Bob Lutz defends 9-7x

[wolverinewizard]

Interesting read. Maybe more people here should give it a shot before judging :confused:

http://fastlane.gmblogs.com/ (http://fastlane.gmblogs.com/)

[apzer09]

this is very reassuring, even though this speech has been given a few times now. the 9-7x is a much more convincing transformation than the 9-2x was from the WRX, and I hope people can get past the "media" hoopla of it being just a leather-clad Trailblazer, which it definetely isn't. and it may very well be worth the price Saab is asking for it.

[valbowski1980]

Kinda funny that he is defending it before it is even released to the general public. Bring on the rebates, it's the General Motors way.

[benji9k]

The center console is not only 1OO% Saab in design and execution, but also features the famed ignition in the area where the Golden Retriever can turn it off.

Nice. Very nice.

[Raven18940]

At their trying to make it a saab rather than just replacing the chevy badges with saab ones. *cough* 9-2X *cough*

[apzer09]

well, not to bash the 9-7x or anything, but the 9-7x needed more than a simple rebadge to make it passable as a Saab. The Trailblazer et. al. are so far from the Saab philosophy, it wasn't even concievable. The 9-2x is much closer (turbocharged, car for one thing) so it was a little better. Even then, I wish equal effort had been placed on the saabaru.

[wolverinewizard]

I'm starting to get tired of all the GM bashing around this forum :nono; the "saab philosophy" was leading it down a sink hole, and if GM hadn't stepped in SAAB would just be a footnote for the automotive history books. At least now they have a fighting chance, and these models, even if mildly successful, will at least help stop the bleeding. GM is the one, after all, that brought along the wonderful SS, which is what brought many of us to this site. No offense to the old schoolers here, but speaking as a Gen-Y guy, the old Saabs were Fugly, and you couldn't pay me to get in an old 900.

My point is, don't go jumping all over what GM's trying to do, without actually giving them a chance to do it. After all, they did save Saab's sorry a**, so we at least owe them some time to prove that they can turn it around.

Okay, done ranting now.

[Lodro]

..the old Saabs were Fugly, and you couldn't pay me to get in an old 900.

Well, if you think that then you don't understand the Saab design ethos at all. Hey, maybe you can go work at GM!

[Flash9-7x]

Wolverinewizard,

Thanks for the link. As a GM employee and a UM graduate (1977), I concur that there is a strong anti GM sentiment amongst some posters on this site. I truly hope that this vehicle is a financial success for both Saab and GM. As many know, GM has some challenges to face, and I hope this vehicle helps.

I have been a fan of Bob Lutz for awhile. Ever since I sent him a email regarding a concern and a proposal, and he actually replied. Trust me, I am not of high rank in this company, and it really meant something for an email that I sent on a lark, to be actually read and responded to. I like his attitude and I like his philosophy.

I respect others opposing views here and their passion for their positions. Just sometimes, they espouse tired old "anti-establishment" views that I promulgated 30-35 years ago. I trust that their views will become modified as they age. Mine certainly have.

[wolverinewizard]

Well, if you think that then you don't understand the Saab design ethos at all.

And how many cars were sold under the Saab design ethos? :roll:

[Fast_Ed]

Wolverine, I find it interesting that you're willing to give GM a chance but not the CLASSIC 900 that your 9-3SS was homogenized and pasteurized from. I thought the old SAABs were ugly, but I gave them a chance to grow on me. Sorry, I was about to defend GM, but calling c900's ugly is just plain mean, man. I am also not trying to portray my Viggen as a pure SAAB. It's not, and I can admit that without bashing any other car.

PS have any of you owned a SAAB with its light/foglight controls on either stalk? Mine have always had a 3-position rotary switch on the left (left drive) with a push button for fog lights. True for Viggen and c900. Though I have driven some American cars with such controls.

PPS who advertises something by telling the consumer that their dog can accidentally turn the car off and on? Why not talk about the safety aspect of this positioning (i.e. you dont cut yourself on the key in an accident.)

[wolverinewizard]

My point is simply that many here cling to their classics; which is fine, they're simply not my thing, but immediately attack any changes that are necessary to survive. Everyone's so eager to talk of GM flushing Saab down the toilet but are conveniently ignoring the fact that they were doing it to themselves.

I personally feel that if GM is willing to keep Saab afloat (which it sounds like they are) then in the future we'll have some great and exciting cars, so when I'm through with my SS I won't look to MB, Audi, BMW, or Cadillac.

[apzer09]

Has any Saab really been a true Saab? The 95 and 96 models were powered by a Ford V4 for half of their lives, the first 99 had a reworked Triumph engine, and the 9000 was an alliance between three other carmakers. Saab has really been more about their design influence, rather than things like where the light switches are and how many cylinders it has. Whenever they got the opportunity to design a car from the ground-up, they did. They didn't have that opportunity with the 9-7x, but a lot of Saab's engineers used their knowledge of Saab to influence the design, and it turned out pretty well.

Most importantly, it's much harder to tell a 9-7x from an Envoy than it is to tell an Envoy from a Trailblazer, Rainier, Bravada, or Ascender.

[SaabKen]

Most importantly, it's much harder to tell a 9-7x from an Envoy than it is to tell an Envoy from a Trailblazer, Rainier, Bravada, or Ascender.


Did you mean it's EASIER to tell a 9-7X from an Envoy then to tell between an Envoy from TB/Rainier/Bravada/Ascender ? That's what we want isn't it, a significant exterior differentiation between 9-7X and all of its cousins ?

[apzer09]

Did you mean it's EASIER to tell a 9-7X from an Envoy then to tell between an Envoy from TB/Rainier/Bravada/Ascender ? That's what we want isn't it, a significant exterior differentiation between 9-7X and all of its cousins ?

oh yeah, my bad. ;oops: that's right, I'm for the 9-7x and the future of Saab.

[Raven18940]

I have no problem with GM making saabs. They did a great job with the 9-3 and I love my 9-5 to death. After the saabaru, however, they have to regain creditablity with me and I'm not partial to SUVs. Plus I really don't like the look of the 9-7x, but again that's just me. However, it is like a saab in, of all places, the engine. A turbo charger is forced induction, essentially a bigger engine only when you need it and the new V8 has the same kind of technology. That's the closest I'm going to come to liking this thing I think. :confused:

[jchastn]

:cool: GM has committed alot of cash to saving Saab from what was an inevitable demise. To have an profitable company, Saab can't ignore the entry level (9-2x) or the SUV. If the way to introducing these positions is mostly GM at first, we can only hope that as these models mature, the Saab influence becomes stronger. I drove a 9-2x before I fell in love with my 9-5. I could see the Subaru WRX (which in its own right is a fun car) in it, but it is not a WRX. It is way more stylish,comfortable,and fun. GM makes a great SUV. There are very few SUV platforms that they could have used that would make a better, stronger SUV. The cost of designing a vehicle from scratch is astronomical, and Saab sales are not currently justifying that expenditure.


Its important to remember the origins of Saab. The pre-GM Saabs were exciting vehicles, full of innovation and fun and originality. Not so reliable. The GM Saabs may have less innovation, but they are still fun and stylish and original. The post-GM Saabs(if there are any) may well be made in China, Korea, or FRANCE.:evil: That would suck majorly, so I am rooting for GM to make a success of Saab. Like I keep saying, I LOVE this car. :cheesy:

[TC]

Posted by Raven

I have no problem with GM making saabs. They did a great job with the 9-3 and I love my 9-5 to death. After the saabaru, however, they have to regain creditablity with me and I'm not partial to SUVs. Plus I really don't like the look of the 9-7x, but again that's just me. However, it is like a saab in, of all places, the engine. A turbo charger is forced induction, essentially a bigger engine only when you need it and the new V8 has the same kind of technology. That's the closest I'm going to come to liking this thing I think. :confused:

Raven-In order for Saab to continue making cars that you love like your 9-5, vehicles like the 9-2X and 9-7X have to be successful. If these vehicles do not make Saab profitable GM will sell the brand to Japan or France. If this happens I can guarantee Saabs will not be made in Sweden. It is too expensive to manufacture cars in Trollhatten. You should be thanking GM for continuing production in Sweden because no other mnfctr would do this. Bottom line is Saab needs to sell more vehicles. In order to do so it has to appeal to more people so it needs more products. I am not a fan of SUV's but I do understand the needs they satisfy and if by Saab having one means the continued production in Sweden of the 9-3 and 9-5 then I am all for it. Saab does not have the sales #'s to justify building new products from scratch. Unfortunately the 9-5 and 9-3 did not sell enough to bring in enough cash for the billions of dollars required for research and design and plant modifications in Trollhatten to bring a completely new vehicle to market.

[Raven18940]

You know, after arguing about SUVs in other threads I've become much more accepting of them. As long as safety concerns are addressed, and they are being taken care, I have no issues with SUVs anymore. With 9-7 it's just a styling issue for me (and the fact that I inherently don't like SUVs, I like being low to the ground), but there are plenty of vehicles I thought were ugly that sold well. Look at the Porsche Cayenne, that thing is fugly and it's selling nicely. And if BMW can sell any X3's then Saab should have no trouble selling the 9-7. So I've actually got high hopes for the 9-7 now, maybe it'll be just what saab needs to really be competitive.

As for the 9-2, I've become much more accepting of that as well after some one layed out all the changes saab made to the car. I would have liked a little more effort in the interior, but they actually tweaked the car quite a lot. And since saab hasn't actually made an original car in quite a while, but rather just tweaked other cars I say it's ok by me now. What I really think they need to do is offer it in sedan/coupe trim rather than just a wagon. I think that would sell a lot better.

[inertia93]

I actually think the 9-2x still makes more sense. A Subaru, even barely disguised, is closer to the saab market than a chevy, even with a center ignition switch. A saab SUV?? come on now...


this is very reassuring, even though this speech has been given a few times now. the 9-7x is a much more convincing transformation than the 9-2x was from the WRX, and I hope people can get past the "media" hoopla of it being just a leather-clad Trailblazer, which it definetely isn't. and it may very well be worth the price Saab is asking for it.

[valbowski1980]

In order for Saab to continue making cars that you love like your 9-5, vehicles like the 9-2X and 9-7X have to be successful.

I dissagree.

In order for SAAB to make cars that we love it should avoid making vehicles like this. By building vehicles like the 9-2X and the 9-7X, SAAB/GM is admitting defeat. Had they taken the platforms of the Impreza and the TB and built totally original products things would have been different. SAAB cannot compete with BMW, ACURA, LEXUS and other big fish by building cars like this. Why isn't this blatantly obvious?

[wolverinewizard]

They can't compete if they go out of business

[Swade]

Good evening gents. First post for me.

I've been quite critical of GM and Saab on my weblog (http://redinterior.typepad.com/trollhattan/). I agree with many of the other post-ers here that the Subaru is closer in style to a true Saab. There are definitely synergies there between Saab and Subaru that GM are wise to explore. Much more so than with the Trailblazer.

Despite all my kicking and screaming, I can however acknowledge the fact that Saab needs to gain more acceptance among the North American automotive public. Having visited there last year, it's quite clear to me that in order to do that, a vehicle like the 9-7x is a necessary evil. (I'm quite old school about these things, so the idea of a huge V-8 Saab is quite against the grain).

My main wish (again on the blog (http://redinterior.typepad.com/trollhattan/2005/02/a_92x_wishlist.html)) is that they'd put the effort into the 9-2x interior that they put into the 9-7x. It's likely a compromise with Subaru in order to preserve their market share, as GM has a relatively minor stake in Suuby, but still, the benefits to the 9-2x would have been enourmous.

[valbowski1980]

They can't compete if they go out of business

They also can't compete by making halfassed products like these. Take a look at what the competition brings to the table.

[apzer09]

They also can't compete by making halfassed products like these. Take a look at what the competition brings to the table.

But by pricing it thousands less (before incentives) than competitors, they do have a slight leg up. Also, they can claim they have more horsepower and standard equipment. Basically, the 9-7x isn't the bad value you think it is, considering it has more features and is priced less than comparable models from Volkswagen, Volvo, Mercedes, BMW, and even its own GM counterparts.

[valbowski1980]

But by pricing it thousands less (before incentives) than competitors, they do have a slight leg up. Also, they can claim they have more horsepower and standard equipment. Basically, the 9-7x isn't the bad value you think it is, considering it has more features and is priced less than comparable models from Volkswagen, Volvo, Mercedes, BMW, and even its own GM counterparts.

The people who buy those comprable vehicles aren't concerned with saving a few grand. If SAAB was gunning at Honda, Toyota, Ford and such then things would be different. Do you really think that someone licking their chops over an X5 is going to care about incentives?

[apzer09]

Not necessarily, since sales of the M-class, X5, and the like are always energized by special offers. Luxury brands aren't reaching just the affluent buyers, but those who come close to being able to afford a loaded Expedition, or a somewhat optioned out SRX or therefore, 9-7x.

[Lodro]

Not necessarily, since sales of the M-class, X5, and the like are always energized by special offers. Luxury brands aren't reaching just the affluent buyers, but those who come close to being able to afford a loaded Expedition, or a somewhat optioned out SRX or therefore, 9-7x.

Exactly right. I started looking at higher-end vehicles when I realized I could lease an X3 at about the same pmt. as some lesser vehichles. There really is only a hundred or two hindred dollar a month difference on some in practical terms, certainly not an insurmountable barrier, it is much more a question of priorites then super high wealth. ANd just because you are spending alittle more doesn't mean that you don't care what you are paying!! As it turns out, I am extermely happy w/ my new Outback XT at 10k less!! Lets see, almost as much cargo room, low cg, 0-60 in 6 secs, handles very nicely, more ground clearance (1.6" more than 9-7x), beautiful interior, hard to argue with that kind of value..

[Raven18940]

The people who buy those comprable vehicles aren't concerned with saving a few grand. If SAAB was gunning at Honda, Toyota, Ford and such then things would be different. Do you really think that someone licking their chops over an X5 is going to care about incentives?
Yes, my dad got a 9-5 because it was the same size as a BMW 530 or a Audi A6, but cost thousands less, went faster, and got reasonable gas mileage. He has since switched to an audi because he wanted AWD and saab didn't offer it. Saab does really well with value for money people, the upper middle class. People who want a nice, well built car, but don't wanna pay 10K for a BMW badge. People who could afford a loaded expedition, but don't wanna hafta get it serviced at the ford dealer with the focus owners. They just the most for their money, a well-built car/suv, and to be threated better than garbage.

[McG]

Good evening gents. First post for me.


My main wish (again on the blog (http://redinterior.typepad.com/trollhattan/2005/02/a_92x_wishlist.html)) is that they'd put the effort into the 9-2x interior that they put into the 9-7x. It's likely a compromise with Subaru in order to preserve their market share, as GM has a relatively minor stake in Suuby, but still, the benefits to the 9-2x would have been enourmous.

I agree with this.

They plan on keeping the 9-7X around for a while. apparantly, which justifies the financial commitment to an interior design. The 9-2X is truly an interim model, and will be replaced in the next 1-2 model years. Makes less sense to invest in any dort of design efforts.

[Swade]

I've just posted a treatise (http://redinterior.typepad.com/trollhattan/2005/03/an_open_offer_t.html) to Bob Lutz on the turning-around of Saab.

A thought: a Swedish modified 9-7x competing in the Paris-Dakar :o . Why not think big?? :cheesy:

[SAABturboDRIVR]

And how many cars were sold under the Saab design ethos? :roll:

Millions of cars.

[SaabKen]

I've just posted a treatise (http://redinterior.typepad.com/trollhattan/2005/03/an_open_offer_t.html) to Bob Lutz on the turning-around of Saab.

A thought: a Swedish modified 9-7x competing in the Paris-Dakar :o . Why not think big?? :cheesy:


Whew, quite a piece of motivation there Steven. Did ya attend an Anthony Robbins seminar or somethin' ? Like you folks would say, "Good on ya, mate !"

[Swade]

Whew, quite a piece of motivation there Steven. Did ya attend an Anthony Robbins seminar or somethin' ?


No Ken. I've seen the tapes on TV but Anthony Robbins ain't my thing. He looks a little too much like 'Jaws' in the James Bond films. I just got a little fed up with the complaints on Bob's 9-7x comments thread. I also realised that I'd contributed to them. As much as I think the 9-7x concept might have been the wrong path, there's every chance it's a great drive and I think it's important to point that out.

I'm really worried that my favourite make of car might cease to exist. It'd be an incredible shame and I really think it's totally unnecessary. Other companies can do it. Saab can do it too.

[Raven18940]

Where's the turbo I-6?
Best comment in the whole thread :cheesy:

[sethsev7n]

:cool: GM has committed alot of cash to saving Saab from what was an inevitable demise. To have an profitable company, Saab can't ignore the entry level (9-2x) or the SUV.

I disagree. Since when, to have a profitable company, must you bow down to massive pool of middle class buyers so they have an opportunity to bite at a more premium brand name? This will always drag a company down. Even the cheapest BMW starts at over $29k.




Valbowski, you and I need to take over Saab together :cheesy:

[Swade]

Valbowski, you and I need to take over Saab together :cheesy:

Take a number Gents.

[Evan]

Swade,

Excellent post! Very positive and forward thinking. GM and Mr Lutz need to rethink the Americanization of SAAB. People in the US buy BMW, Audi, Porsche and the like BECAUSE THEY ARE SO EUROPEAN! Rallying may not be understood well here, but it is everywhere else. The 9-7x, 9-2x, 9-3sc, 9-6x and whatever comes next, should be focused on competing with the big guys of Europe. The buyers in the US will follow as loyal customers when given a choice. Personally, I would not be caught dead in a BMW or a Caddy for that matter. I am more of the Saab/Volvo mentality as are many if not most of Saab owners. The Rally mindset and the saftey/environment ARE appreciated both by owners in the US, and those in Europe. I'm with you, full speed ahead. Anything BMW can do, so can Saab, if given the chance. Mr Lutz, are you getting this?

[jchastn]

I disagree. Since when, to have a profitable company, must you bow down to massive pool of middle class buyers so they have an opportunity to bite at a more premium brand name? This will always drag a company down. Even the cheapest BMW starts at over $29


There are entry level Bimmers and Mercs. There are Bimmer and Merc SUVs. Neither of these companies have ignored those market segments. By "entry level" I don't mean econo-box. I mean a sedan or coupe that the middle to upper middle class buyer who wants to "go european" can afford. This is an extremely important segment because most of these folks (if they have a good experience) will buy a more expensive model of the same brand as they get older and their incomes grow. I test drove the 9-2x before I bought my 9-5. It is a very fun car even though in some ways it resembles the Subaru WRX. If it proves popular, it will make Saab profitable now and in the future when those 9-2 drivers have kids and want a 9-5 wagon or a 9-7 suv. :)

[sethsev7n]

And another thing, Lutz shouldnt be having to defend the vehicle before anyone even sees it. A vehicle speaks for itself, and this one is. Ok, so its not just a rebadged rainer but its not a true european car either, sorry (er suv). Either way, I find it funny that Lutz is defending it. It will be more of a success than the 9-2x for sure, but probably not what everyone is looking for. Again like I said, wait for the combi to come out. Thats gonna be good :)

[apzer09]

He's defending it because of all of the negative press that botched the 9-2x launched, claiming it was just a WRX with a nose job. They've put a lot more time and effort into the 9-7x and he doesn't want to see it wasted on a bunch of journalists who don't know all of the facts. It's been severely modified, and it's very different from the other vehicles on the platform. Trust me, seeing it, touching it, and sitting it can really change your opinion about it.

[wolverinewizard]

On another note; this is the longest thread that I've ever started :cheesy:

[Eric van Spelde]

I'm starting to get tired of all the GM bashing around this forum :nono; the "saab philosophy" was leading it down a sink hole, and if GM hadn't stepped in SAAB would just be a footnote for the automotive history books. At least now they have a fighting chance, and these models, even if mildly successful, will at least help stop the bleeding. GM is the one, after all, that brought along the wonderful SS, which is what brought many of us to this site. No offense to the old schoolers here, but speaking as a Gen-Y guy, the old Saabs were Fugly, and you couldn't pay me to get in an old 900.



Look at the articles written about Saab in the worldwide motoring press during the Eighties when the classic 900 was in its heydays and the 9000 was new. The press were *raving* about these cars, and reckoned they were well up with BMW, Audi and even Porsche in most respects, whilst being well ahead in others.

There's simply NO Saab product launched since GM took over that could remotely considered as leading in its segment. The 9-3 Sports Sedan comes close, but lacks steering weight and feedback, interior quality and a truly charismatic drivetrain. To add insult to injury, BMW is launching a new 3-series which represents a big step forward in most directions compared to the current generation which is still being considered as class leading.

There's no use in 'saving' a premium badge if you can't deliver products to match. The classic 900 turbo's were considered by leading motoring journalists to be amongst the best cars in the world when they first came out, and went on to be a design icon - something the 'me too' Sport Sedan will never achieve. BMW, Volvo, VW and Porsche all entered the SUV segment with product designed and engineered to the high standards set by their respective passenger car ranges. GM tries to compete with something based on a $15,000 pick up truck platform. And that's called 'saving Saab's b*tt' (what Saab? All what's left is the badge - there isn't even a Saab design/engineering team anymore) - well, thanks, but no thanks.

[Swade]

Eric, I like your style. Both here and at the GM blog. It's about time this brand kicked some butt again.

When Bob Lutz eventually accepts my offer (http://redinterior.typepad.com/trollhattan/2005/03/an_open_offer_t.html) to run this show (like he has a choice?!) i'll bring you in. BMW is the target, and I'm a hell of a good shot.

[SaabKen]

Echoes the auto media's view of 9-3SS, which has always been: it's a dang good car, but just not quite GOOD ENOUGH !

http://www.caranddriver.com/article.asp?section_id=39&article_id=1773&page_number=1 (http://www.caranddriver.com/article.asp?section_id=39&article_id=1773&page_number=3)

http://www.caranddriver.com/article.asp?section_id=15&article_id=7785&page_number=1
(http://www.caranddriver.com/article.asp?section_id=15&article_id=7785&page_number=1)
http://automobilemag.com/reviews/sedans/saab_9_3/index.html

IMO Matthew Phenix of Automobile summed it up best when he said:

"At 27,701 miles, we filled up the 9-3 for the last time; its twelve months with us drew to a close not with a bang but with a whimper. And yet, despite underhood uncertainties, the question "How was it?" seemed strangely less important than "Why is it?" No one seemed sure where this compact Saab for the new era fit into the automotive firmament. Senior editor Joe Lorio wrote, "When I first drove this car, I pondered what would make it stand out among the vast field of $30,000-or-so sport sedans, many of which are exemplary autos. I still wonder. The 9-3 is not a standout in any area. That's bad news for a small-volume brand in a segment where automotive excellence is widespread."





Eric, I like your style. Both here and at the GM blog. It's about time this brand kicked some butt again.

When Bob Lutz eventually accepts my offer (http://redinterior.typepad.com/trollhattan/2005/03/an_open_offer_t.html) to run this show (like he has a choice?!) i'll bring you in. BMW is the target, and I'm a hell of a good shot.

[apzer09]

Personally, I don't agree with what they said over at Automobile mag (I rarely do), and I think the 9-3 is a better car than it gets credited for. That said, I do agree it's not quite earth-shattering enough to make Saab really noticed. For that matter, none of its current products are. GM needs to take a chance on Saab, and all of their brands for that matter. Give 'em a new sports car, NOW!!!

[ApolloBoy]

I don't really like the 9-7X. Despite the changes like the Saab front end and the floor-mounted ignition, it still looks like a TrailBlazer. The fuel economy doesn't wow me either. I'm not too fond of SUVs anyway...

[Swade]

There's a recurring theme running through here, and Bob's blog. The 9-7x and 9-2x just don't do for anybody what the 9-3x concept promised.

Anyone up for a big petition to be sent to Bob? 1000 signatures would have to get noticed, right? (OK, maybe not)

[ApolloBoy]

There's a recurring theme running through here, and Bob's blog. The 9-7x and 9-2x just don't do for anybody what the 9-3x concept promised.

Anyone up for a big petition to be sent to Bob? 1000 signatures would have to get noticed, right? (OK, maybe not)

Online petitions NEVER work. The reason why is because the people who recieve them regard them as junk mail and delete it.

[Swade]

The idea is just to get them to take notice. Spelled out clearly - we're your marque's fans, and this is what we'd like. We're the ones that would bother and care enough to tell you.

It won't change anything, but it'd be something for them to think about.

I dunno. Probably a dumb idea.

[SaabKen]

Great idea Swade, but I suppose it's only the means of execution that makes it challenging (hardcopy signed petition works but not feasible).



The idea is just to get them to take notice. Spelled out clearly - we're your marque's fans, and this is what we'd like. We're the ones that would bother and care enough to tell you.

It won't change anything, but it'd be something for them to think about.

I dunno. Probably a dumb idea.