New stainless steel throttle body delivery pipe.... [Archive] - SaabCentral Forums

: New stainless steel throttle body delivery pipe....


mike saunders
28th September 2004, 08:18 PM
Just saw this on Ebay...

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&?ViewItem&item=7925159600

More than enough pocket money left over for a night at the pub...

Birquah
28th September 2004, 10:07 PM
I might just have to pick one of those up!

Saabn
28th September 2004, 11:10 PM
Hmmm.... I gotta talk to them, chris, about one for my ng900. Who's gonna be the first to get one and let all of us know how it is :lol: ???

ricot83
28th September 2004, 11:34 PM
there is no flange for that sensor there so how is it gonna work? also if its 2 pipes isnt there a resriction where they meet since it looks like one goes into the other? just wonderin

nateg
29th September 2004, 12:28 AM
wow looks nice. I wonder if it will delete the transiton casting for the 9-3s. also ricot83 if you read the description it says they will weld the fitting for you car specific to your model. i've been waiting for them to release a product like this. As abbott wants too much money.

nate
99 93 vert

afam109
29th September 2004, 12:43 AM
what is the black one from the first pic?
is orginial intake pipe?

nateg
29th September 2004, 12:51 AM
yea that black pipe is stock on t7 9-3s and 9-5s.

nate

bkrell
29th September 2004, 08:09 AM
Looks really nice! I can't justify $175 right now after a summer of maintenence fun but def. something I would consider!

As for the sensor bung, they say that they will do it. It wouldn't be complicated for a shop to do anyway.

mike saunders
29th September 2004, 11:19 AM
there is no flange for that sensor there so how is it gonna work? also if its 2 pipes isnt there a resriction where they meet since it looks like one goes into the other? just wonderin

Chris says they'll put the sensor where you need it, so that shouldn't be an issue.

There's an unavoidable slight restriction where the throttle body meets the 90 degree elbow, but that's probably more than conpensated by the increased flow. If you felt really industrious, you could probably grind it down with a dremel tool, but you'd need to take the whole TB off the car. And remember -- the T7 has an "air diffuser" inside the manifold under the TB that already adds a slight restriction.

My guess is any incremental gains from grinding have to weighed against the headache of removing the TB. If you have the TB off the car already, the go for it....

ricot83
29th September 2004, 03:02 PM
thats awesome i cant wait for it to go mainstream they say costs will b boutthe same as nick's

abdukted1456
29th September 2004, 03:39 PM
for this mod and the t7 larger turbo inlet pipe is there any risk of leaning out if I am running a Stage 1 program? Would I need to have 3" exhaust as well, and possibly get a Stage 3 or custom program for these mods? :-??

also, what is the performance gain?

2ksaabturbo
29th September 2004, 03:49 PM
I'd like to see some dyno #'s on stock ECU, and on Modded ECU.

mike saunders
29th September 2004, 06:19 PM
for this mod and the t7 larger turbo inlet pipe is there any risk of leaning out if I am running a Stage 1 program? Would I need to have 3" exhaust as well, and possibly get a Stage 3 or custom program for these mods? :-??

also, what is the performance gain?

You should probably have a 3" exhaust anyway, or at least a 3" DP....I think the ECU would compensate for the increased air flow by upping the fuel injection rate. There's a range of values -- if air mass equals n+1, increase fuel injector voltage by x volts -- but I'm not sure what the stage 1 range is. It's not a ram-air effect, so it's probably all covered with the stock ECU...

bkrell
29th September 2004, 08:27 PM
I would think the only trade off on a stock car would be a tad of low end for a bit more high. I'd doubt it'd harm a stage 1, even.

Adrian W
29th September 2004, 10:48 PM
The pipe will not cause any more "flow". T7 boosts to a certain air-mass/combustion value, and thus exhausts, intakes, camshafts, ported heads, etc do not increase the "flow" ... rather they allow the same air-mass/combustion to be attained at a lower boost pressure.

That being said, I'm glad someone finally used stainless instead of aluminum!

Aluminum bends are always done in what is called an "O" condition, sometimes erroneously reffered to as "T0". This is a softened condition of aluminum, and is required to do aluminum mandrel bends.The trouble is that in "O" condition aluminum is weak, and furthermore should not be polished. Bends can then be heat treated to a "T6" temper, but that can be costly.

Also, stainless conducts less than 1/10th the heat of most aluminum alloys, and therefor helps insulate the pipe from underhood heat. =)

The only downside to stainless is weight, which isn't exactly a huge issue as it is only marginally heavier than aluminum once wrought.

Looks good, hopefully it fits well too!

Adrian~

mike saunders
30th September 2004, 12:31 AM
The pipe will not cause any more "flow". T7 boosts to a certain air-mass/combustion value, and thus exhausts, intakes, camshafts, ported heads, etc do not increase the "flow" ... rather they allow the same air-mass/combustion to be attained at a lower boost pressure.



You're forgetting about time... :D

A bigger pipe allows a specific mass of air to move from point A to B more quickly. Try releasing the air in a balloon through a coffee stirrer, then try it through a straw. Same mass of air moves more quickly.

This is more of a necessity with a n/a car, but it still gives us compressor-heads some benefit!


http://www.simcar.com/literature/sae940759/convflow.htm

Q-SAAB
30th September 2004, 12:40 AM
For those of you interested in this pipe, there's a group buy being put together on TSL that will save a few bucks off even this low price.

Adrian W
30th September 2004, 02:39 AM
You're forgetting about time... :D

A bigger pipe allows a specific mass of air to move from point A to B more quickly. Try releasing the air in a balloon through a coffee stirrer, then try it through a straw. Same mass of air moves more quickly.

This is more of a necessity with a n/a car, but it still gives us compressor-heads some benefit!

I'm not forgetting about time. :)

T7 is unique. Assuming there is no knock, it will boost to the same air-mass/combustion value regardless of ambient pressure, cyllinder head flow, camshafts, or turbocharger.

Here's how T7 measures airflow and controls boost:

MAF sensor gives it a milligrams/second value for airflow, this value is then divided by revolutions per second of engine speed. The resulting units are milligrams/revolution. Since there are two combustion cycles per revolution, it is then divided by two.

That value is the basis for T7's boost control and fuel delivery system. That means that T7 will not be fooled into putting more air into the engine than it wants to, and because air is the limiting factor for power, it cannot be fooled into making more power than it wants to.

MAP sensor'd cars, on the other hand, do not "see" flow. They have a pre-programmed map of the engine's Volumetric Efficiency. In other words, at a given manifold pressure and temperature, Trionic 5 merely "assumes" a given amount of that air will enter the engine at a given RPM.

With a MAP sensor'd car, when you put an exhaust, camshafts, ported head, or intake on you change the Volumetric Efficiency ... so the car thinks there is less air going in than there really is ... this makes it run leaner, and makes it run more milligrams of air per combustion, both of which make more power.

Does it make sense now? The reason other Mass AirFlow sensor cars can make more power with mods is because, like on the C900's, while the fuelling is MAF sensor based, the manifold pressure is used for determining the maximum boost pressure. So you can increase airflow with flow mods.

With T7, if you put an exhaust, intake, cams, and a ported cyllinder head on it, it will just run less boost. ;)

Adrian~

Dead Centre
30th September 2004, 03:50 AM
mike saunders
Chris says they'll put the sensor where you need it, so that shouldn't be an issue.....

Do you think they will put the dumpvalve outlet where you want it??

If its UK spec I would have the DV sat just of the top curve. Over here the vacume unit will not be in te way.

The DV should really be placed as close to te throttle plate as is possible.

?????

Dead

bkrell
30th September 2004, 07:43 AM
So, what you're saying then, Adrian, is that without changing the ECU parameters, you'll just run less boost?

Even if that's the case, wouldn't you still, at least get some (though not in they way hoped) benefit by increased turbo efficiency and heat reduction?

I don't have a stake in this either way. I have a 97. But it would be nice to know! Perhaps that previous poster spoke well when they asked for dyno numbers. :-?

Q-SAAB
30th September 2004, 08:44 AM
Adrian,

All that having been said (and I'm trying to understand, I really am) what would the effect of increased air-flow be on a T5 engine?

I have a cone filter, cat-back 2.5", and have removed the turbo silencer - does that mean my car is running lean? If so, how do I compensate for it, or is that not a problem as long as my O2 sensor measures the lean condition and the T5 adjusts accordingly?

SPATL
30th September 2004, 09:15 AM
Peak boost pressure in a t-7 is only part of the equation for more power. Torque is also considered and folks who have added a 3" turbo back exhaust have seen significant gains in torque numbers and I would bet hp as well. Bkrell makes an important point on turbo efficiency. If it were ture that the t-7 would limit all things there would be no gain in any modifications done on the t-7 prior to a ecu re-mapping. This is not true and I am sure that many t-7 owners can vouch for that as well. an SMBC can liven up the lower gears on a t-7 which can create bigger torque which equates to more power while boost pressure does not get increased.Initial dyno numbers on a bigger delivery pipe on a t-7 car also has produced upwards of a 10hp increase as well. ERP has even seen bigger HP and bigger torque on his car running less boost than previous as well in some of his dyno runs. So while your theory has some valid points, it is not the whole equation.

abdukted1456
30th September 2004, 09:32 AM
I would like to see dyno numbers, before and after data, and also testing with uprated ECU's before I would jump in and do these larger pipe mods... I prefer hard data to speculation and theory. :wink:

SPATL
30th September 2004, 09:43 AM
So here is what Abbott says about their pipe(which is the same diameter pipe.)
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++
High Flow Turbo Delivery Pipe - 12bhp

Replaces restrictive standard pipe to complement ECU power upgrades.
Increased response on acceleration.
All alloy construction
Essential on all aero models and for power outputs above 200bhp
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++

The numbers I reported are not speculation but actual increases noted. While I don't have their dyno sheet, I believe the source. Hopefully there will be published results soon on a t-5 amd t-7 so folks can make informed decisions about products. And I agree that parts having bigger price tags should have proven testing increases noted.

abdukted1456
30th September 2004, 09:52 AM
in regards to speculation, I did not mean you, SPATL, i was refering to some of the other "textbook theory" that has been floating around and debated ad nauseam... without hard data. :roll: :roll:

Q-SAAB
30th September 2004, 11:52 AM
For those interested in this pipe, the group buy URL is http://www.saablink.net/TSL/saabforum/viewtopic.php?t=661&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0

abdukted1456
30th September 2004, 12:52 PM
Isn't this two pipes welded together? I thought it was supposed to be one pipe? Am I misunderstanding something? it looks like where they meet there is a big restriction...

mike saunders
30th September 2004, 01:00 PM
Hi Adrian,

I think we're all somewhat on the same page regarding the value of air to T7, but I think the sticking point is the value of air availability. Assuming no change to the ECU, then the T7 should chug along blithely ignoring the increased available air. The T5, however, would respond more readily for all the reasons you stated earlier. (This is why I'm keeping the T5 management with my engine swap to a 2001 B205 8) )

But nearly all of these mods assume a corresponding ECU change, and the potential of the ECU re-mapping can be optimized with the improved breathing fore and aft.

So here is what Abbott says about their pipe(which is the same diameter pipe.)
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++
High Flow Turbo Delivery Pipe - 12bhp

Replaces restrictive standard pipe to complement ECU power upgrades.
Increased response on acceleration.
All alloy construction
Essential on all aero models and for power outputs above 200bhp
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++


The gains without ECU changes are only incremental...but they exist, and users have seen small but measureable -- and, most importantly, repeatable -- increases with just intake and DP mods.

For whatever reason -- MAF measurement range error, safety margins in the ECU, Trollhattan poltergeists :wink: -- the stock T7 will respond to intake improvements, although, just as you said, no where near as much as a T5...

As Cooter on "Dukes of Hazard" would have said, "T'ain't much, but it's sumpthin'!"

mike saunders
30th September 2004, 01:07 PM
Isn't this two pipes welded together? I thought it was supposed to be one pipe? Am I misunderstanding something? it looks like where they meet there is a big restriction...

I'd wait to see the inside of the pipe first, because that's where any weld globs would end up. I had to Dremel out a "braze turd" inside my stainless DP last week. :x

Even a couple of globs wouldn't hurt the intake too much, considering the increased diameter...

Adrian W
30th September 2004, 03:23 PM
A T7 car will have slightly less pumping loss if the same airflow is achieved at a lower boost. However the available change in pumping loss is negligable. With a long series of modifications, you might see two or three horses.

If there are gains, it's probably an increase in "mechanical octane". Lower boost pressures, even at the same airflow, generally result in cooler combustion. That in itself doesn't make any power at all, but it can allow more ignition advance if you, like me, live someplace without high octane fuels available.

The point I'm trying to make is that these claims of 12 bhp for this mod, or 10% increase for that, just do not work with Trionic 7.

Even if you had a MapTun stage 3, as an example, if you do more mods than is required for Stage 3, you will only see more hp if you didn't have enough octane to be running stage 3 in the first place. The T7 ECU is based entirely on an air-mass/combustion method of boost control and fuel mapping. Unles T7 is fundamentally altered, I can't see mods making significant horsepower on T7. The mods may lower EGT, increase knock resistance, and even reduce boost lag ... but they won't make horsepower.

T5 on the other hand, will indeed run leaner with certain mods. It gets more complicated still ... let's just say that T5 can adapt to certain mods. Mods like exhausts, which cause a certain percentage change in VE more or less evenly across the powerband are ok. Mods like camshafts, which only cause the change in the high RPM band, are NOT ok.

If you mod T5 such that there is more than 25% change in VE, you'll run very lean, and get a Check Engine Light relating to Multiplicative Adaption.

Adrian~

abdukted1456
30th September 2004, 05:04 PM
i think I personally will wait to see some hard data and the inside of the pipe or better pics in general and some specs before making a choice to buy, even if it is priced to be a steal...I only want the best for my baby. If indeed it is two welded together, it should not be advetised/sold as "one single pipe".. Abbott's truly looks like one single smoooooth pipe although hard to justify the high price tag even with that fact. Maybe there will be a competitor releasing a similar product in the near future? I want to be sure there are "no turds in my pipe". :lol: :lol: (too funny, Mike!)

2ksaabturbo
30th September 2004, 05:46 PM
I still would like to see a Dyno on a stock/chipped T7.

It def. would be interesting to see the difs and remove any doubt amongst potential buyers, as well as clear up the age old argument of the T7.

I still plan on purchasing the turbo inlet pipe and throttle body delivery pipe from MP, as well as any other goodies that they plan on bringing out.

Adrian W
30th September 2004, 06:03 PM
This is just an un-necessary mod. There is nothing wrong with it, but you will not make any horsepower with it. You might even lose some horsepower because the steel piping conducts more heat than the plastic piping used stock on T7.

More heat = more detonation sensitivity = less power

On T5, you might at least get less heat, since the stock pipe is aluminum.

I assure you, both on T5 and on T7, that intake pipe flows more than any near-stock engine could ever need.

The only way you'd see much benefit from a larger TB pipe is if you have a 2.3L engine with ported head, upgraded cams, exhaust, a larger turbo, and a higher redline.

Otherwise remember, turbocharged engines, Saabs especially, make horsepower from pressure, and not from flow. Only once heavily modified do they need more flow on the pressurized side of the turbo.

The non-pressurized side is another story ... but even then, there are usually better things to spend your money on.

Adrian~

abdukted1456
5th October 2004, 12:13 PM
that's really nice and everything, but until someone does a baseline dyno run and then a run with the pipe, I would not bet either way, that it works or it doesn't. The proof is in the pudding. :nono;

mike saunders
5th October 2004, 12:42 PM
Abdukted, that's a great idea.

Unfortunately, no baseline run for me, because I have a T5....

How about you, Adrian?

One run without, then a quick change over to the new pipe then one run with?

Let's quantify this.... 8)

ricot83
5th October 2004, 12:42 PM
i will eventually get this i am sure... and i will let u all know how it goes and how it compares to my current power

SPATL
5th October 2004, 01:34 PM
The problem with the results will be the flow limitations of the IC as well. The viggen IC is a mere 110cfms which has its own limitations, I would think this will do a lot for cars down the line with bigger IC's or ones with better flow and chipped. I'll be sure to let you know what it does for a t-5 soon.

Adrian W
5th October 2004, 04:58 PM
Abdukted, that's a great idea.

Unfortunately, no baseline run for me, because I have a T5....

How about you, Adrian?

One run without, then a quick change over to the new pipe then one run with?

Let's quantify this.... 8)

But then I'd have to buy it, and pay $100 for two dyno runs just to prove to you guys what I know already anyway. :nono; :lol:

Adrian~

2ksaabturbo
5th October 2004, 05:03 PM
The company that produces them should provide dyno graphs to give an idea of what a customer can expect.

SaabScott
5th October 2004, 06:40 PM
So here is what Abbott says about their pipe(which is the same diameter pipe.)
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++
High Flow Turbo Delivery Pipe - 12bhp

Replaces restrictive standard pipe to complement ECU power upgrades.
Increased response on acceleration.
All alloy construction
Essential on all aero models and for power outputs above 200bhp
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++

The numbers I reported are not speculation but actual increases noted. While I don't have their dyno sheet, I believe the source. Hopefully there will be published results soon on a t-5 amd t-7 so folks can make informed decisions about products. And I agree that parts having bigger price tags should have proven testing increases noted.

OK ... so what happens (in theory only) if you don't have an ECU upgrade?
What if you only have the 3" intake and perhaps an MBC+A?

Would you still see an increase in performance?

bkrell
5th October 2004, 07:36 PM
You should still see an increase. I suppose there's a potential for leaning, but it shouldn't be a big deal.

SPATL
6th October 2004, 09:35 AM
OK ... so what happens (in theory only) if you don't have an ECU upgrade?
What if you only have the 3" intake and perhaps an MBC+A?

Would you still see an increase in performance?

At that point I would venture to say that there are other modifictions that one should spend their money on prior to this part.

Take for instance an exhaust. Adding a sport exhaust is a good thing but the benefits are marginal compared to adding a larger DP and a high flow cat. If the flow is restricted at the DP and CAT, the benefit of the sport exhaust is only as good as the restrictive parts in between.

With that said, I still bet the sport exhaust opens things up a bit. I will be going to the dyno for a baseline of the sport exhaust to see what difference it has made to my numbers prior to the delivery pipe. But this is a later stage performance part. The stock IC on the NG900 and base 9-3 is a poor performer. The upgrade to the viggen IC is an upgrade, but still flows at a rate of approx. 110 cfms. Good but not great. So one with a stock IC in the NG900 would probably not benefit from this part near as much as one with a higher flowing IC and other performance mods.

viggen705
9th October 2004, 06:12 PM
:cheesy: I live very close to chris with mpperformance and he is doing some great things with the delivery pipe and even a bored out mass air flow sensor. I will be installing both of these next week on my viggen. I will post and let everryone know what kind of increse you will get with these mods.

Adrian W
9th October 2004, 07:43 PM
:cheesy: I live very close to chris with mpperformance and he is doing some great things with the delivery pipe and even a bored out mass air flow sensor. I will be installing both of these next week on my viggen. I will post and let everryone know what kind of increse you will get with these mods.

You're doing a before and after dyno run on the same day?

viggen705
10th October 2004, 02:04 PM
ya i am going to try to next weekend, but it all depends on if the products are ready to go by next week but i will be doing a before and after dyno to see the gain i will let you know soon.

abdukted1456
17th November 2004, 02:45 PM
how about those before and after dynos?

2ksaabturbo
17th November 2004, 04:08 PM
I'm starting to understand that the delivery pipe should be the last piece of the intake system that should be upgraded.

For those of us like me who plan on sticking with the stock Viggen Intercooler for a while it doesn't make alot of sense yet.

It sounds like the turbo inlet pipe would be the next logical step to decrease spool up time.


But all speculation aside, I'll believe the dyno #'s!

ricot83
17th November 2004, 04:41 PM
ya pete i decided it makes no sense what so ever to get this pipe with a viggen intercooler... i am almost at the limit of this intercooler....

bkrell
17th November 2004, 09:13 PM
Of course, when you get to the limit, you can pass it off to your friendly moderator! :wink: :cheesy:

9-3 Mike
17th November 2004, 11:06 PM
Here's my intake pipe!
(click pictures for bigger)
http://www.saabspeed.org/garage/userimages/35_t.jpg (http://www.saabspeed.org/garage/userimages/35.jpg)
and the 3" attachmentpipe to the throttle body house.
http://www.saabspeed.org/garage/userimages/34_t.jpg (http://www.saabspeed.org/garage/userimages/34.jpg)

I drive a 9-3 Trionic 5. I did some other major changes at the same time as I mounted the new pipe. Such as my intercooler. http://www.saabspeed.org/garage/userimages/120_t.jpg (http://www.saabspeed.org/garage/userimages/120.jpg)
Therefore I can not give you an before/after description of the car more than I noticed after the changes that the car responded better @ low revs and performed better above 5000rpm/min. :roll: