Albert's Red Rocket [Archive] - SaabCentral Forums

: Albert's Red Rocket


Albert Trout
10-10-06, 03:50 PM
I'll follow the trend, and use Daniels format :cheesy: And yes, I have seen that episode of South Park..


Goal

In a word uncertain. Ar first I was just looking for a little bit more oomph, but it's starting to spiral out of control. Now I'm probably looking to have a car with round about 250-270bhp, with whatever torque figure that brings. As with Daniel, smoothness and driveablilty is important to me. To me the best thing about Saab's is the mid-range performance, and that's the way I want to keep it.

The Car

Pictures will follow. Still can't believe I've never got round to taking any.
1992 Red T16S, bought just over a year ago. Full Aero/SPG body kit, with, vitally, for me, whaletail spoiler. 15 inch curly aeros, which I stripped and repainted due to a bit of corrosion. Paintwork's pretty good, bottom of the doors are pretty bad, but structurally, the beast is pretty tidy.

Specs

Modded APC. The car came with a red-box, and I've never got round to doing the full 900aero modification. All I did was swap the F-pot out for a 1kohm resistor, turned it to 700ohms, gave it a quarter turn of the P-pot, and after a test drive, didn't see the need to change anything. Still very happy with it.

Alloy FMIC - 3" Core

2.1 Intake & 2.3 head

RBM Performance T3/T4 - 50L Trim 0.6 A/R - WWHHHHoooooossshhhhh!!!

JT 3" Downpipe - Didn't move the battery for this one. Bought a slimlineRed Top battery which fits in nicley where the stock battery is. Quicker spool up with the turbo, with the added advantage of a lovely sound. Oh, and extra power.

FSE Powerboost Valve - Very easy swap for the stock beastie, and noticed a big difference during the transition to boost. Had a bit of a flat spot going into boost, which I wasn't a fan of, and this sorted it right out. A lot of people have had problems with pressure variations with this, but I keep a close eye on it, and haven't had any issues with it.

ITG Air Filter - Didn't notice any difference in power, but does make a nicer noise, and I also noticed the car was a good bit smoother at very low speeds in traffic

Future Plans

MegaSquirt - I'm hoping this will make a big difference to off-boost performance. Don't think I'll see huge differences on boost, but I do hope I also see some gains here as well. Planning on triggering from the hall sensor through the ignition module

Exhaust - Not mad keen on the exhaust being too loud, but I am keen on Carlsson twin pipes. Leaving any work on that until the current one's goosed.

Gearbox - Fingers crossed....

Rust - Fixing rust bores me. Currently sticking my fingers in my ears, shouting "lalalalalaa" and hoping it all goes away. Nothing serious there anyway.

Albert Trout
10-10-06, 03:53 PM
Pictures of the mods so far.

FMIC

http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f144/albertrtrout/FMIC006.jpg

http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f144/albertrtrout/FMIC007.jpg

http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f144/albertrtrout/inletmanifold.jpg

Albert Trout
10-10-06, 03:54 PM
And ze downpipe


http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f144/albertrtrout/Downpipe001.jpg

http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f144/albertrtrout/Downpipe002.jpg

IronJoe
10-10-06, 04:12 PM
Looks great Albert!

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/8/8a/507_cartman_redrocket.gif/200px-507_cartman_redrocket.gif

DavidMorgan
10-10-06, 04:16 PM
I have to come over here to see what you are up to..
You are keeping yourself busy. She will really move..
As some of them say "outstanding"
Cheers.

woywitka
04-11-06, 06:21 PM
looks good!

how does a 1992 car have so much corrosion tho!:o

Albert Trout
05-11-06, 06:21 PM
looks good!

how does a 1992 car have so much corrosion tho!:o

haha. Because the west of Scotland is relentlessy wet, and even though we don't get that much snow & ice it's often very close to it, so the roads are salty & soaking for at least 4 months a year :cry: Horizontal rain + 2 or 3 degrees above freezing = Glasgow winter.

Albert Trout
18-11-06, 09:01 AM
Been at the Scottish Rolling Road day today, and was pleasantly surprised by my run. I was mainly wanting to get an idea of what the car was doing before MeagSquirt-ing it, and also wanted to check on my fuelling, which is fine, as it turns out (Si & Daniel - Get that fuelling squirted ASAP:cheesy: ) So, 195.8bhp at the wheels, 221.1 at the crank and 225.7 lb/ft of torque. Quite chuffed really. Although, if you haven't had your car dynoed before, I warn you that it is a very loud, and, when it's your car on the rollers, quite a scary experience

http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f144/albertrtrout/Dyno2.jpg

http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f144/albertrtrout/Dyno1.jpg

Can't see run 1 on the graph due to the flash from the camera. Pretty much the same as run 2 anyway.

Si
18-11-06, 09:14 AM
(Si & Daniel - Get that fuelling squirted ASAP:cheesy: )

Ignition first;) hut hum!

Nice curve, looks like fueling and boost are pretty rock solid, bit chilly aswell, 11.4 degree's:) .

Albert Trout
18-11-06, 11:00 AM
Aye, everything seemed to work really well. Cars been running great for ages, touch wood. Only dissapointment was the lack of 900's at the RR. One T8, my T16, and hunners of Fiat Cro..sorry 9000's.

11.4 degrees, in Scotland, in November? The Red Rocket won't have to deal with hot air like that again for 4 months :cheesy:

Albert Trout
18-11-06, 11:21 AM
For future reference, if anyone uses the same sensors for MegaSquirt as me, I've just done a bit of testing for calibration. Would be useful for making sure your NTC sensor's working as well.

NTC (Coolant temp): 8.2C - 3880 ohms 69C - 479 ohms 98.2C - 208 ohms

9000 Air Intake Temp: 8C - 4100 ohms 34.3C - 1610 ohms 75.3C - 480 ohms

Matthew
16-12-06, 10:36 PM
Is the Lucas TPS compatible without modifications with Megasquirt?

What sort of trigger wheel you installing?

Wideband? Permanent or temporary?

:cheesy:

Saab-Daniel
17-12-06, 10:25 AM
The lucas-tps should work without modifications yes... :)
Daniel.

Albert Trout
18-12-06, 05:27 AM
Is the Lucas TPS compatible without modifications with Megasquirt?

What sort of trigger wheel you installing?

Wideband? Permanent or temporary?

:cheesy:

As Daniel says, the Lucas TPS is compatible. Any variable resistor type TPS is. You just wire it up to Megasquirt, then there's a "Configure TPS" option in the software. Closed throttle, click OK, fully open throttle, click OK, and the job's a good 'un.

I'm now going to be triggering off the Hall sensor. I was going to use a trigger wheel, but I can't see how to mount that and the VR sensor without lifting the engine, which I simply don't want to do. I've got all the wiring done, but due to the weather, the short days and a lack of courage, I've not been able to get it going. Got Christmas to New Year off this year, so I'm planning on doing it then. The only issue's with the igntion module. I was wanting Megasquirt to drive the coil directly, but I have to retain the Module as the Lucas (& the Bosch ECU's) get the RPM signal from Pin 7 on it. It's a really rare module on the Lucas cars, so I'm not even certain it'll work without some mods to the MS unit itself, hence the wait until the Xmas holidays, as it's a daily driver. Basically, the quicker I can get fuelling as well the better, as I can get shot of the module, and the set-up wil actually be a bit simpler overall.

The wideband will be going in permanently.

Albert Trout
09-01-07, 10:22 AM
Well, I was about to install MS over the Xmas holidays, when I discovered that the headgasket was leaking. Very annoying, but after some thought planned to replace it, with my Dad's assistance and garage space, on Sunday just passed. Then last Thursday I woke up at 4am with quite an alarming stomach pain, and 12 hours later was coming out of an operating theatre one appendix short of the full, useless, quota and am not allowed to lift anything heavier than a coke can for 6 weeks. As these things usually come in threes, I am now scared to leave the house in case I'm struck by lightning. Come to think of it, I'm not allowed to leave the ****ing house for another week and a half anyway.

I can report that I replaced the 9000IC with an E-bay type special before Christmas. Same dimensions as Daniels. Little bit more laggy than the 9000, which I assume's down to the far bigger volume of the core, but I was very happy with the additional performance. Like all the good mods, the engine just seems under a little less strain, even though it's actually putting out more zang.

Bawheid
09-01-07, 12:00 PM
Bit of a drastic way to improve the power to weight ratio albert but i admire your dedication :D.

DanF.
09-01-07, 10:57 PM
wish you and the car best of luck, and a speedy recovery

Albert Trout
15-01-07, 10:20 AM
Ohh, I'm so bored sitting about the house with nothing to do.

I've decided to take the car to a mechanic to get the head gasket done, as I don't want to wait until I am fit and the weather's good enough. Could be a couple of months. The guy's really good, Saltire Motors in Bonnybridge for locals. My idle hands have aquired a 2.3head, bought new in '98 with 50,000 miles on it, and a 2.1 intake from the US of A, so I'll book the car in when they arrive.

Other parts I've bought over the last couple of months - Bosch 803 injectors (Brand new, and an absolute steal on the bay), Forge Atmos BOV, K&N Apollo induction kit (another e-baytastic deal), and I am currently looking into buying a Trim 60. So hopefully by mid-summer, the Red Rocket will be squirting it's way around Glasgow with all planned engine mods in place :cheesy:

Albert Trout
02-02-07, 11:58 AM
Got the car back yesterday. And I now have a 2.3 head and 2.1 intake. I also got new springs put on the rear. I didn't think the springs were that bad, but they've made a big difference in ride quality, and the handling's also a bit sharper. I can also stop worrying about the 16's rubbing, the rear looks like it's on stilts.

The new head and intake don't make as a huge difference to performance as some other mods, but you can definitely feel the extra power up the revs. Thought I might notice a bit of loss of torque low down, but if there is a drop it's not at all obvious. Think they will come into their own when I get MS going, and a new turbo. Pictures will follow at the weekend, although the rocker cover is unchanged. Only problem the guy had was the FPR bracket needed adjusting to get the RRFPR to fit properly.

Bawheid
03-02-07, 07:26 AM
Goodstuff Albert, bills a great man to know one of the best about i reckon and knows a thing or too about fast cars. Cant wait to see it, ill come over when im back from Aus for a look.

Honkey
03-02-07, 08:44 AM
These kind of threads really make me want a turbo saab :cry:


Can we pretty please get some more pictures? I wanna see the beast in some good quality pics!

Bawheid
03-02-07, 08:51 AM
Ive got a vid of your car on the RR albert ill try to post it sometime.

Honkey hows the weather in Sydney will be flying out there tomorrow morning :cheesy:

Honkey
03-02-07, 09:45 AM
the weather is fine, I think it'll be around 25C tomorrow, perfect conditions for fixing a saab :cool:

Where abouts are you staying in sydney?

Bawheid
03-02-07, 12:22 PM
Staying in an apartment 5 mins from Bondi beach for the first 10 days then we're off touring for the next ten in an RV :D

Albert Trout
03-02-07, 06:51 PM
These kind of threads really make me want a turbo saab :cry:


Can we pretty please get some more pictures? I wanna see the beast in some good quality pics!

I'll get some pictures up tomorrow. Not got a digital camera, mainly because I'll just lose it.

Enjoy Oz Bawheid. If you see Babula, ask him about getting thrown out the SCG for winding up the Barmy Army. Twice :cheesy:

Matthew
04-02-07, 07:09 AM
Albert, I'd be interested to hear how that Red Top battery is performing, especially in the cold weather (I trust it's colder in Scotland than it is down here in the softy South ;)).

Albert Trout
04-02-07, 08:15 AM
Albert, I'd be interested to hear how that Red Top battery is performing, especially in the cold weather (I trust it's colder in Scotland than it is down here in the softy South ;)).

It's not missed a beat Matthew. I know a couple of others have had problems, but I've had no issues with it at all. I don't have an immobiliser or alarm, so parasitic load is minimal. Being off the last few weeks it's often been left for a few days, and any journeys I have taken have been really short, and like I say, no problems. Glasgow doesn't actually get that cold very often though. Just rain. Lots and lots of rain. You'll probably find it's colder, more often, in your neck of the woods during winter:D

Albert Trout
04-02-07, 11:25 AM
Got round to taking some pictures this afternoon. Cars not been washed properly in 2 months, but it looks OK. You can also see the IC poking out. Got some hollow wall fixing to strap the air dam on properly, which I've not been able to do yet. ****ing appendicitis :evil:

http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f144/albertrtrout/IMG_0471.jpg

http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f144/albertrtrout/mable.jpg

Albert Trout
04-02-07, 11:26 AM
And pictures of the "new" head in situ

http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f144/albertrtrout/IMG_0469.jpg

http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f144/albertrtrout/IMG_0468.jpg

ShadowWorks
04-02-07, 12:46 PM
Oh man, you have been busy with all those mods;)

The red looks nice and glossy and it seems you got the 16 inch aeros, how come you never posted your FMIC in this thread or your JT install.

Get that video of you on the rolling road on Youtube, lets see it in action legally:lol:

Albert Trout
20-04-07, 03:48 AM
Got a new (to me) turbo from RBM through e-bay. There's 12,000miles on it. It's a T3/T4 Trim 50L. The advert said that they would also provide a new wastegate actuator with it. It must have got pretty bashed up in the post.....

http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f144/albertrtrout/IMG_0631.jpg

http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f144/albertrtrout/IMG_0633.jpg

Matthew
20-04-07, 04:19 AM
Is that RBM Performance in France?

Pester them for a new wastegate actuator :evil:

How much air does the new turbo shift then? Any idea on spool-up etc?

Albert Trout
20-04-07, 04:41 AM
Yeah, RBM in France. I'm terrible at stuff like that. It's in pretty good nick, so I'll just mention it in the feedback.

It shifts hunners of air :cheesy: Over 40lb/min, it's rated up to 2bar and it'll support 360Bhp, but my plan is to run much lower boost than I am just now. Probably back to 10-12psi and about 250-260 at the crank. I may have the funds for a gearbox round about October time, so having the option of upping the power quite easily is important. The injectors I have, for when I get round to MS (Shut it Daniel) are also good for over 300, so I'll hopefully have all my bases covered but MS is, obviously, vital to implementing all of the above.

It will probably be pretty laggy on the stock ignition. A/R of .60 is pretty high for our engines. I'm hoping MS & some APC tweaking will help with this but it's isn't a big concern for me. The rise rate on my APC is set pretty low as I do loads of driving in town and I actually quite like not having any boost low down. It's almost like having two cars in one :D

Saab-Daniel
20-04-07, 05:12 AM
Struggling..... can't.... shut.... it...... more.......
ALBERT! Get round to MS NOW!!!!! :cool:

Indeed spool-up will be better with proper ignition-control, sounds like you will be having fun!
Do you have a flow-map for the turbo?
As for october, hope everything works out alright! :)
Daniel.

Matthew
20-04-07, 05:44 AM
Honestly Albert, using a turbo like that with the stock ignition system. I really think you should donate it to someone with a decent ignition system. Like Daniel, for instance :cheesy:

Albert Trout
20-04-07, 05:53 AM
Stop bullying me you two :cry: It won't be going near the car until MS is in, so it's more motivation for me to get my finger out my ****.

I now have everything I want for the car, engine wise, so it's just a matter of getting stuck in. Mr. Works and Heid can testify to my neatness & organistaional skills, so it shouldn't be too long :confused:

Saab-Daniel
20-04-07, 06:00 AM
Hmmm, Maybe MS-ignition-control could be usefull?? :cheesy:
Sorry, will stop now... Looks like a nice turbo, should be able to provide a lot of power, when you get it up and running!
MS will sort stuff fine, what injectors are you planning on using?
Daniel.

ShadowWorks
20-04-07, 06:06 AM
I may have the funds for a gearbox round about October time, so having the option of upping the power quite easily is important.

The injectors I have, for when I get round to MS (Shut it Daniel) are also good for over 300, so I'll hopefully have all my bases covered but MS is, obviously, vital to implementing all of the above.


There is nothing wrong with your gearbox, just give it a proper oil change;)

I forgot to ask, are those new cosworth injectors low impedance ones? I was told its important for MS to work correctly.

Have you soldered the MS together or did you buy it ready made? I also heard that some people bodge up the soldering and this makes the MS overheat and wipe its maps.

I hope you have a wiring diagram for MS, I have never wired it up:lol:

Saab-Daniel
20-04-07, 06:18 AM
Shadow, everything is available online, also a complete guide to how to solder the thing up is available, I did it myself, and I don't have a lot of experience with soldering.
Wiring-diagram is also available, i bought a new wiring-loom though, that fitted already.
Daniel.

Albert Trout
20-04-07, 06:33 AM
I bought a set of Bosch 0280150803's from e-bay last December for 80. They usually sell for 50 each, so I was quite chuffed with myself. There isn't a lot of info about on them but after scouring the net I found that they were orginally manufactured to flow 38lb/hr @ 2.8 bar, so I'll able to turn my fuel pressure down a bit. Don't know why, but this appeals to me as well. I might have a bit of bother with such high flowing injectors at idle, but if I can't get them to work, I should be able to sell them at a profit and get smaller ones anyway.

I can't remember the impedence of the injectors Sha, but they are about 4ohms. You just need to put resistors in line with MS. No biggy. I bought it ready made and as Daniel says, it really isn't that hard to wire up. I've already got a connector for the Hall Sensor with a pick up resistor in place, lengthened all the wiring on the loom and got all the sensors and connectors I need. I've also got a very clear picture in my mind of how to go about it.

You're right, there isn't anything up with the gearbox, Sha. But, if I was to get everything I have put in and properly tuned, then I could very quickly turn it into box of broken metal with that turbo. And Mr. Eriksson makes exceedingly good boxes :D

Matthew
20-04-07, 07:15 AM
I was going to snag a set of injectors from a 9-5 Aero. Cheap and cheerful. I think they're already near their limits with 250BHP, but would be ample for what I have in mind.

After Sweden, I might spend a day scouting around the scrapyards looking for a good donor car.

80 for a set of new mahoosive injectors sounds like a bargain :D

Albert Trout
20-04-07, 07:38 AM
Scrapyards the place Matthew. I'd watched a few of the 9000 red tops on e-bay and they often go for over 100 a set. Once you've got a programmable ECU, there are bargains aplenty.

Saab-Daniel
20-04-07, 09:06 AM
Those injectors wont cause you grief, albert, the red-tops are ca. 352ml @ 3 bar, which I'm running. I can make the car shut off with out a problem @ idle. I'm running leaner at idle now, than I ever did with the K-jet, and that's with the K-jet dialled in pretty lean!
I'm in need of bigger injectors already, as it's hard for me to keep the dutycycle down on them, when really pushing the car. So I'm looking for replacements in the 450-500 ml zone, I think.
That's in the future though, looking forward to getting the car rr'ed next week, see what's what...
Daniel.

Albert Trout
20-04-07, 09:19 AM
That's good to know Daniel. I though I might have issues getting the duty cycle short enough. Look forward to seeing your RR results :cheesy:

ShadowWorks
20-04-07, 12:22 PM
Whats the harm at idle or off boost running?

If the injector flows to much fuel even with your resistor, can MS not simply adjust the length of the timing pulse that opens the injector sure?

I was looking at the MS forum and it has lots of members so there must be lots of support.

I almost have my in-car pc ready and MS would be perfect to show me in real time whats happening, bla more money!!!!!!!

Saab-Daniel
20-04-07, 01:09 PM
Having too large injectors (read, quite a bit over 600cc) might cause trouble with idle, as the injector-opening time needs to be so small, to pass emisions, that the car will have trouble running, because the injectors can't put in little enough fuel to both keep the car running, and running lean enough.
Have a mate with that problem, sorted by using his old injectors at MOT :cheesy:
Now, the High-res code can controll the injectors with greater accuracy (0.00 instead of 0.0). This provides some nice possiblities with large injectors.
Shad, go read www.megasquirt.info, this will let you in on the MS secrets :)
Matthew, do you know the rating of the aero-injectors? You might need to run them with 4 squirts instead of 2, to get enough fuel in. 4 squirts is like how saab runs injectors, but you can imagine, that squirting 4 times (2 of them, with inlet-valves closed) leaves a nice tea-spoon of fuel over the inlet-valve, badly athomizised (spell-check)... Isn't really efficient.
As for economy, I'm running ca. the same mpg now as before shifting from k-jet, believe I can get it better still later on, after more tuning...
Daniel.

Matthew
20-04-07, 04:14 PM
Matthew, do you know the rating of the aero-injectors? You might need to run them with 4 squirts instead of 2, to get enough fuel in. 4 squirts is like how saab runs injectors, but you can imagine, that squirting 4 times (2 of them, with inlet-valves closed) leaves a nice tea-spoon of fuel over the inlet-valve, badly athomizised (spell-check)... Isn't really efficient.
I would like to run sequential injection, and you're right that the 9-5 Aero injectors wouldn't flow enough fuel, if Trionic 7 employed batch injection.

Which it doesn't :cool:
http://www.saabcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=19873

Yes, it would seem that Trionic 7 uses sequential injection. Something I didn't know until about two minutes ago when I decided to search for "sequential" in the 9-5 forums :lol:

Dr Boost BTW is an engine management systems engineer working for Saab in Trollhattan :o :cool:

Albert Trout
20-04-07, 05:39 PM
Dr Boost BTW is an engine management systems engineer working for Saab in Trollhattan :o :cool:

Aaahaa, that would explain this thread -

http://www.saabcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=90172

I just thought he was a very, very eccentric amateur

Matthew
11-07-07, 03:13 PM
Albert you have been neglecting this project thread :nono; Shocking :o :cheesy: I hope you have some good news for us, such as a fully complete and working MegaSquirt install :cheesy: :cheesy:

Albert Trout
11-07-07, 06:55 PM
Haha. What can I say. I'm a very lazy man. I had a failed attempt at MS due to the unit resetting itself, which I hope was due to the battery running low. Had loads of wee niggly issues that I've had to deal with but haven't bothered posting about. Why does anyone post in the workshop? All you need to know's there already ;)

I'm putting the T3/T4 in this weekend. Figured I'd be wasting my time putting in MS, tuning it and then changing to a bigger turbo. I'll be running it base boost, or about 10psi max until I get MS fully sorted out. If the turbo install goes smoothly I'll be having another go at MS on Sunday :cheesy:

idiot_saabvant
11-07-07, 07:58 PM
Good luck Mr. Trout with your turbo install. Have fun clocking the turbo.

ps

IronJoe
11-07-07, 08:13 PM
Have fun clocking the turbo.

Best mod ever.

Albert Trout
12-08-07, 07:34 AM
Well, the turbo's been on for a while. Just had to make a couple of alterations to my IC piping and put the new "Snake Intake" on. The intake's a temporary fix but it's working fine in the meantime. Pic's for the photo-sluts


http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f144/albertrtrout/IMG_0690.jpg

http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f144/albertrtrout/IMG_0691.jpg

Albert Trout
12-08-07, 07:35 AM
http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f144/albertrtrout/snakeintake.jpg

http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f144/albertrtrout/snakeintake2.jpg

dlb
12-08-07, 02:03 PM
Looks great Albert! When does it start boosting and when does it hit full boost?

Albert Trout
12-08-07, 02:28 PM
It kicks in properly about 3k. I'm not too sure when full boost comes because I've not really been looking at the boost gauge. Not used to the extra zang yet so I'm still keeping my eyes firmly on the road :cheesy:

Bawheid
06-09-07, 06:19 AM
Oi bawbag clear oot yer messages! :D

Albert Trout
06-09-07, 06:22 AM
'Tis done bossack :D

EvanD
13-09-07, 12:54 AM
Looks similar to the piping I got off of ebay. Works great, easy install and looks nice too.

Albert Trout
13-09-07, 09:31 AM
Looks similar to the piping I got off of ebay. Works great, easy install and looks nice too.

Yeah, e-bay's great for piping & silicone. Just can't get stuff like that in the shops here and "specialist" websites prices are scandalous. Car part sites are pretty bad too.