Hi guys.
First things first, lovely with a project-forum, gotta love it :)

Goal:
To make the most driveable c900 T8 that I possible can. This dosn't call for huge power, but something along the 200-220 hp mark is the goal. After this, the body will need a huge work-over, as rust is setting in. When finance allows, all rust will removed, and a paint-job will follow. I have a complete Carlsson-kit lying around, that will be fitted at the same point in time.
Everything will be worked out in good time, as I'm a student (will finish in 2007, wuhuu, 5 years later, and 25 years old!), and the economy therefor is a large issue. I like to think I've come quite far already, hoping to implement megasquirt completly within the next months, hopefully before christmas.

Now down to business.
The car:
http://img124.imageshack.us/img124/6055/pic000039us.th.jpg (http://img124.imageshack.us/my.php?image=pic000039us.jpg)

Specs:
c900 T8 from 1983. Facelifted with new front and bumpers.
Mods so far:

*APC-modded according to both www.900aero.com (http://www.900aero.com/) and http://www.saabcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=49981 , with the difference, that I have the older APC, teh 14-pin version. Whatch the last thread for updates on how to mod your 14-pin unit.

*9000 Intercooler fitted to lower boost-temps.

*3" JT exhaust, still with restrivtive elbow.

*Megasquirt ignition-control (perhaps the most important mod so far!).

*Powder-coated 15" rims.

*Black-diamond rotors and pagid fast road-pads.

Future plans
As for most of our cars, the future plans are always most larger than what's already been completed :)

*New IC (bar and plate, something that will fit, all aluminum) will be ordered this or the coming week

*Working towards getting rid of the standard fuel-injection system, allowing Megasquirt in complete control. All sensors have been sourced and bought. Still in need of fitting re-worked manifold (so it can accept electronic injectors), fitting coolant-temp sensor and making a fuel-rail. Along with a new wiring-harness and a LOT of mapping, this is "all" that's left!

*Fitting my 3" stainless steel exhaust system that I have already made. This includes removing the restrictive elbow. This wont be done untill after megasquirt is fitted. This will allow room in the engine compartment, so that the battery can stay in the opposite side to the original.

*Fitting 88-brakes, got all the bits and pieces already, time is needed to fit it, and finding new rims to go with it! Last it requires cash too :)

*Paint-job and fitting of carlsson-kit along with whaletail (all the bits and kit is already bought), just need to find money for paint and time to do all the rusty bits. This will be a few years away...

*Getting a stronger gearbox, or even trying to recon one myself. This mod is far out in the future, just hope the standard unit will hold out so long.

I'll update the thread as the mods rolls in, hopefully I'll start on the wiring-harness on friday, allowing me to do some realtime logging of my afr (got a LC-1 wideband lambda sensor), so I have a good starting point, when I need to map the car myself with megasquirt.

Daniel.

This is just what I was after, one place to read about your barking mad plans. Sounds like your car is going to be quite something, in fact it's half way there already. Nice

Thanks Phil. Always seem to fall short of time and money, when doing my mods :)
Your thread looks very nice too, love your verts! Sorry I haven't replied on our little spoiler-dialog, I still need to figure out if I'm going to need it or not... Thank you for your patience, and thank you for your reply to my thread :)
Daniel.

T8's rock!!!:cheesy:

Suppose i better get on with mine now aswell!

Hi again.
Just mapped my ignition some more today while I was out driving anyway.
Here's the latest map, the car is pulling a lot better now :)
http://img206.imageshack.us/img206/9189/8indkringec5.th.jpg (http://img206.imageshack.us/my.php?image=8indkringec5.jpg)
Daniel.

So, finally, my new IC has been fitted! Must say the install was very easy, because I had the 9k IC fitted before this one. So what was needed?
Apart from the pipes I already had from the previous install, I bought 2*90 degree bends (51mm = 2") and also 2 reduceres, going from 2" (51mm) to 3" (76mm) to allow fitting onto the IC.
Car after removing the old 9k IC:
http://img267.imageshack.us/img267/9307/udeniclm0.th.jpg (http://img267.imageshack.us/my.php?image=udeniclm0.jpg)
The IC:
http://img267.imageshack.us/img267/1914/nyicrq6.th.jpg (http://img267.imageshack.us/my.php?image=nyicrq6.jpg)
I fitted the new IC with zip-ties as I didn't have the oppportunity to fab up brackets today, I will do eventually, though.
The IC fits nicely towards the radiator, I wouldn't want to fit the IC on a car with A/C though...!
Here's the trial-fit:
http://img212.imageshack.us/img212/9387/trialfit2nm3.th.jpg (http://img212.imageshack.us/my.php?image=trialfit2nm3.jpg)


First driving impressions is stronger boost, which a datalog on MS proved correct. Baseboost is up from 0.36bar til 0.43bar. Max boost up from 0.8 to 0.88! Feels like the car is pulling harder, especially at higher rpm. The pipes are COLD, so the IC is doing its job well!
Enjoy the pictures, I'll update the thread tomorrow or sunday, I'm getting the girl tested on a rolling road tomorrow, saturday, which should be great fun!
Any comments?

Daniel.

Hmm, forum limits pictures pr. post... Ohh well, here's some more!

Trial fit of the pipes on the right side of the car:
http://img212.imageshack.us/img212/2505/rrhjresideeu8.th.jpg (http://img212.imageshack.us/my.php?image=rrhjresideeu8.jpg)
Pipes left side:
http://img212.imageshack.us/img212/2852/rrvenstresidesx1.th.jpg (http://img212.imageshack.us/my.php?image=rrvenstresidesx1.jpg)
Pipes and endtank left side:
http://img212.imageshack.us/img212/2852/rrvenstresidesx1.th.jpg (http://img212.imageshack.us/my.php?image=rrvenstresidesx1.jpg)
Pipes and endtank right side:
http://img212.imageshack.us/img212/7349/rrogendetankehjresideuj0.th.jpg (http://img212.imageshack.us/my.php?image=rrogendetankehjresideuj0.jpg)
Fitted behind bumper left side:
http://img212.imageshack.us/img212/7349/rrogendetankehjresideuj0.th.jpg (http://img212.imageshack.us/my.php?image=rrogendetankehjresideuj0.jpg)
Fitted behind bumper, right side:
http://img212.imageshack.us/img212/8207/icbagkofangerhjresidekb4.th.jpg (http://img212.imageshack.us/my.php?image=icbagkofangerhjresidekb4.jpg)
Daniel

Looks good Danie l:cheesy: I'm convinced now anyway. Think I might just get one of those myself.

It looks like you could squeeze the front spoiler back on without cutting any bits off it. I went overboard with mine and it's a mess, but I have a spare one. Do you reckon I could get the new one on with one of those IC's, no cutting, and a hidden FMIC?

Thanks a lot albert!
About the bumper, I would love a new one of those too, as I believe you can fit one without needing to cut anything but the tow-hooks! You can indeed make quite a sleeper FMIC out of one of those...
Looking forward to having the car rr'ed tomorrow, will return with results, good or not! :)
Daniel.

I see some rust job to be done mate :D


I was looking at yours pics, I think it will be easy to cut a hole en left and right side of the lock plate, and let the the pipes get out of there as we spoke of yesterday, unless the ic dont get that high so the holes gets past those bars (vanger) if it gets above those I think you will get a better result, maybe even I will have one of those someting insted of my 9k ic.

Hi guys...

Kaas, you might be right, and I will look into that, question is, if it's possible to get the pipes under the head-light...
About rust, yes, I need to work on that, someday :lol:
About the RR, very dissapoint result. Got a lot of boost-taper, running lean, and not aggressive enough on the ignition-part in MS.
Result was 164hp, 264nm. And one VERY sad guy! I will re-wise the ignition-map next week, and look into why my boost tapers to 0.5 bar @ 5200 and up... I peak at 0.85 at 3200, then drop all the way to 5500... Very lousy...
I got a lot of oil in my pressure-pipes, and I'm running a catch-tank, which means the turbo must be pushing oil into the pipes... The turbo has no shaft-play, but the turbo might be worn out anyway :roll:
The APC is modded as it should, but still looses boost, so the turbo might be on it's way, it whistles a lot too. Will try to mount a bleed valve to check if it can maintain boost with that...
Daniel.

So a bit of progress!
Got my Ebay-IC fitted as per above, I like how it performs, cool air, we like it!
Got around to re-modding the APC-unit, holds boost a lot better now, but still not enough. I've got two turbos sitting at home now, both in pretty good nick!
One is a standard T16 T3 garrett oil and water-cooled unit, the other is a Mitsubishi Te05-12b, in better nick, so I'm happy. Think my own turbo is on the way out, blowing a bit of smoke, houling a lot, and also leaving oil in the pressure-pipes. Will look into fitting one of them sometime soon, just have to make up my mind which one, hehe...
As for ignition-timing, I've upped the anty a bit on that front, adjusted the on-boost timing a fair bit, but also have adjusted the off-boost timing, leaving me with a much more driveable car. I will look into fitting my new wiring harness soon, after that, focus is on the EFI-part of the project :)
Daniel.

Here's the latest map, the car is pulling a lot better now :)
http://img206.imageshack.us/img206/9189/8indkringec5.th.jpg (http://img206.imageshack.us/my.php?image=8indkringec5.jpg)
(Newbie questio) I notice that the Y axis of your map is scaled to 200 kPa, which is nearly 30PSI :o Why not reduce the scale of the Y axis to give finer control over timing?

Nother newbie question Daniel, does your ms setup include a knock sensor, and retard ignition if there is knock, or are you just relying on the apc knock led, and adjusting the map if you get knock?

(Newbie questio) I notice that the Y axis of your map is scaled to 200 kPa, which is nearly 30PSI :o Why not reduce the scale of the Y axis to give finer control over timing?

100kPa is atmospheric pressure i.e 1 bar, so 200kPa is equivalent to 1 bar of boost.

I'm a muppet ;oops:

Of course - the map has to show vacuum as well as boost.

Another idiot question - if I'm using a cam position sensor for sequential ignition with Megasquirt, do I also need a crank position sensor?

I'm a muppet ;oops:

Of course - the map has to show vacuum as well as boost.

Another idiot question - if I'm using a cam position sensor for sequential ignition with Megasquirt, do I also need a crank position sensor?

I made the same mistake. When I first started looking at it, I couldn't understand how the MAP sensor could read over 200kPa but was only good to control ignition & fuelling up to 21psi. D'oh!

It's one or the other, so a cam sensor's enough. I'm going live at the weekend, hopefully, using the hall sensor,

So you're triggering off the distibutor with no crank position sensor?

Any mods to the Megasquirt code necessary for that?

If you buy the board from the guy at efi, he will set it up depending on what you want, or if you change the setup it can be reconfigured (the guy may do it for free).

I'm holding off getting it until i have everything on the car, i could use the hall sensor until i get the trigger wheel on but then i'd have to send it back to him to change over.

For about £15 extra per item you can get stuff like 5th injectors controller, knock detection, boost control, traction control, etc.....

So you're triggering off the distibutor with no crank position sensor?

Any mods to the Megasquirt code necessary for that?

Matthew, have a look here, you may have already?
http://megasquirt.sourceforge.net/extra/setup-msns.html

When i first looked into MS, i was all for using the disi as the trigger, but from what i found out on the forums, it's not too good at higher RPM's, but i suppose it's easy enough to try out, especially when the disi is already there.
The other downside is that you are still using the single coil, with EDIS there are two coils.

So you're triggering off the distibutor with no crank position sensor?

Any mods to the Megasquirt code necessary for that?

Yeah, that's right. No mods are needed to with the code. As Si says if you buy from ExtraEFI then Phil will send ready to go. Just send the Hall signal to MS, then MS trggers through the ignition module.

As Sonnett says as well, it's definitely not the ideal way to go. EDIS looks rock solid, but for getting started this method is really pretty simple to put together, and Daniel's not had any trouble with it. The main thing for me is the learning experience, and even before I've installed, the amount I've learned about how ignition & fuelling systems work is incredible, and I've only scratched the surface.

I've been following Megasquirt for over five years, but without a vehicle worth fitting it to. I'll be buying the components and building the PCB myself, as for me that's part of the fun and I used to be pretty good with a soldering iron!

I was planning to use the distributor for cam position, rather than coil setup. I have something else planned for that, and it's not EDIS ;)

When using my timing lamp, I've watched the timing mark on 900's flywheels dance around so the distributors certainly aren't great for accuracy. I'll eventually ditch the distributor (with ceremonial burning ;)) in favour of a proper cam position sensor.

Hi guys.
Sorry for the slow answer, hehe, but Albert's been doing well answering the questions, thanks mate.
As for the dizzy, correct, it might not be ideal, but it will manage over 6500 without a problem. The power provided with i.e DI-ignition is really power you can't put to any good use, it's overkill. That said, I'll probably try out Wasted Spark at some point, just to get a cleaner look without a dizzy.
When tracking my ignition with MS with a timing-light, I don't get a lot of dancing around at all, it's more solid than before. This is also because of the vacum-advance beeing removed, that's sure, but it is much more accurate than with the original control.
A few guys I know here in Denmark are running 250hp++ with dizzy and no trouble, using ms.
Also, SG on the forum has 287bhp in spite of his out-dated original ignition-system. I can't get him convinced that MS is the way to go :roll:
Daniel.

A little update :)
Exchanged the lower A-arms on the car.
Got a second set of arms, which I blasted clean, then gave them a treatment with POR15, makes them shine like nothing else, and shouldn't rust. Mounted new bushings in them, and re-fitted to car. Very nice result. Had a problem with the car steering on it's own, and also a loud "Crounk"-noise when going into a drive, this has disappeared. Also the steering has a much more positive feel now. Will definetly change the rest of the car aswell. Already have the bushings, just want to do a straight swap like with the front ones. Meaning I want to have a set of extra arms that I can prepare for a swap, so the car dosn't have to sit while I prepare them with POR15.

On the more fun side of things, I'm contemplating an engine rebuild!
The engine in the car at the moment is spilling a lot of oil, and really needs to have a lot of gaskets changed. Since I have an extra-engine sitting around doing nothing, 4 first overbore (0,5mm) new pistons sitting on the shelf too, I really think it will be the best idea. My brother works at a machine shop, which means he can get the block re-bored and honed, and prep the head with bigger inlet-valves and what ever prep it needs. So, I'm looking at around £500 in total for a rebuild with gaskets, new engine-mounts, new pistons and bearings on rods and crank, new chain and so on.
What do you guys think, new gaskets or engine rebuild? The rebuild will take time as I have to scrape together the cash for it, and will be made in stages beginning with pulling the spare-engine appart and getting it prepared for the bore and honing...
Daniel.

Probably easier to chuck a new engine in, with all the goodies in it:D , if i continue with the T8 past intercooler & exhaust i'll probably get another engine to build up rather than doing anything to the old one, at the moment i'm purely going to concentrate on everything around the engine, get that sorted then do the engine upgrade last of all.

I vote for buying 5l of oil and building the new engine:cheesy:

So I changed my turbo this weekend from a T3 trim40 to a Mitsubishi TE05-12B. Spool-up is faster, which is nice, now I just have to re-adjust the Ignition-map, as the boost comes in faster. Also, the baseboost has to be adjusted down, as it peaks well above 0.8 bar, which is bad...
I've noticed some water in the oil, I get a bit of white gung mixing with the oil, now this, I know, is VERY bad.
I just can't seem to find the reason.
There is no noticeable use of coolant, but can't understand if it's only vapour in the system... The car starts like it always does, and dosn't use oil nor coolant... This is weird...
Anyone have something to add?
Thanks,
Daniel.

Your going to have to pressure test the cooling system i think, see if you can find out where it is leaking from, have you got an air compressor handy and a spare coolant resevoir cap you could modify to take an air line fitting?

I can borrow a compressor, but as I said, it dosn't loose any coolant :roll:
Daniel.

Are you sure not even a small amount is leaking into the oil?

There is'nt anywhere in the engine that could build up condensation is there? If you pull off your crankcase breather have those pipes & the pre turbo pipe got any gunk in them?

I'm trying to get my head around the sludge issues with the later cars at the moment, one of the problems seems to be caused by the crank case breather & the PCV valve, i don't know if the problem is caused by water vapour getting in and mixing with the oil or something like that.

Have you done a compression test yet?

Nope, no compression-test.. BUT, I just came to think that I do have a soda-bottle acting as oil-trap for the crankcase-ventilation... Maybe I should unhook that for the time beeing...
Daniel.

When you changed the turbo did you drain the oil and put fresh stuff in? Or have you looked at the core of the old one to see if it was cracked atall?

If you have'nt changed the oil i'd do it asap as you don't want all that gunk ****ing up your turbo bearings and knackering the new one.

I did change the oil, I've done that a lot recently, because of the gunk ending up in the oil. Still hoping it's condenced water, but I will have to look into the oil thermostat, as I think this might be the culprit...
Daniel.

Am I wise?
Probably not.
Am I enthusiastic?
Definetly.
So now you're thinking, what's he rambling on about, the crazy git?

I've made a decision, and it's a bit larger than what I normally have undertaken (although I've done a few things).

I'm renovating my spare engine!!
As some of you may know, I have a bit of water in my oil, and I'm not sure what's causing it. Untill now, my thought are, it can be either the head, the headgasket, or the gasket on the backside of the engine torwards the firewall. I just can bare the thought of lifting the engine, finding a cracked head, and then renovate that, put it on the old engine, and not be sure if everything is as it should be... So, the decisions has been made!

Got pistons lying around (brand spanking new, in first overbore) and a brother that works for a shop that renovates cylinder heads and hone blocks.
I'm ripping the spare engine apart on the weekend, ordering parts for the rebuild today.
Hopefully I'll be able to swap the engine on the next weekend, but that's not all I'll be doing...
While the engine is out, I'll be ditching the old K-jet injection system and going full-blown megasquirt fuel and ignition-control. This really frigthens me, as I'm going to convert to a new fuel-system on a rebuild engine... Who knows if it will even fire up or not!
But no risk - no fun!
I'll try to document as much of the proces as I can with picturers. Should be great fun still though! :)
Any thoughts?
Daniel.

GULP - is the new engine 8 or 16 v?

It will be 8v, as this is my spare engine. I know it's easier to to get MS to work on a 16v, but I have a inlet manifold ready to accept electronic injectors and so on, so why not try it out!
I am pondering with the thought that I should keep the k-jet first to run in the engine, as I know fueling is at is should be...
But that's a decision I haven't made yet...
Daniel.

Just ordered the parts...
It's a waiting game now!
Just hoping it's not too long a waiting game! But speedyparts is imported by a friend of mine to Denmark, he said the parts will be ordered right now, and partsforsaabs usually are very fast when it comes to delivering, so hopefully everything is in stock and can be shipped this week, I need it next week! :D
Daniel.

No comments?? None at all :cry: ?
Daniel.

No comments?? None at all :cry: ?
Daniel.

you need pictures and easy-to-read bullet point lists for people to read :cheesy:

I think it's both very cool and very brave, good luck. The waiting is the toughest part... Almost makes you wanna pay for premuim shipping. Almost. ;)

That would be a wise move using the K-jet to run the new engine in, that's exactly what i will be doing with my rebuilt engine.

You can even change over systems one step at a time, move the ignition to MS, while still using K-Jet for the fuelling, that way you can get used to tuning the ignition side on you lap top, without having to worry too much about the fuelling and when you get confident with the MS software, change over to MS doing everything.

I've been running MS ignition for over a year on the car now, so I'm pretty confident with it. I have access to a fuel-map running on a T8 right now, with the same size injectors I will be running. This is why I'm not too afraid...
I have an ignition-map that's pretty much spot on. And a LC-1 to controll fueling...
Still looking for some advise on the subject though, so I'm open to suggestions! :)
Daniel.

I suggest you fit an EZK crank pulley, shutter-wheel, oil-pump cover and crank sensor. Even if you don't have plans to use it straight-away if your other plans for picking up crank signals fail then at least you'll have the EZK sensor as a fall-back. I'd have to read-up on the theory before being totally confident about my next point but I believe if you combine readings from both a 2-slot crank-sensor and a 4-slot dissy sensor you could get sequential injection working. Maybe you're planning that already? Then with some sort of individual coil setup you could also start getting clever with the ignition setup as well!

I've considered this, don't have the parts on hand, or, I do have the parts on hand, but I sold them before I knew I was pulling my engine.
Working on a different solution at the momen, was thinking about getting a more stable signal, I must say, than triggering out of the dizzy...
Daniel.

Ok, small change of plans...
I'll be fitting Megasquirt first on the old engine, while renovating the spare-engine. got it dismantled yesterday, my brother will bring the block and head for renovating, should work out nice! :)
Got all the things gathered to fit MegaSquirt to the T8, which is a lot of stuff!
Only thing I need now, is a few fuel-lines, I'll be getting them in braided steel. Also, a couple of oil-hoses will be made, looking forward to it! :)
Pictures to follow!
Daniel.

So I got some ss oil-cooler lines, as the old ones are worn and leaking!
http://img251.imageshack.us/img251/4126/pict0595ss5.th.jpg (http://img251.imageshack.us/my.php?image=pict0595ss5.jpg)
http://img170.imageshack.us/img170/5656/pict0561ya6.th.jpg (http://img170.imageshack.us/my.php?image=pict0561ya6.jpg)

Got some fuel-lines made up aswell for the Megasquirt-project too:
http://img292.imageshack.us/img292/85/pict0596zb8.th.jpg (http://img292.imageshack.us/my.php?image=pict0596zb8.jpg)
http://img78.imageshack.us/img78/2332/pict0597mw2.th.jpg (http://img78.imageshack.us/my.php?image=pict0597mw2.jpg)
http://img170.imageshack.us/img170/115/pict0598pw6.th.jpg (http://img170.imageshack.us/my.php?image=pict0598pw6.jpg)

Everything is coming together nicely, but an MOT has come in the way, so now I have to concentrate on getting the car ready for that instead...
MS is coming closer though, will be driving MS before end of april, at the latest!!!
Daniel.

that fuel railscares me are you really running it on your car like that? Is it spliced underneath the rubber hoses?

I've got a custom rail coming, this one will be for the first period only. It's been tested before, and holds pressure nicely, no leaks what so ever, but I will keep an eye on it, of course.

Daniel.

Where are you sourcing your custom rail? prices??...
I bent mine 2 days ago when replacing the injectors I'm off to the pick apart today but i was just curious what else is available.

Thanks

edit: I just noticed the wrench in that last pic...what gives??

www.jenvey.co.uk makes them to your requirements :)
Which is needed on a T8, unless you're handy welding alloy or stainless steel...
Daniel.

Ohh, yeah, prices, believe it was something like £50 for a custom rail, made to specifications.

The wrench gave up when I was trying to pound a bolt of something, can't remeber what, haha :cool:
Daniel.

More work done, not as much as I've hoped though, but still enough to update on, hehe...
Before starting today:
http://img61.imageshack.us/img61/8595/pict0601de5.th.jpg (http://img61.imageshack.us/my.php?image=pict0601de5.jpg)
After a bit of work:
http://img61.imageshack.us/img61/614/pict0602sx9.th.jpg (http://img61.imageshack.us/my.php?image=pict0602sx9.jpg)
The MS-wiring looks much worse than it really is:
http://img61.imageshack.us/img61/8411/pict0604sp1.th.jpg (http://img61.imageshack.us/my.php?image=pict0604sp1.jpg)
Final result of the day:
http://img489.imageshack.us/img489/6753/pict0603tg5.th.jpg (http://img489.imageshack.us/my.php?image=pict0603tg5.jpg)

Tomorrow's the fun part. Need to wire up 12v for the injectors, along with ground from MS. Also, need to get a bosch water-temp file, as I can't fit the gm-sensor I have, because I don't have the right threading-equipment, grrrrr :evil:!!!
Still contemplating what to do, go see a shop that'll do it for me, or make a new file for MS...
Let me know what you guys think,
Daniel.

I like the idea of using the rubber pipe in the fuel rail. Some of the pipework for my LPG kit is rubber and is rated safe to like 10bar or so! So provided it is happy with being exposed to petrol there is no reason why you cant use rubber hose! (its only 3 bar or so in a fuel rail aint it?)

How much did you have to drill the manifold to fit the injectors into it?

Hose is fuel and oil-rated, so no trouble there. I will be getting a custom rail at a later point though.
Hard to say how much was drilled out, I actually swaped some parts for the manifold, as I didn't have the right equipment to hold down the manifold while drilling, and since he had the manifold at hand, I took it. I'll be making my own at a later point though, as I think I want to get the injectors in a bit further.
This will work for know though. As I'm rebuilding an engine, I'm using this engine as ginny-pig... :)
Daniel.

Well, another nice day in the garage! Got the engine looking like an engine again, hehe...

Start of the day:
http://img453.imageshack.us/img453/9426/pict0606vn9.th.jpg (http://img453.imageshack.us/my.php?image=pict0606vn9.jpg)

YOU'RE GONNA GET IT->
http://img376.imageshack.us/img376/378/pict0607up7.th.jpg (http://img376.imageshack.us/my.php?image=pict0607up7.jpg)

Out of the way... Ahh, no k-jet to spoil the fun :D
http://img376.imageshack.us/img376/7223/pict0609km6.th.jpg (http://img376.imageshack.us/my.php?image=pict0609km6.jpg)



I'm pretty satisfied with the work, now i "just" need to fix the remaining wiring (fitting injector-connectors) and plug one of the holes in the throttle-body, that's not needed...
So progress once again, I'm getting closer and closer to firing the car up...!
Daniel.

Not in the bin, and I will keep it, but hopefully shouldn't be used again...
http://img98.imageshack.us/img98/3769/pict0610yl5.th.jpg (http://img98.imageshack.us/my.php?image=pict0610yl5.jpg)

New manifold on car:
http://img119.imageshack.us/img119/6018/pict0611zt0.th.jpg (http://img119.imageshack.us/my.php?image=pict0611zt0.jpg)

Fitting ss hoses:
http://img113.imageshack.us/img113/6733/pict0612tj3.th.jpg (http://img113.imageshack.us/my.php?image=pict0612tj3.jpg)

A bit more:
http://img471.imageshack.us/img471/5371/pict0613zv1.th.jpg (http://img471.imageshack.us/my.php?image=pict0613zv1.jpg)

End of the day-shot...
http://img376.imageshack.us/img376/7508/pict0614ac3.th.jpg (http://img376.imageshack.us/my.php?image=pict0614ac3.jpg)

Annoying photo-limit...
Daniel.

Annoying photo-limit...
I know :evil: I just split the photos over mutiple posts now. The limit seems pointless!

I was 4 wires that needed soldering, refilling fluids and loading a new map into MS from starting the car...
First, re-filled coolant, it started pooring down the engine-block!!
This is what I found when I removed the inlet-manifold:
http://img377.imageshack.us/img377/3338/pict0617hv7.th.jpg (http://img377.imageshack.us/my.php?image=pict0617hv7.jpg)

Too bad I didn't check it before hand, but that's what you get. It's an b-engine manifold, my engine is an H-engine...
So now I'm modding the original manifold, hopefully I'll refit it sunday, then try to fire it up...
Daniel.

Progress!
A mate of mine works at the coolest place :cool:
Loads of mills, drills, bits and pieces!
So now I'm back in business!
Got my old H-type manifolded modded to take the electronic fuel-injectors, fits even better than they did before! I'm not proud of the fitting of the coolant-sensor, but it will do, should work fine though...
Pics!
First of injector in manifold:
http://img401.imageshack.us/img401/6104/pict0618jy9.th.jpg (http://img401.imageshack.us/my.php?image=pict0618jy9.jpg)
Then of coolant-sensor in manifold:
http://img405.imageshack.us/img405/2802/pict0619te2.th.jpg (http://img405.imageshack.us/my.php?image=pict0619te2.jpg)
And opposite site of manifold:
http://img174.imageshack.us/img174/3508/pict0626vv6.th.jpg (http://img174.imageshack.us/my.php?image=pict0626vv6.jpg)

Hopefully I'll get it fired up on sunday!
Daniel.

I would get a new fuel rail as soon as possible, or at least try to make the connections between rubber hose and metal pipe a bit stronger. That does NOT look safe. :o Behind those connections is fuel with pressure, a leak and a spark might cause a disaster.

I'm glad I am not around when you start the engine with that fuel rail.

I wouldn't be worried. The sparks are inside the engine. Also - if you're standing there when the thing fires up it's not going to explode in your face. You'll have time to switch off the ignition and put out the fire - although it's extreemly unlikely to ignite.

The fuel-system has been tested (the fuel-rail too), it holds pressure just fine, no leaks at all. I'm getting a new rail sometime soon, but need to collect some cash for it. It looks crap, I know, but it works, and that's whats important for me at the moment...
Daniel.

yeahh! you could get a purple anodized fuel-rail. Then there'd be no-doubt it would be high performance and totally leak free!

I would get a new fuel rail as soon as possible, or at least try to make the connections between rubber hose and metal pipe a bit stronger. That does NOT look safe. :o Behind those connections is fuel with pressure, a leak and a spark might cause a disaster.

I'm glad I am not around when you start the engine with that fuel rail.

Like I said - I'm driving round with an LPG kit using rubber pipes!. LPG multipoint injection kits use lots of rubber pipes! - They dont explode all the time and that is with a flammable gas in at higher pressure than the petrol is!

My nitrous kit on the 8v used to use rubber and plastic pipes and the pressure in the nitrous line was in excess of 1000psi / 70 bar. They use rubber hoses on hydraulic systems for tractors or cranes and also on air-compressors... as long as you're using the right hose for the job then there's no problem.

Like I said - I'm driving round with an LPG kit using rubber pipes!. LPG multipoint injection kits use lots of rubber pipes! - They dont explode all the time and that is with a flammable gas in at higher pressure than the petrol is!

I'm sure the rubber pipe can hold the pressure, but what about those connections. I would not take the risk with fuel.

Standard fuel system uses plastic pipe with very thin walls. Prehaps as thin as 1/2 a millimeter. These pipes are then pushed over the tails on the fittings. I believe there might be a bit of heat involved to soften the plastic as the tubes are pushed onto the fittings but thats it - nothing else holding them on.

Well, we shall find out if these connections hold, when the owner uses the engine. Hopefully they will. But remember, if they won't "I told you so". :cheesy:

As said, the fuel-system has been tested, no leaks!
The pressure in the fuel-rail wont be much higher than when letting the fuel-pump run at full power with the injectors still closed...
But naturally, I'll be causious!
The custom rail will be in either stainless or aluminum, either way, should look the business! And be leak-free, high-flow, amongst others :)
Daniel.

I can't believe it, but it works, it fired up and runs!
Forgot to load the right map after altering the coolant-sensor setup. When this was done, the car started right away! It dosn't idle yet, because I don't have an idle-screw, I need this, as the throttle housing is from a 2.1, this engine dosn't use one. So now, when the throttle is closed, it's closed shut, which wont let the car idle, hehe...
Anyone have an idea for making one up?
Also, during the work, I must have knackered the voltage regulator on the generator, so now I have to replace that. Will be getting one later today. Annoying, now that the car fired up, so haven't taken it for a spin yet!
I noticed it was wrong, when my battery-gauge was showing over 16volts at 1200rpm = not good...
So hopefully I'll be able to take the car out for a spin tonight, pic up my video-camera and make a small video out of it...
The engine really spins, like it's been lifted from a lot of burden (i.e the K-jet metering-plate) and takes the throttle very nice... Well, it did, untill I noticed the gauge, then I turned the car off... Fired it up this morning too, though, just to make sure It wasn't a fluke, haha... It wasn't... So now I need to fix these two things!
After fitting the regulator, I'll have a spin in the car... :)
Daniel.

At idle does'nt the AAV open? Don't you need MS or which ever ECU to open the AAV when the throttle plate is closed?

shouldn't you have an idle control valve in there to feed air in behind the throttle plate as required to keep the car idling?

I'm using the Fast-Idle output to control ignition at the moment, will make an idle-screw at some point, just don't want to pull the throttle-house of again right now, hehe...
I eventually will get an idle-valve, but a lot of people I know have their systems working without one...
We'll see how it works first :)
Daniel.

Ohh my ohh my... It drives, and it drives very very nicely!!
Took it for the first test-drive yesterday, and the driveability is incredible! Even with a map from another T8, not re-done for my car yet, the pull-up off boost is magnificent! Engine is purring, I'm a very happy chap!!!
Video to follow...
Daniel.

nice one Daniel, are you going to tune it on the road or will you take it to a rolling road and get it professionally mapped? Can make a massive difference.

Hi...
It's very nice, I'm very pleased... I'll do the initial mapping myself, then probably make the fine-tuning on at a rr-session, they are just so expensive... That wont be untill the new engine is ready, fitted and over the break-in period, so wont be on this side of the summer, me thinks.
Couldn't get my LC-1 to work yesterday, so will have to fiddle with that today, so I can monitor what's going on and why... So haven't pushed the car with boost yet...
Daniel.

I think I will be doing the mapping, but we'll see... I have a mate that has run in a few high-figured MS-cars, probably get him to help me a bit aswell...
Daniel.

I'm about to buy an 81 8VT (first year of the 'h' engine) so will be interested to do mods, etc. as time goes on. My 83 8VT project car (http://www.classicsaab.net/gallery2/main.php?g2_itemId=940) is going to be aborted soon because of body and engine problems, but it'll be stripped before being got rid of since the engine block is ok, and the auto transmission worked fine the last time I had the car running before I start dismantling the engine to solve starting/running problems associated.

The serious corrosion damage to the coolant passages of the alloy cylinder head and problems with the water pump and timing cover (corrosion, and a broken bolt that won't come out) have made me look for another avenue to get a non-APC 8V turbo c900 to work on. The 81 8VT had a rebuilt head put on a couple of years back, plus other things (water pump, turbo, etc.) are all recently re-done.

Craig.

Let me know if I can help, have done a few mods to the old T8 so far, looking forward to getting my renovated engine in the car, but it wont be ready for a month or so...
I'm heading out to fit an open air-filter now, will take some video of it running afterwards... :)
Daniel.

Here's a little vid' of the car running and driving:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=399720960185019236
The driveability is way up, doing really well, but running quite a bit too rich at the moment, but fine-tuning will help this out in the next few days...
Daniel.

Brilliant, Daniel!

Am following this thread for quite some time as I'm in the middle of rebuilding a C900 T8 from the same year... really eager to loose the dissy and mechanical injectionsystem. Time for a dynorun now? ;)

???

whow ... Daniel - I thought you`re in Denmark ... and they drive the "proper" side of the road there ... BUT tou have steering wheel on right side of the car ...

have I missed something? :roll:

Thanks for the words... Will try to get the wideband-sensor fitted today, need to do a bit of welding to get the sensor to sit in the downpipe, will make the mapping a fair bit easier...
I'm still running dizzy-ignition, it works just fine and it should be able to provide power enough for whatever your gearbox needs, hehe... I know of cars running around 300hp with dizzy-ignition, so I should be ok... Might go wasted spart at some point, just to try it out and to get rid of the dizzy... Wont be untill a fair bit later...
Daniel.

I am in Denmark, I have just imported my car from the UK, so I have the steering wheel in the "wrong" side, but drive on the right side of the road... It turns a few heads once in a while, hehe :)
Daniel.

I was assuming you had fitted the wasted spark already, since you mentioned MS being installed for ignition...

Don't underestimate the effect of mechanical retard (ie stock distributor). Eric van Spelde wrote some fine words on that. Problem with vacuum retard/advance is that all advance gets 'dumped' into the boost-curve at once, where it should be done in a more 'eased' way. If you're looking for a drivable T8, go wasted spark:) I will, anyway ;)

You're misunderstanding me... I'm controlling spark with MS, I've locked the dizzy, running without the mechanical weights and not using the vacum-advance either. I'm just triggering the Dizzy now, not letting some stupid mechanical weights and vacum controlling it... ;)
Daniel.

You're misunderstanding me... I'm controlling spark with MS, I've locked the dizzy, running without the mechanical weights and not using the vacum-advance either. I'm just triggering the Dizzy now, not letting some stupid mechanical weights and vacum controlling it... ;)
Daniel.

Fully misunderstanding indeed. ;oops:
Sorry for that ;)

No problem! :)
Letting MS control spark is really working well, now with fuel too, I'm all in control!
Daniel.

As I take it, you put MS between your coil and your dissy, keeping the 'distributing' function of the dissy, but eliminating the retard/advance function?

Daniel, have you got any pictures of the inlet manifold you have had modified to take the EFI's? I'm going to start work on my spare one soon.

No, not really...
Hardware-wise, I changed a few wires:
Removed the wire in the ignition-module that comes from the hall-sensor (inside the dizzy), put it into MS on pin24 with a 1k pull-up resistor placed on it. Then, I ran a wire from MS to the ignition-module, can't remember what pin, can check if you want. Then I locked the dizzy and removed the vacum-hose from the vacum-capsule.
Now you're in business, and just need to adjust Megatune and Megasquirt to make it do what you want!
So in short, I'm controlling the ignition-module...
Daniel.

Si: No, not really, but it's REALLY easy... You need a 16mm drill, and probably a tool that will smoothen the transit betwen 16mm and 14mm. The standard-holes are 14mm, drill them with a 16mm drill around 1.1 or 1.2cm into the manifold. If you want, you can bring the injectors down further by using a grinder before drilling. I'm trying this out without grinding. It works fine so far!
Daniel.

I can hear compressor stall on that video. Do you have a BOV fitted?

As I take it, you put MS between your coil and your dissy, keeping the 'distributing' function of the dissy, but eliminating the retard/advance function?

Yeah, this is the way i think of the way Daniel has done it too.
The distributer is still there but it doesnt do anything other than send the spark to the correct cylinder.

I also want to go wasted spark with mine and get rid of the dissy totally! :)

Matthew, yes, I have a bov fitted, but I hear the stall too. Thing is, it will do it (albeit not as loud) when I'm lifting of the throttle when under vacum! It must be because of the ultra open airfilter, because I haven't changed anything bov-wise before/after MS... The reaction of the bov appears to be later comparing to before, but that's just a feeling... The bov does sit a bit away from the tb, which might be causing some of it aswell... I might have to try and loosen the bov a bit, just to see what's what...
Daniel.

So now I've got a real open airfilter fitted, just under the bend into the throttlebody.
So a new sound has found it's way to the car... It's producing a loud HISSING sound when the turbo spools up now, very mean, sounding like a learjet, haha!
I'm enjoying myself a lot, I must say!
Now I'm looking into shifting the battery over to the other side of the engine-bay, which will prepare me for my downpipe-install that's coming up too... :) Should be a nice little job...
Daniel.

shouldn't you have an idle control valve in there to feed air in behind the throttle plate as required to keep the car idling?

That's what the auxilliary air valve in a K-jet system is for. With LH it's just a bit more of an advanced device, with the same basic function.

I don't plan on dropping K-jet off my 81 turbo once I've got the car in Sydney, but I will be looking at renewing the electronic ignition with a much newer hall-effect control box (possibly even an EZK box so i can add a knock sensor to the engine in the pre-tapped location under the intake manifold).

Craig.

If you want to start mapping or altering the ignition, might aswell just go for Megasquirt, and do the mapping yourself. You will see great gains with this small modification...
Daniel.

I don't plan on dropping K-jet off my 81 turbo once I've got the car in Sydney, but I will be looking at renewing the electronic ignition with a much newer hall-effect control box (possibly even an EZK box so i can add a knock sensor to the engine in the pre-tapped location under the intake manifold).


Did the 81 900 turbos have H engines? If it is a B there is no pretapped hole for a knock sensor (you have to make one or mount it elsewhere)..

Back from RR-meet with some guys, only one other saab that me, and hate to say I "lost" to him :D
Although, I did produce a very nice result indeed, 190hp @ crank, so I'm very happy with that!
The printer was shot, so no curve on paper, but got it on video! :)
Will post it later...
MS rocks!

Daniel.

not bad for an old 8v :lol:

how much did the other guy make? Was he cheating?

203bhp, but that was a 9k 16v turbo with a standard 204 bhp. So I'm happy!
Daniel.

Good stuff Reverend. You can't argue with more at the crank than a 900 carlsson from a tractor engine :cheesy:

DOH! When I saw the thread title I wasn't thinking 8v Turbo, I was thinking Trionic 8 :o

Good showing so far. The MS stuff is really really interesting!

Hehe, 8valve turbo with 250.000 km on the engine so far. Got a rebuild coming soon, want to make around 220 when the car is where I want it to be.
Should provide "sufficient" for my use, if I want more, might have to look into some other serious mods!
Daniel.

Hehe, 8valve turbo with 250.000 km on the engine so far. Got a rebuild coming soon, want to make around 220 when the car is where I want it to be.
Should provide "sufficient" for my use, if I want more, might have to look into some other serious mods!
Daniel.



Like a 16 Valve, COME ON, JOIN THE DARK SIDE, embrace the powah....:evil: hahaha you already ditched the CIS, if you're in a penny you're in a pound, come on you know you want to be just like the rest of us...one of us...one of us...one of us

Haha, no, no 16v for me, only if I get a 9000 to cruise around in, as a second car later on. I'm going to try out a different cam, from a N/A car to help flow. Also, I will be measuring back-pressure soon, need to figure out if the turbo is too restrictive...
Then come MS again, I need to get boost sorted, controlled by MS, along with a knock-input from the APC, I should be set...
Daniel.

Just went through the log again...
The pressure peaks at 1.05 bar, then drops to 0.75 which it holds to 6300rpm. BUT, the guy who rolled the car, only had the throttle 87% open!
I'm pretty sure there's a lot more to gaing from the car, so it annoys me, he didn't do the run as he should have.
Daniel.

Here's a small video of the car on the rollers...
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=2523523937223307692
Daniel.

Moving on from APC to MS-control. I've been researching how to let MS react to knock, the following is how so set up knock-detection in MS.
Use the knock-output from the APC-system.
The output from the APC can connect straight to MS. Put in a 1K pull up resistor between the input (from the APC) and 5V, top of R11 is 5V on a V2.2 PCB. The APC-input needs to reach pin 5 on the JP1. Now you just need to setup Megatune and burn the settings to MS.
This can be seen here:
http://www.msextra.com/manuals/MS_Extra_Hardware_Manual.htm#knock
Now I just need to test it on my car :D
Daniel.

So, I finally got the boost-control system figured out... The mods needed to the board are small and pretty easy to figure out!
Here's a little picture of the mod inside the box, sorry for the poor quality:
http://img255.imageshack.us/img255/1737/msmoddedforboostio1.jpg
Basically, three things need to be done: Wire from X4 on the board connected to 100ohm resistor, then connected to Source-leg on FET (IRLZ44N or other equivalent). Drain-pin is connected to ground-side of non-excisting D4, a 10kohm resistor is connected via the pin to the Source-side. Gate-pin is connected to X12, which gives me a pulsing ground-signal out on an available Pin (pin 27 here) in the Megasquirt wiring harness.
The APC-solenoid needs to be supplied with a constant 12v after this mod, originally, the APC provides constant ground, with pulsing 12v. In MS, it's the opposite way around. MS provides the pulsing ground-signal...
It's actually quite easy, and now, I have boost according to tps and rpm...
HELLA COOL! I'm a cerial trubo project, no lie!
The reverend has spoken...
Daniel.

amazing... excellent work Rev.

When exactly are you coming over to do mine? :cheesy:

So, I finally got the boost-control system figured out... The mods needed to the board are small and pretty easy to figure out!
Here's a little picture of the mod inside the box, sorry for the poor quality:
http://img255.imageshack.us/img255/1737/msmoddedforboostio1.jpg
Basically, three things need to be done: Wire from X4 on the board connected to 100ohm resistor, then connected to Source-leg on FET (IRLZ44N or other equivalent). Drain-pin is connected to ground-side of non-excisting D4, a 10kohm resistor is connected via the pin to the Source-side. Gate-pin is connected to X12, which gives me a pulsing ground-signal out on an available Pin (pin 27 here) in the Megasquirt wiring harness.
The APC-solenoid needs to be supplied with a constant 12v after this mod, originally, the APC provides constant ground, with pulsing 12v. In MS, it's the opposite way around. MS provides the pulsing ground-signal...
It's actually quite easy, and now, I have boost according to tps and rpm...
HELLA COOL! I'm a cerial trubo project, no lie!
The reverend has spoken...
Daniel.

Oh yeah Reverend, that sounds really simple. Can't believe I didn't figure that out myself :o

Mrs.Trout thanks you for the Copenhagen advice BTW :cheesy:

Albert, did she like the advice any?

It's not like I figured the mod out myself, a couple of guys helped me out to customize it to my appliaction, via the internet, works very nice indeed! Just have a look at this site:
http://www.msextra.com/manuals/MS_Extra_Hardware_Manual.htm#boost
This is what I've done, then altered the needed things in the software.
It's really basic, when you get your hands dirty, I'm no expert at electronics, but I seem to manage... :cool:
Joe, I'll be over whenever you want! I'm only a return-ticket and beers away :cheesy:
A weeks worth of work should do us fine, you'd be pretty much set :)
Daniel.

Long time since I've updated my thread. I've only recently mapped in my boost some more, I have wastegate trouble though, to keep the pressure from rising too much at high rpm, the wastegate is almost complety wound out. This makes it troublesome for it to keep shut at high boost now :( Need to up the baseboost again, see if I can keep it on a reasonable level, but will probably end up at 0.6 bars, which is too high for my liking, really. That said, it's AWESOME to be able just to punch in a few numbers, click "burn to ecu", do a datalog while flooring it, pull over, read datalog, adjust numbers and "burn to ECU", and you're almost done! I had the settings a bit too low at partial throttle, really had to push the pedal to get turbo pressure higher. this I have now adjusted, so I get a little more boost at a smaller throttle-opening.
All in all I'm very happy with the results so far, I just have to figure out some coldstart problems I'm having, the car seems to die on me. Ohh well, it's probably just som afterstart-enrichments I need to figure out ;)
Daniel.

apparently this is the sort of issues you have with megasquirt. I'm sure there's easy ways to fix it but someone I was talking to on the weekend said it was the sort of thing that put him off the idea of using it.

Well, since you are doing everything by your self, YOU need to figure out what sort of fuel the engine craves when cold (cold being 10 different parameters from -40 to 71 degrees celcius), this calls for trial and error, unless you've been sensible and done some measurements with a wideband on standard fueling, before going all out on ms... Measurements I never did myself, and now have to pay for with time... Also, I only need to help the engine to keep running by applying a bit of throttle, and, on top of that, I have no cold-start air-supply, the engine gets the same amount of air whether cold or warm, which might be causing me some of the trouble... Will fit a new (brand spanking new) bosch Auxillary valve today, I think, to bleed some extra air in, when cold... It should help solve the problem too, me thinks...
Of course theres extra work with MS, but that's the fun part :D
How many on here can controll their engine straight through the laptop :cool: ? It's all worth it mate :cheesy:
Daniel.

Long time no update, once again...
Well, fitted the bosch auxillary valve, but still need to have it open up a bit more when hot, to allow for a bit higher idle. It settles at around 700rpm for the time being, which isn't quite high enough for my liking...
Next up is an MOT, hopefully some time next week I'll be doing that! Need to do some small adjustment to the mixture, fit my new fuel-rail and tidy up the electrics...
That said, my new RC engineering-injectors are in, and they are big! Got them pretty cheap, so are upgrading to those from the redtops. 550cc injectors should last for much more power than I'll ever need, or the gearbox will ever take, so that's nice to know, hehe :)
Will update with pictures when I've got the rail fitted soon! :)
Daniel.

550cc?!? Would they not support at least 400hp? And I thought I'd gone over the score getting 400's.

Just around 400hp, yeah... With a 90% dc...
Got them on ebay, but http://www.rceng.com is where they come from, originally... Think they alter them to allow higher flow... Not sure though, and dosn't matter, just as long as they will keep me from running lean on boost :cool:
I know I've gone overboard, but since I've already sold my redtops at a good price, the upgrade is a very limited investment...
Daniel.

I don't think you'll ever bve running lean again Daniel :D I was the same. The Saab injectors seem to go for silly prices compared to brand new ones from specialists.

Do the injectors from a 9-5 Aero fit the 900 inlet manifold?

Well, fitted the bosch auxillary valve, but still need to have it open up a bit more when hot, to allow for a bit higher idle. It settles at around 700rpm for the time being, which isn't quite high enough for my liking...
Surely you just need to follow the procedure for idle adjustment on cars without AICs... with a hot engine, adjust the throttle bypass screw to raise or lower the idle.

Do the injectors from a 9-5 Aero fit the 900 inlet manifold?


Depends, are they bosch-type? They should fit then...


Surely you just need to follow the procedure for idle adjustment on cars without AICs... with a hot engine, adjust the throttle bypass screw to raise or lower the idle.

Problem is, my throttlebody dosn't have an idle-screw, as I'm using the tb of a 2.1L to get the right tps-sensor... I wish I had the correct one though, my idle is not smooth enough for my liking yet, eventhough I have adjusted the AUX valve some more. Need to tune the car a bit after adjusting it, the car hunts a bit now.
Managed to fit my new fuel-rail yesterday, will take pictures of it a little later today :)
Daniel.

why don't you use a T8 throttle? I had this working with my Motec on the 8v nitrous car!

http://www.red-green.co.uk/web/photos/saabpics/8v_tps_001.jpg

A closer look.

http://www.red-green.co.uk/web/photos/saabpics/8v_tps_005.jpg


Could've used some better fastners but it worked well enough with the rusty ones. :lol:

http://www.red-green.co.uk/web/photos/saabpics/8v_tps_003.jpg

Hmm, Emmett, that might work... I just had a 2.1tb sitting in the shed, so I used it... There's a bit fabrication involved with fitting a sensor to the tb, isn't there? I mean, you did make a bracket, right?
Daniel.

yes. the bracket was expertly hand-crafted from the parts used to hold the door handle to the door on a c900. I wanted something adjustable so I could spin the pot around. As it happens, once I'd hooked up the Motec I found I could've just attached the pot statically as the Motec will let you use the throttle pot in either direction and starting and finishing at any point on the range so there was actually no need to swivel the pot. But I didn't know that when I was originally mounting it. :roll:

Voltage has to increase in MS, but it's not a real problem, you can swap wires if needed...
I think I'll give it a go with the T8 TB I have lying around, would like for a more steady idle. For the time beeing, the aux-valve and a vacum hose connected at each side of the tb provides the idle-air, hehe :)
Thought of fitting a 2-wire fast idle solenoid too, and I might just do that, to get the idle completly steady both when cold and warm...
Daniel.

Are you running MS1 or MS2? I bought the MS1 kit with v3 board layout because the Extra code didn't yet support MS2. MS2 supports proper stepper motor idle controllers, and the MS2 Extra code should have closed-loop idle control (just like Lucas CU14).

Throttle bodies from an LH2.2 car with aux air valve have an idle adjustment screw. Wouldn't the Bosch TPS you have there bolt straight up? That coul be the simplest solution.

I use MS1 vers.2.2, no need to go higher, imho...
MS1 kan control a fast idle solenoid, which should be somehow sufficient to cope with your idle needs... :)
The tb from a lh2.2 has been tried, the cut-out in the rod that turns the tps dosn't sit in the right angle... So it has to be altered more to fit, which is a pitty, as it would be the simplest solution!
V3 might be a good solution, but so far, 2.2 has provided all I need...
Daniel.

I was going to stick an aux air valve on the car, or maybe fit one of the fast ile solenoids which MS1 already supports. When MS2 Extra comes along I'll re-fit the Lucas AIC.

I suppose the throttle plate adjustment could be used instead to raise idle.

v3 is just the version of the PCB.

v3 is just the version of the PCB.

I know... It's supposed to protect a few components better... But since I've been using my vers. 2.2 for 2 years almost now with no down-time because of my crappy soldering-skills or components ratteling loose...
Daniel.

WUHUU! :cool:
Passed the inspections today...
MS fitted is a constructive alteration, but all he saw was the open airfilter, and commented, that "we didn't see that, did we?" :D
So that's awesome, next up is moving battery and doing a proper downpipe along with maybe fitting a T3 from a T16 again...
We'll see what happens :D
Daniel.

Congrats Rev. Always nerve-racking with a modified car.

So when are you coming by again to MS my convertible? :cheesy:

As soon as you send the plain-ticket mate, I'll be there!
Seriously, it would be so much fun...! :)
Daniel.

Joe, see when you book the flight for Daniel, can you make it via Glasgow? I'll chip in 10 bucks.

Hehe, lol, albert...
If I need to go over to the UK to pick up a car, I'll give you a shout, if I'm not too far away... We can get busy with your car :D
Daniel.

You do know Glasgow is at the other end of the country?

Do your regulations mean you can't have some modifications? All they want over here is for the car to be safe, have all it's lights and number-plates working and for it to pass the emissions test. They don't care if you have an air-filter or not.

Emmett, I know, but for the right car, you need to travel :D
We have rules about modifications. We can do what we want on out standard engines, as long as the brakes and chassis is approved to it, it's ok.
We can't change the engine for something that has never been in the model (like a T16 in a 99, that's a no-go). Also, this stupid rule on airfilters has come up...
Also, changing to MS is against the law, as this is altering the standard equipment on the car. Crazy car hating country...
Daniel.

In other news, new steering wheel!
Picked up a used leather steering wheel at the junk-yard quite some time ago. The wheel is mint and couldn't help but smile, when walking away with it for £8, great stuff :)
Pooh picture from mobile-phone:
http://img353.imageshack.us/img353/8382/nyeratni9.th.jpg (http://img353.imageshack.us/my.php?image=nyeratni9.jpg)
Another thing I haven't shared, is my new fuel rail is on the car! Wow what a difference. Along with fitting that, I did a bit of tiding up. The wiring was a mess, so a few hours spend with some tape and other nice stuff, made the engine bay look pretty decent!
I'm happy with the way the fuel-rail is made, looks very nice.
http://img170.imageshack.us/img170/8332/billede001bl1.th.jpg (http://img170.imageshack.us/my.php?image=billede001bl1.jpg)

Both are clickable thumbs...:)
Daniel.

That wheel looks in cracking nick Daniel. Shame we have to see a big pale hairy leg as well :o

Is the FPR welded straight onto the fuel rail?

Still showing -431 injectors in that pic. Have you fitted the new ones yet?

Shame we have to see a big pale hairy leg as well :o

Stupid danish summer, Albert, I actually tan easy :D


Is the FPR welded straight onto the fuel rail?

No, it's bolted to the fuel-rail.
It's a 3-bar, but I found the car leaning out a lot after fitting the rail with the same injectors, so need to measure the pressure, will do so tomorrow. After that, I can calculate the correct required fuel in MS. THEN I will fit the new injectors and start mapping. It will run silly rich at first, but should prove good fun for me, and more practise at mapping... Just wondering if I can get the pulse-width @ idle low enough, but hey, who cares, as long as it's as steady as it is now... :)
The wheel is very nice indeed, perfect condition and wont be taken out of the car again if I can help it...!
So to answer your question, Ejenner, I will be changing to the larger injectors during the weekend, I think! My brother has my wideband at the moment, when I get that back (tomorrow me thinks), I can fit the other injectors...! :)
Daniel.

Passed the tests with almost flying colours. During the process of getting the rear brakes to brake properly, I managed to warp the front disc a little more than good is... SO, it failed on warped front rotors, lol. Changed them, and went through the re-test without any trouble... I'm happy!
Daniel.

How the *^"k do you warp the front discs while sorting the rears?

By braking really hard from high speed a couple of times... The rotors where on their way out, this just put them over the top...
Daniel.

By braking really hard from high speed a couple of times... The rotors where on their way out, this just put them over the top...
Daniel.


REALLY HARD! - sweet work.

They where warped a bit, but not enough to make a change necessary in my book. The hard braking showed during the test...
New rotors fitted, problem went away...
Daniel.

So, they have been sitting around for a while, letting me gain courage to fit them... I'm talking about the 550cc injectors from RC-engineering... Got them off of ebay for a lot less then I think they are worth, and so far, my impressions are great!
They have replaced the red trionic-injectors that used to fuel the car.
Chaning injectors in MS is just so freaking easy, Daniel has tha best injectors and supercharger on-the-fly programmable ECU-puter in teh nets!
I have been having some lean conditions since I fitted the new fuel-rail with the integrated fuel-pressure regulator. The regulator is a fault, but since it's build into the rail, and not easy replaceable (although it will be removed at some point soon), I opted for a second regulator, adjusted to 3bars of pressure, to make sure the pressure in the fuel-rail is as consistent as it has to be.
Altering the Req-fuel in MS and then doing some fine-tuning is normally the only thing needed, when changing injectors... So it was today for me, although changing the regulator meant, I had to pay some attention to the ve-table. This is now almost fully adjusted back as it should be, and I have no trouble to get the car running as lean as I want it, not when idling, not when cruising, it's awesome! Need to adjust idle a bit more, had it running at 10.8afr tonight, which is "a bit" on the rich side, to say the least...
As for boosting, I had the mitsu up and running 1.2 bar, but got knock. Need to give it a wee bit for fuel up in the higher areas, but, I have boost creep... :(
I HATE the mitsu wastegate design, and might opt for the T3-turbo again, because I can't get baseboost low enough, to stop creeping, and if I do, my top-end suffers, because the gate is blown open!!! ARHG!
So, I might need to change the turbo to something better and more oldskool... Like the T16 T3 I have lying around...The decision is not made yet, but think I might change it... I need stable baseboost, to make boost-control in MS work like it should... I want around 1.1 bar steady, and I can get that without hassle... If the wastegate wasn't acting up :(
Otherwise, quite chuffed with things, seems like the engine is doing quite alright, which is great! :)
Daniel.

. Need to give it a wee bit.....


Otherwise, quite chuffed with things....

Your English scares me Fischer :lol:

Good to hear you can get the 550's working at idle and cruise nae bother. You are an inspiration to us all Reverend. Although that Forsyth one still needs some work to get him converted.

Lol, thanks albert... I'm nothing but a little guy in shorts, having megasquirting fun... :)
Still annoyed by the boost-creep though... Money is in short supply, I've just finished my masters but have no job yet, so when I do get funds, I hope to be able to get a T3/T4 hybrid maybe. That would take care of all my future boosting needs, provide steady baseboost, and have a large exhaust-housing to prevent backpressure getting too high...
Albert, when are you taking the megasquirt plunge?
And thanks regarding english, I do my best... Althoug I did find quite a few pronounciations that where not correct in the last post... Ohh the heck with it, as long as you guys can understand it, it's no matter...
Mr. Forsyth needs to wake and smell the roses. Don't know if he has the white one back on the street after the gearbox-change?
Daniel.

Hi Daniella.

After I changede my actuator to a t3 actuator on my mitsu turbo, I have a more stedy boost it helped alot, I change it for a new one. I think I have one more some where I got in Sweden last time we where there.
I had to mod. the bracket a bit, but it works.

Daniel, you'd love a t3/t4, I do and I rule this world....just kidding, but you probably would they bolt right up, have all the benifits of a T3, sound really different but cool, spool about the same as a T3, but can put out plenty of air, I am faster at 15 psi than at 20 psi with a stock t3

T3/T4's are the business :cheesy:

I'm off work this week and we're only going away for a couple of days so I'm going to have another go at installing it.

I was up at Alan's the other day (he welded a bung on for me for the LC1) and his engine bay's looking great. He's also got loads of lovely shiny parts to put on the car. It's not on the road yet but I think he should up and running again within the next month or so.

Breakin: I have heard quite nice things about the hybrids, and they are becoming cheaper and cheaper! I'm going to opt for a chinese version, just for the fun of it... ;)

Hopefully I'll be able to get a job soon, lol!
I think I'm getting quite a bit of backpressure as things are right now, with the small turbine on the mitsu... A T3 should take care of that...
Daniel.

Daniel, be careful with the chinese turbo's. I'm not gonna say there all bad, but I know that two of my friends were running them and they both failed after very little use.

I am in Denmark, I have just imported my car from the UK, so I have the steering wheel in the "wrong" side, but drive on the right side of the road... It turns a few heads once in a while, hehe :)
Daniel.

How do get on with registration for a RHD car in a LHD country? Here in Australia it's illegal to drive a left-hand drive car if it's less than 30 years old. Only things like specialised trucks used for garbage pick-up, street sweeping, etc. are allowed to be LHD or dual-control.

My 81 turbo is close to getting it's first important performance mod which is a T16 intercooler. I've installed a boost gauge (first pic of the test-installation is here (http://www.classicsaab.net/gallery2/main.php?g2_itemId=8117) - it's now connected and working with a dash mat fitted around it) which is good since I can now get accurate numbers. I get about 10 psi maximum boost which seems more than enough to give the 8v engine extra ability, but would like to try more. Being a non-APC engine I'm considering possibly putting APC on the car just for the knock control, or a knocksense unit without any actually control of the engine to tell me when knock happens.

The car is not going to have mods to the fuel injection for the forseeable future though one possibility is a hybrid t3/t4 turbo as most people like to use them as t3 retrofits for the extra boost pressure without needing to mash around changing stuff connected up to it.

Craig.

DB: Agreed, I will get one from at trusted danish supplier instead. That will provide me with warranty too ;)
c900: It's definetly legal to drive rhd cars in Denmark, no problem with that at all. You'll even get a lower reg-fee, as the car is harder to sell and not as valuable in Denmark, because of the rhd.
As for your performance-mods. I would be very carefull with turning the boost up more, as the 8v injection-system isn't going to deliver enough fuel for higher boost-levels. Been there, done that. The intercooler will be a nice mod though, although a front-mount would be even better ;)
Definetly do the knock-mod, that will help you a lot, I'm sure...
Daniel.

I just did a nice mod with the cold start injector on my T16. It's triggered according to manifold pressure. So when my boost gets to 1-bar the cold-start injector clicks on. I just used an over-pressure switch to make this work. I adjusted the switch to turn on at the correct time and I used a volt meter to find out which terminals I should connect the electrical connectors to. It's ironic that the over-pressure switch was used in the past to stop the car boosting too hard and now I've wired it up the otherway around so it does the oppsite of what it was supposed to do.

LOL, Emmett, It's a rude, crude and ugly way to do it, but it works ;)
Only trouble is, cylinder 433 might not get enough fuel...
Daniel.

Went to a rolling road meet today. A spur-of-the-moment kind of thing.
So, I found out, I still have increasing baseboost :evil:
Actually, I found that out on the way to the meet. What is a guy to do? I adjusted the baseboost down a bit. Guess the result? Can't keep max boost :(
The trouble with the increasing baseboost is, I get knock when it creeps to 1.2 bar. The car is mapped to 1.1 bar, which it can cope with no trouble, but with the creep, I get knock. SO, started to adjust spark, to no avail, it just keeps increasing more, and knocks. This is because of back-pressure I think. So, had to adjust down the baseboost, now I can only keep 0.8 bar.
I decided to go on the rollers on the lower baseboost, fix the creep with a better actuator or by changing the turbo. Produced some fine numbers, my AFR was around 11:1 as wanted all the way through. Power would increase by leaning the mixture out a bit, but I like the extra cooling to keep the pistons cooler and the engine happy, especially on the T8's, where the heads can crack if unlucky...

So to the curves (clickable thumbs):
HP:
http://img96.imageshack.us/img96/8108/hkcz7.th.jpg (http://img96.imageshack.us/my.php?image=hkcz7.jpg)

Torque (NM):
http://img258.imageshack.us/img258/1446/nmzu6.th.jpg (http://img258.imageshack.us/my.php?image=nmzu6.jpg)

191.5hp and 289.6nm, @ 0.8bar.
There's room for improvement regarding my spark-map, as I had to
go conservative on it, when the car knocked on the creeping baseboost. Normally, I think the power-curve would have been increasing where it drops, if I left the ignition-map alone... Ohh well, you really need a rolling-road session instead, to be able to get things spot on. Also, the only mapping I have done on my own car, is when I'm driving it myself. When mapping the green 99T16 beast, I was the tuner, the owner drove the car. This makes mapping SOOO much easier, and I really want to do that sometime soon on my own car...
So, let me know what you guys think, comments?
Daniel.

I am planing to get on the rolling road at FDM, you know where I use to get it rolled. I then have the rolling road to speed up on, I have planing to do it after I have had it (synet) MOT in next month. If we can get the time to fit, maybe when I can borrow the rolling road, you have time to come aswell, but dont tell anyone, I dont what all the club to come, I dont think FDM what all thise people there!

I dont understand whats going on with your baseboost, mine is rock steady at 0.5 bar. My dawes device is set at 0.8 now, it holds that to about 3500 rpm, and slowly goes down a bit, I think my stock by pass valve is leaking.

Lars, sounds like a great idea if we can get everything to fit :)
As always, time is the issue!
We had the same trouble with Henriks' dawes too, it looses boost a bit, it overshoots a bit (we hit the overboost-switch in Megasquirt, that made some nice flames, I think :D ).
I did have time to look on your newest MSQ and log, not a long look, but it looks quite good I think, you are able to up the boost some more very soon! All the small driveability-adjustments will be something you will be doing for the next year or so :)
Daniel.

Well, fitted my other turbo today!
Install wen ok, with the typical bits and bobs giving you some extra "fun" (like the return oil-gasket that I accidently pulled apart).
First impressions are pretty good! 0.92 bar (close to 14psi) is my new set boost pressure. No knock so far (other than a very small amount I got rid of with some minor adjustments) and more power in the topend, the way the car pulls compared to the boost pressure seems more "right" now, than with the mitsu-unit. So I'm happy and satisfied, nice to have stable baseboost, and now actual mapable boostpressure, since the wastegate dosn't get blown open! :)
Baseboost is set @ 0.5 increasing to 0.58 bar @ 5500 rpm, this is completly acceptable! More info will be added when I get some more miles under the hood. There is a little more lag now, but again, driveability is just fin, boost builds @ 1900rpm. Max boost can't be compared, as I don't allow max boost before 2800 rpm, because of the gearbox...
Daniel.

Sounds good Daniel. Well done. Did you pick up any of those oil-return gaskets when we were at the parts sale in Sweden? I think I've got about a hundred of them. They only work on some lines though. It's not a universal size. It's also very easy to make a gasket out of cardboard from a Kellogs box. But you've obviously had no major trouble in that area since you've got the turbo on the car now. Excellent!

oh yeah - I remember you mentioned it before, but which Turbo was it that you fitted?

Fitted a standard T3 Garrett oil+water cooled turbo from a C900 T16. It's a great turbo, it really is. Positive boost @ 1800 rpm, holding 1 bar passed 5500rpm. Mapped the car, so now I have no knock and constant stable boost... Gotta love that :)
So think I have 200hp in the car, so I'm close to my target of 220!
Next up is fitting a 7th primary and making a proper 3" bend out of the turbo... Should be a nice upgrade aswell...!
Daniel.

Positive boost @ 1800 rpm, holding 1 bar passed 5500rpm.
Daniel.

How much boost at 1800rpm?

Its a good sign that your holding 1 bar at 5500rpms, does it tail off at all in 5th gear on a long run or can it still hold the 1 bar.

Your probably over your 200Hp now;)

Just above vacuum, I don't allow much boost below 2800rpm to keep the tranny safe...
Here you can see my boost-pressure (clickable thumb):
http://img208.imageshack.us/img208/9531/mitladetrykfb6.th.jpg (http://img208.imageshack.us/my.php?image=mitladetrykfb6.jpg)
The blue line is pressure, the yellow one is rpm. In real life, the boost-pressure is ROCK steady, no taper, no alternating no nothing.
There is a dip in boost to the right, that's me letting of the throttle, because I got a little bit of knock, so nothing to do with the stable boost-pressure...
Need to adjust the ignition a little bit more, as I still get the occasional knock in high gear/high boost/righ rpm situations. Better move on to modding the Megasquirt unit and APC-unit so Megasquirt can alter ignition when knock occours...
Daniel.

Do the injectors from a 9-5 Aero fit the 900 inlet manifold?
Depends, are they bosch-type? They should fit then...

Some of the 9-5 Aero injectors have air intakes around the edges. I think these are to keep the cone spray pattern narrow with increasing air speed (to avoid the fuel ending up on the inlet manifold runner walls).

They surely won't fit in a B202 or B212 inlet manifold?

Do you have a pictures Matthew?
I don't know how they look and measure up, so I can't really tell you for sure... :roll:
Otherwise, fuel-injectors aren't the greatest expense if you go through ebay...
Daniel.

I dont know about anyone else, but I'm really missing all the pictures from peoples build ups

Can you post more pictures dude?

All this talk is getting a bit ZzZzZzzzzzzz

Well, I documented all of my rebuild going to MS from K-jet...
So that's something at least... :)
Daniel

Honkey, wheres your project thread, detailing how you got your standard 900i to 130mph?

I usually have too dirty fingers to take pictures of the progress (I did take pictures of the complete MS-rebuild though), so usually it's just the finished project I take pictures of.
There's even a picture of my boost and rpm after fitting the new turbo... That has to count for something ;)
Daniel.


PS: A project-thread like the one Phil mentioned would be cool :cheesy:

Words and complete sentences are waste of time. Am not convinced unless pictures are proof. probably just plain stock rebuilding jobs. your graphs are silly MS Paint drawings prankster. dont be jelous of my best on the net project thread.

dont be jelous of my best on the net project thread.

:lol::lol:

It is possible to get a 900i to 130mph on the right road, I have taken a N reg 1996, 1.6 Nissan Primera up to 130mph, thats 110Hp stock and it was not even stock it was a dog.;)

Joe out of worst Iron on the netz, get ya azz outa my thread. U got worst fuel-setup on teh net. YOU are the drawing biatch on this forums!

Dont' hate the best threads on the net!

Honkey, wheres your project thread, detailing how you got your standard 900i to 130mph?

haha having a Cold Air Intake isnt standard buddy boy ;)

I'm building up my 900i and in due time it will claim the superstar status it deserves

here is a teaser for the WHITE HOT (http://www.megaupload.com/?d=6WH24SF6) 900i

Lol, a cold air intake... That would probably provide you with a net gaing of around 1hp, 2 if you're very lucky :D
Daniel.

Lol, a cold air intake... That would probably provide you with a net gaing of around 1hp, 2 if you're very lucky :D
Daniel.

I was thinking the same, but combined with an intercooler (T16 version or an FMIC) the improvement should be quite noticable.

I've got a T16 intercooler here ready to go into my 81 8V turbo once I collect all the additional bits. The radiator support doesn't have the mounting tabs, etc. for the intercooler mounts so I'll come up with a way to create something that does the same job. Main thing at present is sourcing longer oil cooler hoses so the engine oil cooler can be mounted on the other side of the radiator support.

Craig.

I was thinking the same, but combined with an intercooler (T16 version or an FMIC) the improvement should be quite noticable.

I've got a T16 intercooler here ready to go into my 81 8V turbo once I collect all the additional bits. The radiator support doesn't have the mounting tabs, etc. for the intercooler mounts so I'll come up with a way to create something that does the same job. Main thing at present is sourcing longer oil cooler hoses so the engine oil cooler can be mounted on the other side of the radiator support.

Craig.

Well, he's talking about his 900i, that means a non-turbo injection car... So that can't be compared to anything with intercooler in my book ;)
A T16 IC is definetly a nice upgrader, although a frontmounted-one is quite a bit better, I must say, having tried both versions...
Daniel.

This just in!
Knock-protection is up and running!
Will take a few pictures tomorrow...
How do you do it then?
1. Connect a piece of wire to Pin5 on JP1, leave a part not insulated.
2. Connect a resistor between 1kohm and 5kohm to Pin8 in JP1
3. Connect the other end of the resistor to the part of the wire in Pin5 that we left open (not insulated)
4. Connect the other end of the wire to a suitable output. I've used X14, as it already has a wire in the wiring loom, that I don't use for anything else.

This sorts the MS-part of things. The connection between Pin5 and Pin8 is used to put a 5v-signal into the knock-input, when the car isn't knocking. The resistor is there, so that the 5v-signal is weak enough, so that the ground-signal from the APC-unit can overpower the 5v signal.

Now to the APC-unit. I'm not sure if the mod is really necessary, but I did it, so I'm sure the signal from the APC-unit is powerful enough to overpower the 5v-signal.
What you do, is simply fit a piece of wire over resistor R82 on both the new and old APC-version (14pin and 25pin). This overrules the resistance that keeps our normal LED's from exploding, when doing the knock-led mod.
You can keep the knock-led, you just have to use the same ground-signal from the APC-unit, and then power this via pin26 on Megasquirt. Otherwise, I THINK it should be enough just to fit a resistor in the power-supply to the knock-led, but I want to check up on that, before trying it out...
All for now, I'm just happy I've got knock security again :)
Daniel.

Hey, and would you look at that, 10 pages of project-thread :D
Daniel.

Lol, a cold air intake... That would probably provide you with a net gaing of around 1hp, 2 if you're very lucky :D
Not so.

A properly engineered cold-air intake is worth quite a lot of power, additional spark advance/boost and drivability. It's a well known modifcation on the Scooby tuning scene (and a lot of those guys put us to shame).

Done crap it's worth nothing; done well it's worth a lot - same with everything really.

Remember that the temperature of air entering the combustion chamber begins with the temperature of air entering the air filter. Hotter there = hotter air everywhere else.

But still, 130mph in a c900 injection, Matthew, come on... :o:)
Of course cold air is better, we agree on that. The most gain I've ever seen or heard about, is on the 180hp Yamaha R1. At speed, the ram-air effect provides the engine with another 9hp, taking it up to 189hp.
I highly doubt you would see this much gain on a saab-engine...
Anyway, I'll be out testing the new knock-system some more today, think I want to alter some of the settings a wee bit... :)
Daniel.

Cant I just use a 12volt led instead from an alarm unit? You know, a led you can connect direct on the battery!

I'm not sure Lars, I will look into it today. Want to be sure so I don't fry the knock-input in Megasquirt. I can live without the LED's, but they would be nice to maintain, just so you know what's going on.
One of the nice things about the mod is that it will react and retard the timing faster than the APC in the old days would drop boost, hence providing even better safety than the APC did, without dropping boost. This is only so, though, if the amount of ignition-retard is enough to remove the knock. If the car is setup in a proper manor, you shouldn't experience much knock anyway, thus a few degrees of retard should provide enough to remove any knock.
Daniel.

Well done getting it working. The only slight issue is that theres no way to say "remove timing, and if that fails, remove boost". If you ask it to remove boost, it removes it at the same time as removing timing ( or so it seems ), which seems a bit heavy handed. I hope, as you say, that removing timing proves to be enough.

I just looked at http://www.msextra.com/manuals/MS_Extra_Hardware_Manual.htm#knock

That seems to be the way you have set up the megasquirt. I'm not sure that the extra resistor is necessary. Post up a picture of your knock detection settings!

Wouldn't it depend on your gearbox ratio? This was my 8v with type-6 and if I haddn't been running out
of runway then it could've gone a bit faster. This was with Motec controlling the ignition though.
Over 120mph in an 8v. Reckon if it was on a hill it would've gone off the clock. So long as there
was enough rpm left. But that would be cheating and I don't know of any sloped runways,
racing circuits or German autobahns.

http://www.red-green.co.uk/web/photos/saabpics/9008v/8v_speedo.jpg

Ejenner, your 8v looks to be nicely in the power curve there. Since the motec is there, its hardly stock though :) But, the stock 16v ignition is really good.

A bit more work, swap in the type 8's, and my car should be able for 150mph on the next autobahn run :)

Wouldn't it depend on your gearbox ratio? This was my 8v with type-6 and if I haddn't been running out
of runway then it could've gone a bit faster. This was with Motec controlling the ignition though.
Over 120mph in an 8v. Reckon if it was on a hill it would've gone off the clock. So long as there
was enough rpm left. But that would be cheating and I don't know of any sloped runways,
racing circuits or German autobahns.

http://www.red-green.co.uk/web/photos/saabpics/9008v/8v_speedo.jpg

Type 6's give 35 km/h per 1000rpm, which would be just under 110mph there. Speedo's lie.

Hmm, I thought the c900 speedo was fairly accurate as these things go. Once you have the correct size wheels and tyres on of course.

The RPM meter could be wrong as well.

Well done getting it working. The only slight issue is that theres no way to say "remove timing, and if that fails, remove boost". If you ask it to remove boost, it removes it at the same time as removing timing ( or so it seems ), which seems a bit heavy handed. I hope, as you say, that removing timing proves to be enough.

I just looked at http://www.msextra.com/manuals/MS_Extra_Hardware_Manual.htm#knock

That seems to be the way you have set up the megasquirt. I'm not sure that the extra resistor is necessary. Post up a picture of your knock detection settings!

Well, for starters, you'll map the car on the fuel you want to be using, so it wont knock. This means, the knock-protection is purely that, for protection, if you happen to hit a bad tank of fuel, or it's really hot outside.
As the code dosn't operate boost in closed loop yet (well it works, but it dosn't work very well), it's not possible to lower the boost when knock occours. Will hopefully work at some point. Pulling just 10kpa of boost will remove all knock, especially combined with retarding ignition. I have had some small knock-issues, but removing just 1 og 2 degrees on the ignition (The car was running rich) removed this. Allowing MS to remove up to 5 degrees will give you the security you need. This is my 0.02 :)
These are my knock-settings, remember I haven't driven the car 5 miles with knock-detection active:
http://img529.imageshack.us/img529/7852/mineknocksettingsuu5.th.jpg (http://img529.imageshack.us/my.php?image=mineknocksettingsuu5.jpg)

Daniel.

Cool. Yeah, its better to retard ignition. When you get a bad sudden knock on the apc, when it does knock, it pulls the boost right back, rather annoying. I think it might be better to have it run right on the threshold of knock. Could map it on a really cold day. Then you'll get extra power whenever the weather is cold :) And the system will pull it back a degree or 2 on normal days.

But still, 130mph in a c900 injection, Matthew, come on... :o:)
Whoops... I missed that bit of the thread :lol: Hell I couldn't even get my T16 (type 6s) to 130MPH.

not trying hard enough Matthew...!

the proper way to design an air-intake is to put a thin-edge, oval shaped pipe straight out the front into the air-stream. The pipe needs to extend about 1 or 2 inches forward of the surrounding area. Forget about these smooth, rolled-in tubes you see sometimes. Not the way to do it.

Haven't tried max-speed in my T8. No need to, but I know it will boost 1 bar @ 5500rpm in fifth (German Autobahn, of course)... Stopped there, as there is no point in going faster, really.
Will be looking forward to seeing the car with a 7th primary, I have one lying around, just need to get it fitted!
Phil: you could start with getting knock-input into the APC. After that you could keep the APC controlling boost. The car will know adjust ignition when knocking before the APC adjust boost down. If there's still knock APC will drop boost. But, this means you still have the APC controlling boost... This is nowhere near as nice as MS controlling it... :)
Daniel.

Nah, I will not be doing that. I modded my apc to 900aero stage2 spec, but theres still loads of boost taper. I'll run with a conservative boost map on ms until I get knock input sorted, something like 0.6 bar going up to 0.8 at higher rpm. Matthew - I got to 135 on a derestricted section of the autobahn in no time at all. 140 would be possible I think.

Small update!
I decided I want to try an idle-valve on the old T8, hoping for a more stable idle, which would be nice. I therefore had to make LED17 my new spark-output instead of the Fidle (Fast idle) I was using before. I picked up a 2-wire bosch-sensor from a i16v from the scrap-yard in a very nice condition. This should probably get the job done! I haven't decided whether to mod the MS-ECU to cope with a larger current (by installing a tougher transistor), so that I can drive the Fidle-valve directly from MS, or if I should run it over a relay. The easiest solution is probably to mod the ECU, but I don't have parts for it... So we'll see what happens :)
Daniel.

Good stuff. I'd recommend if at all possible that you test the idle valve on a driving i16v first, and clean it out if necessary. Theres a good post recently on the workshop on bringing a fairly dead valve back to life. I'm saying this cos I found the valve on my parts car was disconnected, hopefully I'll be able to get it working.

Thanks for the heads-up Phil, I'll definitely be cleaning the valve before fitting it, looks almost mint though.
I did some more reading, and found out I need to replace the resistor in the MS-ECU, as working through a relay, will not make me able to pulse the Fidle, only using it as an on/off valve. I want to be able to pulse it, so I need a tougher resistor. Only trouble is, it's more than difficult getting hold of electronic bits where I live, so it's online-order, I guess, still annoying though.
Will return with more updates when ready! :)
Daniel.

Wuhuuu!
More news...
Idle control is up and running!
Crappy photo of the mod to MS it self:
http://img144.imageshack.us/img144/8163/billede069mo1.th.jpg (http://img144.imageshack.us/my.php?image=billede069mo1.jpg)

What I did, was remove transistor Q5, fit three wires, then hook up a darlington transistor TIP122 instead, as this can handle the current and drive the 0 280 140 516 idle valve directly, the standard transistor can only handle a relay, and thereby only do on/off control. So I
ve learned something yet again :D
Still need to fine-tune it, but warm-idle is practically spot on so far, so that's awesome! :)
Daniel.

Great! Ze Reverend has done it again... :)
Well mate, you've got another soul for the MS-Church... it's time to open another topic on that one I guess.

Danke, Waxle ;)
Yeah, it's running pretty good! I need to do some more fine-tuning, will get on it tomorrow, it's very cool to get a stable idling T8, I must say... :)
Daniel.

I'll tell you what... I'm pretty tempted to get the 99 on MS at some point. It's either that or work out how to tune the LH 2.2 and DI/APC chips... people already know how to do it so must be possible... can't be that hard.

LH 2.2 isn't worth it, I am maxed out with my RRFPR at 20 psi of boost... and I know with proper fuel and spark tailoring, more power over a greater range is possible, I hope to get megasquirt in my car before spring/summer of 2008:cheesy:

I can get up to 28 / 30 psi with my setup but typically 22 is where the gauge will rest on a long blast. As I'm only using a TE05 it tends to taper towards the higher RPM but that's just the dynamics of the TE05 causing that issue.

I'm using a standard 3.5 bar FPR rather than the RRFPR and I've got red -431 injectors from the 9000 aero doing the fuel but I also have a fuel chip for the LH 2.2 and a boost chip for the di/apc box.

There's no reason why you couldn't tune your boost, fuel and ignition settings if you had access to the maps. All of my setting have already been tweaked but I had to pay for it and it's only basically better than standard and not properly tuned for my setup. Having access to tune would make a difference.

A guy I know in Denmark have tried to map his lh 2.2 almost realtime, as you can connect a cable to lh and load a different map into the chip. Still, with a custom chip, the car runs too rich and too lean in different points of the map... Guess what, he's going MS after all :)

As for my idle-project, I need to tune it some more, it dosn't work proper at cold idle, so this needs to be sorted, via a bit of mapping :)
Daniel.

BRILLIANT Daniel
thanks for directing me to your thread!
this is exactly what i needed for my T8
ill be following in your footsteps so let us know what goes wrong :cheesy:
cheers

howdy
was just reading through your the thread....man you have done some cool work to that car much more than I expected. Pretty nice with the spare engine...my car came with a spare engine and tranny...now all I hafto do is convince MY brother to take up machining!

I'm a complete newbie to this engine mod business and I was wondering where you learned the various things you know?

I figured i could push 200hp with just a bigger IC and super short actuator rod
is the MS really necessary?

I know this is super annoying but is there a thread somewhere that can tell me what i need to do and know so i dont hafto ask rediculous questions?

I dont know specs at all...no clue about mapping.....no idea why you would change your ignition system blah blah blah

but there is no way in hell im paying some ******* to do it for me: you gotta earn the boost!!!

Hi...
Well, the project is sort of on hold, because the car really needs a cosmetic overhaul. Will begin sometime this year, is my best bet.
And where did I learn this, hmm...
A good idea is to read "Forced Induction Performance Tuning" By Graham A. Bell, it's REALLY good, and give you a very nice introduction to what forced induction is.
As for increasing boost, APC is the way. Search for my thread, "newest APC-mod", or something like that, all the info in that, you need. Shorteing the wastegate-rod is probably the worst way of gaining power...!
I changed my Fuel-system (and ignition-system for that matter), because the 8v-system isn't good enough to provide the driveability and power I wanted from the car.
I think I can claim to have one of the most driveable T8's out there, because of the engine-management especially...

Daniel.

you gotta earn the boost!!!

I like that one... pretty good. :lol:

I think I can claim to have one of the most driveable T8's out there, because of the engine-management especially...

Engine wise... maybe, but how are you going to setup your suspension and handling. What are your plans? I've got two cars so I have different plans for each one. The 99 is hard, low, stiff shocks, finely tuned shocks, springs and camber, track-tyres... The Carlsson will have high quality shocks (still to be sourced) but the focus will be more on the idea of fast town driving and comfortable cruising.. more of an all-rounder than the 99. Therefore, I have copies of the original Saab sports springs for the Carlsson. The tyres are likely to be Toyo Proxies T1 for quiteness, comfort and good all-round grip. I will be adding more sound-proofing to the car so I can have a performance exhaust that sounds good from outside but does not annoy me on the motorway. These are the plans for my 'driveable' cars. What's your goal?

True Emmett, definetly only engine-wise.
As for the handling-issue, I'm actually aiming for the exact same thing as you are with your carlsson, maybe with koni adjustables and using a lowering kit, as is on the car now.
Definetly want a ROAR when pushing it, but also nice comfort, wondering if a couple of 9k aero-seats will find it's way into the car, they might...
Daniel.

Take care of the bad rust first! You should be able to keep this car a long time, map it for E100 when thats widely available.

Are you only thinking about Koni's or might you consider Bilsteins? Which Bilsteins does your car have Phil? Have you tried the Koni's?

If the Koni's were the best you could get then I think I'd be a little dissapointed. I think I'd like a setting between 'medium' and 'hard' for the rear dampers. On my dads car 'medium' is too bouncy... I'll have to have another look at 'hard' though. The car had been quite 'crashy' so I've just turned them down a notch but it might have been a mistake. It might have been only the fronts that needed to be adjusted. That's with the PFS universal rear springs.

What concerns me about the Bilsteins is that you can't adjust them at all? You can buy 'sports' or 'replacement' - what's the difference?

AVO's - my 99 has AVO's at the front. They've been on for a while and they are 10-way adjustable on the car. I have just ordered the matching rear shocks and they are 20-way adjustable. They have not arrived yet. AVO's are very cheap so I guess there must be a compromise in the design somewhere? But I like the combination of cheapness and adjustability. I also wasn't able to eaisly get hold of anything else for the front of the 99. Bilsteins were listed but the importer for the UK didn't really seem that comitted to supplying a set for me! (that's Euro Car Parts BTW :evil: )

I've the bilstein HD's ( Heavy duty ). I think thats what you are referring to by "sport" They are a thicker shock than standard, yellow with blue dust covers. The difference is that they are much stiffer than standard shocks. If you don't want stiff suspension, don't buy them. My car has terrible ride quality on crap Irish roads, but really handles well on a good road. Any of the roads we drove in Denmark and Sweden were of great quality - I wouldn't have wanted any other shocks or springs on my car for those roads.

It did concern me that they weren't adjustable - but everyone with the konis seems to just set the fronts to one setting, the rears to another, and leave them there.
I'd also heard of people having to increase the stiffness on the konis after a while because they'd become softer.
Adjustable shocks should be easily adjustable, preferably from within the car.

Nothing settled at all yet, first things first, and that's cosmetics... REALLY need to go over her very thorougly, she deserves it and needs it badly... Too bad to have the 9k aero to use some cash on now as well (need to pay it off first, so far only doing inexpensive mods to it, like home-tuning the Trionic-software).
Have only had one experience with koni's, and that was very positive on the hardest settings. Very responsive, yet comfortable still.
Earlier I have thought about AVO's as well, think that the cheapness might be because they are oil-dampers, and not gas?
All this talk is making me hungry for working on the 900, too bad I have it in my parents garage 100km (60 miles) from my home, and no possibility to work on it where I live... Combined with a 47 hour workweek and semi-pro handball carrier, dosn't leave much time for seroius work on the 900...
So far, my plan is as follows:
* Remove complete interior
* Remove engine
* Remove wiring harness
* Remove suspension-bits and bobs
* Get overview over rusty bits
* Figure out who should do the bodywork - would like to do it myself, but the time needed to do so, will make the project go south, I would never finish it. So a friend or a shop needs to be hired

Afterwards, the car needs to be prepped and painted, colour will be black, carlsson-kit will be fitted (have the complete kit), and pondering over if I want to change the hubs and handbrake to the 88-on version...
Engine-wise, I will upgrade to a T3/T4 turbo and maybe a cam, but will leave it at that... Around 200-220 hp is the goal, I'm practically there now, but you all know how it is, more wants more... :)
Daniel.

So did you fit the IN4001 diode accross the valves terminals like it says in the megamanual? I have already replaced Q5 with a TIP122, but I'm not sure about the diode? Would you like to share your megatune idle control settings with me?

Hi!
I didn't do the Diode, it wasn't used when I first did it, and haven't had a problem at all with it so far...
So just did the TIP!

I don't have my settings on this laptop, but on the other one. I can post them tomorrow...! :)
Daniel.

You can see same mod as Daniels here http://www.saabklubdanmark.dk/index.php?name=PNphpBB2&file=viewtopic&t=12411&postdays=0&postorder=asc&sid=682c986a1f8de84bc84c1cf6c765fe07
If you are running MS1 you dont need the diode like Daniels says.

http://www.diyautotune.com/catalog/pcbv3-valve-control-tip120-39modkit39-p-134.html

Yeah I saw that diyautotune info.............that's what got me wondering if I needed it or not. Kaas, you need to fill me in on the ignition set-up you are running on your car. That looks like a crank sensor from a '94 and newer 2.3 turbo.....correct?

No, it is a crank sensor from a VW group, Seat VW diffenret engine types, so it is easy to come by. VW part no. 037 906 433 A or 037 906 433 B or 037 906 433 C

http://www.ljbk.dk/saab/dhb08/dhb08%20(3).jpg

As for the module it is a dual module like this .
http://www.refako.dk/images/002/D074.jpg
Bosch part no. 0 227 100 200


And for the coil it is a bosch motorsport, wasted spark type!
http://www.bosch-motorsport.de/pdf/components/ignition_coils/2x2.pdf

http://www.ljbk.dk/saab/dhb08/dhb08%20(4).jpg

http://www.ljbk.dk/saab/dhb08/dhb08%20(5).jpg

http://www.ljbk.dk/saab/dhb08/dhb08%20(6).jpg

http://www.ljbk.dk/saab/dhb08/dhb08%20(7).jpg

http://www.ljbk.dk/saab/dhb08/dhb08%20(24).jpg

http://www.ljbk.dk/saab/dhb08/dhb08%20(27).jpg

Sorry Daniel for stealing your post :-)

Hehe, it's ok Lars. The conversion regarding wasted spark (on Henrik's car) is the exact conversion we have been talking about earlier. I just got this little thing in the door today, I'm doing 2 different MS projects right now, one of them will include this coil...
http://img384.imageshack.us/img384/7862/bild0208ra6.th.jpg (http://img384.imageshack.us/my.php?image=bild0208ra6.jpg)

Should be good fun! Now, only thing I need is two connectors, 1 for the coil, and 1 for the ignition-module, and then also a ignition module... Will pick the module up locally, but where did you get the connectors?
Daniel.

Well I've got close loop idle working pretty good now. The only issue I'm having is when I first start the car. The rpm's go up and then they drop fast and the car almost stalls or it will overshoot badly and start oscillating. If I just catch it by putting my foot on the gas it will settle and be fine. Do I need to increase the closure time so the valve closes slower and settles to the idle speed?

What is the hole size and depth on the flywheel?

TIA

Well I've got close loop idle working pretty good now. The only issue I'm having is when I first start the car. The rpm's go up and then they drop fast and the car almost stalls or it will overshoot badly and start oscillating. If I just catch it by putting my foot on the gas it will settle and be fine. Do I need to increase the closure time so the valve closes slower and settles to the idle speed?


Perhaps I missed something... are you controlling your idle through MS? I never touched my idle at all and it works just fine. I am using the stock AIC.

Yes, I'm controlling a bosch 2 wire idle valve with MS. IronJoe what are you doing for idle? You're running MS right?

Yes, I'm controlling a bosch 2 wire idle valve with MS. IronJoe what are you doing for idle? You're running MS right?

Yes I am running MS. I am doing NOTHING for idle. It just... idles. That's why I asked.

Did your car not idle properly with the stock stuff?


EDIT:
I was told to plug the charcoal canister as it can cause wacky idle. I did that and haven't had any idle trouble. I am controlling idle RPM via the throttle body screw.

Well, that is how you'r idle is working then, IJ... Via the idle-screw...
I had that as well, but decided to do the idle-thing... That also keeps a nice idle both cold and warm...
Jared, sorry, forgot about your request, will post when I get to my other computer! :D
Daniel.

Well the problem I have without having some form of variable idle control is that the car will idle at different speeds at different termperatures. My car runs in the range of -5 to +30 degrees celsius. I was using the old 8 valve heat controlled valve but the problem I was getting with that set-up was that the car wouldn't idle immediately after a hot start. I would have to keep the car running for a few seconds myself before it would idle by itself. With MS controlling idle with the 2 wire bosch valve my warm idle is bang on all the time but it's all over the place when it's cold, still need to figure that out. It will drop low and almost stall or sometimes stall and then it will compensate and overshoot the rpms all the way up to 3000 rpm. It will do this for about 20 seconds before it will settle down to an idle of 1000 rpm. I'm curious to see your settings Daniel and get some tips on setting closed loop idle cotnrol.

What is the hole size and depth on the flywheel?

TIA

It is 6.5mm in diameter as far I can remember, the depth is not most important it just have to be the same all the way around. KeithG has some better CAD pictures, I allso have them, but they are on my laptop and it is in repair at the time!

This just in!
Knock-protection is up and running!
Will take a few pictures tomorrow...
How do you do it then?
1. Connect a piece of wire to Pin5 on JP1, leave a part not insulated.
2. Connect a resistor between 1kohm and 5kohm to Pin8 in JP1
3. Connect the other end of the resistor to the part of the wire in Pin5 that we left open (not insulated)
4. Connect the other end of the wire to a suitable output. I've used X14, as it already has a wire in the wiring loom, that I don't use for anything else.

This sorts the MS-part of things. The connection between Pin5 and Pin8 is used to put a 5v-signal into the knock-input, when the car isn't knocking. The resistor is there, so that the 5v-signal is weak enough, so that the ground-signal from the APC-unit can overpower the 5v signal.

Now to the APC-unit. I'm not sure if the mod is really necessary, but I did it, so I'm sure the signal from the APC-unit is powerful enough to overpower the 5v-signal.
What you do, is simply fit a piece of wire over resistor R82 on both the new and old APC-version (14pin and 25pin). This overrules the resistance that keeps our normal LED's from exploding, when doing the knock-led mod.
You can keep the knock-led, you just have to use the same ground-signal from the APC-unit, and then power this via pin26 on Megasquirt. Otherwise, I THINK it should be enough just to fit a resistor in the power-supply to the knock-led, but I want to check up on that, before trying it out...
All for now, I'm just happy I've got knock security again :)
Daniel.

Okay Daniel - I'm going to install knock detection this week and I was hoping to get some clairification here.

In your post above you mention something about the knock LED that I don't understand. Currently I'm using Pin 19 from the APC box running to my LED. Is there a way to keep my knock LED and still run the knock signal to MS? If you could clairify that would be very helpful! Thanks Rev!

Yes, there is a way, was investigating this at some point, will see if I can find it again...
Seem to remember you need to wire 5v to the LED and share the ground-connection with MS, but this is guess-work... I just stopped with the knock-sensor and let MS do everything...
Daniel.

So if the knock LED is removed, is the installation as simple as connecting Pin 19 of the APC box to Pin 26 (or whichever I choose) of the MS box?

I was gonna suggest a relay, but a relay is not gonna switch fast enough. I think that wiring 5v to the LED, and then grounding to the wire going from apc to ms should work.

Nope, relay will not work...!
Believe the mentioned method will work, like Phil also states...
Daniel.

Ok now you two are confusing me. Refer to my post above...


If I choose to ditch the knock LED, is connecting PIN 19 of APC to pin 26(whatever) of MS the only external wiring needed??

Can we ask, once a year, how things are going?