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Help With 900S Convertible

9K views 118 replies 12 participants last post by  LennyD 
#1 ·
Hi all first post here, and hope I do not dupe any questions etc.

Just purchased my first Saab, and this site has been very helpful (thanks to all!) but I have a few questions that I could not find answers to.

It is a NG900S Convertible with just over 100K. I did get it at a fair price, and it seems to be pretty solid mechanically, has a good interior etc etc, but like many others it does have it's little problems :)

First Q is just what to do about the rain filter that Saab calls a roof? Of course the seller claimed it did not have any leaks so I did not give it any thought until the first drive after it had rained over night. It was leaking from the rails or channels of the roof on both sides.

I did apply a water proofing spray on it (3m scotch guard) and cleaned it up etc, but should I expect that to do anything? Are there any popular places for water to penetrate the roof?

By the third day of having it the trans mount let go. It was not an expensive or difficult repair (thankfully) but now you can feel a seriously annoying vibration in the cabin. Any ideas on this? Also note that i had read some place on the net that the aftermarket mounts were "mushy" so I had added a custom cut piece of vacuum hose (maybe fuel line not sure lol) to the half moon shaped opening. Could this have anything to do with it, or would it be a waste of time to take it apart and remove it, and would be better trying to locate the cause of the vibration instead of the possible lack of it being absorbed by the mount?

There are more like the roof not wanting to complete the up or down process without some help, and stuff with the SID, and more, but maybe I should ask if it is preferred to separate into different threads, or just jumble them all together in one?

Thanks in advance for your help!
 
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#77 · (Edited)
The SID in a vert is different than the one in other styles, and I think you replaced your SID with a unit from a closed car. Some owners have done this as their way of getting rid of the annoying 'ding dong, check latches' message.
As for locking the 5th bow to the tonneau, you can use the method described by 'flyhop'. On the underside of the tonneau, there is a mechanism powered by a 12v DC reversible motor which locks/unlocks the 5th bow. This is accessible when the tonneau is in the raised position. There is a connnector about 10 inches away from the motor. There wires from that connector go to another connector that is accessible from the luggage compartment. This is the connector that flyhop used. The connections for the 5th bow latches, I think, are 8 and 9, (numbered on the connector). This connector can be found on the left side, just left of that bar with the spring around it. Applying power and ground to 8 and 9 will latch or unlatch the 5th bow, depending on the polarity of the connection. I don't remember the detail. Or, you can access these wires at the control unit in the luggage compt using the wire colors described by rls120. Search flyhop and read his thread. A touch contact should be anough. Don't keep power connected for longer than a second or two or you might burn out the motor.
 
#78 ·
LennyD;2204234. At first I remembered reading something about older SID units not being programmed for everything etc but then also had a scary memory from when the diagnostic guy was here and had said "good luck getting it to work". At first I took that at face value said:
I don't think that anything was 'purposely messed with'.
The following is from the Saab WIS and applies to verts that have the SID of the type installed in verts.

If the soft top is lowered while the ignition is on, or is down when the ignition is turned on, the TSAS control module will send a signal to the SID , which in turn will send the 'top open' signal to the ACC control module. The signal is sent from pin 11 (K42) on the TSAS control module to pin 5 on the SID.
 
#80 ·
I'm not sure if I follow you question exactly... but the bag's only function is to hold the open roof. The only reason there are "bag switches" is that they want to make sure that the bag is not hooked up in the "maximum trunk space" position and/or there's nothing in the trunk like a box that would keep the roof from moving into the bag properly. You could actually short the bag switches and as long as the bag was always down, the roof would work fine.

I don't think you could have damaged anything by moving the roof with the bag not down. Confused the computer maybe, but not damaged anything.
 
#81 ·
Basically what happened was that I was short on time and in a rush (not unusual lately but not how I prefer things etc) and in the excitement of possibly figuring out a way to at least lower the 5th bow so it could seal against the tonneau and stop leaking back into th car when it rains etc I just grabbed my leads and a spare motorcycle type battery and put the power to the two wires. When nothing happened in either polarity etc I then thought about the switches in the bag and disconnecting the plug so that power would be going to the motor only and not also to the source that normally powers it.

If I fried anything I know its my fault for not waiting for when I had more time, but I needed to make an appointment and the boat was being a pain and took a lot longer than usual as the outdrive was not cooperating and was a bear to get installed etc.

Hope I didn't mess up either but bad as Saab parts may be they are a bargain compared to most things marine lol.

I do not have an electrical diagram for the car so I have no idea where the leads to the plug come from and if applying 12 CDC to it could create a problem.

I guess if the switches for the bag position tell the system to stop power to the lock of the 5th bow there is a chance the leads could come from a switch or some sort of module etc but again I really do not know the system and since the car was not on or running it may just have been a dead lead and that would explain slight small spark that was like a completed circuit etc.

Maybe I was just once again allowing the car to get the best of me lol.
 
#82 · (Edited)
The wires to the 5th bow latch come directly from the TSAS control unit which is located behind the trim in the 'trunk' on the left side. It is marked ASC for American Sunroof Company. All of the info from microswitches, pots, latches and manual swiches goes into that TSAS box and all the power to operate the system comes out of that box.
I don't understand how you applied power to the wires w/o disconnecting the wires as disconnecting is the easy and quick way to get access to a bare metal terminal to apply power.
Somewhere in a earlier thread of rls120 I provided a reference to a wiring diagram for the vert top system. There is one in WIS, but I've never been able to view or copy it because of some glitch.
 
#83 ·
It was easy as I have two sets of wires with thin needles attached to them. One is for testing power, resistance, etc and the other to power up etc.

The one for testing I made so the ends attach right onto the metal ends if a multi meter and lets get into some really tight spots.

Maybe I better pick up a TSAS just in case.
 
#84 · (Edited)
No one in a salvage yard is going to know what a TSAS is, and I doubt that you need one, anyway. But TSAS stands for something like Top Stack Actuating System. Anyway, it is the box containg the 'brain' for the soft top system. All the soft top sensors feed info into it, and it controls power outputs to the motors that make things move.
After you disconnected the wires to the latch motor, did you use the needles thru the wires, or did you contact the disconnected terminals?
 
#85 ·
Appreciate the heads up on the tsas etc.

I was planning on finding a pull your own yard (more fun anyhow lol) but had to cancel due to the bad weather.

Figured since I would be in the trunk may as well get any of the parts there or actually any other parts the donor car had that I might need etc.

Will have to wait till next week and hopefully have better weather.

And since you mentioned it most of the yards that are not pull yourself that o know of are not as knowledgeable as you would like, many are somehow clueless (not all lol) and prices typically are not impressive as at least th local ones I know base prices on new OEM and then discount to arrive at a selling point, and anyone who has been around and can access new parts (I know not Saab) for 20-35% off will not find buying used at 50% off any kind of value.

I have three places within a reasonable drive and except for one who on occasion will have a fair price on certain parts I have just ordered online for small stuff, and even have had new windshields installed for less than these guys wanted used.

Sorry for the rant but that stuff just bugs me lol.
 
#86 ·
On the way I got to the wires.

I just carefully push the needle type leads into the back of the plug where the wires are crimped. If your lucky there is just enough room in the plug that it will help hold the first one in place so you have two hands to get the second one on, and also many plugs are made so that each wire going in has its own little pocket and therefore you can not easily make the POS and NEG come into contact with each other.

Seems to work pretty well.
 
#87 ·
I know its been a while since any update etc, and I am also aware I have missed plenty of very nice "top down" days as well, but I have finally found time to get back to my roof problem and have some new info and questions.

Since I was not able to find any verts at the yards I did manage to visit and still could not come to terms with spending nearly $200 on a new potentiometer I was finally able to persuade an eBay seller to part out one from a tonneau cover motor he was selling.

It is installed now though not plugged in (I am fairly sure I have it in correct position too) as I wanted to be sure there was a chance of it even working without a roof reprogramming, and if I needed to use the original SID that was used with the convertible etc?

I am not so much expecting to get lucky and avoid the hour plus labor at th dealer as much as I want to be sure to vet it right etc and just avoid any more mistakes.

Also does anyone know what reading I might expect to get if I run a multi meter on this thing? I believe its a good one, the seller claims it was working, but I just would like to be able to test it to be sure.

I know when the "guru" was here we were able to pin point the potentiometer as being faulty from the lack of change in voltage when turning it etc, but I have no idea of what readings it should be sending back ti the system. Just in case it is bad the seller offers a two week return window and I am not sure it can get to the dealer in time or not, and I also do not want to present the car for a reprogram with a bad sensor either.

Maybe with a little luck (and a few hundred more lol) I will finally get this roof straightened out and can move on to the other things it could use.
 
#89 ·
Bob that was one fast reply lol. Thanks!

That does make sense, and I also remembered that guy who reset everything too so I am going to make an appointment with the local dealer if I can not find an Indie with the techII locally on Monday.

My remaining fear is that I could have purchased a bad potentiometer and then will be throwing away more money when the dealer can't reprogram the roof etc.

I remember from when the guy was here with the techII we measured the voltage on the old unit and it would increase until Turing it about half way and then drop off to zero (proving it was damaged etc) so I hooked up the multi meter to see if this one would read across the entire range etc.

Well thankfully it did have a reading through the entire range, but I have no idea what kind of readings I want to be seeing.

Since the previous one was bad I don't have anything to compare with, and also I ha e no idea if it is supposed to be reading high at one end and low at the other (that's what I believe it should be based on what I saw inside my broken one) and since this one seems to read highest in the exact middle of the range a nd then slowly lower towards both stop points I am a little concerned.

So I guess my question is if there is any way to know what values should be read (in DC V or resistance ) when. Reading the output leads on the potentiometer, or even how they should read???????

Since the sensor is only a small disc with two small electrodes at one end etc it would seem that the resistance or drop in voltage should continue to change as the disc turns and separate the contacts more and more etc.

Any ideas are welcome and really want to be sure I didn't buy a dud lol.
 
#90 ·
Reading across the two end contacts I get about 10 ohms. Reading one end and the center wiper, I get a varying rate from 0 to 10 ohms.

Sounds like yours is defective unless you're measuring in some odd way. The one I have is a spare - I'd sell it to you for a reasonable offer if you need it to get your car going. PM me if you're interested.
 
#91 ·
I am going to test again and see what I get because I tested it plugged in and did both ohm and volts and honestly do not recall the values. This was because I was looking for the smooth change my previous one did not have from being broken.

I did also disassemble my old one and it does appear that it would be a loop. Meaning that the distance or resistance would reach a furthest or largest point from the pick up and supply so I believe the low to high and back again reading I got would make sense. Again I will check this again in ohms and post back.

I may be interested in your spare anyhow just so I don't waste time and money with trying to program a bad sensor again.
 
#92 ·
Definitely test it disconnected.

I've never see a POT that didn't have high resistance at one extreme and low a the other. In terms of physics, that's the only thing that makes sense: the center contact is a wiper, the resistance material has a fixed value per length... the further you are from the starting point (one end) the higher the resistance. It's possible to create what you described but it would be very unusual.
 
#93 ·
I did check again and am finding just above 5 ohms but need to remove it so I can re check the values as it is being turned yet. Hope to get a chance before the night is over.

I had thought 5 ohm was good being it is marked 5kohm right on the part?
 
#95 ·
Not 100% but I thought u had read the ng900 & 9-3 used the same sensor when I was researching what models it could be pulled from at the salvage yard.

I hope I can confirm the reading I should be getting before I end up with a problem not being able to program the roof etc.

I am going to remove it in a few min and test it again
..
 
#96 ·
Well with it removed I couldn't duplicate the reading I got previous and have no idea why or wtf I did different then.

I am getting. 70 and smoothly up to 5.40 ohms when turning.


Now just to figure if this is a good range.

Any thoughts on the 5 v 10 ohm issue??
 
#97 ·
I can't tell you... this is the only one I've ever measured. Could be that either is valid and the computer just needs to be set to know the values.

If yours black or red? Does the color match the one you have? I've heard that the black ones were trouble (doesn't mean it's true :).
 
#98 ·
Bob, thanks for all your help.

Now this red/black pot thing has me thinking.

I have two black ones, and originally thought they were the older or problem ones, BUT I am pretty sure I had that backwards and am sort of remembering a service bulletin I had read advising that the red ones were the problem ones and they needed to be brought to the dealer for replacement.

Also if memory serves me correctly the red was used until late 95 or early 96 and then it was replaced in production by the black ones. This of course was on the ng900 and I have no idea if the color or whole part was changed with the intro of the 9-3.

I will try to find the bulletin as I think I printed it out for my ever growing Saab info files :)
 
#101 ·
moisture in the trunk

hi
with the moisture or water in the trunk?
Have u tried cleaning the hose tubes in the convertible hood trunk bag. If you raise the roof until the tonneau cover is vertical. Stop. while the tonneau is in that position, look in the convertible bag holder. There are 2 tubes on either side of the car near the roof mechanism roughly at the back of the rear windows. They go from the cover bag to the front of the rear wheels underneath the car. If they are blocked with leaves and crap, water will flow into the boot.(trunk). Stick a brush cleaner or whatever down there untill they are cleared. To make sure they are cleared stick a hose down there untill water flows from the tubes to the front of the rear wheels. This happened to me. who would have thought?
Have a look. Anything could happen after 17 years.
cheers and good luck. I had a lot of trouble with my car, after much much frustration, trial and error it turned out to be blocked tubes in the roof bag and badly aligned windows caused by broken window regulators ( the green round ones and the vert model has two extra ones, they are black, attached to the window glass and the metal window runner in the door . they are really important, and they cost about $6 for the two. Who would have thought.
to be honest I doubt whether your leek is from the canvas roof.
anyway
good luck.
By the way , once you have sorted your car out, it will be spring,drop the roof , put on your favourite music and head down the highway. Finally it will all be worth it. Trust me.
An old car is a hobby. Otherwise go and buy a new Audi A4 for $74K
cheers
Grey cloud
 
#102 ·
Well actually I likely have some restriction in the driver side tonneau drain since when it rains really hard I do get some moisture in that side of the trunk, and there was a small amount that had collected in the bottom of the bag on that side when I first got the car.

The problem that I was addressing in the thread though was different and was going directly into the passenger area.

The formula 303 did stop it though.

Any idea where tghd drains empty out? I was going to blow air through them previously but then had the problem with not being able to raise or lower the top. I am still planning on cleaning them out soon as I get the top working again. :)
 
#103 ·
Tried to update last night, but phone crashed when I went to post pics.

Anyhow I had a little free time and thought this whole thing through and decided that since everything was bolted up again with the new potentiometer and the guy who took the $100 from me all pissed off he wanted $250 for not being able to do what I wanted had at least cleared any vert codes etc that I would plug in all the missing plugs, throw in my orig vert SID and see what happens.

OMG it actually started moving, and kept moving until it was fully open and the tonneau locked into place.

Wow was I feeling lucky (OK maybe even a little smart maybe but mostly lucky) and all kinds of other good things lol.

Well I am not used to this type of thing happening so I cycled at least four times and everything worked like it should.

Oddly after I decided to take a star lit ride to get some late eats about mid way through dinner it decides to start pouring, but hey I just pushed the button and closed the top. It got some rain inside but I was still on a high from the thing working in the first place :)

Today was another beautiful fall day with temps in the high 70's so dropped the top and went for a nice ride. Wow how solid the car sounds with the top down and no rattles.

I wanted to put the top up at a stop I made and would you believe it starts acting up again. Tonneau went up fine 5th bow went to action, top raised and went down to front latches, and tonneau dropped smoothly without issue, but then my nightmare returns.

Well that's a little harsh but as the 5th bow starts to lower the tonneau begins chattering and then top stops.

I didn't believe it. The thing worked fine, and now still did except it starts its chattering trying to lock down!!!

Did my luck change lol.

Was a cold ride home, and am heading back out to see what's going on now, and will update etc, but any ideas are once again welcome!
 
#104 ·
Well at first I was like :) because it was a long time since was able to do this (first pic)

But then for some reason the motor drive on the tonneau would not stop chattering when closing the tonneau, but only upon closing the top. It was not doing it when opening the top.

I did manage to get it to close completely and without any chatter etc, but it required a special hi tech mod and it doesnt look right :) (pic 2).

Any ideas?
 

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#105 ·
John would you believe that back in the spring the motor was pulled and then bent back (this one was obviously bent too) and it had been used only the few times I just described above before starting to act up.

Could it really have re twisted itself so quickly?

I mean the first 5 or so times it cycled when I tested it everything was so smooth I couldn't believe it.

If it had not gone so smoothly for those times I would be thinking re program as well, but with how good it was I am leaning more towards either the bracket it mountain on being bent or maybe when I installed it the arm for the tonneau that bolts to the gear drive may have been off by one tooth forward and the system is thinking it need to continue another small amount when locking tonneau down and that put force onto the motor that was enough to bend it again.

Does that make sense?

I have read the switch thread several times and almost did it, but figured that since all the parts are good and I thought it needed a $100 ish reprogram that it just did not make sense to not do it right only to save $50-$60 etc.

Likely won't have time to mess with it for a little but I think I am going to pull it out one more time, straighten it, and be real careful about where the arm is mounting in relation to the tonneau position.

Another thought I had is that I may just attempt to use the small amount of adjustment on the sensor on the gear drive (the one I replaced).

If all else fails I will just fabricate a damn bracket to mount to the existing bracket to hold down the motor. Really don't want to and the motor feels tight ti the gear not lime it did when I first got it.
 
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