AHH! White Smoke!! Turbo's probably Blown... UPGRADE? [Archive] - SaabCentral Forums

: AHH! White Smoke!! Turbo's probably Blown... UPGRADE?


Turbo 900
17th May 2006, 02:12 PM
I started another thread in the Workshop to discuss if my turbo's blown, or if it's something else, but, lets take the senario that my turbo is blown because of the white smoke.

I have a 1998 900SE Turbo Coupe... and if my turbo is blown, what are my choices for upgrading my turbo, and how much will it cost? (More importantly, how much more than replacing the stock turbo?)

I'm running the SaabNation "Cold Air Intake", which I want to rip out as soon as possible, the Forge BOV, which I love, and the MP Performance MBC+A. Other than those and the Saab Sport Exhaust, my engine is pretty much stock. What other engine internals will I have to upgrade to handle a bigger turbo?

Bigger intercooler?
Intercooler piping?
Remapped ECU?
Header-Back Exhaust?
Etc...


Thanks.
-Bill

mike saunders
17th May 2006, 02:22 PM
If the turbo is truly gone, then the decision at the top of the flow chart is how big you want the new one to be. That will dictate most of the other factors: IC size, new oil/water piping needed (if any), ECU, downpipe....

Figure out how big you want to go -- and your budget for the project -- and then price out any additional parts and programming....

EDIT: no internal changes needed at all on a T5....:cheesy:

Turbo 900
17th May 2006, 03:56 PM
Well... what would the most common replacement be, or even the most cost-effective one?

What about upgraded to the TD04 turbo? What kind of horsepower gain would I be looking at there? Any other turbo solutions that would be too pricey?

Ryan33
17th May 2006, 04:57 PM
if you do that then do a ecu remapping and IC and downpipe and your car will be putting down around 250whp if not more...that is the upgrade most people go with at first...i am sure you will enjoy that upgrade alot..

Turbo 900
17th May 2006, 05:55 PM
Yeah, I'm aware of that... the problem I have is my turbo's blown, and I wanted to take advantage of that to replace it with a bigger one.

The more and more I do research on these things, the less I want to get one ($$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$). Any other kits out there on the market besides the Abbot Racing one?

Ryan33
17th May 2006, 06:10 PM
kits??? you could always think about running the GT28 if that is what you mean...Jak has the setup you might possibly want using the stock direct bolt turbo with a bigger center section, you could check that out...either way you go bigger your going to probuably need a new tuned ecu???

you could do what i did and do your own custom setup...??? all depends, anything you do is not gonna be cheap unless you find a used stock turbo...good luck and happy huntings man...

mike saunders
17th May 2006, 06:10 PM
Yeah, I'm aware of that... the problem I have is my turbo's blown, and I wanted to take advantage of that to replace it with a bigger one.

The more and more I do research on these things, the less I want to get one ($$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$). Any other kits out there on the market besides the Abbot Racing one?

If you get a bigger turbo, you'll need to tell the car how much boost pressure to expect from it and how much fuel to provide to mix with the increased air. This can only be done with a remapped ECU.

You can buy the individual hardware components and then get programming to match them. A full-fledged kit is pretty unnecessary, and the Abbott lads are basically benefitting from consumers' reluctance to learn about their cars.

Amending slightly my earlier comment, there are only two things that will dictate your choices: how much power you want...and how much you have to spend.

Figure out one, and then you can plan for the other.

If you want, say 300 whp, your choices and costs are going to be different than if you decide you want 250 whp.

If you have $1,500 total to spend, your turbo choices will be fewer and less powerful than if you have $2,000 total to spend....

I'm just pulling numbers out of the sky because it's possible to upgrade for much less....

tturboboy
17th May 2006, 09:00 PM
definetly a slippery slope with ever more hp available but higher costs to achieve. probably the most cost effective upgrade if you do not want to add other upgrades such as ic's and downpipes is a used TDO4 15t and a stage 2/3ECU especially if you can DIY the turbo install yourself. compared to where you are at now this is a pretty nice jump in HP and will put a smile on your face. down the road put in a used crossflow ic and you will have a pretty nice setup.

Turbo 900
17th May 2006, 09:26 PM
OK... thanks for the help guys.

Let's say I want the next step up from my current turbo (I am assuming this is the cheapest way of upgrading my currernt setup, rather than just repairing it).

Would this be the used TD04? Possibly a crossflow intercooler? And would the ECU remap be necessary, or would there be some way to jack the boost up with the MBC+A? (Yeah, that sounds really crappy)

mike saunders
17th May 2006, 10:10 PM
OK... thanks for the help guys.

Let's say I want the next step up from my current turbo (I am assuming this is the cheapest way of upgrading my currernt setup, rather than just repairing it).

Getting a used TD04HL-15T is one way to go....but if I was doing that, I would consider getting the turbo rebuilt to an 18T.

And would the ECU remap be necessary, or would there be some way to jack the boost up with the MBC+A? (Yeah, that sounds really crappy)

The ECU remap is very necessary for the reasons I mentioned. The computer needs to know how much boost to expect and how much fuel to deliver. Once this is done, you'll be putting the MBC+A on Ebay 20 seconds after getting an ECU tune. There's no comparison.

mike saunders
17th May 2006, 10:11 PM
It might sound like I'm trying hold you upside down and empty your pockets, but I know from experience that power is basically legal crack.

Once you have a taste, you'll be back for more.

You'll save lots of time and money by doing everything at once instead of incremental upgrades....

Ryan33
17th May 2006, 10:26 PM
very true once you start modding big time you keep finding ways to want to add more power, i have only been using my setup now for about 2 months, and i am already getting rid of it...i say get a tdo4 and rebuild it to a 18t like mike said and you will have an incredible time with the car...good luck man

Turbo 900
17th May 2006, 10:32 PM
...I know from experience that power is basically legal crack.Yeah, the addiction will never stop.;oops: Ahh... the power addiction I mean.

Well, you got me asking for numbers again: sending my turbo in to get rebuilt (upgraded) would cost how much? (Approx., I know you don't run a Saab Shop... or do you?)

Also, the cheapest route, would just be sending in my blown turbo to get rebuilt with stock internals? Basically giving me the same result I have now (or at least right before I blew my turbo).

I know all this stuff is expensive and requires a bunch of research, but I figure if I have to replace my turbo, I might as well replace it with a "better" one. The realization of how much other stuff I need to buy to accomodate to this "better" turbo will really determine if I actually opt for it or not.

Thanks again.
-Bill

mike saunders
17th May 2006, 11:32 PM
A cherry used TD04 can be had for around $300 or so; figure on another $200-250 to have it rebuilt to 18T specs. (Remember...if you're getting the turbo rebuilt anyway, you don't need a cherry unit. Ask around for a "rebuildable core." This is essentially a blown turbo that was returned for a core charge refund and is awaiting rebuilding.)

If you're getting this turbo from a junkyard, ask for the oil/water lines that came off the engine. You'll need these. These might not cost much at all, say under $25 for both...

A used crossflow "Viggen" intercooler is maybe $100, generally less.

You can DIY the hoses you need to make the IC fit the turbo....

John Z Williams
18th May 2006, 01:19 PM
very true once you start modding big time you keep finding ways to want to add more power, i have only been using my setup now for about 2 months, and i am already getting rid of it...i say get a tdo4 and rebuild it to a 18t like mike said and you will have an incredible time with the car...good luck man

I agree, once I tried a stage 3 with about 270bhp, I wanted stage 4 and then stage 5 and now? Stage 6 with gt30bb turbo. I am also thinking of following Jak with his gt32 turbo and external waste-gate. He is going to put down some awesome whp numbers at soc I suspect. That turbo is only 675.00
Check out atpturbo.com for a looksie, also Maptun.com has some great information about modding from stage 1 to stage 6 with 380bhp.

Ryan, have you decided on a turbo? I keep going round and round??? Now that I know a flange for the stock exhaust manifold can be used to place the turbo farther out from the block and allow a larger inlet pipe to fit, its a whole new ballgame. I keep going round and round, gt30bb, gt3071, gt2871 gt32bb,
gt2835, gt 3071r... I want this next turbo to be the last one I will ever need to get, as far as power and torque is concerned. What options are you considering and have you made a choice?

John

mike saunders
18th May 2006, 01:33 PM
I agree, once I tried a stage 3 with about 270bhp, I wanted stage 4 and then stage 5 and now? Stage 6 with gt30bb turbo. I am also thinking of following Jak with his gt32 turbo and external waste-gate. He is going to put down some awesome whp numbers at soc I suspect. That turbo is only 675.00

Have you seen the compressor map for this turbo? Do you know where it will start spooling? Want to know why it's only $675? :cool:

Now that I know a flange for the stock exhaust manifold can be used to place the turbo farther out from the block and allow a larger inlet pipe to fit, its a whole new ballgame. I keep going round and round, gt30bb, gt3071, gt2871 gt32bb,
gt2835, gt 3071r...

Check with CO-Saab and with Vigge...They've tried most of these and should be able to tell you what will fit and what modifications need to be done.

Turbo 900
18th May 2006, 02:12 PM
I took my car in to my shop today, and the whole way out there, there was no smoke except when I started it. On a side note, my Serpentine Belt was cracked, and it was just replaced in Feb. Good thing it didn't break on me while I was driving. They are going to tighten up the head or something like that- I forgot what they said, then replace the belt again.

Hopefully my turbo is indeed OK... what a relief, yet what a waste of all your time!

I'll probably end up getting an intercooler... started a new thread to talk about the Samco hose kit.

Ryan33
18th May 2006, 02:14 PM
I agree, once I tried a stage 3 with about 270bhp, I wanted stage 4 and then stage 5 and now? Stage 6 with gt30bb turbo. I am also thinking of following Jak with his gt32 turbo and external waste-gate. He is going to put down some awesome whp numbers at soc I suspect. That turbo is only 675.00
Check out atpturbo.com for a looksie, also Maptun.com has some great information about modding from stage 1 to stage 6 with 380bhp.

Ryan, have you decided on a turbo? I keep going round and round??? Now that I know a flange for the stock exhaust manifold can be used to place the turbo farther out from the block and allow a larger inlet pipe to fit, its a whole new ballgame. I keep going round and round, gt30bb, gt3071, gt2871 gt32bb,
gt2835, gt 3071r... I want this next turbo to be the last one I will ever need to get, as far as power and torque is concerned. What options are you considering and have you made a choice?

John

yea i already picked a turbo but i wont start putting everything in or start posting stuff about till it is all finished, so prolly for about another month or so i will still have my setup, hopefully by the end of the summer i will have a new setup which will prolly be the last one i do...so for now just sit tight, and i agree with mike get in touch with vig or co-saab they have alot of these turbos...good luck with the choice selection

John Z Williams
18th May 2006, 02:56 PM
Ryan,
I guess that means you will not say which turbo you decided to buy?
We all know that Vigge and Co-Saab have ideas on what turbo is best for our cars. I think Co-Saab says the gt2871 is a nice fit. It seems Vigge feels the gt3071 may be a better fit with better spool-up and decent power.
I got some information from Nick at gs and he says the gt30bb or the gt2871 will fit on stock exhaust manifold with spacer flange on head.

I am going to wait until Jak is all done before I make any assumptions about how much turbo lag it will have and how much power it will have and how the drivability is on the car.

I think the reason its much cheaper is because its the old technology journal bearing turbo. There are benifits to these turbos, they are re-buildable and are known to be very durable.

The new gt tubos are sensitive to oil pressure, cannot have too much or too little. They are not re-buildable and if they go, there done, new turbo time and that is expensive. They are not known for being extremely durable either, but they are known for having great spool-up and for having better flow for the same size housings and wheels, they have a better wheel design they say.

So its a trade-off, journal bearing turbos have decent performance with great durabilty and rebuildable capability and they are much cheaper....

Gt ball bearing turbos have great performance with not such great reliability and they are not rebuildable and they are expensive....

Take your pick,

JZW

Turbo 900
18th May 2006, 07:12 PM
BLAH, on the way back from the shop I'm getting white smoke, and I can't reach full boost. Grrrr.:x

I'm goning to check out my intake, I guess my turbo is slowly dying...

EDIT: I forgot to ask, how much would a "journal" turbo run me? Any links?

CO-Saab
18th May 2006, 08:42 PM
I got some information from Nick at gs and he says the gt30bb or the gt2871 will fit on stock exhaust manifold with spacer flange on head.

John, I am using the OEM manifold. The spacer was my doing as well. I thought you had seen pics of my install?

However, the intake path for this solution sucks! There is only one way to make the elbow fit, and it took me forever to get to that point. Nick's solution is a copy of my setup. ;)

John Z Williams
18th May 2006, 11:11 PM
I need to re-look at your pictures Co-Saab.

atpturbo.com has em all, do a google search for turbos...

I re-checked your site, yea I was thinking this was the intake pipe you did before you added the manifold spacer. The pipe no longer needed the cut-out after the spacer right? Looks like you got an ok inlet pipe to fit in there once you were all done. Could you get a silicone inlet pipe like Abbott racing sells and save yourself some trouble or would that not fit either or do you feel there is not a silicone elbow strong enough to not colaspe under extreem suction? Can I get a custom elbow like yours from Nick? I wish I could talk you into dynoing at Mac's to see how it compares to my car and also to give me an idea of what kind of performance I might expect from that turbo. You went with the .63ar, right? I guess the .83 would be too big for spool-up to be decent. I would try the .63 too...

John