The M5 [Archive] - SaabCentral Forums

: The M5


goalkeeper21
12th May 2004, 04:11 PM
http://autoweek.com/cat_content.mv?port_code=autoweek&cat_code=coverstory&loc_code=&content_code=02186323

That is pretty nasty! I was just looking at it, 7 speed manual with 500bhp. I wouldn't mind driving it. that is pretty heavy though 3900 lbs.
Tony

sjhudon
12th May 2004, 04:15 PM
http://autoweek.com/cat_content.mv?port_code=autoweek&cat_code=coverstory&loc_code=&content_code=02186323

that is pretty heavy though 3900 lbs.
Tony


Yes how is it ever going to move all that weight! :cheesy:

goalkeeper21
12th May 2004, 04:24 PM
I think the torque could be a little bit higher, I love the styling though, the front looks so agressive. Job well done BMW!
Tony

Willy Wonka
12th May 2004, 09:19 PM
I'm in trouble. :o Joining the ranks of the perceptually challenged.
It reminds me of a saturn. You don't know if it has dent proof doors? An 80k saturn, it had better do 0-60 in 4.7 secs. I can see some engineer using a bridge arch analysis program to model the roof. What's wrong with this paradyme?
When we were kids gm had this design contest for kids. The entry was a wooden model of a car of the future. Pure creativity and imagination at work.

Upon reading this I'll beat you all to the punch. "Did he say perceptually or perpetually?"

enobar
12th May 2004, 09:58 PM
I'll take mine in steel grey.... mmmmmmm

goalkeeper21
12th May 2004, 10:09 PM
I'm in trouble. :o Joining the ranks of the perceptually challenged.
It reminds me of a saturn. You don't know if it has dent proof doors? An 80k saturn, it had better do 0-60 in 4.7 secs. I can see some engineer using a bridge arch analysis program to model the roof. What's wrong with this paradyme?
When we were kids gm had this design contest for kids. The entry was a wooden model of a car of the future. Pure creativity and imagination at work.

Upon reading this I'll beat you all to the punch. "Did he say perceptually or perpetually?"

I don't see the saturn at all. From the 3/4 picture, I see a speck of TL around the back area. I love the front spoiler though.
Tony

Vector-SS
12th May 2004, 10:11 PM
the 4.7 seconds probably resulted for excessive wheelspin. With 500 horses, damn, thats a lot. I'm very impressed myself with the new styling; very aggresive looking

Willy Wonka
12th May 2004, 10:13 PM
I said I was in trouble. 8)
Sorry, I do see saturn in the roof lines and the flow of the arch into the rear quarter. What's worse I see it in the front pillar posts. :o

goalkeeper21
12th May 2004, 10:18 PM
I said I was in trouble. 8)
Sorry, I do see saturn in the roof lines and the flow of the arch into the rear quarter. What's worse I see it in the front pillar posts. :o

Everyone's entitled to their own opinion. Anyone else see the TL in it? or am I just seeing things?
Tony

Mattlach
12th May 2004, 10:25 PM
With 500 horses, damn, thats a lot.

Horses mean nothing. Torque means everything. Obey your right foot.

err.. or something..

I seriously dont know why the bother rating peak horsepower at all. As I understand it HP isnt indicative of anything. Whats really interesting is the torque number, and how wide an rpm band this torque is available over.

Mattlach
12th May 2004, 10:29 PM
I'm in trouble. :o Joining the ranks of the perceptually challenged.
It reminds me of a saturn. You don't know if it has dent proof doors? An 80k saturn, it had better do 0-60 in 4.7 secs. I can see some engineer using a bridge arch analysis program to model the roof. What's wrong with this paradyme?
When we were kids gm had this design contest for kids. The entry was a wooden model of a car of the future. Pure creativity and imagination at work.

Upon reading this I'll beat you all to the punch. "Did he say perceptually or perpetually?"

meh. It looks just like the more pedestrian 5-series, but a little riced up. (In other words, like a slightly more riced up, butt ugly car)

Whatever happened to the BMW M philosophy of great performance with subtle looks?

If you ask me, the last generation 5 searies is way more aesthetically pleasing, with classic lines that are classy and subtle.

Doesnt anyone believe in tasteful restraint anymore?

goalkeeper21
12th May 2004, 10:30 PM
They way I've always thought about it, was Torque is good for stand still, it what gets the car to move. So 0-60 I think torque numbers would have more to do with how fast it goes 0-60. But HP numbers would be from 60-120, the hp will get the car moving faster, when it is moving. Does that make any sense? so you are right according to my theory about the 0-60 numbers. I think that 369 isn't that much if you are comparing it to the 500 hp. just my two cents.
Tony

Mattlach
12th May 2004, 10:55 PM
They way I've always thought about it, was Torque is good for stand still, it what gets the car to move. So 0-60 I think torque numbers would have more to do with how fast it goes 0-60. But HP numbers would be from 60-120, the hp will get the car moving faster, when it is moving. Does that make any sense? so you are right according to my theory about the 0-60 numbers. I think that 369 isn't that much if you are comparing it to the 500 hp. just my two cents.
Tony

Interesting.

That may explain why my Aero is realtively quick up to approx 100mph, but after that slower than expected.

The Aeros have a decent amount of torque, but horsepower is relatively low..

Vector-SS
12th May 2004, 11:06 PM
My Vector is not too fast up to 100, but after 100 is where it shines? weird.

goalkeeper21
12th May 2004, 11:42 PM
My Vector is not too fast up to 100, but after 100 is where it shines? weird.

Well the turbo helps with the power at high speeds. That is just my philosophy, I'm sure others here have a different one though.
Tony

Dan1
13th May 2004, 01:18 AM
now if it only wasn't so damned ugly...

ragtopcav
13th May 2004, 03:49 AM
Q. What's wrong with this paradyme?
A. It's spelt wrong :cheesy: [paradigm]

greenphotos
13th May 2004, 04:00 AM
Q. What's wrong with this paradyme?
A. It's spelt wrong :cheesy: [paradigm]

:lol: - Sorry - I'd never know how to spell it either - well caught Raggy. :cheesy:

Russell
13th May 2004, 05:47 AM
..lovely car, looks way to big to hussle around fast bendy roads though, the E39 is a handful already.

read somewhere that the next 2 years allocations have already been sold out - bloomin speculators up to their usual tricks again.

can't wait to see the engine in the new M6, now that should be interesting. BMW also toying with the idea of sticking the V12 into the 5 to make more of a 'luxury' M5, now that would be very weird indeed.

The next gen M3 will be a V8 - the V6's aren't potent enough anymore. BMW really are very clever at playing the power game. Take the new 530d - pulls the same torque as the current M5 369lbf. They won't make it more torquey that the M5 because that would not look good - diesel more powerful than the ubersaloon... No doubt when the mext M5 does arrive the current 530d will receive a power hike. to beat the V10 volkswagen....

Saba
13th May 2004, 06:02 AM
huh! 100hp per litre, so does my Saab :cheesy: (actually more :D )

Paco
13th May 2004, 06:20 AM
Ugly. Ugly. Ugly.

and expensive.

and did I say it was ugly?

Looks like a Ssangyong concept car.

I'm sure it goes like hell, but it's too big, ugly and if they break down as much as the current ones and the ones before, I struggle to see the point.

Buy the Jag.

I'm done.

Alex
13th May 2004, 07:40 AM
A high power figure is a good indication that the engine is producing reasonable torque at the top end, or has a high rev range. For acceleration tests, 0-60, 0-100 etc, where the engine will spend most of its time spinning at or around peak power/rev limit, it is the power figure that determines the acceleration times.

BMW really are very clever at playing the power game. Take the new 530d - pulls the same torque as the current M5 369lbf. They won't make it more torquey that the M5 because that would not look good - diesel more powerful than the ubersaloon... No doubt when the mext M5 does arrive the current 530d will receive a power hike. to beat the V10 volkswagen....

BMW have already produced their next gen 3.0 litre turbo diesel. Uses sequential turbos, more than 2.5bar of boost and develops over 400lbft of torque.

Stumpage
13th May 2004, 08:01 AM
Good power. Dog ugly looking though.

baco99
13th May 2004, 09:32 AM
now if it only wasn't so damned ugly...

exactly.

abdukted1456
13th May 2004, 09:42 AM
I liked the previous M5 way better, more subtle. Yet this one has grown on me, just like the new 7 has grown on me.

Put it this way, everyone is entitled to their opinions on what is ugly and what is not, but if someone wants to give me this new M5 for my birthday I would not be upset about it by any means! :D :D :D :wink: I could deal with 500 horses if the car wasn't exactly "perfect" on the outside! :D

Russell
13th May 2004, 11:12 AM
...funny thing is, you can never have enough. thought the M5 was amazing - now get in it and there are times when it does feel underpowered. Been looking at the Sl55 AMG, but the missues does not like mercs - something about the middle aged bloke image.. aparently they have more cachet around the pipe and slippers brigade than do saabs :D

Mattlach
13th May 2004, 11:28 AM
...funny thing is, you can never have enough. thought the M5 was amazing - now get in it and there are times when it does feel underpowered. Been looking at the Sl55 AMG, but the missues does not like mercs - something about the middle aged bloke image.. aparently they have more cachet around the pipe and slippers brigade than do saabs :D

I don't have much experience on the topic but personally I prefer BMW's over Mercs for the very aspect of handling.

I have only driven very few though.

The BMW's in general just seem more neutral in their over/understeer tendencies, and tend to have suspension tuned to a perfect middle ground betweeen every day comfort, and racecar stiffness.

Mercs... jsut dont seem to have that, even if some of them have more power...

Power isnt everything.. if it were the Corvette would be on my shopping list. (eeechh american car alert. lets just set them all on fire)


Quote of the week..
"Sure, you can go real fast in a straight line, but can you keep up with my four-bannger in an average corner?"

dano1atty
13th May 2004, 11:39 AM
I said I was in trouble. 8)
Sorry, I do see saturn in the roof lines and the flow of the arch into the rear quarter. What's worse I see it in the front pillar posts. :o

Everyone's entitled to their own opinion. Anyone else see the TL in it? or am I just seeing things?
Tony

I see the Saturn on the profile. I also see the (King-sized) Kia Rio in the rear 1/4, but not the TL. That's just me. :wink: . The front is impressive, though, but overall I don't like this redesign. They might have to tweak the rear like they are doing to the 7-series.

Oliver
13th May 2004, 12:53 PM
now get in it and there are times when it does feel underpowered.

:o
Exuse me!?
Are you serious?
I recently drove an Audi A8 with a smidge over 300 bhp and that was... *gasps for breath*
I can't even think how much *gasps for breath, again* 500 bhp must feel like...

ragtopcav
13th May 2004, 12:55 PM
now get in it and there are times when it does feel underpowered.

:o
Exuse me!?
Are you serious?
I recently drove an Audi A8 with a smidge over 300 bhp and that was... *gasps for breath*
I can't even think how much *gasps for breath, again* 500 bhp must feel like...The A8 as I recall weighs a lot less [all aluminium body]

Mattlach
13th May 2004, 01:04 PM
now get in it and there are times when it does feel underpowered.

:o
Exuse me!?
Are you serious?
I recently drove an Audi A8 with a smidge over 300 bhp and that was... *gasps for breath*
I can't even think how much *gasps for breath, again* 500 bhp must feel like...The A8 as I recall weighs a lot less [all aluminium body]

Hmm As I remember the all aluminum body was little more than a gimmick.. Sure it reduces weight, but the body panels on a modern car really arnt that heavy compared to all the other components anyway....

Mattlach
13th May 2004, 01:07 PM
:o
Exuse me!?
Are you serious?
I recently drove an Audi A8 with a smidge over 300 bhp and that was... *gasps for breath*
I can't even think how much *gasps for breath, again* 500 bhp must feel like...

Although my car is no M5 or A8, the thing with power is that you get used to it very very quickly.

My 9-5 Aero felt fast the first two times I drove it. After that it felt slow and boring, just like my last car.

So if you are used to driving the AMG's I can definitely see where an M5 could feel a littel underpowered...

ragtopcav
13th May 2004, 01:18 PM
Hmm As I remember the all aluminum body was little more than a gimmick.. Sure it reduces weight, but the body panels on a modern car really arnt that heavy compared to all the other components anyway....Become less of a novalty or gimmick, though for the time being will be seen as an exotic body material;

"Meanwhile, its least expensive full-sized German rivals are the $174,100 BMW 735i (200kW 3.6-litre V8), $177,900 Mercedes S-class (180kW 3.7-litre V6) and $173,900 Audi A8 (206kW 3.7-litre V8).

Jaguar says the AJ-V6 unit can be utilised because of the weight savings of todays XJs aluminium body, which comes in at 1545kg, which is more than 300kg less than the aforementioned big BMW and also beats the Benz S350 (1810kg) and even the aluminium-pioneering (but all-wheel drive) A8 (1770kg).

Employing aluminium instead of steel sees a body-in-white weight drop of 40 per cent compared to the old XJ, while overall rigidity rises 60 per cent an upshot of the riveted and bonded building technique.

Other benefits include improved noise, vibration and harshness quelling, more precise steering and less body flexing for improved dynamic attributes. "

I lifted this from some article or other, Interesting the Audi A8 is not that light is it, but the Jag tips the scales lighter than a 9-5 aero wagon :o

goalkeeper21
13th May 2004, 01:36 PM
I think Mattlach hit it on the nail. Once you've driven the car for a while, the power just grows on you. Since I've been down here at school and I haven't driven my saab I've grown accustomed to much less powerful cars. So once I step into the saab and hit the gas, then I feel like I'm flying. I think that the M5 is a pretty powerful car, but again like others have pointed out, it probably won't handle all that great. It has 50/50 weight distribution but 3900 lbs (don't know how many kilos) the article doesn't say anything about the suspension and I don't know the numbers for the previous M5. I'm sure that the suspension is pretty good though. I think the worst part in all those MB are that they are autos. I've always thought that a true sportscar should be a stick. But then again I've never driven any mercs of even any paddle shifting cars. Anyone have one I could test drive for a day? :cheesy:
Tony

Mattlach
13th May 2004, 01:44 PM
I think that the M5 is a pretty powerful car, but again like others have pointed out, it probably won't handle all that great. It has 50/50 weight distribution but 3900 lbs (don't know how many kilos) the article doesn't say anything about the suspension and I don't know the numbers for the previous M5. I'm sure that the suspension is pretty good though.

As I remember, the old M5 weighed almost two tonnes as well.

I also remember several auto journalists commenting that BMW's divinly tuned suspension made it feel like, and behave like a much lighter car.

I have no personal experience though. Anyone want to take me for a test drive? PM me :cheesy:

goalkeeper21
13th May 2004, 01:53 PM
I want to try and get my dad to get us a test drive with an M3, the M5 I think they'd just laugh at us. The M3 and the M5 have similar suspensions, if not identical. My friend test drove an older M3 ('95 or something) He loved the car and how it handled.
Tony

deniss
13th May 2004, 02:11 PM
I don't like how BMW has ruined the perfect shape that it had with previous 5-series and previous 7-series. Those used to be unmistakably BMW, and I LOVED the shape of previous 5-series. It was very pleasing and subtle, like the current 3-series. I wish they just left it alone. But I guess if you don't update the shape, you don't sell, huh. They could just upgrade all the technology inside it, if need be...

Mattlach
13th May 2004, 02:16 PM
I want to try and get my dad to get us a test drive with an M3, the M5 I think they'd just laugh at us. The M3 and the M5 have similar suspensions, if not identical. My friend test drove an older M3 ('95 or something) He loved the car and how it handled.
Tony

hehe Although I am only 24, I look much older to most people. So I dressed up in my work clothes and walzed into Newport BMW and looked very interested in the 2003 M3 they had on the lot.

Convinced the dealer to let me take it for a test drive, and... wow! I love Saabs and all, but the M3 just lacks comparison...

Mattlach
13th May 2004, 02:17 PM
I don't like how BMW has ruined the perfect shape that it had with previous 5-series and previous 7-series. Those used to be unmistakably BMW, and I LOVED the shape of previous 5-series. It was very pleasing and subtle, like the current 3-series. I wish they just left it alone. But I guess if you don't update the shape, you don't sell, huh. They could just upgrade all the technology inside it, if need be...

Well i wouldnt ahve been as bothered if it were a progressive update of the old 5 series look, but this radical departure really bothers me...

goalkeeper21
13th May 2004, 02:27 PM
I want to try and get my dad to get us a test drive with an M3, the M5 I think they'd just laugh at us. The M3 and the M5 have similar suspensions, if not identical. My friend test drove an older M3 ('95 or something) He loved the car and how it handled.
Tony

hehe Although I am only 24, I look much older to most people. So I dressed up in my work clothes and walzed into Newport BMW and looked very interested in the 2003 M3 they had on the lot.

Convinced the dealer to let me take it for a test drive, and... wow! I love Saabs and all, but the M3 just lacks comparison...

Okay, so you can be my father and we can go and test drive one, I'm only an hour and a half drive away JK!
Tony

93-4ME
13th May 2004, 02:45 PM
HP = (Torque x RPM) / 5250

This is for lb-ft torque measurement.

(The 5250 is needed for unit conversion.)


Diesel engines usually have low HP ratings because of their lower RPM limits.

Honda V-TECs usually have decent HP/liter due to their ability to rev like crazy but have little torque.

GearHead
13th May 2004, 06:40 PM
now if it only wasn't so damned ugly...
what if it had '98 M5 stlyin and that power? 8)

Mattlach
13th May 2004, 06:49 PM
now if it only wasn't so damned ugly...
what if it had '98 M5 stlyin and that power? 8)

I prefer the 2001 look myself, or whatever year it was the updated the tail and headlights, and modified the body mouldings a little.

They would probably have to update the frame and suspension as well, and throw in some more technical gizmos.. If that were the case, I'd instantly love the car :)

sjhudon
13th May 2004, 06:56 PM
I think if anyone would offer me any M5 I would take it and be happy. :o 8)

CosmicSaab
13th May 2004, 08:14 PM
I think if anyone would offer me any M5 I would take it and be happy. :o 8)

Agreed.

The new 5 has grown on me. At first I hated it, but now I actually kind of like it.


And torque is more important in U.S. driving because it is was matters from 0-75, from there HP takes over. So on Autobahn driving more HP is good.

Dan1
13th May 2004, 08:39 PM
I think if anyone would offer me any M5 I would take it and be happy. :o 8)
meh. if i was offered it for free, yeah i'd take it, but i'd probably sell it and buy a viggen.

if there is a god, he will smote bangle.

Mattlach
13th May 2004, 09:01 PM
if there is a god, he will smote bangle.

You know. I share your distaste for the image that boes along with bmw's and I dislike most people who drive them, but there is no denying that BMW's are some fine cars...

Dan1
14th May 2004, 12:22 AM
if there is a god, he will smote bangle.

You know. I share your distaste for the image that boes along with bmw's and I dislike most people who drive them, but there is no denying that BMW's are some fine cars...
well i think they are too, but bangle is still a twat.

Russell
14th May 2004, 05:27 AM
it is interesting this reliability thing with the Mcars.

Having had a number of (quite serious) bits replaced on mine and having had BMW pay the best part of 8000 for the repairs via their truly amazing used car warranty, I am inclined to think myself that my saab is certainly the more reliable and at times the more fun to drive.

I drive a lot of miles, on a bad week somewhere around a 1000 and for those the M5 is brilliant. Motorways/freeways etc it is just so easy, the torque means that you never have to change gear - i mean it will start in 4th gear. But for fun I love the saab to bits - it takes more work, but driven around the same back roads as the BM, it feels so much more balanced - no drift and no wheel scrub at all.

Probably the power thing is subjsctive - you do get used to it.

But I would say though, if anyone here is in the market for a dealer sourced second hand car, buy a BM, the warranties and service are second to none

Russell

Paco
14th May 2004, 06:45 AM
A fair point, but I would not expect to buy any car short of a Daytona and have 8,000 of running repairs, it's outrageous!

I suggest the car hasn't been properly developed if they expect these sort of failures, the warranty and aftersales may be excellent, but I bet you'd rather not have to bother?

Personally, I couldn't buy a 25k (+!!!) car that is likely to break down, something big BM's, all Mercs and some Audis seem to do with regular monotony, what happened to German build quality? Replaced with good dealer back-up?

Everyone I know who runs a Merc built in the last few years says it has broken down, apart from the guy I know with a C43 8) . Rubbish. You wouldn't tolerate it in a Micra, so why with soething costing 10 times more?

Hmmm is this a rant???? Sorry!!! :oops:

Now that I've convinced you it's a heap, just drop it round to my place Russell, I'll dispose of it for you :wink:

dano1atty
14th May 2004, 09:55 AM
Well i wouldnt ahve been as bothered if it were a progressive update of the old 5 series look, but this radical departure really bothers me...

Bam! You hit the nail on the head. Radical redesigns have a way of looking gimmicky if everybody doesn't follow suit. Witness the Ford Taurus, the erstwhile sales leader. After it went Oval--oval windshield, overall shape, etc--and began to look like an inverted boat, sales went south. Forced to retrace its steps, it nonetheless lost its crown to the Camry for, inter alia, that self-same radical redesign.

Russell
14th May 2004, 10:01 AM
Paco...hash words ... perhaps I would not go so far as saying a heap .. but I do agree that the repair bill was rather steep...mind you almost 2000 was labour !

My colleague has a 4 year old benz 300 - suffering from rust. Under the bonnet, front wings and rear wings and near the suspension points. Mercedes repaired it, but you know the sting in the tail, once resprayed it is not longer elligible for the 30 year paint warranty ... nice getout clause me thinks!!!

thinking about the development comment you made, you could argue the same about most manufacturers. plugs on fords rust and render the repair bill more than the car... the c900 has a pretty ropey gearbox for standard power output let along Pete Tandino levels of torque.. like all complex things it's the sum of its parts and some of the parts were not developed well, namely Vanos being one of them, which just so happens to be a rather complex and expensive thing to replace.

Intersting point about the micra though - engineering tollerances in mid range cars is easy to define - compare the failures of high end/performance machines to mid range / low performance and see if there is a noticible difference in failure sample size. Up the power on a micra to 150 hp (for example) and see how it would last, as compared to a cooling 60 bhp one.

The one thing that does make me hold back on an AMG is that the costs are even more expensive than the M and the service from Mercedes is awful, simply these people have an arrogance that needs to be experienced to be believed.

Every car around has its flaws - even the mighty lexus with its high JD power rating, suffers failures. Suburus and Evo's munch their way through syncros and diffs at an alarming rate. You pay your money and you take your choice

For 25k what would you buy ?

Just curious really

Russell

Mattlach
14th May 2004, 10:06 AM
Suburus and Evo's munch their way through syncros and diffs at an alarming rate.

I'm quite willing to fault the drivers of these machines though :cheesy:

It seems most people I see in Evos or WRX's redline and shift hard all day... No car is going to survive that treatment...

Mattlach
14th May 2004, 10:10 AM
Bam! You hit the nail on the head.

Why thank you :)

Witness the Ford Taurus, the erstwhile sales leader. After it went Oval--oval windshield, overall shape, etc--and began to look like an inverted boat, sales went south.

Funny you should mention that particular car. I traded in my '97 Mercury Sable LS for my '01 9-5 Aero not too long ago.

I never liked th elooks of that car, but its what I could afford as my college car. I'm guessing the fact that everyone thought it was ugly drove down the price on it, which is why I could afford it...

Speaking of the BMW though. I saw a new 5:er on the road today, and it actually didn't bother me as much as it used to. In fact I kinda liked it.

Am I *gulp* getting used to the new ridiculous design? Startign to like what I initially hated?

fabric
14th May 2004, 12:13 PM
Hmm As I remember the all aluminum body was little more than a gimmick.. Sure it reduces weight, but the body panels on a modern car really arnt that heavy compared to all the other components anyway....

Not just aluminum body, but aluminum chassis as well.

Ever see that picture of two women holding up the chassis of the A8 by themselves? It weighed 200 pounds.

But then all that weight savings gets eaten up by the quattro.

goalkeeper21
15th May 2004, 12:56 AM
It seems most people I see in Evos or WRX's redline and shift hard all day... No car is going to survive that treatment...
I have a friend that has a WRX and he shifts so hard! my best friend always tells me that he will need a new tranny in a year or so. i think the all wheel drive has something to do with that though.
Tony

SaabScott
17th May 2004, 07:22 PM
I think I am going to change my vote in the "what one car would you want to own?" thread! :o :cheesy:

goalkeeper21
17th May 2004, 09:31 PM
I think I am going to change my vote in the "what one car would you want to own?" thread! :o :cheesy:

You want the new M5? nice! got some gitty up!
Tony