Project Turbo Killer [Archive] - SaabCentral Forums

: Project Turbo Killer


sonett1
28th March 2006, 12:40 PM
I know have enough parts to start rebuilding the 'new' engine for my 99GL. All of the internals are going to be balanced tomorrow, crank, pistons/rods, aluminium flywheel, clutch cover and crank pulley (from a Saab 90).
I am just waiting for the flowed head with larger inlet valves and special catcam to arrive.
Although it will eventually have Jenvey throttle bodies, i will be running the engine in with the K-jetronic system that is fitted at present, when it's run in, 500 miles or so on good mineral oil, it will be run on 5/40 fully synthetic oil.
I have almost convinced myself that the engine management system will be megasquirt, mainly because of cost and the ease of use with the tuning software, i will probably opt for a wideband O2 sensor and maybe a knock detector.
Have a look at this link for the parts so far http://spaces.msn.com/dbsss/PersonalSpace.aspx?_c11_PhotoAlbum_spaHandler=TWlj cm9zb2Z0LlNwYWNlcy5XZWIuUGFydHMuUGhvdG9BbGJ1bS5FZG l0TW9kZUNvbnRyb2xsZXI

The twin manifold is a spare i have, the misab manifold is with the head so it can
be matched.

Skybone
28th March 2006, 12:52 PM
Beware the wilds of Widnes when this beast gets on the road...!

Sounds like it's going to give you an "ear to ear" grin...

Cool... :D

nutcase
28th March 2006, 02:02 PM
Link's not working properly :( Maybe exceeded the bandwidth as it loads some of it!

Who made the flywheel? Is it a fidenza? Did you have to buy a new 90 pulley too? It was Julian who put me on to that idea!

sonett1
28th March 2006, 03:15 PM
Yes, it keeps coming up 'temperalily unavailable try later' i'll have alook at it.

I sussed the 90 pulley out sometime ago with Julian, when i decided to fit the later H type engine, we had concerns over the 900 pulley and came to the conclusion that you would have great difficulty changing the belt, then we looked at a 90 Julian had at the time, later H type in a 99 engine bay, voila, single belt narrow pulley. I did a search on parts conections and a dealer in southampton contacted with a price of 75 delivered, so i couldn't refuse :lol: .
I bought the flywheel from swedish dynamics in the states.

sonett1
28th March 2006, 03:26 PM
Try this link http://www.saabphotos.com/gallery/album252Stupid MSN :x .

Tomarse
28th March 2006, 04:22 PM
I sussed the 90 pulley out sometime ago with Julian, when i decided to fit the later H type engine, we had concerns over the 900 pulley and came to the conclusion that you would have great difficulty changing the belt, then we looked at a 90 Julian had at the time, later H type in a 99 engine bay, voila, single belt narrow pulley. I did a search on parts conections and a dealer in southampton contacted with a price of 75 delivered, so i couldn't refuse :lol: .
I bought the flywheel from swedish dynamics in the states.

Is this fitting in a 99 engine bay that previously had a B engine? - just what i was on about in my thread over the weekend! ;)

What are you doing with the water pump?

sonett1
29th March 2006, 01:39 AM
My 99 already has the early type H engine, but i know what you mean about the bulkhead on the early 99 if you want to fit any of the H type engines. I suppose you may only have two alternatives, either modify the bulkhead or fit an electric water pump. If you did go down the route of modifying the bulkhead, i think it would be easier to cut the section from a scrapped late 99 and graft it in to your early bulkhead, i know where there is a 99 that is being broken if you need that panel, it is easy to get at because the engine is out, but be quick the car will be going to the crusher soon.

Tomarse
29th March 2006, 04:48 AM
i know where there is a 99 that is being broken if you need that panel, it is easy to get at because the engine is out, but be quick the car will be going to the crusher soon.

Is it local? and is it in a scrappy or at someones home/premises (so could i get power tools to it?, or loan something like a plasma cutter to remove it?)

sonett1
29th March 2006, 05:38 AM
I suupose it's quite local...........Rochdale.

Power is available, so it should be quite easy to remove. If you are still interested, let me know and i'll forward some details.

sonett1
5th April 2006, 09:30 AM
Just collected the 'rotating mass' from the engineering shop that did the balancing, i had everything balanced individually so if something was to break in the future i only need to replace and balance that part.

The rods were the worst, 7g and 19g had to be removed from two of them, the new '90' pulley didn't need to be touched, but everything else needed something removing.
Hopefully it will be a smooth engine and the idling won't be too bad with the special catcam :cheesy: .

sonett1
2nd May 2006, 11:32 AM
I know have my Aluminium crank pulley :cheesy: .
I have had it made in such a way that the toothed wheel for the megasquirt sits snug on a small lip. The wheel has 3 holes to fasten it to the pulley, i will wait until the engine is built and then line it up before i drill and tap the pulley itself.
The weight of the 90 OEM pulley is around 1.9kg, the aluminium pulley with the 5mm thick steel toothed wheel is 1.3kg.
Have a look here for pictures.....www.saabphotos.com/gallery/Project-Turbo-Killer

sonett1
11th April 2007, 07:54 AM
It's been a while since i've up dated this thread...........

Gearbox is now complete, it's a 5 speed from an '84 GL so it should have had an easy life, this proved to be true when i opened it up, the syncro's are good and there is no wear on the pinion and ring gear, i fitted a quaife ATB, steel back cover and a chillcast pinion housing.

I had a call from Dave Baker at Puma Race Engines, he has carried out some calculations on the valve train at my request as i was concerned about the buckets failing when at high revs, i have heard of quite a few engines doing this. Basically the valve train on the H & B series engine is quite heavy, the saab inlet valve weighs in at 94g, the inlet Dave has fitted to my engine weighs 80g and this has a thicker stem and a bigger head! It's a Ford CVH valve but it's made to Dave's specification. The Saab buckets weigh 95g, Puegeot buckets weigh 69g, these can be made to fit with a little work. If you fit the valves, inlet and exhaust, from Puma Racing and the pug buckets you will save 20% of the valve train weight.
Another odd thing about the Saab buckets is that they have a hole half way up side, no other bucket that we know of has this hole and is a prime candidate for a stress crack, in fact cracks have been seen around this area on highly revved engines.
These engines with standard valve gear should be safe to around 6700, but i would set the limiter to around 6400 ish, with all the new lighter parts a full race engine could be developed that should go to 7600 rpm.
My engine should produce peak power at around 6400-6500 rpm so i will need to take it to around 7000rpm.

nutcase
11th April 2007, 11:31 AM
I have 7 genuine Saab buckets with no hole. And one with :roll: The original design didn't have them. Best guess is a lube hole.

sonett1
11th April 2007, 04:50 PM
How old are the buckets and can you weigh them?

nutcase
11th April 2007, 11:48 PM
No idea :) Got them from a rummage at highgate a couple of years ago. When I've remembered where I put them, I'll give one to my Mum to weigh at her school. Presumably slightly heavier than the later type.

VikingSpirit
12th April 2007, 09:10 AM
Gearbox is now complete, it's a 5 speed from an '84 GL so it should have had an easy life...

Hehe, clearly you're not talking about my gearbox there!
Can't be, I don't think mine has had anything like an easy life!:p

sonett1
23rd May 2007, 01:52 PM
Things are starting to happen again with this project, Dave Baker dropped the ported inlet manifold off the other day along with my new Catcam, the cylinderhead is almost complete, the 900 H series block is all built up and just waiting for the head to be fitted. I've been fiddling around with the crank sensor position, i think i have decided where to locate it, just need to make a sturdier bracket.

I had some spare time today so i fastened the jenveys/trumpets onto the manifold to check the finished length, clearance should be fine near the brake servo, this was my main concern about using the long trumpets, i have a total inlet tract lenght of around 415mm, obstructions are virtually zero, apart from the throttle itself.

http://i147.photobucket.com/albums/r310/sonett_01/45mmjenveys1.jpg

http://i147.photobucket.com/albums/r310/sonett_01/45mmjenveys.jpg

http://i147.photobucket.com/albums/r310/sonett_01/inlettract2.jpg

http://i147.photobucket.com/albums/r310/sonett_01/inlettract99jenveys.jpg

A few pics of the Catcam, compared to the standard 99 cam.....

http://i147.photobucket.com/albums/r310/sonett_01/99standardcam.jpg

http://i147.photobucket.com/albums/r310/sonett_01/99catcam.jpg

geoffc
24th May 2007, 01:18 PM
Where did the manifold you're using come from? I know of 4 sources for these...

I've seen the valve train on these blow up from high revs. Mostly its the cam carrier that shatters. Dual valve springs will let you rev up to 8000-8500 rpm. I've got dual valve springs and a modified cam in one of my B engines and I've had it up to 8000 many times! :D

TheRedBaron
24th May 2007, 02:19 PM
Sonett1, those TBs scare me! Looks like a fun project :D

sonett1
24th May 2007, 03:25 PM
Where did the manifold you're using come from? I know of 4 sources for these...

I've seen the valve train on these blow up from high revs. Mostly its the cam carrier that shatters. Dual valve springs will let you rev up to 8000-8500 rpm. I've got dual valve springs and a modified cam in one of my B engines and I've had it up to 8000 many times! :D

This one is a genuine Misab, obviously, it's from Sweden, but no longer produced, it's one of the best that was available.
The cam carrier will probably shatter, but more than likely the buckets went first, standard valve train on B and H series engine is good for around 6500rpm, more than that and your into your share of luck!
The parts are really heavy and the bucket with the holes in is a failure waiting to happen on a high revving engine, the Saab buckets weigh 95g, peugeot 205 GTI buckets weigh 69g, standard valves weigh 94g, the special 46mm valves i will be using on my EMS head weigh 80g and these are physically bigger, the stem is even thicker, these are OK with the uprated rally 205 GTI spring also, no need for duplex valves, of course using these parts means that you no longer have shims, but lash caps.

I would be very interested to see a power/torque curve for your engine, do you have a dyno graph?

Tomarse
24th May 2007, 05:32 PM
that is definately throttle body porn! :o

Penguin45
24th May 2007, 07:50 PM
that is definately throttle body porn! :o
Yup, gorgeous. And I thought I'd been pretty damn clever tracking down a pair of CD150s and a manifold........:(

Chris.

geoffc
25th May 2007, 12:16 PM
This one is a genuine Misab, obviously, it's from Sweden, but no longer produced, it's one of the best that was available.
The cam carrier will probably shatter, but more than likely the buckets went first, standard valve train on B and H series engine is good for around 6500rpm, more than that and your into your share of luck!
The parts are really heavy and the bucket with the holes in is a failure waiting to happen on a high revving engine, the Saab buckets weigh 95g, peugeot 205 GTI buckets weigh 69g, standard valves weigh 94g, the special 46mm valves i will be using on my EMS head weigh 80g and these are physically bigger, the stem is even thicker, these are OK with the uprated rally 205 GTI spring also, no need for duplex valves, of course using these parts means that you no longer have shims, but lash caps.

I would be very interested to see a power/torque curve for your engine, do you have a dyno graph?

I don't think we got peugeot 205s here in the US, it would be nice to source some of the valvetrain parts or get some lightweight buckets and components made. A guy I know had some custom titanium buckets made for his V4.

The MSS dual valve springs along with a cam allows for the engine to rev to 8500rpm without damaging the carrier. The 8500 rev limit is actually for the B engine because the auxiliary shaft hits a harmonic at 8500 and will break, yuck. Plenty of engines have been built with these components and run that high, but it would be nice to have a lightweight valvetrain for more reliability, power, etc. The shattered carriers I've seen have been on stock, over-revved heads. I've seen them just break the carriers and break both the buckets and the carriers so from my viewpoint it looks like the buckets would hold the high rpms and the carriers shatter but yes they are too heavy and probably should be upgraded.

I don't have a dyno sheet for the car, I've been only midly curious. The car is used for rally so reliability, high rpms, and a little more power are the main focal points for the engine. The head has stock valves with dual valve springs, a cam, and an adjustable cam gaer. The engine has flat top pistons from an aircooled VW. I recently picked up a new head with 44.5mm intake valves and 37mm exhaust valves, dual valve springs, and a high output cam. I'll be putting that either on a new engine I have (if I can diagnose a problem with it) that has flat top pistons or rebuilding the old engine and putting the head on it.

With the lash caps, how will you adjust the valves? I'll be interested to see what this engine turns out like, how much power, torque, etc. Are you running an exhaust header?

sonett1
25th May 2007, 12:49 PM
There is no need to go through the expense of having followers made, the Peugeot followers are well up to the job.

I had the complete valve train properly assessed by a professional engine builder, 6500rpm was the ultimate safe limit of the components, above this and it's lottery time, even if it is acedemic once you get this far into tuning it's not worth taking chances and ruining a potentially expensive engine.

I asked about a dyno sheet beacause i was interested in the width of the power band and torque, revving to 8500rpm is OK but if your power peaks at say 7500rpm it's pretty pointless.
The MSS cams are OK, but these are regrinds, if you want to really optimise your headwork fit a catcam, these are new cams from blanks.(see earlier photo's, the metal just isn't there on a standard cam to get the best profile)

With the lash caps you have to keep milling the surface to get your clearance, but it will stay in spec for at least 30-50k miles depending on use.
The cam for this engine has been chosen with caution, it will be a road car, but the throttle bodies may prove so good that i could go up with the cam.
I am using a header from MSS.

The head being developed for my EMS will have 46mm valves and a much wilder duration than the GL. If you use the parts i mentioned you will save 20% of the valve train weight.

geoffc
25th May 2007, 01:39 PM
I can't see the photos of your cam, they're probably blocked by the server I'm on at work, I'll have to remember to look from home.

Do you know what kind of work has to be done to make the Pug buckets fit? I'd want to know what I was getting into before trying to source some and have them shipped over the Atlantic.

I think I'm running the 4200 to 7500 cam right now. The reason for sometimes going higher than that is that is makes no sense to shift up when I only have a few seconds before getting to the next corner and needing to lift anyway.

Is there a website for catcams? All I can find on the internets is webcams of kitties. :)

Adjusting the valves using the lash caps sounds like a real pain. Not that doing it with the box of shims is much easier...

sonett1
25th May 2007, 02:01 PM
It's probably your companies server, the pics are still showing.

The Pug buckets are the same external dimensions as the Saab buckets, from memory the head of the Saab bucket is about 3.4mm thicker than the Pug one, hence the need for lash caps. The valves on my UBV head a re special ford CVH valves, the stems are thicker so the guides need to be opened out, also they are much longer than the Saab valves, so they can be machined for height etc.
Have a look at www.catcams.be (http://www.catcams.be)
Adjusting the lash caps can be tedious, but a 20% weight saving on the valve train is worth it, although you could have those titanium followers made, but dollar for dollar, i know what i would i choose.

geoffc
25th May 2007, 02:35 PM
Yeah, this British company I work for blocks images :D

When putting the MSS cams in you use these compensation shims to make up for the difference in base diameter. They look like thick valve shims with a 1/8" nipple protruding from the center on one side. You drill a 1/8" diameter by 1/8" deep hole in the lifter buckets and the compensation shim pops in there, located by the nipple. It accomplishes the same thing as the lash caps except you still have to use the valve shims.

I'll stick with the MSS cams on the B engines becuase I have an assortment of them. I may build up a high power 16VNA engine sometime, the catcams website will be helpful for that, thanks! I noticed they list lifter buckets on their website too but I don't have any specs for stock buckets to compare what they list vs. what our engines have. I'm guessing that the Pug ones are probably cheaper anyway.

I think my valves are from a Ford Pinto. The stems are slightly smaller in diameter (0.178mm smaller). It has bronze valve guides with the right ID for the valves. I seem to remember that the bronze valve guides have better properties for a high RPM engine (lubricity, heat expansion, or something). I can't wait to try it out!

Si
19th June 2007, 06:17 PM
What do the ports on the back of the inlet manifold look like? Has the head & manifold been ported out so they are round rather than square or is there a transition between the square ports and the round inlet tube?

sonett1
20th June 2007, 03:11 PM
What do the ports on the back of the inlet manifold look like? Has the head & manifold been ported out so they are round rather than square or is there a transition between the square ports and the round inlet tube?

The back of the inlet manifold is the same square shape as the ports on the head. The transition from round to square takes place about 3/4 of the way down the inlet manifold. I am collecting two, possibly three ported heads on Friday on the way to Goodwood, when i get back i'll post some pics.

Si
20th June 2007, 03:48 PM
I want to try and build a integrated chargecooler/plenum, not sure whether to go with a single TB before the plenum or 4 individual TB's on the runners after.

sonett1
24th June 2007, 11:26 AM
I want to try and build a integrated chargecooler/plenum, not sure whether to go with a single TB before the plenum or 4 individual TB's on the runners after.

From all of the turbo cars i know of and have seen, the 'really' sorted ones have had individual T/B's, like on the audi quattro S2 etc. Jenvey offer TB's to be used on turbo's, these have a seal arrangement that is more suited to turbo car's.

sonett1
24th June 2007, 11:59 AM
On the way to Goodwood we popped into Dave Baker's to drop off the EMS block to be decked and honed and collected it on the way home the next day. The heads are not quite ready, but the porting is more or less done. Dave pointed out the extra benefits from using the 46mm inlet valves as opposed to the 44mm and the standard 42mm valves. The advanced porting on the 46mm valve head (EMS) was very obvious once Dave had pointed things out, he was more excited and enthusiastic about this head than the big 44mm inlet valve head for the H engined 99GL. The 46mm valve head has reached the point were larger exhaust valves would be beneficial, but altering the exhaust cam timing on the camshaft in the correct way will have the same effect.
To say the machining and honing on the block was good would be an understatement. Machining the face of the block was not that easy, because of the 45 degree angle, after every pass of the cutter, the angle had to be re-calculated.
The bores were also different sizes, but after Dave had honed them, they were perfect, he put the dial bore/dial indicator down each bore while i was there and each bore is EXACTLY the same, even the honing surface is of such a way that the rings will bed in, but oil retention will still be effective. I need to give the block a good clean in the parts washer and rebuild the bottom head to double check the piston height for the combustion chamber volume, we are aiming for around 11.2:1.

http://i147.photobucket.com/albums/r310/sonett_01/EMShonedanddeckedblock-1.jpg

The chamfer was done by hand!

http://i147.photobucket.com/albums/r310/sonett_01/EMSblockchamfer-1.jpg

You may just be able to work out the transition from round to square, it's difficult to see.

http://i147.photobucket.com/albums/r310/sonett_01/Misabmanifold99.jpg

v4rallye
10th January 2011, 10:35 AM
Lifting up an old thread...

Question regarding the cam-followers:
Is it standard Peugeot 205 GTI (1.6 / 1.9) cam followers?
Or is it some special parts like the set offered by kent-cams?

Would be nice if you can clarify things here. :D

Thanks a lot!

Best Regards,
Erik

sonett1
10th January 2011, 11:12 AM
Hi Erik,

all the information about this engine is in this thread http://www.uksaabs.eu/UKS/viewtopic.php?f=35&t=17159&sid=4712232d580ae4d56c03f6ef8d8ef9ef

The followers are 1.9 Peugeot buckets.

v4rallye
10th January 2011, 12:31 PM
Hi!

I had already read the thread but couldn't figure out if it was standard Peugeot lifters or some special parts (i.e. motorsport-parts)?

Cheers,
Erik