to fit any of the H type engines. I suppose you may only have two alternatives, either modify the bulkhead or fit an electric water pump. If you did go down the route of modifying the bulkhead, i think it would be easier to cut the section from a scrapped late 99 and graft it in to your early bulkhead, i know where there is a 99 that is being broken if you need that panel, it is easy to get at because the engine is out, but be quick the car will be going to the crusher soon.
 
#8 ·
sonett1 said:
i know where there is a 99 that is being broken if you need that panel, it is easy to get at because the engine is out, but be quick the car will be going to the crusher soon.
Is it local? and is it in a scrappy or at someones home/premises (so could i get power tools to it?, or loan something like a plasma cutter to remove it?)
 
#9 ·
I suupose it's quite local...........Rochdale.

Power is available, so it should be quite easy to remove. If you are still interested, let me know and i'll forward some details.
 
#10 ·
Just collected the 'rotating mass' from the engineering shop that did the balancing, i had everything balanced individually so if something was to break in the future i only need to replace and balance that part.

The rods were the worst, 7g and 19g had to be removed from two of them, the new '90' pulley didn't need to be touched, but everything else needed something removing.
Hopefully it will be a smooth engine and the idling won't be too bad with the special catcam :cheesy: .
 
#11 ·
Aluminium crank pulley with 36-1 toothed wheel

I know have my Aluminium crank pulley :cheesy: .
I have had it made in such a way that the toothed wheel for the megasquirt sits snug on a small lip. The wheel has 3 holes to fasten it to the pulley, i will wait until the engine is built and then line it up before i drill and tap the pulley itself.
The weight of the 90 OEM pulley is around 1.9kg, the aluminium pulley with the 5mm thick steel toothed wheel is 1.3kg.
Have a look here for pictures.....www.saabphotos.com/gallery/Project-Turbo-Killer
 
#12 ·
It's been a while since i've up dated this thread...........

Gearbox is now complete, it's a 5 speed from an '84 GL so it should have had an easy life, this proved to be true when i opened it up, the syncro's are good and there is no wear on the pinion and ring gear, i fitted a quaife ATB, steel back cover and a chillcast pinion housing.

I had a call from Dave Baker at Puma Race Engines, he has carried out some calculations on the valve train at my request as i was concerned about the buckets failing when at high revs, i have heard of quite a few engines doing this. Basically the valve train on the H & B series engine is quite heavy, the saab inlet valve weighs in at 94g, the inlet Dave has fitted to my engine weighs 80g and this has a thicker stem and a bigger head! It's a Ford CVH valve but it's made to Dave's specification. The Saab buckets weigh 95g, Puegeot buckets weigh 69g, these can be made to fit with a little work. If you fit the valves, inlet and exhaust, from Puma Racing and the pug buckets you will save 20% of the valve train weight.
Another odd thing about the Saab buckets is that they have a hole half way up side, no other bucket that we know of has this hole and is a prime candidate for a stress crack, in fact cracks have been seen around this area on highly revved engines.
These engines with standard valve gear should be safe to around 6700, but i would set the limiter to around 6400 ish, with all the new lighter parts a full race engine could be developed that should go to 7600 rpm.
My engine should produce peak power at around 6400-6500 rpm so i will need to take it to around 7000rpm.
 
#17 ·
Things are starting to happen again with this project, Dave Baker dropped the ported inlet manifold off the other day along with my new Catcam, the cylinderhead is almost complete, the 900 H series block is all built up and just waiting for the head to be fitted. I've been fiddling around with the crank sensor position, i think i have decided where to locate it, just need to make a sturdier bracket.

I had some spare time today so i fastened the jenveys/trumpets onto the manifold to check the finished length, clearance should be fine near the brake servo, this was my main concern about using the long trumpets, i have a total inlet tract lenght of around 415mm, obstructions are virtually zero, apart from the throttle itself.









A few pics of the Catcam, compared to the standard 99 cam.....



 
#18 ·
Where did the manifold you're using come from? I know of 4 sources for these...

I've seen the valve train on these blow up from high revs. Mostly its the cam carrier that shatters. Dual valve springs will let you rev up to 8000-8500 rpm. I've got dual valve springs and a modified cam in one of my B engines and I've had it up to 8000 many times! :D
 
#20 ·
geoffc said:
Where did the manifold you're using come from? I know of 4 sources for these...

I've seen the valve train on these blow up from high revs. Mostly its the cam carrier that shatters. Dual valve springs will let you rev up to 8000-8500 rpm. I've got dual valve springs and a modified cam in one of my B engines and I've had it up to 8000 many times! :D
This one is a genuine Misab, obviously, it's from Sweden, but no longer produced, it's one of the best that was available.
The cam carrier will probably shatter, but more than likely the buckets went first, standard valve train on B and H series engine is good for around 6500rpm, more than that and your into your share of luck!
The parts are really heavy and the bucket with the holes in is a failure waiting to happen on a high revving engine, the Saab buckets weigh 95g, peugeot 205 GTI buckets weigh 69g, standard valves weigh 94g, the special 46mm valves i will be using on my EMS head weigh 80g and these are physically bigger, the stem is even thicker, these are OK with the uprated rally 205 GTI spring also, no need for duplex valves, of course using these parts means that you no longer have shims, but lash caps.

I would be very interested to see a power/torque curve for your engine, do you have a dyno graph?
 
#23 ·
sonett1 said:
This one is a genuine Misab, obviously, it's from Sweden, but no longer produced, it's one of the best that was available.
The cam carrier will probably shatter, but more than likely the buckets went first, standard valve train on B and H series engine is good for around 6500rpm, more than that and your into your share of luck!
The parts are really heavy and the bucket with the holes in is a failure waiting to happen on a high revving engine, the Saab buckets weigh 95g, peugeot 205 GTI buckets weigh 69g, standard valves weigh 94g, the special 46mm valves i will be using on my EMS head weigh 80g and these are physically bigger, the stem is even thicker, these are OK with the uprated rally 205 GTI spring also, no need for duplex valves, of course using these parts means that you no longer have shims, but lash caps.

I would be very interested to see a power/torque curve for your engine, do you have a dyno graph?
I don't think we got peugeot 205s here in the US, it would be nice to source some of the valvetrain parts or get some lightweight buckets and components made. A guy I know had some custom titanium buckets made for his V4.

The MSS dual valve springs along with a cam allows for the engine to rev to 8500rpm without damaging the carrier. The 8500 rev limit is actually for the B engine because the auxiliary shaft hits a harmonic at 8500 and will break, yuck. Plenty of engines have been built with these components and run that high, but it would be nice to have a lightweight valvetrain for more reliability, power, etc. The shattered carriers I've seen have been on stock, over-revved heads. I've seen them just break the carriers and break both the buckets and the carriers so from my viewpoint it looks like the buckets would hold the high rpms and the carriers shatter but yes they are too heavy and probably should be upgraded.

I don't have a dyno sheet for the car, I've been only midly curious. The car is used for rally so reliability, high rpms, and a little more power are the main focal points for the engine. The head has stock valves with dual valve springs, a cam, and an adjustable cam gaer. The engine has flat top pistons from an aircooled VW. I recently picked up a new head with 44.5mm intake valves and 37mm exhaust valves, dual valve springs, and a high output cam. I'll be putting that either on a new engine I have (if I can diagnose a problem with it) that has flat top pistons or rebuilding the old engine and putting the head on it.

With the lash caps, how will you adjust the valves? I'll be interested to see what this engine turns out like, how much power, torque, etc. Are you running an exhaust header?
 
#24 ·
There is no need to go through the expense of having followers made, the Peugeot followers are well up to the job.

I had the complete valve train properly assessed by a professional engine builder, 6500rpm was the ultimate safe limit of the components, above this and it's lottery time, even if it is acedemic once you get this far into tuning it's not worth taking chances and ruining a potentially expensive engine.

I asked about a dyno sheet beacause i was interested in the width of the power band and torque, revving to 8500rpm is OK but if your power peaks at say 7500rpm it's pretty pointless.
The MSS cams are OK, but these are regrinds, if you want to really optimise your headwork fit a catcam, these are new cams from blanks.(see earlier photo's, the metal just isn't there on a standard cam to get the best profile)

With the lash caps you have to keep milling the surface to get your clearance, but it will stay in spec for at least 30-50k miles depending on use.
The cam for this engine has been chosen with caution, it will be a road car, but the throttle bodies may prove so good that i could go up with the cam.
I am using a header from MSS.

The head being developed for my EMS will have 46mm valves and a much wilder duration than the GL. If you use the parts i mentioned you will save 20% of the valve train weight.
 
#25 ·
I can't see the photos of your cam, they're probably blocked by the server I'm on at work, I'll have to remember to look from home.

Do you know what kind of work has to be done to make the Pug buckets fit? I'd want to know what I was getting into before trying to source some and have them shipped over the Atlantic.

I think I'm running the 4200 to 7500 cam right now. The reason for sometimes going higher than that is that is makes no sense to shift up when I only have a few seconds before getting to the next corner and needing to lift anyway.

Is there a website for catcams? All I can find on the internets is webcams of kitties. :)

Adjusting the valves using the lash caps sounds like a real pain. Not that doing it with the box of shims is much easier...
 
#26 ·
It's probably your companies server, the pics are still showing.

The Pug buckets are the same external dimensions as the Saab buckets, from memory the head of the Saab bucket is about 3.4mm thicker than the Pug one, hence the need for lash caps. The valves on my UBV head a re special ford CVH valves, the stems are thicker so the guides need to be opened out, also they are much longer than the Saab valves, so they can be machined for height etc.
Have a look at www.catcams.be
Adjusting the lash caps can be tedious, but a 20% weight saving on the valve train is worth it, although you could have those titanium followers made, but dollar for dollar, i know what i would i choose.
 
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