GM is going to kill saab

[saab900turboguy]

As far as im concerned GM is making the Saab to american. Im a marine so im very patriotic, but saab is one thing that should not be american. I buy saabs because of there long lasting durability that they have had. Now that there becoming more american im afraid that longevity is going to crash just like the saab line. IF they want to bring back a money maker, bring back the SPG and improve that only keep it sweedish ! :cheesy:

[benji9k]

See, the problem is that Saab doesn't have the money to improve any Saab models or create new models. Thus the 9-2 and 9-7 to provide quick cash and some recognition to the brand. To me, it's only a temporary thing, crutches to help Saab get a little better. Despite some point of views, Saab isn't doing that well on it's own. Perhaps, after a few years, when Saab is on it's own feet, they'll be producing models with the level of Saabness turned up high enough to please us all. Nothing wrong with a little diversity. Every brand has it's red-headed stepchild models, and soon they will be forgotten into the history of a reborn brand... We just gotta wait a few more years for the 'real Saab' cars to come out. We know they have the concepts, just gotta wait a little longer.

[valbowski1980]

GM has little regard for Saab's traditions, it just wants to sell cars.

[MrSaab95]

GM has little regard for Saab's traditions, it just wants to sell cars.

haha - so true

[Buddhabman]

GM has little regard for Saab's traditions, it just wants to sell cars.


:roll: All the crying and whinning by old Saab traditionalists is just going backwards. If you love the brand and want the brand to succeed buy a new one. I love a Sonnett and a 900, but face it the new cars are better, whether you want to admit it or not. Despite GM platform sharing which is the future period, the cars are nice.

The 9-3 has had a few problems but overall it has been solid. A new stock 9-3 with it's traditional sedan styling is still one of the best looking sport sedans out there. A modded 9-3 Aero with 18's and lowered is incredible looking, way better than a V70 R, G35, TL, C320 AMG, S4.

The 9-5 is still solid but not spectacular. AWD will improve it's marketability by allowing for greeater HP.

What do you say about the 9-7. Ok, old platform with lots of problems. That platform is hampered more by production issues than by the design itself. They should have that ironed out by now, agreed. If Saab can get a good production line, tweak the suspension and interior to the levels they have proposed then they will have a nice vehicle. They were able to improve the Subaru 9-2, maybe they can do the same to the Trailblazer. I like the Pics I have seen this far.

Have some faith in the brand. GM needs Saab to be succesful, they can't afford to roll out another Euro brand like Vauxhall over here.

[Lodro]

The 9-5 is still solid but not spectacular. AWD will improve it's marketability by allowing for greeater HP.

When?


What do you say about the 9-7. Ok, old platform with lots of problems. That platform is hampered more by production issues than by the design itself.

Its the design that _is_ the the problem. Solid rear axle. Weighs over 5,000 lbs. High cg. Poor crash results. I could go on.. :wink:

[Lodro]

[dup]

[CleveSaab]

Saab was doing a fine job killing themselves before GM came along....

[CosmicSaab]

Saab was doing a fine job killing themselves before GM came along....

Yes they very much were. And now they are starting to come off of life support, and it is because of GM.

And the GMT360 platform is not old, in fact, it is very modern, in uses a live rear axel because that is generally what trucks use and they didn't have the time to develop an independent rear suspension, which, by the way, the platform is able to handle.

[valbowski1980]

GM has little regard for Saab's traditions, it just wants to sell cars.


:roll: All the crying and whinning by old Saab traditionalists is just going backwards. If you love the brand and want the brand to succeed buy a new one.


Can't afford a new one, If I could I'd take my money elsewhere (BMW). As far as where my loyalties lie, my previous car was an Accord and after my subpar Saab experience my next car will be an Accord as well.


Despite GM platform sharing which is the future period, the cars are nice.

Not as nice as what the competitors build.

A modded 9-3 Aero with 18's and lowered is incredible looking, way better than a V70 R, G35, TL, C320 AMG, S4.
The 9-3SS isn't that impressive looking at all and tops only the G35, then again this is only my opinion.


What do you say about the 9-7.

I say that SUVs suck and this one is no exception.

And as for Vauxhall, Europe can keep it.

[valbowski1980]

Saab was doing a fine job killing themselves before GM came along....

Yes they very much were. And now they are starting to come off of life support, and it is because of GM.

And the GMT360 platform is not old, in fact, it is very modern, in uses a live rear axel because that is generally what trucks use and they didn't have the time to develop an independent rear suspension, which, by the way, the platform is able to handle.

If the only way a car company car rebound after not making any money since 1994 is by building replicas of other cars I'm starting to think that Saab just isn't meant to be.

[Buddhabman]

[/quote]

Its the design that _is_ the the problem. Solid rear axle. Weighs over 5,000 lbs. High cg. Poor crash results. I could go on.. :wink:[/quote]

Yeah I know. But I take it from the viewpoint of the Buick Rainier insteads of the GMC Envoy / Chevy Trailblazer. If they start from that point then this will be halfway decent. I beleive this is the model the 9-7 is based on. The Ranier with the V8 has been praised.

From Edmunds.com - "Buick and Oldsmobile have always been upscale brands, but with Cadillac moving further up the pricing ladder and Olds on its way out, there's more room for Buick to offer premium products to a discerning clientele. General Motors wants Buick to become synonymous with the kind of sophisticated luxury vehicles that currently wear the Lexus badge. In fact, Buick is creating what it calls "quiet tuning" in order to help the Rainier accomplish this goal. Extra sound-deadening material has been added under the hood and around the doors as part of the overall emphasis on a quiet ride. The styling is also a little more sophisticated as well -- both the Oldsmobile Bravada and Rainier have a sleek, carlike appearance, but with the Olds going away soon, the Rainier will have to carry the classy torch alone. Buick has also given the Rainier a more aerodynamic profile to keep wind buffeting to a minimum. The Rainier is the second all-new Buick in the past few years. And it certainly says something that both new entries from Buick are SUVs. Although the Rainier is based on GM's existing midsize SUV platform, it does differ in several ways. The Rainier is the only member of the midsize GM SUV family to get an optional V8 in the short-wheelbase, five-seat configuration. With the Envoy and TrailBlazer, you have to go to the longer and heavier seven-seat versions to upgrade from the 4.2-liter inline six. And while the Rainier shares its sibling's interior setup, it does offer upscale gauges that are unique to Buick. All-wheel drive is optional and the system seamlessly transfers power between all four wheels depending on traction conditions. The rear differential is fully locking and all this technology requires no input from the driver. Without the optional all-wheel drive, the Rainier is, like its siblings, a rear-wheel-drive vehicle. Thankfully the Rainier is more than just a rebadged Envoy. Buick has delivered a great-looking SUV that can offer all the off-road prowess of the TrailBlazer with the luxury of a premium sedan. Unless Cadillac comes out with its own version of the GM midsize SUV, which is unlikely, the Rainer with a V8 is the closest thing to a junior-size Escalade."

[Buddhabman]

A modded 9-3 Aero with 18's and lowered is incredible looking, way better than a V70 R, G35, TL, C320 AMG, S4.
The 9-3SS isn't that impressive looking at all and tops only the G35, then again this is only my opinion.

I was a tad too exhuberant in my last rant. :lol: I like the M3, S4 and C32 AMG. If I had that cash to spend then, I would have one. But for the price of an 9-3 Aero and a few mods under 39K total you have a safe car that can outrun a TL, G35, 330 w/ZHP and maybe an Accord. Well maybenot but sure looks better. :lol:

[Lodro]

From Edmunds.com - "Buick and Oldsmobile have always been upscale brands...the Rainer with a V8 is the closest thing to a junior-size Escalade."

Not that I'd want one of those. :cheesy:

Still, I promise to withhold _final_ judgement until I actually see and drive one.

[Lodro]

But then there is this...

"Frontal impacts resulted in a three-star rating for the driver and front passenger. The IIHS rated the TrailBlazer as "Marginal" (the second lowest score on a four-point scale) after conducting its frontal offset crash test."

I wonder, is Saab really going to sink so low as to sell a truck that gets Marginal safety ratings? How the hell are they going to spin this?!?

[valbowski1980]

A modded 9-3 Aero with 18's and lowered is incredible looking, way better than a V70 R, G35, TL, C320 AMG, S4.
The 9-3SS isn't that impressive looking at all and tops only the G35, then again this is only my opinion.

I was a tad too exhuberant in my last rant. :lol: I like the M3, S4 and C32 AMG. If I had that cash to spend then, I would have one. But for the price of an 9-3 Aero and a few mods under 39K total you have a safe car that can outrun a TL, G35, 330 w/ZHP and maybe an Accord. Well maybenot but sure looks better. :lol:

Safety used to be Saab's bag but now most of the other makers have caught up. The ideal hotrod IMO is the new Legacy Turbo, far less than 39 grand and with some mods it will own an Aero.

[Lodro]

Safety used to be Saab's bag but now most of the other makers have caught up. The ideal hotrod IMO is the new Legacy Turbo, far less than 39 grand and with some mods it will own an Aero.

We drove one, and just weren't that impressed. It could get out of its own way, and was much better looking inside, but it is still a Subaru for better or worse. Something about it left me cold.

[CleveSaab]

If the only way a car company car rebound after not making any money since 1994

Try 90'. If they were making money in 93', they'd still be around.
Saab NEVER made tons of money. And they caved when GM came calling. They could have EASILY said "we reserve the right to deisgn our own cars....". But they didn't. Just rolled over for the cash.

[Lodro]

They could have EASILY said "we reserve the right to deisgn our own cars....". But they didn't. Just rolled over for the cash.

Aquisitions don't really work that way. If you're getting bought the only thing that matters (unless you are Ben & Jerry's) is the money that the current shareholders get.

[Saba]

I think GM would respect and foster an offshore subsidiary's independence and culture once they can demonstrate they can sustain it. Holden is a similar sized GM company to Saab, exporting about a quarter of its production. Holden is one of GM's most profitable manufacturers producing a range of its own designs and imported variants (mainly Opel and Vauxhall). Basically its get free reign to do as it wants, but still maintains its GM links. I think GM has a similar role in mind for Saab (at least as a corporate model).

BTW Holden's chief designer has just been appointed Executive Director of Design for all of GM's north American subsidaries.

[Saba]

I think GM would respect and foster an offshore subsidiary's independence and culture once they can demonstrate they can sustain it. Holden is a similar sized GM company to Saab, exporting about a quarter of its production. Holden is one of GM's most profitable manufacturers producing a range of its own designs and imported variants (mainly Opel and Vauxhall). Basically its get free reign to do as it wants, but still maintains its GM links. I think GM has a similar role in mind for Saab (at least as a corporate model).

BTW Holden's chief designer has just been appointed Executive Director of Design for all of GM's north American subsidaries.

[Saba]

I think GM would respect and foster an offshore subsidiary's independence and culture once they can demonstrate they can sustain it. Holden is a similar sized GM company to Saab, exporting about a quarter of its production. Holden is one of GM's most profitable manufacturers producing a range of its own designs and imported variants (mainly Opel and Vauxhall). Basically its get free reign to do as it wants, but still maintains its GM links. I think GM has a similar role in mind for Saab (at least as a corporate model).

BTW Holden's chief designer has just been appointed Executive Director of Design for all of GM's north American subsidaries.

[ragtopcav]

BTW Holden's chief designer has just been appointed Executive Director of Design for all of GM's north American subsidaries.D'you think he'll get the GM corporate types to wear Tilley hats with corks dangling from the rim and singing Waltzing Matilda before Christmas? :cheesy: :lol: :wink:



I'll go and get my hardhat now.

[ragtopcav]

BTW Holden's chief designer has just been appointed Executive Director of Design for all of GM's north American subsidaries.D'you think he'll get the GM corporate types to wear Tilley hats with corks dangling from the rim and singing Waltzing Matilda before Christmas? :cheesy: :lol: :wink:



I'll go and get my hardhat now.

[saab_cruz]

Im from cali, and I'll tell you, any american car, is a bad car as far as materials quality is concerned. Reliability is another.

When saab sold to GM, that was a so so choice. I mean its good that saab got some extra cash to make more cars, but then again, whens the last time you heard a reliable, dependable GM...? eh, didn't think so.

About a month ago I was looking into buying a new saab. I sat inside the 9-2x and let me tell you, its the cheapest most unrefined automobile I have ever sat in. Even the ignition is not in the traditional spot (center console please?)! Plastic parts everywhere you look.

The seats are cheaply made with this special low quality stuff probably from joann fabrics, which have about one inch of seat coushin. (are they trying to make the car like some civic from the fast and the furious????)

Also if you take a look at a saturn ion, and then take a 9-3 and look at them together, they look like virtually the same car. Ashame.

Don't get me wrong, Saab is an awsome automobile (I own an 87 900 myself), its just that when other car companies take over, the tradition fades.


I also think that the new saabs are not better cars at all in the slightest way imaginable. Saab had a good thing going with the 900, and 9000 when they were actually swedish!

the new 9-5's and 9-3's are cheap plastic dynky toys from a gumball machine. They're just saturns in tuxedos right now.

[valbowski1980]

but then again, whens the last time you heard a reliable, dependable GM...? eh, didn't think so.


You will almost never hear me defend anything GM but here I must give the devil his due. The Impala is rated very well when it comes to reliability and so are many Buicks.

[saab_cruz]

well ok fine, in a batch of rotten apples theres gotta be a good one.

Wait a second... buicks? they may be reliable but the kudos stop there.

[Garuda]

I think GM would respect and foster an offshore subsidiary's independence and culture once they can demonstrate they can sustain it. Holden is a similar sized GM company to Saab, exporting about a quarter of its production. Holden is one of GM's most profitable manufacturers producing a range of its own designs and imported variants (mainly Opel and Vauxhall). Basically its get free reign to do as it wants, but still maintains its GM links. I think GM has a similar role in mind for Saab (at least as a corporate model).

BTW Holden's chief designer has just been appointed Executive Director of Design for all of GM's north American subsidaries.

Holden does well for themselves with less resources than Saab. It makes a killing in Australia with models built off the old Opel Omega platform (the basis for the craptacular Cadillac Catera that was exported to the U.S. for a while). Holden keeps Ford and Toyota at bay in Australia. GM has rewarded their good performance. Holden is largely doing the engineering work for the Zeta platform, which will form the basis of the next generation Impala and several Buicks here in the U.S. at the end of the decade.

With Saab, however, it's time to face the facts. Saab, as a division, delivers poor performance. In Sweden, on any given day, 20% of the workforce calls in sick because they are too lazy to work (Link: http://www.stuff.co.nz/stuff/0,2106,3037446a12,00.html). That's what GM has to contend with. Saab would not have been around if GM hadn't bankrolled them with hundreds of millions throughout the decade.

So of course GM has to reign in Saab. It has to put Saab executives on the tight leash, and extract greater performance out of lazy Saab engineers and factory workers.

That's life. Better than getting your factory closed and losing your job like Ford did to Jaguar today. :cheesy:

[Garuda]

Im from cali, and I'll tell you, any american car, is a bad car as far as materials quality is concerned. Reliability is another.

When saab sold to GM, that was a so so choice. I mean its good that saab got some extra cash to make more cars, but then again, whens the last time you heard a reliable, dependable GM...? eh, didn't think so.

About a month ago I was looking into buying a new saab. I sat inside the 9-2x and let me tell you, its the cheapest most unrefined automobile I have ever sat in. Even the ignition is not in the traditional spot (center console please?)! Plastic parts everywhere you look.

The seats are cheaply made with this special low quality stuff probably from joann fabrics, which have about one inch of seat coushin. (are they trying to make the car like some civic from the fast and the furious????)

Also if you take a look at a saturn ion, and then take a 9-3 and look at them together, they look like virtually the same car. Ashame.

Don't get me wrong, Saab is an awsome automobile (I own an 87 900 myself), its just that when other car companies take over, the tradition fades.


I also think that the new saabs are not better cars at all in the slightest way imaginable. Saab had a good thing going with the 900, and 9000 when they were actually swedish!

the new 9-5's and 9-3's are cheap plastic dynky toys from a gumball machine. They're just saturns in tuxedos right now.

You, Sir, are a liar and an idiot.

[Garuda]

GM's reliability has improved a lot in the last 5 years. Just look in a Consumer Reports to see for yourself. Or if you prefer more reputable industrial studies:

GM does respectably well on Initial Quality Surveys by JD Power:

http://www.jdpa.com/studies_jdpower/pressrelease.asp?StudyID=854&CatID=1

http://www.jdpa.com/presspass/pr/images/2004037cfull.gif

In IQS, Saab is one of GM's worst performing brands.

GM's got some of the best plants in the business:

http://www.jdpa.com/presspass/pr/images/2004037efull.gif

GM does well in the reliability study as well, beating BMW:

http://www.jdpa.com/studies_jdpower/pressrelease.asp?StudyID=860&CatID=1

http://www.jdpa.com/presspass/pr/images/2004055afull.gif

Saab is fortunatly above average in the reliability study:

http://www.jdpa.com/presspass/pr/images/2004055bfull.gif

GM is determined to catch Toyota/Honda, and they've cut the reliability gap a lot. They've leapfrogged the European competition, and also their domestic competitors. GM's main problem is that their products suffer from a perceived low reliability, because of past problems. But the new cars are getting out there, and they are reliable, so that impression is quickly changing.

[valbowski1980]

the new 9-5's and 9-3's are cheap plastic dynky toys from a gumball machine. They're just saturns in tuxedos right now.

I think thats going a bit too far. The newer Saabs many not be as interesting and cool as the older ones but they are not Saturns, not even close.

[saab_cruz]

ok ok... i was a bit pumped when i said that. the 9-5 is ... nice. but the 9-2x... no.

hey listen garuda, its an opinion. ...

why.. you think the 9-2x is an awesome car?[/b]

and wait.... what am i lying about?

[CleveSaab]

The new SS is a toy? Spoken by someone who has obviously never driven one... :roll:

[saab_cruz]

ok im outta this... lol

c'mon nobody thinks that saab should be their own company here?

[valbowski1980]

ok im outta this... lol

c'mon nobody thinks that saab should be their own company here?

Sadly it wouldn't be possible. Saabs were well engineered cars but they just didn't sell very well so it was either this or shutting down shop. Such as life, it was only a matter of time until this happened. I would have rather it been by Toyota but hey, what can you do?

Personaly, I have no interest in GM's Saabs so my next car won't be one. This is most likely the last Saab I ever own.

[Buddhabman]

Have faith Santa_Cruz. Saab is a good fit for GM, and overall the cars will be better for GM's involvement. The Saab car has improved since GM bought the brand.

The reliability of the 9-5 has gone up. The 9-3 was a decent first effort of a Saab/GM car. That car will be refined and the next 9-3X hatchback with AWD will prove this. The 9-2X Saab/Subaru colaboration got Saab a step in the AWD game.

Further Saaburu colaborations like the 9-6X should work well also. Maybe Saab becomes the unofficial luxury division for Subaru. Nothing says a Saab can't have a Flat Four or Flat Six as long as it's turbo. ;-)

The upcoming 9-7x might prove to be a modest success. It has a decent V8, independent suspension, hopefully they will improve on the Buick Ranier interior, it looks good in preproduction. Heck if they get good build quality and can deliver on the driving expereince they promised, then you will have a nice truck.

To Saabs credit te 9-5 has held on in a very tough segment without major mods since 1999. IMHO the 9-5 Aero is equal to the 5 Series or E Series from a driving dynamics perspective. You can debate luxury if you must. But for pricepoint, the 9-5 Aero is flat better. I have driven them all.

To move forward though, GM will be key. The new RWD/AWD 9-5 based on a larger platform is what GM is really bringing to the table for Saab. If they want to be percieved as a luxury brand in the way the Lexus and now Infiniti have done, they need to really step up to a slightly larger platform, and allow for more powerful drivetrain. I think the new STS platform would be perfect, and thats what Saab should ask for from GM.

[saab_cruz]

well, at least they're still in buisness.

[serbsaab]

Saab-Europe's Oldsmobile!?

[saab_cruz]

o wut u against me too? :)

[saab9x]

If they want to be percieved as a luxury brand in the way the Lexus and now Infiniti have done,
...but being "in bed" with subaru forecloses that issue.

[Lodro]

...but being "in bed" with subaru forecloses that issue.
I dunno why in princple. I mean yea, Subaru prodcues some fairly mass-market cars but so do Toyota, Nissan and so on -- and now even the genrmans are trying by moving downscale. I think all have shown that they can take basic engineering principles and apply them to higher-line cars. That isn't the issue. Doing it on the cheap; e.g. disguising one mark for another is the part that has been shown not to work as well. Notice for example that Infiniti is abonding the I35 (Maxima clone) infavor of a standalone G35, even as they sell the G35, G35 coupe and 350Z on the same platform. Good judgement is what is important. I have no doubt that the outstanding engineers at Subaru can produce some truly worldclass cars with Saab given the resources. That last part obviously holds the rub.

[valbowski1980]

In my opinion the c900 is the greatest Saab of all time. It's not the fastest or the best built but you can tell what it is a mile away, it was unlike any car on the road and that was what made it beautiful. It was a Saab and it never apologized for it. Because of this I hate what Saab has become. I can understand the 9-3SS since it's very much its own car but the Saabaru and Trailblazer are too much. Like I said before, the WRX is a fine car but it has no business wearing a Griffin.

A car company which used to pride itself on innovation starts to dip into the communal parts bin this much has lost its bearings. To me this is the point where Saabs stops being Saab and becomes yet another GM coach builder. What is the point of having yet another one of them around?

[saab_cruz]

that was an excellent post val. a car company that was once original and unique has now become more of a generic mode of transportation.

personally, i liked saab when they looked and felt like airplanes. and the driver's seat felt like u were in a cockpit of a cessna, with its lighter materials, and more economical parts.

[jimbob]

Valbowski, you took the words out of my mouth. :wink:

Ha, just having a laugh at where Land Rover is in that JD survey :lol:

[Buddhabman]

...but being "in bed" with subaru forecloses that issue.
:roll:

Face it, Saab is going to become the luxury division of Subaru. :cheesy:

Saab will improve using Subaru AWD drivetrain and modified suspensions. Hell, Saab would benefit by switching to the boxer airplane engine layout, isn't that more in-line with an Aero theme. The boxer H4 and H6 with turbo would fit nicely in the Saabs.

Just imagine an AWD 9-5 with a Turbo 2.5L H4 in STi tune, with STi/Prodrive suspension and brakes. Umm :P

Look Saab is not Saab anymore, those days are long gone; but neither is Land Rover (Thank goodness), or Jag or Volvo for that matter. To some degree each of these brands has improved a bit by being apart of the behemouth companies.

I like the quirkiness of the old Saab, but that stubborn quirkiness got them where they are today. They became stagnant in their design of drivetrain systems, suspension systems and manufactured quality.

The Saab designers are still some of the worlds best, I have faith they can design a stunning car body and interior. Now they need a platform. GM + Subaru will help with that. So do you think Toyota or Honda would have made Saab better, and how so?

[valbowski1980]

. So do you think Toyota or Honda would have made Saab better, and how so?

Build quality and this magical thing called variable valve timing.

[Buddhabman]

. So do you think Toyota or Honda would have made Saab better, and how so?

Build quality and this magical thing called variable valve timing.

Ahh Build quality. Yes true enough, but that would depend on where they build them. VVT is great but the low torque motors with no turbo = high buzz driving = to much work & tiresome. Plus they are no help with styling or driving dynamics which is why you buy a Saab.

[Garuda]

If Toyota or Honda bought Saab, they would rename the 9-3 the Ching Chong Socky Socky Wagon. :o No thanks.

[saab9x]

:roll: Face it, Saab is going to become the luxury division of Subaru. :cheesy:
eww! (that one's gonna give me a nightmare.)

saab shouldn't be subaru's "luxury lackey." "premium" (or "upscale") cachet, if it's to survive, cannot be shared. (loosely put, something that's "pristine," by definition,cannot be diluted and still be considered, "pristine," or words to that effect.)

Look Saab is not Saab anymore, those days are long gone; but neither is Land Rover (Thank goodness), or Jag or Volvo for that matter. To some degree each of these brands has improved a bit by being apart of the behemouth companies.
it doesn't look like vol*o sold its "soul" to do it, though.

true, saab, like everything, must evolve; but can't it do so in a way without appearing to be an "apology" for ever having existed?

I like the quirkiness of the old Saab, but that stubborn quirkiness got them where they are today. They became stagnant in their design of drivetrain systems, suspension systems and manufactured quality.

but i'd rather see something more substantive than a "bandaid," desguised as a rebadge. updating the "quirkiness," (or "particularity") not muting it, is what i'd like to see.

The Saab designers are still some of the worlds best, I have faith they can design a stunning car body and interior. Now they need a platform. GM + Subaru will help with that.
id.

[valbowski1980]

Ahh Build quality. Yes true enough, but that would depend on where they build them.
The Hondas and Toyotas built here don't seem to suffer too much.
VVT is great but the low torque motors with no turbo = high buzz driving = to much work & tiresome. Plus they are no help with styling or driving dynamics which is why you buy a Saab.
Who is to say that you can't have a turbo and VVT. The different cam profiles would be great until the turbo kicked in.

[valbowski1980]

The Saab designers are still some of the worlds best, I have faith they can design a stunning car body and interior.

Didn't most of them get downsized?

[Buddhabman]

The Saab designers are still some of the worlds best, I have faith they can design a stunning car body and interior.

Didn't most of them get downsized?

Thats been reported in forums but I haven't seen where that is documented in any trades. I thought Saab still had their designers, although they may have had to move to Detroit. :-? I think they still have their style designers.

As far as VVT + Turbo. No examples thus far, doubt if Honda or Toyota would switch engine philosophies. Plus engines & engine management aren't Saabs weak point.

Also, very little that Honda or Toyota can add to suspension systems that Saab can't handle already. I note that the TSX and RSX and TL are good handlers, but the 9-3 & 9-5 are pretty good and just needs stiffer dampers and springs to be very good. I think the 9-3 can hang with a TSX and the 9-5 can hold it's own with a TL.

If Saab stays with the Impreza as the basis platform for the 9-2, the next gen Saabie will be awesome. Hopefully it will be more Saab in style though.

[ALLEN-JACKSON]

as far as "true saab designers"...i would speculate that there are none anymore.....unfortunatly when you paycheck is signed by mr. general motors you have a tendancy to do just what THEY want you to do.......i totaly love my '92 900s vert.......i used to manage a saab store in denver back in the early eightys.....i have seen the concept of saab slowly fade away....i now am a manager at a ford/subaru store north of seattle and i regretfully think that the last original thought that the designers at saab had.......died of lonlyness. saab will be "absorbed" like the "borg" and become history within 7 to 10 years.

(boy, i can't wait to see the hate mail that i comming to me)

allen
92 900s vert

[valbowski1980]

and the 9-5 can hold it's own with a TL

Don't agree with you there, by the numbers the TL should eat a stock 9-5 (Aero included) for breakfast. That and the fit and finish and build quality of the 9-5 is far inferior to that of the TL.

i regretfully think that the last original thought that the designers at saab had.......died of lonlyness

You have a legitimate point, even if many GM fans here ignore it. I put up with my 9000's (yeah I know it ain't 100% Saab) **** since it offers a real alternative to other cars in its class, new Saabs not so much.

[Buddhabman]

SPECS
Handling TL 9-5
Acceleration (0 - 60 mph) 6.53 secs. 6.7 secs.
Braking Distance (60 - 0 mph) 115.88 ft. 117.4 ft.

0-60 is close enough for most drivers. Plus there are other listings for 6.5 and 6.6 for the Aero. The 9-5 Aero will probably beat the TL in 70-100 roll-ons because of advantage in torque and weight.

Look the TL is very nice but it doesn't trounce a 9-5. The TL has a big price advantage.

http://www.edmunds.com/apps/nvc/edmunds/VehicleComparison;jsessionid=Bf3Aq1Y6aTiZtdXnmsall WqK6Hx1nOxk1XpnLnzNVg1bZUiELDEN!-1320413136?styleid=100358524&styleid=100454883&maxvehicles=5&refid=&op=3&tab=print

[valbowski1980]

Those TL numbers are for an Automatic. The 6-speed is a bit.

[serbsaab]

To me, the 9-5(happy owner) is the last of the old guard (even if Lancia co-developed the original) and when that ends its life, the old SAAB will be gone forever. :cry:
That's true! SAAB has struggled with a limited product line, even before GM came along!
If you want a SAAB with at least European quality levels, get a 9-5 while they're still around. Other than that, SAAB is dead -- in the future relegated to peddling badge-engineered low quality GM retreads.

Look at Volvo and how nicely organized it is right now. I suppose best thing to do is switch to awd, develop unmistakeable Saab-unique styling, increase the safety and performance levels, add luxury and that should work. Truth is, good and exciting cars sell, so-so cars don't.
Ford still builds Volvos and Jaguars in their native lands without any problems, take a lesson there GM.

Saab 9-7??? . Build a UNIQUE SUV.
If Volvo is known for safety, Saab should be known as the
divison of General Motors?
Saab used to be a brand that appealed to people who:

• Tend to be more educated than average with 4-5 years college minimum.
• Tend to hold professional associations
• Tend to have a higher average IQ
• Tend to be primarily white collar
• Tend to be lived in urban areas of higher than average RE Value
• Tend to consider themselves independent or liberal on the political scale.
• Tend to own cars for longer than average 5+ years
• Tend to support fiscaly conservative values in their own life
• Tend to be socialy, environmentaly conscious.
• Tend to look to their choice in a car to offer a statement of their above average intellegence.
• Tend to believe that the brand (Saab) is comparible to Volvo in frugality, value, safety, corporate morality and engineering.
After selling 25,813 units in the United States through August, Saab is barely halfway to its goal of 50,000 sales this year.

Eight-month sales numbers for the bread-and-butter 9-3 are 18,989 - down 20 percent from 23,731 in the year-ago period. The redesigned mid-sized sedan debuted last year, when it sold 34,075 units in the United States, pushing Saab to 47,914 overall sales for 2003.
Other European premium brands' cars are down this year. The BMW 3 series is down 7.6 percent for eight months this year, the Audi A4 is down 11.1 percent and the Volvo S60 is down 16.2 percent. But Volvo's SUV, the XC-90, is up 10 percent this year.

Saab introduced the 9-2X in June, but only 410 units of the premium compact were sold as of Aug. 31.

[SaabKen]

If Toyota or Honda bought Saab, they would rename the 9-3 the Ching Chong Socky Socky Wagon. :o No thanks.


The Geely Automobile Co. might call you to be their marketing director :lol:

http://autoweek.com/article.cms?articleId=100944

[serbsaab]

If Toyota or Honda bought Saab, they would rename the 9-3 the Ching Chong Socky Socky Wagon. :o No thanks.


The Geely Automobile Co. might call you to be their marketing director :lol:

http://autoweek.com/article.cms?articleId=100944

Sounds more like Chinese to me!

[lyricon]

Have to thow this in, Where I live I see so many pre 93 900 and 9000s every day. Plenty of mid 90's 9-3s % 95s too. These cars last. Hence the decline in new car purchases? My 900 has close to 200,000 and it is just getting it first major moter job. Head gasket. This cars has very little rust. Find a GM or Subaru or many other brands with that milage and age and being is as good shape. Saabs rep was built on these wonderful cars. They are tanks on wheels. Yes, the technology is way behing what we have now but way ahead of what was available back then. My car with just a slight APC tweak can blow away a lot of newer cars, and "bigger" engine cars. It will definatly go anywhere if there is ground clearance. It will allow it's occupants to survive most crashes. I thionk if all the owners of these cars wrote to Saab and asked for something along the lines of the pre 93 cars but with some obvious upgrades they might take notice. There is a huge customer base there. A pipe dream most likley but worth a try.

[Oliver]

and the 9-5 can hold it's own with a TL

Don't agree with you there, by the numbers the TL should eat a stock 9-5 (Aero included) for breakfast.

These numbers?

TL: 238 ft-lbs. @ 5000 rpm

9-5: 258 ft-lbs. @ 1900 rpm

[valbowski1980]

These numbers?

TL: 238 ft-lbs. @ 5000 rpm

9-5: 258 ft-lbs. @ 1900 rpm

Nope, these:

TL: 270 HP

9-5: 250 HP (Aero)

That and the 0-60 for the TL are sub-six-second. To the best of my knowledge the Aero's aren't. Lastly, the TL costs less.

[Lodro]

ONe thing -- you can't get the TL in a wagon. :D Anyway, give me torque any day. I do think that the TL is a much better looking offering thatn previous Acura, but it still feels like a bit of a commodity product to me -- something that for all their faults, 9-5s and older 9-3s certainly aren't. Viva l'difference.

[Buddhabman]

CHeck these results:

http://autos.msn.com/research/vip/spec_engines.aspx?modelid=11040&trimid=-1&src=vip

0-60 in mid sixes. Thats the same as the Aero.


I think the 9-3 Aero matches up pretty well with the TL in terms of size and driving dynamics also.

[valbowski1980]

Car and Driver pulled off 5.8 seconds with the 6-speed version in the 35K sedan test.

[Buddhabman]

Car and Driver pulled off 5.8 seconds with the 6-speed version in the 35K sedan test.

Was that the regular TL or A-Spec?

I fould these times on a perfomance database site.

2004 Acura TL 6 speed 6.0 14.44
2004 Acura TL A Spec 5.7 14.25
2004 Acura TSX 7.5 15.9 (est)

But overall I agee the TL is quicker 0-60. From 60-120+ I think the Saab would win.

Saab has dropped the ball by not upping the HP on the 2005 9-3 and the 9-5 as they can up it 25Hp and 50ft lbs trq fairly safely.

[SaabKen]

Saab has dropped the ball by not upping the HP on the 2005 9-3 and the 9-5 as they can up it 25Hp and 50ft lbs trq fairly safely.


Which makes me wonder if the '05 9-3 with 2.8L turbo V6 with 280hp/280 lb-ft will pretty much have to have full-time 4WD/AWD for it to even be credible.

[valbowski1980]

Was that the regular TL or A-Spec?

It was the regular one, they've yet to run an A-Spec in a comparo. I don't think the A-Spec is much faster, most of it's upgrades are brakes and suspention.

[Marquis de Saab]

If you want a SAAB with at least European quality levels, get a 9-5 while they're still around.
Describes my plans for next few years. Stick with 9-3SE for some time and replace it with 2 or 3 years old 9-5, let's say one of the last in 2005. After that... well, there is no more Saab after that, so I might just enjoy while I can!
Regards

[Lodro]

Was that the regular TL or A-Spec?

It was the regular one, they've yet to run an A-Spec in a comparo. I don't think the A-Spec is much faster, most of it's upgrades are brakes and suspention.

You're right, AFAIK, its not _any_ faster. There are no engine mods at all.

[db93a]

GM has little regard for Saab's traditions, it just wants to sell cars.


:roll: All the crying and whinning by old Saab traditionalists is just going backwards. If you love the brand and want the brand to succeed buy a new one.


Can't afford a new one, If I could I'd take my money elsewhere (BMW). As far as where my loyalties lie, my previous car was an Accord and after my subpar Saab experience my next car will be an Accord as well.


>>>>> then you must be a fan of Chris Bangle's hideous new designs. They make me puke, I had an E46 M3, BMW's miserable
customer service and crap connecting rod bearings chased me right into a Porsche showroom. Carrera 4S for a year, but couldn't continue to justify the payment, but "there is no substitute", when it came time for a 'normal' car, where did I land ? Back at Saab, this 9-3SS Aero is the best Saab ever built and one of the best cars I've ever owned. BMW can kiss my *** and Chris Bangle is a pederast.


Despite GM platform sharing which is the future period, the cars are nice.

Not as nice as what the competitors build.

>>>>> nicer or more importantly, a BETTER VALUE FOR THE DOLLAR

A modded 9-3 Aero with 18's and lowered is incredible looking, way better than a V70 R, G35, TL, C320 AMG, S4.
The 9-3SS isn't that impressive looking at all and tops only the G35, then again this is only my opinion.

>>>>>> I beg to differ, I get more comments on this car than any I've had except the Porsche



What do you say about the 9-7.

I say that SUVs suck and this one is no exception.

>>>>>> I'm in favour of the US government slowly raising the gas tax until we're on a par with Europe, then you'll see SUV's die or manufacturers making lighter more fuel efficient multi-purpose vehicles. Force them to change. SUVs are a blight on the American landscape


And as for Vauxhall, Europe can keep it.

>>>>> With Saab we have better than Vauxhall or Opel, by far

[valbowski1980]

>>>>> then you must be a fan of Chris Bangle's hideous new designs. They make me puke, I had an E46 M3, BMW's miserable
customer service and cr*p connecting rod bearings chased me right into a Porsche showroom. Carrera 4S for a year, but couldn't continue to justify the payment, but "there is no substitute", when it came time for a 'normal' car, where did I land ? Back at Saab, this 9-3SS Aero is the best Saab ever built and one of the best cars I've ever owned. BMW can kiss my *** and Chris Bangle is a pederast.

Bangle sucks and as far as I'm concerned he ruined BMW but do you know what that word means? That's a hell of an insult to toss at someone.

>>>>> nicer or more importantly, a BETTER VALUE FOR THE DOLLAR

This must explain the slipping market share then right?

>>>>>> I beg to differ, I get more comments on this car than any I've had except the Porsche

Matter of opinion I guess


>>>>>> I'm in favour of the US government slowly raising the gas tax until we're on a par with Europe, then you'll see SUV's die or manufacturers making lighter more fuel efficient multi-purpose vehicles. Force them to change. SUVs are a blight on the American landscape

I couldn't agree with you more.

[deniss]

I drove the new TL with stick. It's strong and smooth. But it doesn't have the nice boost punch of the new 9-3. Or 9-5 for that matter! Plus, its rear sit doesn't fold down, which is pretty much the reason why I won't buy this car until they fix this big logistical flaw. Come on - every car has those except for some Acura and some Lexus cars.

I drove the new V70R/S60R with stick. Stock, it will spank any Saab any day. But it doesn't quite match the pleasant driving dynamics of the 9-3. It has an unpleasant shifter and I don't like the gearing as much as on the 9-3. 9-3 is smooth as silk. I almost bought it... But for the lack of money, I bought a classic 900 instead and have been in love with it ever since.

I kinda hate the beemers. Their dealerships suck, and they think there's nobody else out there but them who knows how to make cars. Granted, I was quite impressed by the driving feel of 3-series, but what's the point if there's not enough room for me to sit comfortably in the driver's seat? I drove the new X3... Excellent audio system, interior, room, etc etc... But the usual problem - price too high and not enough go.

With Mercedes, if you can afford one, get two for twice the price because with its constant electrical problems, you're likely to have at least one in the shop a lot. That reminds me on the Jags.

So I think Saab is doing something right, especially with the new 9-3. It's a good development to build on. But 9-7 was a mistake, in my opinion... Unless it happens to make Saab a whole lot of money!