GM has sunk saab to a new low. car and driver article titled "Swedish Seoul"

[therealturbofan]

well everybody, i'm ready to bid goodbye to the once great Saab company. i could take the 9-2x--it made sense, and it's a huge improvement over the WRX. i guess the 9-7x has to exist, because Saab needs an SUV just like a fish needs pants, which is apparently a lot.

on page 37 of the May 2005 issue of Car and Driver magazine is found this little blurb about saab.

"Saab's 9-7x sport ute, built on the same platform as the chevrolet trailblazer, is set to go on sale this month. the body-on-frame mid-size 9-7x will be the only Saab SUV in showrooms for a couple of years until the swedish automaker's car-based unibody SUV, now dubbed the 9-5x, shows up in 2007. Some time back, word had it that the car-based sport ute would be called the 9-6x and would be based on Subaru's B9 Tribeca, but it seems the Japanese platform was dismissed because it would have required too many modifications to adapt a diesel engine necessary for Europe (the 9-7x will only be sold in the U.S.). Therefore, Saab will build the 9-5x on the GM Theta platform that underpins the Saturn Vue and Chevrolet Equinox and Pontiac's upcoming Torrent, due this fall.

"A four-cylinder turbo diesel engine will come from Italian maker VM Motori for use in the Saab, Opel, and Vauxhall versions of the SUV, although plans for importing the diesel to the States seem unlikely. Don't be surprised if the 9-5x is built in a Daewoo plant in Korea".

"Swedish sacrilege? Perhaps, but Saab is trying hard to stay competitive by cutting production, development, and currency costs."

so now we'll have this once-unique brand, to which GM has deceptively given the tag line of "welcome to the state of independence" (completely ironic, considering the company's strict dependency upon the funding of GM), selling a car built alongside the exceptional (exceptionally stupid) chevrolet aveo. General Motors has ruined saab. We must cherish the cars that are left from this brand, and maybe keep an inkling of hope that it will regain its identity... but i think this hope is misplaced.

i love my C900.:cry:

[SaabKen]

Are they saying the 9-6X is completely scuttled ..... just like that, because it wouldn't accept a diesel engine for European market ? Did Saab/GM not forsee this when they chose to share the B9 Tribeca platform way back when ? I find this news somehow unconvincing. But then again a lot of sh** has happened at Saab and GM in the past few weeks, so who knows ?

I still have faith in the SportCombi as the comeback car for Saab. Even the 9-7X I have high hopes for. The 9-2X and 9-6X are mere sidedishes compared to what they're planning for the 9-3 and 9-5 lines.

[therealturbofan]

maybe the sportcombi will attract some sales. but i'm saying it's true "swedish sacrilege" to build the freaking things in korea. good-night! they should be shot... japan was bad enough. now we're in the land of hyundai and kia. welcome to the world of GM.

[edusaab]

if that is true......that demonstrate another time that GM is like a blind trying to hit someone, it is impressive the waste of time and money they are ocasionating in Saab. As I showed in the article of autonews Saab said they have about 2 years of delay in his product portofolio and now they come with a 9-7x and 9-6x that nobody knows what difference you can find in both.

About the 9-6x, the 9-6x name is registered by Saab, I have many doubts about the change.

greetings

[1BadPig]

Can we all pool our pocket change together and buy Saab from GM? :roll:

[sethsev7n]

**sob**



...

[therealturbofan]

if that is true......that demonstrate another time that GM is like a blind trying to hit someone, it is impressive the waste of time and money they are ocasionating in Saab. As I showed in the article of autonews Saab said they have about 2 years of delay in his product portofolio and now they come with a 9-7x and 9-6x that nobody knows what difference you can find in both.

About the 9-6x, the 9-6x name is registered by Saab, I have many doubts about the change.

greetings

keep in mind, this isn't MY speculation... this is out of car and driver, and they're usually not far off... i expect there are more reasons for discontinuing the 9-6x project... however, it could still be *** information.

[Skitzo]

If it is out of C&D I would be worried, I have visited and will probably be working at a publication very similar to C&D. MONTHS before anything at any auto show was revealed (including teaser info far before that) the automakers gave the magazines info to gauge reactions and simply get the word out... apperantly they aren't gauging many reactions and simply are killing Saab even more. I do love my 9-2X Aero however and while I would like a 2.3 Turbo under the hood the motor is excellent and AWD is MUCH over do.... I'm simply thinking that Saab is becoming GM's one Infiniti/Lexus for ALL the companies under the GM name plate.... god help us all.

[squishmann]

shouldn't they have known a diesel wouldn't work before they started?

i want some of the stuff they're smoking.

even if they build a ute on this theta platform they still need something bigger. that's where the cash is. this would make the 3rd time they've failed in this project.

[Skitzo]

You know I always knew there was a reason that every car in my parents driveway was from Europe (actual European cars, like BMW not US owned comps) and Asia (well that was all me). Hell I'm MORE than happy to own a Saab that has a Fuji Heavy Industries stamp, who cares, it's a DAMN fine motor and the chassis in unflappable, what bugs me is when we start taking real econo box engines and stuffing them in Saabs. I mean the EJ20 (and maybe EJ25) carry on a proud tradition of lots of boost and capable of so much more on factory internals, just like Saab always has. I remember reading when I was getting back interested in Saab's that the 9-3 Viggen could hold 25psi of boost, I was blown away. Yet there are some things GM could do better, like use AWD platforms that are upcoming to actually let the brand compete with Volvo more and put a much better stamp on the market. Parts sharing is fine with me, I mean there is NO way that I could have ever dreamed of owning a Saab 9-2X exactly how it sits if it wasn't for GM, heck an AWD 2.0T with 227hp probably would have cost mid 30K range if Saab built the whole thing. What is really agravating is not all the part sharing, it's the cars that they choose to share parts with. No one seems to be complaining when Lexus uses so many Toyota parts, or Audi makes use of VW parts, etc. I just wish that Saab was owned by a real company, like Renault or Peugot that know how to build a turbo European car, not damn GM.

I just think about all this and wonder... you know they have the Saturn Sky platform, turbo that thing and throw on a badge while your at it.... if Saab is so doomed to low profits... SELL IT OFF!!! Give it back, I just wish that GM would stop complaining and find a way to put the company back to Trollhatten and back to us enthusiasts.

[therealturbofan]

nobody complains about lexus using toyota parts because lexus IS toyota and always has been. saab hasn't always been GM, and it's the change that affects us. people DO complain about Audi using so many veedub parts.

to reply to the person who said "they need something bigger" , that's truly the last thing saab needs. saab doesn't need a suburban. the 9-7x is plenty big for a brand like saab. let GMC and Chevrolet fight over the excursion killers.

anyways, this sucks. and i'm sprouting a profound hate for GM and their unparalleled skill at ruining brands.

but hey, at least cadillac is getting sporty cars...

[CosmicSaab]

I don't believe the article. I think it is a bunch of crap. The B9x based 9-6x is all but confirmed. Theta is so not a platform they would make Saab use. That's in the same family as the Aztek and the Equinox. It would not be suitable for a Saab SUV. Even if they decided the GMT360 was, Theta is not. I don't believe it. Besides, we already have a 9-5...

[apzer09]

Theta is at least not a truck, which the 9-7x is. I think if they stick to just the platform and give Saab their own engines and build it in Sweden, it could work. Besides, it's the VUE (which I sort of like) Equinox and Torrent that share the platform, and they're all OK as far as small SUVs go.

[Raven18940]

I don't buy this a replacement for the 9-5, but I do believe that it'll be the 9-6. Eh, who cares if they make it in Korea, it's an assembly line. It doesn't really matter where it's made, just how it's made. I mean the finally assembly location on my car was Finland.

GM is so screwed up right now it's insane, they can't make a decision and stick to it. I don't care if they make the 9-6 out wet paper towels and the new 9-5 out of toothpicks, JUST DO IT ALREADY!!!!

[SaabKen]

I don't buy this a replacement for the 9-5, but I do believe that it'll be the 9-6. Eh, who cares if they make it in Korea, it's an assembly line. It doesn't really matter where it's made, just how it's made. I mean the finally assembly location on my car was Finland.

GM is so screwed up right now it's insane, they can't make a decision and stick to it. I don't care if they make the 9-6 out wet paper towels and the new 9-5 out of toothpicks, JUST DO IT ALREADY!!!!

Hey, I mean BMW Z3's and X5's are made in Spartanburg, South Carolina. Are they lesser BMWs than those made in der Fatherland ? The Lexus RX330 is made in Cambridge, Ontario and is one of the best selling and most successful luxury crossovers in the world. At the end of the day, I agree with Raven, I don't really care where a Saab is made, but more what it's made of. :o

[Skitzo]

What I should have said was not complain but sales are still good, like on the Audi those that know may care, but most who buy Audi's that I know REALLY do not care at all. Frankly they couldn't tell you that Audi and VW were related. The problem with Saab is that it is such a niche that none of the rules apply... once again GM messed up.

[Skitzo]

Hey, I mean BMW Z3's and X5's are made in Spartanburg, South Carolina. Are they lesser BMWs than those made in der Fatherland ? The Lexus RX330 is made in Cambridge, Ontario and is one of the best selling and most successful luxury crossovers in the world. At the end of the day, I agree with Raven, I don't really care where a Saab is made, but more what it's made of. :o

Could not have ever said it better. 9-2X = Saab build quality with bullit prove drive train and engine. Now the Delta platform and Ecotec....

[therealturbofan]

but guys, it's KOREA. the land of KIA's. do you want a saab, or a kia that costs as much as a saab?

maybe you don't care where it's made, but as for me, i don't want to pay a saab price for a car made in korea. one thing i actually appreciate about the Japanese is that many are assembled here in the united states, supplementing our economy. our economy is the one that needs to be supplemented, not korea's. we need to keep work here. if BMW is building cars here, awesome. think about this: would BMW, a respected marque, ever build cars in Korea? would mercedes benz? how about porsche? oh, but GM would. so let's be like GM, chevrolets and stuff, rather than trying to be like the brands saab is competing against. nobody wants to go look at an expensive "Euro"-lux sports sedan and see "place of manufacture: Korea." THAT'S what i have a problem with.

[Buddhabman]

I think the C&D article might be accurate. Subaru has mentioned that it is having design issues with adapting a diesel to the boxer engine. I don't understand the problems, but I read that the plan is for 2007/8 at teh earliest for a diesel. I am disappointed as I thought the B9 would be a nice base platform for the 9-6X. I could just imagine a turbo Boxer 6 as an Aero model. However the Theta platform based Equinox is pretty nice looking and pretty nice in execution. I think GM can work pretty good magic with suspension tuning, and drive dynamics with the Equinox, it has been well received thus far as is. We just have to face it, the old days of building Saab cars in Sweeden or Finland are over. Don't knock Hyundai, Daewoo or Kia, as their quality is coming up pretty nicely, hell Hyundai might be in a position to buy Saab. I hope the 9-3 Sport Conbi will help, but without AWD it's not going to be terribly exciting.

[therealturbofan]

one thing i'm apprehensive about is what kind of drivetrain they're going to put in the thing. the Equinox has an engine made in china with a transmission made in Japan. in an "american" SUV.

you say you can "just imagine" an Aero version with a turbo 6... RIIIIIIGHT... you guys crack me up. so you think that GM is going to cut costs by producing it in korea, then turn around a make an attempt at excitement with an aero model... pff, right. saab isn't in control anymore. expect excitement to decline, maybe even go away. if they wanted to put John Heinreicy in charge, however, maybe saab would get some of its excitement back... and maybe it's "state of independence"

and the day hyundai buys saab is the day i ultimately give up. yes, the quality may be coming up, but we're talking about initial quality. nothing's been proven about durability over the years. and not all their cars show quality--except of the poor variety. i drove a little Kia Rio. i know it's cheap, but they can't claim quality and still produce that little lump of -----. when i started it up, the coarse bumpy idle and the clunk heard when putting the Fischer-Price shifter into reverse made me think i was gonna break the dang thing, and it had less than 500 miles on it... already felt like it had 100k :o

again, it may be cheap, but those are the kinds of cars that korea is associated with.

[SaabKen]

Sure the bottom-dwelling econoboxes are made to budget, but have you driven the last-gen Cavalier ? Hello ?? Hyundai was barely on the global automotive map 20 years ago and look at them now. Give them another 10-15 years and we'd better watch out. And GM ? It's been in business for almost a century ? Like I said, have you driven the last-gen Cavalier ? No this is not an apple-to-apple comparison, because pretty soon the Korean automotive apple will be a global force to be reckoned with, and if the GM apple doesn't truly turn around soon it'll be eaten hollow by the worm that's within. Sorry for my bad analogies but don't knock Hyundai for what it was, but be watchful of what it will become.

My $0.25



and the day hyundai buys saab is the day i ultimately give up. yes, the quality may be coming up, but we're talking about initial quality. nothing's been proven about durability over the years. and not all their cars show quality--except of the poor variety. i drove a little Kia Rio. i know it's cheap, but they can't claim quality and still produce that little lump of -----. when i started it up, the coarse bumpy idle and the clunk heard when putting the Fischer-Price shifter into reverse made me think i was gonna break the dang thing, and it had less than 500 miles on it... already felt like it had 100k :o
again, it may be cheap, but those are the kinds of cars that korea is associated with.

[therealturbofan]

i haven't driven a last gen cavalier, but i've driven a second-to-last gen sunfire (2002 model i believe) and although underpowered i think it's a really nice little car. i enjoy how it feels, how it drives, stuff like that.

and notice, i'm not all that happy about GM's takeover anyway, so it doesn't help to tear down the cavalier. the econocar i'm impressed with is the Jetta... it feels nicer than domestic cars twice as expensive.

[Raven18940]

but guys, it's KOREA. the land of KIA's. do you want a saab, or a kia that costs as much as a saab?
Oh come now, you can't blame Koreian auto workers for Kia's crappy designs and materials. There's nothing wrong with the way the cars are built. If you put crap in an oven it's still crap 2 hours later, doesn't magically turn into roast beef. Nothing wrong with the oven. I think Korea could make quality cars if they use quality parts, they aren't a third world country.

[therealturbofan]

Oh come now, you can't blame Koreian auto workers for Kia's crappy designs and materials. There's nothing wrong with the way the cars are built. If you put crap in an oven it's still crap 2 hours later, doesn't magically turn into roast beef. Nothing wrong with the oven. I think Korea could make quality cars if they use quality parts, they aren't a third world country.

when did i EVER say anything at all about korean auto workers?:confused: and the problem with the cars is the way they are built, combined with materials and such. and what you just said has absolutely nothing to do with what i was saying :o. yeah, they could make quality cars, but they aren't really, and therein lies the problem.

ya know, i'm surprised more of you are upset about the 9-7x than you are about saabs being built in Korea...

[Raven18940]

I used to be upset about the 9-7X and the 9-2X, I got over it. Same with this, they'll setup a saab assembly line in Korea and it'll be just like they were made here or in Sweden. It's not like they're doing anything special in Sweden. As long as Saab engineers still have a hand in designing them that's good enough for me.

[therealturbofan]

the question is if they still do...

[SaabScott]

and the day hyundai buys saab is the day i ultimately give up. yes, the quality may be coming up, but we're talking about initial quality. nothing's been proven about durability over the years. and not all their cars show quality--except of the poor variety. i drove a little Kia Rio. i know it's cheap, but they can't claim quality and still produce that little lump of -----. when i started it up, the coarse bumpy idle and the clunk heard when putting the Fischer-Price shifter into reverse made me think i was gonna break the dang thing, and it had less than 500 miles on it... already felt like it had 100k :o

again, it may be cheap, but those are the kinds of cars that korea is associated with.

I have owned 2 Hyundais, totalling 450,000 kms (close to 300,000 miles) and they were absolutely fantastic cars!
The first was a 1993 Elantra ... drove it for 325,000 km's without a single major breakdown!
The car may have been lacking in sound insulation, but nothing else!

My wife and I like (and trusted) the car so much we bought a 1999 Elantra (both cars were brand new).
We put 125,000 km's on that one ...

Unfortunately, they were both in accidents ... and they both held up incredibly well!

So, the moral of the story is ... Saab could do a lot worse than to have Hyundai purchase them ... not that I think there is ever a chance that would happen ...

[apzer09]

Does it really matter where a car is built? Like someone else said, are BMWs built in South Carolina worse that those built in Munich? And considering some of the cars GM has built in Korea (ie. Chevy Aveo) are built better than those built in Ohio (ie. Chevy Cavalier), I would rather see that for Saab. Besides, who looks at the place on the window sticker that says where your car was assembled? :roll:

[therealturbofan]

apparently you don't. i do.

even car and driver labeled it "Swedish sacrilege." and they're not even saab fans.:cry:

[therealturbofan]

hehe i just noticed where you were from! i was born in ventura! :cheesy:

[Raven18940]

the question is if they still do...
That is the question now is it.

[therealturbofan]

would that have been some sarcasm on your part?:confused:

[Raven18940]

would that have been some sarcasm on your part?:confused:
No, general concern really. But what else can I do at this point? I just have faith that they won't totally screw this up. As long as they continue to make one or two great cars I'm happy. I have no problem with them trying to expand their customer base with the 9-7X and 9-6X cause odds are I'm never gonna buy one.

[apzer09]

No, general concern really. But what else can I do at this point? I just have faith that they won't totally screw this up. As long as they continue to make one or two great cars I'm happy. I have no problem with them trying to expand their customer base with the 9-7X and 9-6X cause odds are I'm never gonna buy one.
And Saab hopes they can keep somebody like you in the fold by maintaining their 9-3 and 9-5 models for the time being anyway. If this new 9-5x or 9-6x or whatever the hell it's called is sold in Europe, that'll hit a new segment that's supposedly starting to heat up. That will also make it the first of the newer Saabs to be sold outside of North America. And that really should help Saab globally.

[Fla2Cali]

I won't read too much into this until I hear it else where. GM knows they can not foil what left of the original SAABs (9-3, 9-5) they've mentioned that in many articles. The 9-3 and 9-5 are their core products...

In another thread I said how they would use the Theta platform for a smaller SUV to compete with the BMW X3, LR Freelander, and Volvo's upcoming XC50. Expect it to have unique looks and engines. I would think it would be called 9-4x... (SAAB/GM take note) that would make more sense and no cars would be affected.

The 9-6x is still planned. Its registered and thecarconnection mentions it today in a news article about the Subaru Tribeca which is really needed....will compete with the Lexus RX, Infiniti FX, BMW X5, Benz ML, Acura MDX, Volvo XC90 and LR LR3. This segment takes up alot of the luxury car market and SAAB needs to show their face. I think that the 9-6x may still be under consideration for Europe but for US it already set to arrive... didn't someone already say they've seen it at a consumer clinic?

[CleveSaab]

Most people assume KIA are horrible and cheap because of thier price tags.
Face it. It's true.
Many cars have failed throughout history simply because they were so inexpensive, people assumed they were junk.
A mid-sive SUV for under $20K. Must be junk.
The 'compact SUV' is under $17K. REALLY must be junk.
Thier most expensive car, thier PREMIUM Sedan, is $26K.


And whoever was bashing the Rio...come on man. It's starting price is $10,500. Yea, they may be subsidized but you DO get what you pay for. 100 HP? You were expecting what exactly from the Rio????
:cheesy:

[therealturbofan]

you just completely proved my point. :o


think about it. you say you get what you pay for. yes. you said kia's don't have a good rep. yes. you agree that kia's aren't exactly status symbols.

and now they're going to build saabs side by side with kias.

if you STILL don't get my point, then don't worry about it.

[aero1116]

This may seem dumb, but Kia is an acronym for "killed in action." I guess that kind of speaks the truth for what GM is planning to do with saab :roll:

[SaabKen]

I find it very interesting that, at least based on what I read on Saab forums, that a large number of people consider the 9-3 and 9-5 lines "true Saabs" of today :cool:

Now, I'm not disagreeing nor agreeing, but only making an observation of how things have changed. I'm sure back when 9-5 replaced 9000 (now there's a true Saab !) and the 9-3SS came out, Saabistis around the world were crying wolf. Anyway I'm not gonna start that debate again :roll:

My own prediction is there will be both a 9-5X and a 9-6X, each to be sold in different markets. Anyone wanna bet that the 9-6X will only be a North American model (because of no diesel) while the 9-5X will go global ?


I won't read too much into this until I hear it else where. GM knows they can not foil what left of the original SAABs (9-3, 9-5) they've mentioned that in many articles. The 9-3 and 9-5 are their core products...

In another thread I said how they would use the Theta platform for a smaller SUV to compete with the BMW X3, LR Freelander, and Volvo's upcoming XC50. Expect it to have unique looks and engines. I would think it would be called 9-4x... (SAAB/GM take note) that would make more sense and no cars would be affected.

The 9-6x is still planned. Its registered and thecarconnection mentions it today in a news article about the Subaru Tribeca which is really needed....will compete with the Lexus RX, Infiniti FX, BMW X5, Benz ML, Acura MDX, Volvo XC90 and LR LR3. This segment takes up alot of the luxury car market and SAAB needs to show their face. I think that the 9-6x may still be under consideration for Europe but for US it already set to arrive... didn't someone already say they've seen it at a consumer clinic?

[squishmann]

^^^^


I guarantee that won't happen. They can't afford to produce and market 3 suvs
They don't need 3 rows of seating but if this is supposed to be a mid-size platform then they should be able to stretch things to give it better interior dimensions. platforms are supposed to be designed to do that.

If the 9-6 is scrapped then do the 9-5X right by saab and have it ready for 2007 MY production and then get to work on the next 9-7X that should be based on the replacement GMT360 platform for 2008/9

[SaabKen]

If Saab pushes hard on GM they might be able to pull it off, conjecturally speaking of course.

Look at Isuzu North America. All they have now in N.A. are SUVs and trucks with a puny market share. Still they offer three SUVs, the Rodeo, Axiom and Ascender, plus a couple of pickups.




I guarantee that won't happen. They can't afford to produce and market 3 suvs

[squishmann]

^^^^


yes you are, domestics suck, all of them suck.

the new cobalt may have a nice feel but it certainly doesn't have the feel of VW's new Jetta



and Saabken would you rather have 3 suvs or 2 trucks and a Sonett. Isuzu is the Asian version of GMC

[Krg05-9-3]

the new cobalt may have a nice feel but it certainly doesn't have the feel of VW's new Jetta

It may not have the same Euro feel that a lot of us (myself included) love, but that's because it's not European.

A Honda Civic or Toyota Corolla don't have the the "feel" of a VW Jetta either, but that doesn't mean they aren't good cars.

I wasn't saying I prefer domestic cars over European cars, there is no comparison in my mind, BUT, I do think that the American automakers are finally starting to pump out quality vehicles that are very reliable. Do they catch my interest?...not really, are they flat out junk?...not by a long shot.

If I couldn't afford anything better than an economy car...I'd take a Cobalt over a Civic anyday.

[therealturbofan]

i think i misrepresented myself!! i am acually a domestic car fan, and if you look at some of my posts on other threads you'll see that the 300c is one of my favorite new cars.

ok, so the jetta thing was a bit of an exaggeration;oops:... but i said THERE ARE domestics that cost twice as much and don't feel as nice inside--which there are. pontiac's new bonneville GXP is a huge disappointment and lists at 38k. i know they've got rebates and crap to take them down around 30, but that's not the point.

i don't think the jetta of '99 to '04 started at 18k, did it? i thought it started low 17's. the only 25k jetta i've seen was absolutely amazing inside and i liked the interior as much as a 40k cadillac. but that's more a matter of personal preference :lol: .

squishymann, go squishy somewhere else. you obviously have absolutely no idea what you're talking about. you've probably only ever looked at a ford taurus or 90's cavalier and said "hey, this cavalier sucks. cadillacs must suck too. i bet they all have mouse fur seats!" that's like touching the tail of an elephant and saying that an elephant is like a rope. to say "domestics suck, all of them suck" just seems like such a statement of blind ignorance--not to mention the fact that your car has plenty of domestic influence.

i have looked at the new cobalts and am somewhat impressed, but i have yet to drive one. pretty soon here i'm going to be driving an '02 sunfire, and it's a pretty nice little car. the chassis is pretty buttoned down, precise steering, not much power but decent torque, decent radio... the car cost 12k brand new, so i can't complain. it's held up very well.

anyway, they don't suck. bye bye!

[apzer09]

The new Cobalt is good for a GM, but I still wouldn't buy it over a Civic or Jetta, which really doesn't help GM. There have only been a handful of domestic cars that I would strongly consider over Asian and European cars, such as the PT Cruiser (if you can get past the looks), Ford Focus, Corvette, 300C, and there may be some others. They are getting better, however.

[Lodro]

PT Cruiser (if you can get past the looks)

Wait a minute, aren't "the looks" the point of the PT? If you look at the car/platform itself its no great shakes. Though the overall packaging is good.

[therealturbofan]

civics suck... car and driver tested a new one. it had lots of rattles, and several shades in its metallic gray paint. really lame. yeah, i know honda quality is good and all, but i really think that the civic is too mass-produced to get real quality. the accord seems to be put together MUCH better.

besides, civics are like every 3rd car you see on the road...

and yes, the PT is mostly about the look and some about the packaging. the PT always draws strong feelings one way or another--i've never really heard somebody say "i like it a tiny bit, but it's not that great or that bad." it's either" those things are cool" or "eww gag me!! it's a mini hearse!"

personally, i love them. go drive a high-output GT turbo with the full, upscale leather interior. promise you'll at least enjoy it :cheesy: they're a hoot, especially for a "mini hearse"!!!:nono;

[apzer09]

As a small car, I like the PT. It's functional, affordable if you don't option it out too much, and very well built. It doesn't make sense to spend 25 grand on it, but a comparably equipped Matrix, Vibe, Impreza etc. has a lot to compete with. This is proof it doesn't matter where a car is built, it matters actually how well the company designed it. Honda proved it when they started building cars in Ohio.

[Krg05-9-3]

This is proof it doesn't matter where a car is built, it matters actually how well the company designed it. Honda proved it when they started building cars in Ohio.

I agree. The '04+ Acura TL is an amazingly well-built and reliable car, probably one of the best ever...and it's built alongside the equally well-built Accord in Ohio.

[therealturbofan]

funny how nobody responded to my civic comment...

[sethsev7n]

My parents own a dark blue PT cruiser... the only color that I think it looks decent in. But you're right, its built well and the shifting is tight and the exhaust note is good.. it feels like a solidly built american car with muted american styling, at least on the inside.

[therealturbofan]

it's gotta be a turbo one though. the non-turbo is just so-so. mmm... turbocharged... here's what's cool: there's more room in the PT turbo engine bay for modifications than in the SRT-4. in other words, you can fit straighter, less restrictive tubing and more importantly a larger intercooler. much more better!:) :cheesy:

[Buddhabman]

:roll: Can we get back on topic Please !:nono; . The "Sweedish Seoul" was about the Equinox platform for the new 9-6. The Equinox looks great to me when I see them on the road. The magazine reviews have been positive. I have decent confidence that the Saab designers will be able to put a great face and great dynamics on that truck. I am a bit disappointed that they aren't using the Subaru Tribeca platform , but I can handle the Equinox.

As to the 9-7, I see the Saab website has been updated with new graphic. I am a little amazed they haven't shown the truck rolling yet. It will be interesting to see the first commercials. When you look at the Saab site and roll over the "View all Vehicles" you see that it's not a bad lineup. All of those cars are better than decent. The 9-5, is great, needs stiffer springs, but everything else is sweet. The 9-3 is nice, hopefully they have knocked out the electric gremlins. As to the previous comments on the 9-2X, add a bit of sound deadening in the doors and you get the vacumm "thump" sound you are craving. The car still is built ruggedly, with crash test results to prove it. As nice as the new Volvo V50's are, I would still take the Saabaru 9-2. You can't beat it if you want to add a few treats to it. Then we have the 9-7, gotta get over the non-saabness deal. If GM and the Saab enginners did what they said they would do then the car will have a nice drive. One thing GM can do well if they focus on it is give you great drive dynamics. So keeping my fingers crossed. ;)

[therealturbofan]

I even prefer it over it's cousin, the Audi A4.

if you mean cousin by the fact that they have the same parent company then you're correct, but if you mean as in the jetta is based on the A4 chassis, that's not correct. it's the passat that's based on the A4. the passat and A4 have longitudinally mounted engines, while the jetta is transverse mounted. they're different cars.

of course it's much nicer than the cobalt... the base price starts at about 5k more! and it's also a volkswagen:cheesy:;)

[pznuttz]

shouldn't they have known a diesel wouldn't work before they started?

i want some of the stuff they're smoking.

even if they build a ute on this theta platform they still need something bigger. that's where the cash is. this would make the 3rd time they've failed in this project.

what were they smoking when they decided on the 9/7?:roll:

[pznuttz]

You know I always knew there was a reason that every car in my parents driveway was from Europe (actual European cars, like BMW not US owned comps) and Asia (well that was all me). Hell I'm MORE than happy to own a Saab that has a Fuji Heavy Industries stamp, who cares, it's a DAMN fine motor and the chassis in unflappable, what bugs me is when we start taking real econo box engines and stuffing them in Saabs. I mean the EJ20 (and maybe EJ25) carry on a proud tradition of lots of boost and capable of so much more on factory internals, just like Saab always has. I remember reading when I was getting back interested in Saab's that the 9-3 Viggen could hold 25psi of boost, I was blown away. Yet there are some things GM could do better, like use AWD platforms that are upcoming to actually let the brand compete with Volvo more and put a much better stamp on the market. Parts sharing is fine with me, I mean there is NO way that I could have ever dreamed of owning a Saab 9-2X exactly how it sits if it wasn't for GM, heck an AWD 2.0T with 227hp probably would have cost mid 30K range if Saab built the whole thing. What is really agravating is not all the part sharing, it's the cars that they choose to share parts with. No one seems to be complaining when Lexus uses so many Toyota parts, or Audi makes use of VW parts, etc. I just wish that Saab was owned by a real company, like Renault or Peugot that know how to build a turbo European car, not damn GM.

I just think about all this and wonder... you know they have the Saturn Sky platform, turbo that thing and throw on a badge while your at it.... if Saab is so doomed to low profits... SELL IT OFF!!! Give it back, I just wish that GM would stop complaining and find a way to put the company back to Trollhatten and back to us enthusiasts. I give a big AMEN to that!!!!:D

[therealturbofan]

Yep, I did know that...that's why I said cousin instead of sister. However, I think it's a commen misconception so I'm glad you pointed it out.

In my opinion, the new Jetta feels nicer than the Passat/A4, both of which are showing their age.

The new A6, also based on the Passat platform (I believe), is a different story. However, at $50k, it better be.

When the new Passat comes out this fall, that will be my new favorite VW/Audi. That car is absolutely amazing, and may be what replaces my 9-3 in a few years.

Or hopefully Audi will have a more appealing A4 based on the new Passat by then. I've always been drawn to Audi. I absolutely love VW, so natuarally I'd go to Audi if I wanted a premium car. But, I don't like Audi's recent designs. I think the new VWs look a lot classier, and even more expensive.

AFAIK the A6 is a different platform, it IS much larger. i think it's a different platform, but i'm not completely sure. maybe it's just a stretched version. but i do tend to think it's different... considering the 4.2 v8 fits very nicely in the A6 engine bay, even with twin turbos, as in the RS6 and that engine won't fit in the passat. who knows.

i actually can't remember seeing the new passat... guess i'm a little behind the 8-ball. i don't think car and driver has posted any kind of first look on it or anything. but i have heard a bit of talk about it. can't wait till it comes out. i've only looked at the new jetta from the outside, haven't had a chance to sit in it or drive it, but it looks really sweet. my problem is... the jetta/golf has always been a nice alternative to the corolla and civic, offering much better fit/finish/luxury for not too much more money... but now the base price of the jetta is like 6 grand over a base civic or corolla... now it's in a totally new class, the car isn't really even compact anymore. so i guess VW's are probably going to start stealing sales from audi rather than toyota...

doesn't seem like a good move to me!

[Krg05-9-3]

i actually can't remember seeing the new passat... guess i'm a little behind the 8-ball.

Enjoy!


http://www.speedycars.net/wallpaper/vw_passat.html

[drewsnav]

I really can't get over all of this national identity nonsense. It's a new world out there people!

Mercedes are built in India, South Africa, and Alabama. Does that make them less Mercedes?

Japanese cars are built in the US at the same rate "domestics" are built in Canada. Are we going to call them domestics then?

As for the $24K Jetta. Yes, its a great price. But buyer beware... it ages (like all VWs) at an amazingly quick pace. I know of very few models that have made it past 40,000 miles without major problems.

[Lodro]

As for the $24K Jetta. Yes, its a great price. But buyer beware... it ages (like all VWs) at an amazingly quick pace. I know of very few models that have made it past 40,000 miles without major problems.

Yep, VW's are defintely one car that is not built to last. Even the celebrated 1.8T engine is known for premature wear.

[Architosh]

The idea of customers buying back Saab to save the company is a total pipe-dream. But the government of Sweden could do it with the rest of SAAB. If GM gets to that point (ie: can't make money, don't know what to do, know buyers interested...) I can see Sweden buying back SAAB. Both Volvo and SAAB are like national treasures just as IBM is to the US.

[therealturbofan]

alright, enough veedub bashing. vw's are great cars. i know of tons of people with passat's going close to 100k with very few problems. i've seen the cars go a long way. most of the problems people are having are actually very minor problems, but are expensive to fix since the cars are german.

the 1.8T is a GREAT motor, with great performance and TONS of potential. it lasts pretty good too, from what i've heard. what do you consider "premature wear?"

thanks krg, i actually just got my new issue of car and driver yesterday and got to see some pics of it then. looks really nice!!

i just don't get where VW is going though. the jetta is too expensive, no matter how nice. we'll have to wait and see how the new Golf/GTI end up. they gotta keep something down below 20k....:o