IC sprayer [Archive] - SaabCentral Forums

: IC sprayer


Vigge
16-07-06, 04:23 PM
Inspired by a few ideas from various saab board I desiced to give the IC sprayer a go, to see if it could give me some benefit. The current IC is a bit lacking on really varm days especially during looooooooooooong accelerations, meaning temps raise to 65C during a 0-250km/h run.

Despite many DIY projects there seems to be the "normal" lack of any measured data, so the only way seems to be "do it your self".
After taking a closer look at these DIY's I found out that about 80% of the solotins where doomed from the beginning and the guys had compeletele forgot about the theory side. The common missunderstanding seems to be that you can make up for the "quality" with the "ammount", meaning that the key is not to spray the IC soaking wet more like to deliver water in form of really fine mist, so it evaporates on the core surface.

So back to the garage for simple test set-up, few nozzles from various stores and piece of hose. Connect the nozzles to the hose and hose to wall tap and see what type of mist it provides... Tried evryting from spray can nozzles to agricultural sprayers. The later ones did work fine and delivered a nice mist with high pressure, but the water consumption was way to high (1l/min).
Despite this lack I decided to give it a go with connecting it to the windshied washer tap. The spray was not as fine as with higher pressure, but the out come did re-present the common DIY. So to the raod I went and despite of hard trying I could not see any reduction on the intake temps, nor during cruise 120km/h or hard acceleration, the temps did raise as quick. Well this was more or less expected, but you can be sure until you try.

Back to the drawing board to seek out a better nozzle. Household oil heater nozzles are know to deliver a fine mist and they did. The fist tried one 0.5gallon/hour did produce a fine mist, but the ammount of it was too small.
So back to the shop and buy a bigger one 1.25Gal/h and test it. Result much better, but still not enough. Since there where no bigger ones available first hand I desided to increase the number of nozzles to three to provide a more uniform mist to the core.

At this point the nozzles where solved, but the pump side was still open. Normal windshied washer pumps do not work on high pressre, so it was not possible to use one, or yes it would have been possible but the mist would not be as wanted. Located a head lamp high pressure model and installed it along side with the std pump. Since both of my fog lights are broken (again) it was natural to rob the power from there to the pump, after all it has a nice switch in the cabin already:cheesy: Draw a few more hoses from here to there and viola, system was ready for testing.

the mist from the nozzles look like this

http://viggen93.mine.nu/viggen/kyyla1.jpg

and the results

http://viggen93.mine.nu/viggen/kyyla1.gif

The testing is still ongoing and I will post the results when I get it done, but for now it looks like there are some gains to be found. Water consumptions is about 0.1l/min.

Chris 9-5
16-07-06, 04:26 PM
Very cool :cool: I like that :p

John Z Williams
16-07-06, 05:04 PM
I tried a bunch of different nozzels and tested with water and alchohol and methonal... I tested on the dyno with no gain at all, I actually lost more hp on the second run with misting on the ic. I then tried liquid co2, but only in the winter. I did not gain any hp, actually lost hp, but I think the co2 was getting sucked into the intake and displacing oxygen. I also did this in the winter where it may not have had a noticiple effect. This is when I decided if I wanted to do something, it would be water injection or nitrous.... I have heard as you know that water injection does not work well with trionic as the ecu will just adapt back and you will end up making the same power even with water injection. Not sure if that is true, but it seems likely after learning how complicated t5 and t7 can be... You might be able to make the same power with lower egts and intake charge temps and allow the motor to run just as strong, but with lower and safer intake and exhaust temps. Not really sure... I need someone to show me it will work with Trionic first.... Good luck,

John

Vigge
16-07-06, 05:23 PM
I tried a bunch of different nozzels and tested with water and alchohol and methonal... I tested on the dyno with no gain at all, I actually lost more hp on the second run with misting on the ic. I then tried liquid co2, but only in the winter. I did not gain any hp, actually lost hp, but I think the co2 was getting sucked into the intake and displacing oxygen. I also did this in the winter where it may not have had a noticiple effect. This is when I decided if I wanted to do something, it would be water injection or nitrous.... I have heard as you know that water injection does not work well with trionic as the ecu will just adapt back and you will end up making the same power even with water injection. Not sure if that is true, but it seems likely after learning how complicated t5 and t7 can be... You might be able to make the same power with lower egts and intake charge temps and allow the motor to run just as strong, but with lower and safer intake and exhaust temps. Not really sure... I need someone to show me it will work with Trionic first.... Good luck,

John

IMHO you dont gain power by adding water into the deliver pipe if you have not lost it due to high temps or you dont do other adjustments at the seme time, like take away the "extra" fuel which is there to provide cooling nothing more. Personally I dont want to want that road since with that kind of set-up you will be the slave of water and if it runs out your can start collecting melted pieces.

I did this test to see if I can avoid a IC change which would come handy during the hot summers moths. Rest of the year is OK.

John Z Williams
16-07-06, 07:54 PM
Yea boost alone is the way to go... I went out today and it still pulled 25psi for 3 pulls in 102F. The 4th pull it did start to fluctuate on boost between 22-24psi and it went below 20psi above 5500rpm.... I am impressed, that is much better than before with smaller turbo. I got another ic for this build and it was a little longer, I think now the best way might be to use a bigger one that would use the tubes that come in from the side. Get some better flow and then without ac you could go up and down and thick and make good use of the front end... Make some slots or holes in that new bumper to get more air in there. One of those custom fiberglass bumbers with the big hole in the front... I just say wait until its just a little cooler...;) Night air can be nice:cool: Density, density, were are thou my density...

tturboboy
16-07-06, 10:06 PM
thanks for sharing the info vigge. i for one always appreciate your efforts to quantify the effect of a modification. btw have you found a "source" for the topless data yet?

mike saunders
16-07-06, 11:18 PM
Vigge,

Are all three nozzles running off one pump?

Sirhc
16-07-06, 11:53 PM
Been done before nothing really new going on. Very well documented that an intercooler sprayer cools the intercooler better in the heat. A fan on the back of the intercooler pulling it in also works very well to ensure even distribution of air mass.

If you really want to cool it down you should try out a co2 sprayer systems. If you also go this route it would be interesting to see if you could prove any gains in the using co2 to cool the gas and in the intake like a chargecooler.

Vigge
17-07-06, 01:55 AM
Vigge,

Are all three nozzles running off one pump?

yes, its strong enough for the job. Like said the water consumption is ~0.1l/min and the pump can deliver several l/min, so the flow is not "maxed".
I did test that the spray from any nozzle remains the same with the additional 2 nozzles running or not.

Vigge
17-07-06, 01:56 AM
btw have you found a "source" for the topless data yet?

did not quit catch this one? ;oops:

mike saunders
17-07-06, 03:58 AM
yes, its strong enough for the job. Like said the water consumption is ~0.1l/min and the pump can deliver several l/min, so the flow is not "maxed".
I did test that the spray from any nozzle remains the same with the additional 2 nozzles running or not.

Excellent!

I had tested several water mister nozzles with poor results and never thought to look at oil burner nozzles. I just bought three 1.75 gph nozzles and should have them in 4-5 days.

Many thanks for the info!

Vigge
17-07-06, 04:14 AM
Excellent!

I had tested several water mister nozzles with poor results and never thought to look at oil burner nozzles. I just bought three 1.75 gph nozzles and should have them in 4-5 days.

Many thanks for the info!

what are you running for pump? I must provide a few bars of pressure or the mist wont form correctly. I got mine for 40Eur, maybe not the cheapest, but affordable compared to many other pumps on the market. I though of using a fuel pump, but I wont last too long with water.

mike saunders
17-07-06, 10:36 AM
what are you running for pump? I must provide a few bars of pressure or the mist wont form correctly. I got mine for 40Eur, maybe not the cheapest, but affordable compared to many other pumps on the market. I though of using a fuel pump, but I wont last too long with water.

I had an old pump that I used for home brewing and made a clumsy test setup with a reducer...

I never thought to use the headlight wiper pumps...

John Z Williams
17-07-06, 10:46 AM
Been done before nothing really new going on. Very well documented that an intercooler sprayer cools the intercooler better in the heat. A fan on the back of the intercooler pulling it in also works very well to ensure even distribution of air mass.

If you really want to cool it down you should try out a co2 sprayer systems. If you also go this route it would be interesting to see if you could prove any gains in the using co2 to cool the gas and in the intake like a chargecooler.


I tried c02 sprayer on ic on the dyno in the winter on my third pull, on my second pull... I saw no difference at all on the dyno, it actually lost 5-7hp over the previous run, just like it did on the previous run before that, maybe it needs to be really hot before results could be seen, not sure, would have to test again... The one thing about using a nitrous sprayer on the ic is if some gets sucked into the intake, it would only help with density... ;)
John

mike saunders
17-07-06, 10:52 AM
Been done before nothing really new going on. Very well documented that an intercooler sprayer cools the intercooler better in the heat. A fan on the back of the intercooler pulling it in also works very well to ensure even distribution of air mass.

That's pretty much the point....:lol:

If you really want to cool it down you should try out a co2 sprayer systems. If you also go this route it would be interesting to see if you could prove any gains in the using co2 to cool the gas and in the intake like a chargecooler.

I'm not a big fan of dispersing a nice cloud of oxygen-displacing CO2 about a foot from the intake, but it certainly would cool the IC nicely.

John Z Williams
17-07-06, 10:59 AM
That's pretty much the point....:lol:



I'm not a big fan of dispersing a nice cloud of oxygen-displacing CO2 about a foot from the intake, but it certainly would cool the IC nicely.


Yep, that is the theory I use, the only reason my co2 sprayer did not work well is because it was getting sucked into the intake, which in my case is about 7" from the ic..... A shield on that side and the fan running would work well... Bye the way, the best effect that I can notice, no graphs or testing like that, but by monitoring boost and power is having the fan on all the time... This has been by far the best, cheapest way to increase power... It really does work well, better than any ic sprayer I have tried, I tried about 7 different styles and nozzles and co2 and none of it worked as well as having the fan on... Well, the thermostat hack worked better than it all, but that is considered hack and back-yard and I get yelled at a lot... Causes wear in warm up and all that.... Works good, but is not the right way to increase power, but the fan is perfectly ok....:p
JZW

Sirhc
17-07-06, 11:04 AM
http://www.martelbrothers.com/product_image.php?imageid=3568Here is the Co2 intake system. The product discription is listed below. Your not blowing c02 into the air to cool the intake temps but instead cooling the intake, like a chargecooler.

Design Engineering CryO2 Cryogenic Air Intake Only (2-1/2" O.D.). The CryO2 tm Air Intake consists of an aerodynamically design bulb with a cryogenic chamber which is mounted in a 4” segment of air tube. As the air passes over the bulb heat is removed from the air charge resulting in a colder, denser more powerful charge. Dyno testing showed a reduction in intake air temperature of more than 35%. The CryO2 Air Intake can be used on tubocharged, supercharged or naturally aspirated applications. Multiple units can be used for colder results. Installs in minutes and comes with silicone connection sleeve, hose clamps and connection/vent hose. Bottle/Solenoid/Line Kit p/n 080100 required for installation (not included with this item).

John Z Williams
17-07-06, 11:17 AM
http://www.martelbrothers.com/product_image.php?imageid=3568Here is the Co2 intake system. The product discription is listed below. Your not blowing c02 into the air to cool the intake temps but instead cooling the intake, like a chargecooler.

Design Engineering CryO2 Cryogenic Air Intake Only (2-1/2" O.D.). The CryO2 tm Air Intake consists of an aerodynamically design bulb with a cryogenic chamber which is mounted in a 4” segment of air tube. As the air passes over the bulb heat is removed from the air charge resulting in a colder, denser more powerful charge. Dyno testing showed a reduction in intake air temperature of more than 35%. The CryO2 Air Intake can be used on tubocharged, supercharged or naturally aspirated applications. Multiple units can be used for colder results. Installs in minutes and comes with silicone connection sleeve, hose clamps and connection/vent hose. Bottle/Solenoid/Line Kit p/n 080100 required for installation (not included with this item).

Yea, I have thought of trying one of those segments, but also think that trionic may just re-adapt back and then the temporary gains would be lost and then you have an expensive system that does not really work with trionic t5 or t7. Not sure about that, but feel its same as water injection in saabs, the darn ecu will re-adapt back and the gains you feel for a day or so will be gone... Just like when I would increase base boost, for a day or so it would run like an animal, then after a couple of more days, it would re-adapt and I would be back to the same place running the same boost and the same power with more base boost... I could do the same thing with less base boost so why bother.... Trionic can be tricky...;)
John

mike saunders
17-07-06, 11:19 AM
http://www.martelbrothers.com/product_image.php?imageid=3568Here is the Co2 intake system. The product discription is listed below. Your not blowing c02 into the air to cool the intake temps but instead cooling the intake, like a chargecooler.

Design Engineering CryO2 Cryogenic Air Intake Only (2-1/2" O.D.). The CryO2 tm Air Intake consists of an aerodynamically design bulb with a cryogenic chamber which is mounted in a 4” segment of air tube. As the air passes over the bulb heat is removed from the air charge resulting in a colder, denser more powerful charge. Dyno testing showed a reduction in intake air temperature of more than 35%. The CryO2 Air Intake can be used on tubocharged, supercharged or naturally aspirated applications. Multiple units can be used for colder results. Installs in minutes and comes with silicone connection sleeve, hose clamps and connection/vent hose. Bottle/Solenoid/Line Kit p/n 080100 required for installation (not included with this item).

I've seen this. The teardrop-shaped bulb sits in the intake stream....

It's an interesting design, but the bulb takes up half the interior space of the intake pipe. I don't know how much of a restriction that would be, even with the "aerodynamically" designed bulb....

Also...where does all the condensation from the humidity go? Is it just reabsorbed into the intake stream via evaporation? Do droplets make their way into the manifold?

John Z Williams
17-07-06, 11:24 AM
Why would you be worried about moisture in the intake? It would be just like water injection and it would only clean the valves and head and carbon and keep it much cleaner...?

John

mike saunders
17-07-06, 11:45 AM
Good points, John, but the difference is that with water injection you control how much water is dispensed, and when.

With condensation in the intake, it's a crap shoot.

I think removing uncertainty should be a goal...along with dropping intake temps.:D

Sirhc
17-07-06, 12:01 PM
Water getting into the intake system before the turbo can increase the chance for it to fail and, this is why it is an issue. If I had this system I would install it after the turbo. In regards to the size they also make a 3" system which might work on our 2" delivery pipes assuming the tear drop is 1" in diameter that would not allow for an increase or decrease in air mass.

John Z Williams
17-07-06, 12:25 PM
Well, yea, I would run right before throttle body, not before turbo as this can act like a bead blaster on your compressor blades. Mike, it would be as controllable as water injection, you turn it on with either a switch or a pressure control solenoid. Any condensation that would occur during cool down, would be turned into steam just like water injection and be used to cool intake temps.

I would not be concerned about moisture, just wondering as you do, is the restriction worth the trade off of lowered intake temps? The guy at the company said his car gained a .5 second in the quarter mile. He would turn it on for 10 seconds right before the run, he said it stayed cold long enough for a 1/4 mile run and that running it any longer did not get the bulb any colder or did not improve the performance any more so he only runs it before his pulls... He was getting around 3-5 pulls out of a 10lb bottle and to fill is about 15.00 bucks. So you get 3-5 pulls for 15.00... HHHMMMM< not sure that is the way to go, if I were do something along those lines, water injection would be my first choice.....
John

Sirhc
17-07-06, 12:47 PM
Don't also forget that on a earlier Saab model Saab used oem water injection system(WI). Saab put the WI on the car before the turbo and used the turbo to vaporize the water for the intake system. Very rare car.

If you use a WI correctly it is used mostly during the summer months and can be controlled by the fuel injectors allowing for more water use during high psi. WI systems mostly use the windshield washer fluid which, is not just water buy alcohol as well. Intercooler sprayers and WI systems are effective but not as effective as a properly desigined intercooler and turbo IMHO. I only say this because if your using some of this tricks it just compensating for weak link in your system causing the heat ie running turbo out of it's range and using a small intercooler not rated for it's application of cfm's leading to ineffective cooling. WI and spraying are great but get to the real root of the cause.

mike saunders
17-07-06, 01:04 PM
Intercooler sprayers and WI systems are effective but not as effective as a properly desigined intercooler and turbo IMHO. I only say this because if your using some of this tricks it just compensating for weak link in your system causing the heat ie running turbo out of it's range and using a small intercooler not rated for it's application of cfm's leading to ineffective cooling. WI and spraying are great but get to the real root of the cause.

Agreed...excellent points.

The IC sprayer is really just an aid for controlling temps on some of the really hot days of the year. Like Vigge and myself, John is running a much larger GT30 turbo, so for most of his driving he's producing more volume at less pressure, so heat is less of a factor than if he still had the maxed-out T28 (or if I had the 16T)

I really would only need the IC sprayer two, maybe three months out of the year, which is why such a low-cost cooling solution is so appealing.

The oil burner nozzles were $4.95 each, a pump from a wrecked car will likely be $20-40. Toss in some tubing and wiring, and maybe an auxiliary water bottle, and you can likely build a system for well under $100. :cool:

John Z Williams
17-07-06, 01:06 PM
I agree, a properly sized ic and turbo are very effective in keeping intake temps cool... That is what I feel I have now, a nice big efficient ic and a nice flowing ic with 2.5" piping from turbo to tb... Seems to work great... Even at 102F yesterday I was holding 25psi pretty good, could not do this with my smaller turbo I had before...

John

Vigge
17-07-06, 01:57 PM
I friend of mine runs aqumist in his volvo, injected after turbo. HW is basically the same as what I got temp with water off 65C after 0-250 run 40C with water, so there is no guestion weather that kind of system works or not.
Persnoally I do not see the catch in aquamist do to it pricing, the same money will buy you an IC which will do the same and it will work "always" with out any hassle or risk of failure.
Getting the SW "correct" to begin with is hard enough and the water play just does not look attractive.

Vigge
17-07-06, 02:01 PM
The IC sprayer is really just an aid for controlling temps on some of the really hot days of the year. Like Vigge and myself, John is running a much larger GT30 turbo, so for most of his driving he's producing more volume at less pressure, so heat is less of a factor than if he still had the maxed-out T28 (or if I had the 16T)


Yes, like stated before the intake temps in my friends 9-3 are worse (raise much faster under WOT) than mine with the 15T (stage III+) with the same exact IC as what I got, despite the fact that he moves ~210g/s of airmass and I do 320g/s:cheesy:

lms
18-07-06, 12:38 AM
I installed one but don't have a clue if it's doing a thing (no fancy intake temp gauge). All I know is that it was fun to build and it works-well at least it sprays water and never drips.