I want this Aero!!!!! [Archive] - SaabCentral Forums

: I want this Aero!!!!!


JeremyFrost
17th September 2002, 06:21 AM
Check Abbotts for sale bit. They have a '96 Aero with the whole Abbott setup including LSD, water injection, high flow intercooler, 18" Kahn alloys and 4 pot disks. Must kick out over 320bhp. I am finding out how much they want for it. Problem is I am selling a flat, so won't really have the money for a month or two. Maybe, I'll speak to the bank......

V.J.S
17th September 2002, 06:51 AM
I don't want just THAT Aero, but I do fancy a mid -90's 9000 Aero...Two more days for the Finnish import tax descision, I've already surfed for months in the used cars for sale webpages in Germany and Sweden...

-Ville

tom
17th September 2002, 06:55 AM
I bet the finish goverment will find a way to collect our money anyway, so I'm not getting my hopes up. that much :)

JeremyFrost
17th September 2002, 06:56 AM
Totally over the top car for my needs, but if the price is right, it's oh sooo tempting. Must be awesome. Main problems will be insurance and leaving the thing parked in the street. It must really push the limits of front wheel drive, though.

Guest
17th September 2002, 10:36 AM
Sorry to spoil the party guys... there's a typo in the price... it's meant to be 9,995 not 3,995!

I had to check...

Still, it's encouraging for me if I consider selling... OK mine's a 93 but it's had the same stuff done with the exception of the ported head and rear strut brace... and it's 270hp (with 330lbft). Abbott's one is 280hp (says so in the ad!)

JeremyFrost
17th September 2002, 11:10 AM
Bubbles,

Are you looking at the same one as there is no price on their website? There are a couple of 9000's listed below the monster Aero. I mailed Abbott to get a price. 10 grand is kinda what I expected given the spec/age. It says it has the 280BHP ECU upgrade - total power must be way in excess of that, surely? If not, it makes the 800 283bhp Maptun upgrade seem worthwhile. I was looking at a highly moded 9000 Abbott'd Aero a while ago and that was 310bhp - without the water injection kit & with sports cat.

By the way, am I right in thinking that the APC is controlled by a separate ECU to that of the engine? If so, do some tuners mod both? Or am I barking up the wrong tree?

Jez

BillJ
17th September 2002, 01:14 PM
By the way, am I right in thinking that the APC is controlled by a separate ECU to that of the engine? If so, do some tuners mod both? Or am I barking up the wrong tree?
This was teh case on earlier 9000s, where fuel, ignition and APC were all separate. Then ignition and APC were integrated into one unit (the "DI/APC") and finally fuel was added in Trionic. All Aeros have Trionic, and I believe all other 9000 turbos from '93.

Trionic is probably the best from a tuner's point of view, as they can make everything work together more easily.

For the earlier cars, yes, many tuners provide both APC and fuel upgrades.

JeremyFrost
17th September 2002, 01:37 PM
I see - all is clear. Thanks, Bill. :)

Guest
18th September 2002, 02:37 AM
Jez,

Yup, it's the same one. The 3995 price was removed AFTER I'd phoned Giles. :roll:

As far as power goes... std Aero is 225hp. The Abbott ECU mod alone is quoted as being worth circa 40hp- for a "standard" 200hp. I don't know if it gives you as much for an Aero, but what is does do is give you the mapping to cope with tweaked boost etc (AFAIK there's no difference between Abbott's ECU's for the std and Aero 2.3T)

Of the other bits listed, quoted gains are:
Head 12hp
Intercooler 10hp
Exhaust system
- downpipe 6hp
- mid section 6hp
- back box 6hp
- cat bypass 7hp
Filter 2hp

So that's in theory at any rate another 49hp... but there must surely be a limit on the returns and perhaps each of the above might make the stated difference in isolationn but once they're all together, other factors may limit the cumulative power increase.

Or, put another way, on mine as I've everything else except the head, I could expect 200+40+37= 277hp. On my recent rolling road session, it was 272hp- and I'm running considerably more than stock boost (holding 1.25 bar). Staying at, say, 1 bar would I reckon lose about 15hp or so, thus I'm back to 257hp- 20 short of what the mods in total reckon.

So, to answer your question, 280hp is probably a reasonable figure if the boost hasn't been much increased over stock. What will be more interesting of course, is the torque.

JeremyFrost
18th September 2002, 12:50 PM
Mmm, I am a little confused. The Aro that I was looking to buy was supposed to have 310bhp with all the bits that this one has except the injection kit and cat bypass. Are Abbott fibbing?

Speedparts 800 stage 3 kit is supposed to kick out 283bhp and around 300lb of torque. Surely the other bits (head, dump valve, high flow intercooler) are going to make more difference than that? :-??

V.J.S
18th September 2002, 12:58 PM
I was just thinking, buying such a highly tuned machine, wouldn't it take some of the fun out of being a turbo Saab owner? You know, all the tweaks one can think of are already done :-?? Is there any more to be done for the ever growing hunger for boost, or does one have to settle for hanging those fuzzy dices to the rear view mirror and glueing of funny bumper stickers?

-Ville

JeremyFrost
19th September 2002, 03:29 AM
Fair comment. Also, this car would stand out with its Kahn alloys, etc. Tempting, though as it could save me a lot of dosh, depending on how far I want to take mine. I should be sensible as the Aero is my day to day form of transport (yes, I am a lucky git!), so I will probably limit myself to suspension, a Speedparts upgrade and one or two other bits and bobs.

Ken
19th September 2002, 06:12 AM
Some times you have to take the stated power improvements of individual items with a pinch of salt :wink:

JeremyFrost
20th September 2002, 11:32 AM
Sure, but I reckon that this car would be a monster. At least 10,500, though, which is a lot of dosh. :o

BillJ
20th September 2002, 06:42 PM
At least 10,500, though, which is a lot of dosh.
Wow! I'll shortly be insuring my '96 Aero for 6000, including all the mods. Even at 6000 for the standard car (that's probably what you'd pay - Howe Engineering recently sold a '97 manual Aero for about 6500, in very nice condition too), all I've paid is 500 for an exhaust, 400 for an ECU, 700 for the suspension (more than I'd pay if I had to do it again) and 50 for a K&N filter. Oh, and a couple of hours of my time to modify the airbox and throw in 400 for a brand new set of Bridgestone S-03s for good measure.

Even at an exorbitant rate for my own time, that comes to a lot less than 10,500, and I know where it's been.

Oh, almost forgot: the end result (with no wheelspin on the straight in the dry from 2nd gear up, and not much coming out of roundabouts either) - 305hp/330lbft with over 310lbft from 2500-5000RPM. 0-60 in well under 6 secs (9000s will never be the best car off the line), 0-100 in well under 14 secs (I'll try to do a proper run this weekend and not spin the wheels this time), 40-70 (2nd gear!) faster than you can say "forty to seventy".

And it goes round corners quite well too 8)

No credit due - I just added the Maptun power bolt-ons, the Abbott suspension bolt-ons and chose the grippiest tyres I could find (OK, I deserve credit for lookiong for the tyres).

If you're talking Abbott, loook at what Bubbles has had to go through after the Abbott ECU to get power and torque approaching mine. Now an LSD might be worth having, but I reserve judgement until after the Abbott track day as I know there are disadvantages too.

All figures rounded up to the nearest 50.

murphwiz
20th September 2002, 06:46 PM
Oh, almost forgot: the end result (with no wheelspin on the straight in the dry from 2nd gear up, and not much coming out of roundabouts either) - 305hp/330lbft with over 310lbft from 2500-5000RPM. 0-60 in well under 6 secs (9000s will never be the best car off the line), 0-100 in well under 14 secs (I'll try to do a proper run this weekend and not spin the wheels this time), 40-70 (2nd gear!) faster than you can say "forty to seventy".

I can humbly confirm all of the above claims... I still have the G-froce sickness to prove it.... :o :o (and the empty wallet trying to emulate it in some small way in my 9-5) :lol: :lol: 8)

Guest
23rd September 2002, 04:35 AM
If you're talking Abbott, loook at what Bubbles has had to go through after the Abbott ECU to get power and torque approaching mine. Now an LSD might be worth having, but I reserve judgement until after the Abbott track day as I know there are disadvantages too.


Ooh! How Wude!

Actually I'm beginning to wonder if the hybrid turbo I've got is ideally suited to my setup; I need to try to do something to solve the overboost at low revs problem. I might have to resort to trying a TD04 for comparison; if I can find one :roll: (mind you, it's an expensive do with gaskets etc).

As far as the LSD goes, there are two only two "disadvantages" that I've found so far:

a) If you boot it in a straight line in the wet, you have more of a problem steering because you get both wheels spinning rather than just one

b) Possible faster wearing of both tyres 'cos it's just such huge fun coming out of the corners in the dry.


You can make your own mind up as to how you might like to deal with the above...

BillJ
23rd September 2002, 08:27 AM
Ooh! How Wude!

Not really (at least not intentionally). You're getting loads of power, which is the main thing. However, because you started off small and added things as you went, you had to fit lots of bits to get there. I realise I started out with a bigger turbo, but on top of that, all I did was change the exhaust and ECU, then opened up the airbox a bit. All I'm really saying is that it's less hassle to set your sights on what you ultimately want (if you know what that is), then head straight in that direction without trying to do it incrementally. The only increment I did, really, was to do the exhaust first because I needed an exhaust and because I knew it was required for the Stage 2 upgrade.

Having said that, it's hard to know at the start where you will want to be at the end. Here's a question: will Abbott reprogram the ECU to take account of new upgrades? e.g. at some point I'll probably want to fit larger injectors and I know that Maptun will modify my ECU program to suit the new injectors for around 40 (plus shipping each way, of course). Same thing if I wanted to move up to the TD04HL-18T turbo instead of the standard 15T (don't think I could put up with any more lag, though).

I get the impression that Abbott only do one ECU (per engine configuration) and that it is designed for an otherwise standard car. I'd be pretty sure that your current software is not able to make the best of your hybrid turbo. The overboost threshold is fixed by the software, for example.

On the LSD, I'm simply reserving judgement in the hope that I will be able to try one out soon :wink:

If I was worried about tyre wear, I'd be driving something else entirely :lol:

Guest
23rd September 2002, 09:09 AM
No offence taken Bill, don't worry... it's just bugging (intriguing?) me why you're getting substantially more than the claimed Maptun ouput of 275hp. I think the really useful comparison to do would be to plot boost pressure along with the power torque. It's a pity though that our ECU's aren't interchangeable 'cos I think it would make fo rand interesting comparison to try different ECU's on different mechanical set-ups.

Interestingly, I didn't start out that "small"- the car already had the Abbott ECU and exhaust on when I bought it.

I'd have liked to have got down to the Hemel Kodak meet where we could have mulled over the finer points in more depth but I really ought to tackle the mountain of jobs that have ammassed post house move last week...

JeremyFrost
23rd September 2002, 07:42 PM
Interesting that Speedparts quote 283bhp for a similar upgrade to yours, Bill. It does make Abbott mods look like pi$$ poor value for money. Almost decided to do the stage 3 speedparts upgrade along with konis and pi's. As a total package, it's almost half the price of going to Abbott. Can't wait to get the bits fitted! :lol: :lol:

BillJ
24th September 2002, 02:53 AM
it's just bugging (intriguing?) me why you're getting substantially more than the claimed Maptun ouput of 275hp.

For a start, I'm assuming that the Power Engineering dyno figures are optimistic, although nothing and no-one is going to stop me quoting 300+bhp :lol:

Secondly, at that sort of power output, I'd expect the standard intake to be rather limiting, and Maptun make no mention of intake mods on their web site in conjunction with the Aero Stage 2 upgrade. I have modified the airbox so that the cross-sectional area of the intake pipe is probably twice what it was. Even though it is now pointing backwards rather than forwards, I imagine this would make quite an improvement to airflow.

Interestingly, I didn't start out that "small"- the car already had the Abbott ECU and exhaust on when I bought it.

That's actually what I meant by "starting small". The Abbott ECU, as far as I know, is a lot less "ambitious" than the Maptun ECU. I still feel that the ECU is limiting your torque output. The turbo can obviously give more boost than the ECU wants you to have, hence the fuel cut at lower RPM.

As you say, unfortunately, my ECU wouldn't work in your car (I'm told it wouldn't start the engine without my VSS system giving the go-ahead). It would be interesting to see what your turbo could do if it weren't hamstrung by what sounds like quite a low overboost limit.

Do you have a proper boost gauge? How much boost are you getting? Mine tops out at around 1.6 bar, which is obviously what is producing all that lovely torque.

Guest
24th September 2002, 04:54 AM
Yup, I've got a decent guage sitting atop my dash in line of sight. Peak boost is about 1.5 bar for me, and as I recall we both hit circa 330lbft, although yours held up for longer. Fuel cutoff seems to creep in just about 1.5 bar, so that's a limit for me.

As the revs go up, the boost falls back to about 1 bar; as I said earlier I think I can raise this by altering the preload/bleed ratio, although I will need a lower pressure actuator (currently 0.83 bar) to do this.

I must admit I've wondered about the intake setup and whether it was adequate. It looks a mightly small hole to me... but I've heard that induction kits don't work very well. Maybe I'll take a look at yours sometime.

Like I said, it would be a really interesting exercise to plot boost pressure vs power and torque...

BillJ
24th September 2002, 08:20 AM
I didn't use an induction kit. The reason they have a bad reputation is that most of them go in the engine compartment. I'm sure you're aware how bleedin' hot it gets in there.I've still got (most of) my standard airbox in the wheelarch, basically with the "snorkel" removed and a bell-mouth on the stub that's left, to help airflow into the box. I have a K&N filter in there too, although I really don't know whether that makes any difference.

Here's a picture of the modified part of my airbox (the other bit is unmodified).
http://www.saab9000.com/airbox/airbox.jpg

Also, an interesting side-by-side comparison of two snorkels - one from an Aero and one from a CD (no idea which engine).
http://www.saab9000.com/airbox/snorkels.jpg

I believe the snorkel serves two purposes: the restriction in it helps reduce induction noise, and it places the inlet towards the front of the car for a bit of "ram-air" effect. Now my inlet is pointing more towards the rear of the car, I hear some very strange noises, and the bypass valve is now easy to hear even with the windows closed.

Guest
25th September 2002, 03:26 AM
Thanks Bill, I'll have a go at that some time. My snorkel is the same as yours BTW.

AS far as heat goes, damn right. I've been mulling over how I might cool thinigs down under the bonnet without having to resort to grilles in the top of the bonnet.

My current thoughts are to take a look at opening up a gap above the bulkhead (below the windscreen) to allow air out. I reckon that could be quite effective because the air flowing at that point will already be travelling faster and thus creating a vacuum, helping to draw air through.

rich
25th September 2002, 08:27 AM
i read somewhere here a posting from one of our scandanavian comrades about how their 900 racers do the same thing - ie they let air out at the back under the windscreen - i think it was done by cutting the rubber sealing trim at the top back of the engine compartment??

BillJ
25th September 2002, 06:22 PM
Yes, I think I read that about the sealing trim.

Another suggestion (that I haven't tried myself) is to channel some of the heat to work for you. I've heard people say that wrapping the exhaust manifold (and turbo?) with an insulating wrap will both help keep the engine bay cooler and impart more energy to the turbine.

I can't remember the pros and cons, but can look it up. I know one of the drawbacks is that it makes the manifold a bit more likely to crack. As with all tuning mods, it depends on your priorities, really - power vs. reliability.

nickliv
8th October 2002, 10:26 AM
9995?

How many gearboxes do they throw in?

BillJ
8th October 2002, 11:33 AM
How many gearboxes do they throw in?
Only one, I assume, but it is a 9000 gearbox, so no worries there.

DaMoB
24th October 2002, 12:44 PM
Hi all

Just out of interest Re: air filters, I have a custom K&N cone filter which is just huge! Part no. RE0810 which I have mounted from the std pipe from the turbo with a small 6 inch sleave into the hole where the std air box was, this means that the majority of the filter is in the wheel arch sucking up air from outside the car (there is about 1/2 inch that is on the inside of the engine bay which i have taped over).
I made this conversion on my old 2L B202 9000 and it made a massive improvement to the charged air temp and spoolup.

Its now on my CSE FPT and it makes a lurvly noise(you can hear the induction whoosh and also a nice psshh noise when the dump valve releases) he he.

And obviously it shifts a lot more air than the std air box.

Just my 2 pence in the defense of induction kits :)

Damian

BillJ
24th October 2002, 05:17 PM
I've nothing against induction kits if they're installed sensibly, like it sounds as if yours is. Sounds like your intake is probably better-flowing than mine, and mine is supporting around 300hp.

DaMoB
25th October 2002, 06:11 AM
Hi BillJ,

Yeah the flow is v good (the RE0810 is not actually listed as a std car filter, it is designed for American off road racers :) and is rated to 400BHP :cheesy:
But im restricted so far by the downpipe and cylinder head(very interested in the JT 3" pipe, looking into them as we speak!)
Can't see any info on Maptun's site as far as suppling the JT on it's own, do you happen to know of any dealer that sells these?

Damo

murphwiz
25th October 2002, 08:19 AM
Elkparts are a Speedparts agent, speedparts do a lot of JT and BSR stuff, so may be worth a try?

BillJ
25th October 2002, 04:03 PM
As far as I know, Speedparts supply them to Maptun anyway. At least, I paid Maptun and my system was shipped directly from Speedparts. The only reason I went via this route was because Speedparts were reluctant to sell outside the Swedish market at the time, and they had no dealers outside Sweden. Today, Elkparts would be a much more convenient route.

However, having dealt with them, I really like Maptun's attitude and am a very happy Maptun customer, so I'll certainly buy from them again when I want to upgrade my ECU software to accommodate future modifications (larger injectors are on the cards, I think, as 300hp is straining the fuel system and causing some leaning out at the top end). They will reprogram my ECU for 10% of the cost of the original software (i.e. bu66er-all).

DaMoB
26th October 2002, 06:55 AM
Thanks Bill

Ive email'd julian at elk and hopfully will be able to get somthing sorted out.
Unfortunately there's no info on the site and speedparts is a little difficult to understand for non swedish speeking ppl :)

The thing is ive already got a SS system from cat back, but it's std diameter, do you think it would still be benificail to get the 3" downpipe & cat bypass from JT and convert it down to the std diameter before the first silencer?

+ I agree with you that the Maptun system sounds much better (for me) as it can be upgraded as you go.
I plan to make some major changes to my CSE ie hybrid turbo (or at least one out of an Aero) water inj and so on, so being able to re-map the fueling would be very handy.
The other option im looking at is the Zytech engine managemnet system, these are relativly cheap for what you get (a lot of skyline ppl are swithing to these) and they're totally adaptable - all you need is a laptop :)

Hmm too many ideas & not enough money :oops:

Ta

Damian

BillJ
26th October 2002, 02:05 PM
I'm told the biggest benefit is from the 3" downpipe and cat. After that, the exhaust gas has cooled down significantly and contracted, so doesn't need as big a pipe for the same backpressure. If I were doing it again, I might have done this on my Aero to keep noise down (not that it's terribly noisy most of the time, but I was told at Goodwood that at full throttle, it sounds much like the Abbott system).

aeropilot
14th November 2002, 08:08 AM
Chaps,
Doesn't this depend on the particular aerodynamics of the car's shape.. :-??
Openning up the vents below the windscreen might not always extract hot air but rather bring in cooler air.
For example, in the late sixties some of the US muscle car manufacturers actually put INTAKE scoops facing the windscreen in this area as it was a low pressure area and thus sucked cold air into an underbonnet intake above the carb......

Graham :roll:

kprm77
16th December 2002, 11:09 AM
I'd love a 280BHP plus Aero, but I certainly wouldn't pay 10k for one. THere was a monster Aero on Ebay a while back (350BHP??) but that didn't meet it's silly reserve price.

If you can find a buyer amongst Saab circles, all well and good, but in the wider market, upgrades would probably make the car less attractive than a standard car. I wouldn't use Abbott's prices as a decent guide anyway!

PS I'll give them 5k for it :D :D

JeremyFrost
17th December 2002, 12:22 PM
I believe the monster Aero was the same one as Abbott are selling. Well, mines got 290bhp, but I was still intending to buy Abott's on the basis of what it would cost me to get a LSD, water injection, AP racing brakes etc. I'm sure that people would be queing up if the car was selling for 5 grand. Sadly, my flat sale has just fallen through, so I have to make do with mine. Oh well... :lol: