Increase boost! [Archive] - SaabCentral Forums

: Increase boost!


neapleaze
25th April 2004, 10:42 PM
hey i just found out how to increase boost on my saab 2004, add a T- Vaccuum 3/16 from your turbo... i just did it and my first and second gears are boosting a lot better now... if anybodyhas tried this.. any kind of negatives if so what? I cut the vaccuum hose from my turbo to... dont know the name.. just got shown from a friend...

ctrlz
26th April 2004, 12:48 AM
Intriguing :o

Please post details and pics. If you know the theory behind this mod please share it.

M4Gunner
26th April 2004, 01:53 AM
me too, me too.. i wanna know! NOW!! :wink: 8)

neapleaze
26th April 2004, 02:09 AM
i'll take a picture of what i did and send post it tomorrow

in quick detail this is what i did... cut a tube i guess you could call it from the turbo... i think its coming from the asperator? but you cut it and then what you do is you buy a T-Vaccuum hose make sure its 3/16 by 1/4 shaped like a "T." well you put each of the Top of the T's connected to the tube from which you just cut, and then you have one tube open for more air access... this gave me more boost in my first and second gears... also you can hear the cool whistle sound, its louder... somewhat resembles a blow off valve. Picture will come soon! :lol:

M4Gunner
26th April 2004, 02:24 AM
how long ago did you do this? im just wondering about any issues it may cause. it just seems like if it was this easy, people would have been doing that for years now. ive never heard of this, but that doesnt mean a thing, im just cautious i guess. where does your boost guage needle stop now?

neapleaze
26th April 2004, 02:27 AM
i just did it today, i was hoping others would know... let me ask arond for more info

I first tried the 3/16 x 1/8 but it wasnt bringing enough air into the turbo i guess... so i put a 1/4 and i felt a major positive impact. I got better acceleration this way.. and i am really desperate for that right now... my first mod.. just owned my saab for a week now

M4Gunner
26th April 2004, 02:30 AM
ok, ill talk to my speed shop guys and see what else i can find out as well.

neapleaze
26th April 2004, 02:31 AM
thanks i will do the same... but for sure i will take pictures of my baby tomorrow

M4Gunner
26th April 2004, 02:34 AM
thats cool.. ill PM you my email address. send em ASAP if ya can! ty

Gunner

Cayman1
26th April 2004, 09:48 AM
This is exactly the trick i did with my skyline.
what it does is allow more air to the turbo's actuartor/wastegate and bypasses the cars boost control.
i also played around with different size t-fittings but be careful because i tried a large one and the boost just kept on going and going.

Not sure if this is a healthy boost solution for our cars though.

ctrlz
26th April 2004, 10:32 AM
I think I found an explanation for this.

What it actually does is LIMIT the amount of pressure getting to the wastegate actuator. The wastegate opens later, and you get MORE boost.

Just using a T-fitting (as described above) bleeds off some air, thus lowering pressure.

I found this alternative solution, which works by inserting an adjustable restricting valve. Looks pretty neat, is adjustable, and won't whistle. Plus you can back it off completely when you take the vehicle to the dealer.

http://www.autospeed.com/cms/article.html?&A=0028

Very cool! Time to scour the web for appropriate parts. Somebody get the diameter of the hose in the 9-3 quick! I'm guessing neapleaze used a fitting for 3/16" hose with a 1/4" tee. If you're gonna do it this way, better use a metal fitting.

ctrlz
26th April 2004, 11:05 AM
Here's a start:
http://www.boostvalve.com/moreinfo.html
http://www.boostvalve.com/pricelist.html

ctrlz
26th April 2004, 11:31 AM
This setup is a bit different than the one in the autospeed article:
http://www.boostvalve.com/tech/IC_install.html

neapleaze's method and the autospeed method work by fooling the factory boost controller. One by bleeding off pressure, the other by limiting it.

The boostvalve system eliminates feedback control from the turbo outlet (note the vacuum caps), and uses actual intake pressure. Pressure builds to a specific level (based on the spring in the valve), then dumps instantly to the wastegate. So this is a pressure relief valve, rather than an adjustable needle valve. Price is reasonable, dontcha think?

Any thoughts on which approach is better? It would seem to me the system which fools the boost controller would be safer, but the boostvalve approach would make for a snappy ride! Also, we will have to take a closer look at the Saab actuator, and find a convenient line with intake manifold pressure. Boostvalve sells kits for the 9-3 (probably older generation), but I'm guessing it's doable for our cars.

ctrlz
26th April 2004, 11:40 AM
Some interesting reading:
http://features.evolutionm.net/article/machvcorner/30/1

pjku79
26th April 2004, 11:42 AM
Ok i read some of the stuff Ctrlz linked and according to that there should be more boost lag with using the T. Can you varify this neapleaze? Is there more or less turbo lag? Next if we use the boost control valve, this should reduce the turbo lag even more, right? Personally i dont mind the turbo lag at launch but it pisses me off when i shift gears.

ctrlz
26th April 2004, 12:10 PM
Another interesting approach:
http://www.autospeed.com/cms/A_0670/article.html?popularArticle

ctrlz
26th April 2004, 01:20 PM
The best (cheap )systems to reduce turbo lag are the ones which incorporate the pressure reflief valves. One thing to watch out for is there has to be a way to bleed off pressure in between the valve and the wastegate actuator, or the wastgate will never close once it's opened.

The system with the pressure regulator downstream of the PRV uses a special kind of regulator which will bleed down. This is NOT the standard type used for air compressors. The product offered by boostvalve probably incorporates a tiny bleed hole somewhere.

The more I read, it seems there is a BIG difference in performance between the simple systems which REDUCE pressure going to the actuator compared to the systems which completely BLOCK it.

M4Gunner
26th April 2004, 01:56 PM
well... good hunting ctrlz! im on my way to the store to see what i can find! :)

Vector-SS
26th April 2004, 03:09 PM
Do you guys thing this upgrade can be done to a PPC'd Saab, or would it be too much

pjku79
26th April 2004, 03:24 PM
i think i might be the boostvalve one just so i have the option to adjust it. plus its only $40.

ctrlz
26th April 2004, 03:37 PM
The PPC may already change settings on the boost controller, but it's probably not as aggressive as the valve which blocks the pressure. Anyone who does this mod will be sacrificing driveability for kick-in-the-pants boost.

I have to get a look at the wastegate actuator to see if it has one or two ports. It may receive signal from BOTH the turbo outlet and the intake manifold, and the boost controller may just vent excess pressure as it sees fit. The preferred signal from a performance standpoint is to just use intake manifold pressure, and plug the turbo outlet and extra actuator vent.

BTW, Vector-SS, Black 6 spd-- same as me!

ctrlz
26th April 2004, 03:39 PM
i think i might be the boostvalve one just so i have the option to adjust it. plus its only $40.
Might want to contact the guy who runs that site/business and see if he knows about the new 9-3. His site shows he takes a lot of pride in his product.

Vector-SS
26th April 2004, 03:59 PM
6spd Black is the way to go ;). Btw what did you mean when you said that driveability will be sacrificed?

ctrlz
26th April 2004, 04:14 PM
6spd Black is the way to go ;). Btw what did you mean when you said that driveability will be sacrificed?

The system will basically be tuned to get to maximum boost in a hurry and then stay there.

In stock configuration, the computer can tell the boost controller to open the wastegate to reduce power quickly. Depending on speed, acceleration, driving style, etc. it can also let boost pressure build slowly or quickly as needed. This kind of adaptability will be gone. The traction and stability controls use both the brake system and throttle to maintain control. My guess is that when these cut the throttle, they also open the wastegate. So, some of these capabilites will be lost. OTOH, most of us who do this kind of stuff like a less refined ride anyway.

Vector-SS
26th April 2004, 04:16 PM
hmmm.... i guess i will back off on this one then. Guess the PPC is just perfect

M4Gunner
26th April 2004, 04:19 PM
Do you guys thing this upgrade can be done to a PPC'd Saab, or would it be too much

i think youd be fine. the PPC doesnt put it that close to the "danger zone".

ctrlz
26th April 2004, 04:49 PM
Do you guys thing this upgrade can be done to a PPC'd Saab, or would it be too much

i think youd be fine. the PPC doesnt put it that close to the "danger zone".

Once we find the appropriate regulator, the total budget for this project will probably still be under $100 US. The relief valve can be had for less than $50 through boostvalve already. So, even if you already have PPC, it's probably worth the small investment to try this, if you're interested.

I like the idea of the regulator downstream from the PRV, because that sets the limit on how far the wastegate can open. That should add a nice degree of tunability.

I was thinking there might be a way to use a conventional regulator, provided some simple bleed valve could be installed between the regulator and the wastegate actuator. You might even be able to get away with a simple brass coupler with a tiny hole drilled in it. I have a collection of extremely fine drill bits (sizes 50-90, or something like that). One of those might do the trick. You need to bleed off that pressure holding the wastgate open, so that when you slow down or stop it closes again.

ctrlz
26th April 2004, 05:33 PM
Some do-it-yourself projects I found:
http://home.att.net/~jason510/ManualController.htm
http://www.xmission.com/~dempsey/perform/grainger.htm

And pre-assembled with some FAQ's:
http://www.dawesdevices.com/boost.html

oslowley
26th April 2004, 09:03 PM
I just did the "el cheapo" method on my PPC'd 6spd vector and I it works, I think. I see more boost in gears 1 and 2, acceleration is more agressive, the turbo is more responsive but I feel like I have less power in the top gears. It may be all in my head as the boost gauge goes to the same point as it did before the mod, however this is the factory gauge so not too sure..

neapleaze
26th April 2004, 09:18 PM
OH NO GOT MY FIRST PROBLEM with this new technique.... i dont know what it is.. but my check engine light went on... i will see in detail what this is... if theres any reason to why.. or if someone knows? please let me know.. if not i have to find that new hose and bring it in with my warranty still in tact?

oslowley
26th April 2004, 09:48 PM
my check engine has been on for a few days now so I can't comment but the cars without software work are more finnicky about what they will and will not accept.

Castor Troy
26th April 2004, 11:06 PM
If I'm understanding what you're doing correctly, won't doing this mod to an already PPC'd car give EXTREME boost? I mean, the PPC is already opening the wastegate at a higher boost than normal, so you'd be increasing that even further. I wouldn't do it without a real boost gauge (not the one in the dash), and I'd be pretty f'ing careful. The dealership could give you funny looks if you cracked a piston and asked them to warrenty it.....

neapleaze
26th April 2004, 11:32 PM
Good news.. found out why my check engine light went on... it was because my turbo was boosting way too much, and usually it wasnt supposed to read as mcuh... ive put a smaller 3/16 T on instead of using a 1/4 im now using a 1/8, not as much power... but hopefully it will go away? or will it? and someone made a comment about the vacuum gas cap leak? no i didnt cut that hose.. i cut the asperator, im sorry to hear about that problem though... my problem was merely i was pushing way too much boost without an electronic boost controller... maybe i should invest? or investigate more...

and no i didnt get any power loss... if anythign i got lots of acceleration power

Liquid Calm
26th April 2004, 11:59 PM
Couple of things here…..

First off I would advise using a real boost gauge not the stock one. With the stock one you have no idea how much boost you are running. If you have no idea how much boost you are running how can you know if it is a safe amount….well when your motor lets go I guess you will know.

Second I would install an EGT gauge to keep an eye on what is going on inside your motor. This way if you start to run lean you will know and can avoid damaging the motor.

Problem is with this vacuum “T” method you could be leaning things out in the motor quite a bit. I would hate to see you lean out your motor…..start to detonate and fracture a piston, or break a connecting rod, or at the least end up with a blown head gasket.

A 2 or 3 psi increase is probably ok I am sure the ecu can deal by adding fuel and adjusting timing. Problem with the vacuum tube “T” method is you have no way of adjusting the boost to a safe level. If you run to much boost on an otherwise stock motor you are just asking for trouble. More boost needs more fuel, i.e. bigger injectors and proper ecu tuning. There is more boost within safe reason but without proper monitoring how do you know if you are running “safe” boost?

BSR has done the tuning and knows what a safe boost level is. They have also programmed in the appropriate fuel and timing maps. I would just play it safe and buy a PPC the tuning has already been done. Otherwise I would not mess with the boost unless you have a way to monitor what is going on and have a good idea of how to tune a car.

Sorry for the long post just don’t want to see you damage your motor. :D

neapleaze
27th April 2004, 12:19 AM
thank you, that makes a lot more sense now. :cry: atleast from what i know i better get right on it and fix this thing, fun for the time being... :)

RED
27th April 2004, 01:17 AM
What a thread. :o The problem with the "try-it-and-see" school of performance tuning is that you have to EXPECT TO BREAK SOMETHING. But, sheesh, take a few simple steps to minimize the risk. Instead I read of: No engine diagnostics, not even a calibrated boost gauge? Testing on the street, no dyno? No way to track what is gained and what is lost by any particular tweak? A hint of "well, if I break it, can I cover up MY mistake so the dealer will repair it under warranty?"?

Sheesh! Not the way I tune a car. But to each his own, I suppose.

oslowley
27th April 2004, 01:44 AM
I have a boost gauge in my garage somewhere, I intend to install it tomorrow and see how much more boost this mod adds, I doubt however that it will exeed the fuel requirements of the stock system assuming we all use 93 octane or higher, as i said before I don't feel much of an increase in the higher gears but there is more available power in gears 1 and 2. I know it is a crude modification but after the ppc and the drop in filter I still wanted more grunt in the low gears, I ordered a Dawes MBC and an A/F meter, not necesarilly to increase boost but to improve turbo spool up time, this along with the BSR exhaust (waiting 3wks now) should get me where I want to be. Good advice Red, a bit preachy but good advice nevertheless.

RED
27th April 2004, 01:56 AM
Sorry if I got on my soapbox, but I smell disaster brewing in some of the above posts. You know what I mean. Untested assumptions are an engraved invite for ol'Murphy to come and visit. Hey, I did my time learning the hard way too, I know him well :cheesy: ... but on a brand new car? Ouch.

So what did I learn the hard way? Method; tune with engine diagnostic tools; establish a dyno baseline and a do a new run with every signicant tweak; and that the seat of most peoples pants (mine included) lie like dogs 8)

neapleaze
27th April 2004, 02:02 AM
I just got my asperator hose replaced... hopefully my check engine light will go off... i guess my friends car S4... did the same thign and he put a E-Boost controller on his car and it went away... so im thinking of waiting the days till it goes away? (asking someone if it will or not or do i need to do something in order for it to go away) if not i am taking it in... rmemeber i only put this on yesterday... drove it about 20 miles... with the T (Disaster) but hopefully things will come true and all will be fine.. please if anyone knows how to fix the check engine light, or if theres anything i could do to make it go away.. let me know... thanks everyone

RED
27th April 2004, 02:23 AM
If I were you, I would really want to know WHY the check engine light came on. Perhaps an independent SAAB mechanic with the proper scanner to read the codes. That is what I would do.

M4Gunner
27th April 2004, 03:59 AM
Good news.. found out why my check engine light went on... it was because my turbo was boosting way too much, and usually it wasnt supposed to read as mcuh... ive put a smaller 3/16 T on instead of using a 1/4 im now using a 1/8, not as much power... but hopefully it will go away? or will it? and someone made a comment about the vacuum gas cap leak? no i didnt cut that hose.. i cut the asperator, im sorry to hear about that problem though... my problem was merely i was pushing way too much boost without an electronic boost controller... maybe i should invest? or investigate more...

and no i didnt get any power loss... if anythign i got lots of acceleration power

how did you find out that you were getting too much boost?

SS
27th April 2004, 06:33 AM
how did you find out that you were getting too much boost?

Exactly, i was thinking the same thing! Cause the factory boost gauge aint that accurate!

so im thinking of waiting the days till it goes away?

Mmmmmmmm. As RED mentioned, you are asking for it!! I would suggest you return everything back to normal and then we'll see how the check engine light will turn off. 8) This car is controlled by software. Any changes to it are done by software. So it wouldnt be wise to tamper around with the hardware without modifying your software, but then again, its your car :cheesy:

Edit: The best thing you can do: Return everything back to normal and then take it in.

pjku79
27th April 2004, 10:28 AM
i think i might be the boostvalve one just so i have the option to adjust it. plus its only $40.
Might want to contact the guy who runs that site/business and see if he knows about the new 9-3. His site shows he takes a lot of pride in his product.

i emailed the guy but no response yet.

pjku79
27th April 2004, 10:49 AM
I have a boost gauge in my garage somewhere, I intend to install it tomorrow and see how much more boost this mod adds, I doubt however that it will exeed the fuel requirements of the stock system assuming we all use 93 octane or higher, as i said before I don't feel much of an increase in the higher gears but there is more available power in gears 1 and 2. I know it is a crude modification but after the ppc and the drop in filter I still wanted more grunt in the low gears, I ordered a Dawes MBC and an A/F meter, not necesarilly to increase boost but to improve turbo spool up time, this along with the BSR exhaust (waiting 3wks now) should get me where I want to be. Good advice Red, a bit preachy but good advice nevertheless.

I agree with everything you say. I plan on doing the same when I have some money to put into this car (too many toys). But, why did you go with Dawes MBC? Be sure to post the results of your boost gauge.

ctrlz
27th April 2004, 10:57 AM
how did you find out that you were getting too much boost?

Exactly, i was thinking the same thing! Cause the factory boost gauge aint that accurate!


The engine light doesn't necessarily mean the ECM knows the boost pressure is too high. Maybe, but I'd wager the increased boost pressure caused detonation, and the knock sensor picked it up. In that case, the ECM retarded the timing, and threw a code (and an idiot light). That's a performance killer right there. And it might take a bit for the ECM to allow the timing to advance back to where it was.

If you look back at that article from autospeed where they tweaked the S4, you'll see they GRADUALLY reduced the signal to the wastegate actuator. You probably only have 10-20% leeway to play with to increase boost. After that, you probably need different ECM settings. The way they tweaked the S4 was to slowly get that boost up a tad over factory spec, then use the relief valve to provide rapid (rather than gradual) opening of the wastegate.

Personally, I think the approach taken in the autospeed article is relatively safe. I need to take that cowl off the engine and see how everything's hooked up. I'm very interested to see how the factory boost controller gets its signal (turbo outlet pressure, intake manifold pressure, or BOTH). I also want to see if SAAB has used any in-line restrictors.

I think this car is safely tunable as long as you don't go too high on the boost. It is probably necessary to keep a signal feed to the factory boost controller to prevent the pesky "check engine light." But, like I said above, the ECM can also figure out if there are turbo problems in other ways. You would need to download the codes to see what's really being reported.

If anyone has pictures or schematics of how things are hooked up, please post them.

ctrlz
27th April 2004, 11:12 AM
Here's a diagram of how I imagine thinks work in the 9-3. See the first diagram.
Turbo outlet goes through restrictor to wastegate actuator.
Actuator vent goes to factory boost controller (simple solenoid valve controlled by pulses from the ECM).
Note how it says the ECU does not monitor pressure, but blindly cycles the solenoid at a mapped rate. I'd bet dollars to donuts that's how it works in the 9-3.
http://www.rx7turboturbo.com/robrobinette/boost_controller.htm

Here's another parts place:
http://home.att.net/~teaguesauto/boost.htm

pjku79
27th April 2004, 11:24 AM
im starting to like the dual stage boost controler, cause i dont need all the performance all the time. it would be nice to get extra boost just from the flip of a switch.

ctrlz
27th April 2004, 11:49 AM
im starting to like the dual stage boost controler, cause i dont need all the performance all the time. it would be nice to get extra boost just from the flip of a switch.

Best prices I could find, so far:
http://www.importboostasylumm.com/turbo_xs

The Turbo XS HP boost controller incorporates both the relief valve (to prevent wastegate creep) and a bleed (to increase boost pressure):
http://www.importboostasylumm.com/inc/pdetail?v=1&pid=1160

Exactly what they did to the S4, but in a nicer package!

Do ya think if I inform them there's only one "m" in "asylum" I'll get a discount :-?? :lol:

ctrlz
27th April 2004, 12:06 PM
Here's a pic of an installed valve (got the pic from an ebay listing). This is a Turbo XS standard boost controller, a simple adjustable bleed valve which increases boost, but doesn't address wastegate creep. I'm guessing the actuator on the Saab also has a vent pipe which runs to the boost control solenoid.

M4Gunner
27th April 2004, 12:35 PM
im starting to like the dual stage boost controler, cause i dont need all the performance all the time. it would be nice to get extra boost just from the flip of a switch.

it wouldnt be worth your while. the first stage would be what you have now, and the second stage would be only 2-3 psi higher, due to the DAMN ECU THAT IM STARTING TO HATE!!
its more for cars w/o such a picky ECU. however, once someone figures out a way around it for our cars, i agree, i would be cool! :wink:

pjku79
27th April 2004, 01:03 PM
Ok can i get some clarification. This is my first turbo car so i dont know what all the terms mean or do. The relief valve prevents wastegate creep. What is wastegate creep? Does it effect torbo lag? And it sounds like the bleed valve is where you actually change the boost pressure boost pressure.

I also read this,
One thing to watch out for is there has to be a way to bleed off pressure in between the valve and the wastegate actuator, or the wastgate will never close once it's opened.

The system with the pressure regulator downstream of the PRV uses a special kind of regulator which will bleed down. This is NOT the standard type used for air compressors. The product offered by boostvalve probably incorporates a tiny bleed hole somewhere.


Do most of these systems account for this?
It sounds like if this significantly reduced turbo lag and doesn't hurt anything it would be worth it, even if it didn't increase boost. That is my #1 complaint, turbo lag.

M4Gunner
27th April 2004, 01:26 PM
i would read the links that ctrlz posted earlier in the thread. theyre pretty informative, and will answer the questions you have.

ctrlz
27th April 2004, 01:52 PM
Ok can i get some clarification. This is my first turbo car so i dont know what all the terms mean or do. The relief valve prevents wastegate creep. What is wastegate creep? Does it affect turbo lag? And it sounds like the bleed valve is where you actually change the boost pressure.

Do most of these systems account for this?
It sounds like if this significantly reduced turbo lag and doesn't hurt anything it would be worth it, even if it didn't increase boost. That is my #1 complaint, turbo lag.

My first turbo car, too.

The relief valve system, like the one offered by boostvalve addresses wastegate creep. Normally, as boost pressure builds, the wastegate starts to partially open, which actually REDUCES boost pressure. So, yes, wastegate creep is part of turbo lag.

A relief valve can also increase boost, if you install a spring tuned to open at higher pressure than stock. But when the relief valve opens, the wastgate actuator ges the full, instantaneous pressure. Having a bleed valve between the relief valve and the actuator reduces that pressure build-up on the actuator. The regulator goes a step further, and actually sets a ceiling on the pressure that can get to the wastegate actuator. Both these valve types will keep the wastegate from opening quickly, causing a sudden drop in boost pressure.

I haven't driven one, but I'm guessing a car with only a pressure relief valve that was set significantly higher than stock boost would give undesirable transitions in power when the wastegate flew open.

So, if you just want to reduce lag, you could consider a PRV set close to the max boost pressure. E-mail the guy at boostvalve and see what he says.

I think stock boost pressures are 0.9 bar for the little "t" cars, and 1.0 bar for the big "T". Somebody correct me if I'm wrong.

ctrlz
27th April 2004, 03:16 PM
Here's an ebay item. This valve incorporates a PRV and a bleed. His description of wastegate operation is a bit off, but the valve will probably function identical to the Turbo XS High Performance Boost Controller, at less than half the cost.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2475601458

M4Gunner
27th April 2004, 04:15 PM
I think stock boost pressures are 0.9 bar for the little "t" cars, and 1.0 bar for the big "T". Somebody correct me if I'm wrong.

nope, .7 for the "t" and .85 for the "T"

pjku79
27th April 2004, 04:18 PM
check this guys ebay item out, he promotes boost spikes.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=33742&item=2475038087&rd=1

ctrlz
27th April 2004, 05:47 PM
I have a boost gauge in my garage somewhere, I intend to install it tomorrow and see how much more boost this mod adds, I doubt however that it will exeed the fuel requirements of the stock system assuming we all use 93 octane or higher, as i said before I don't feel much of an increase in the higher gears but there is more available power in gears 1 and 2. I know it is a crude modification but after the ppc and the drop in filter I still wanted more grunt in the low gears, I ordered a Dawes MBC and an A/F meter, not necesarilly to increase boost but to improve turbo spool up time, this along with the BSR exhaust (waiting 3wks now) should get me where I want to be. Good advice Red, a bit preachy but good advice nevertheless.
I'm considering the air/fuel and boost gauges, too. Where are you going with yours-- A-pillar? Not sure I like that, but seems a popular choice.

M4Gunner
27th April 2004, 06:27 PM
yeah, im not too keen on the A arm either,(seems a little too ricey for me. im the "anti-rice") but there arent a whole lot of other choices. i have a groovy idea for a boost guage, but if i do a fuel as well, it wouldnt work there, cuz i want to keep them together.

ctrlz
27th April 2004, 09:04 PM
yeah, im not too keen on the A arm either,(seems a little too ricey for me. im the "anti-rice") but there arent a whole lot of other choices. i have a groovy idea for a boost guage, but if i do a fuel as well, it wouldnt work there, cuz i want to keep them together.

A quick gander around the cockpit on the drive home and...well, looks like the best spot is the A-pillar. Haven't had that trim off, but looks like you could easily pop it. I would run wires underneath and maybe configure a clamp that grabs the edges of the trim. I really don't want to drill it, as I plan on tweaking things, and then ditching the gauges (leaving the wires in place). At least that's my CURRENT idea. There are some nice gauges I might be able to live with long term.

What I really need to do is drug the wife, so I can spend THOUSANDS on these upgrades, rather than the hundreds I figure I can get away with :cry:

oslowley
27th April 2004, 09:42 PM
just leave it on the outside of the car and use the windshield wiper to hold it down, that is if it's onlt temporary.

Viscouse
27th April 2004, 11:23 PM
yeah, im not too keen on the A arm either,(seems a little too ricey for me. im the "anti-rice") but there arent a whole lot of other choices. i have a groovy idea for a boost guage, but if i do a fuel as well, it wouldnt work there, cuz i want to keep them together.
A quick gander around the cockpit on the drive home and...well, looks like the best spot is the A-pillar.
I would seriously reconsider using the A-pillar as a place to mount ANYTHING. There is an airbag in there. While actually mounting it will not be a problem, if you do find a need for it's protection, you will find the performance of it's design greatly compromised. The trim will not come off as designed, will interfere with the inflation of the airbag, and who knows what happens after that.

It's your car, and your life, but just some friendly advice.

Saba
27th April 2004, 11:55 PM
Probably end up with a gauge firmly planted in your dial. :o

M4Gunner
28th April 2004, 04:55 AM
Neapleaze, any info on the CEL? is it still on?

pjku79
28th April 2004, 09:04 AM
yeah, im not too keen on the A arm either,(seems a little too ricey for me. im the "anti-rice") but there arent a whole lot of other choices. i have a groovy idea for a boost guage, but if i do a fuel as well, it wouldnt work there, cuz i want to keep them together.
A quick gander around the cockpit on the drive home and...well, looks like the best spot is the A-pillar.
I would seriously reconsider using the A-pillar as a place to mount ANYTHING. There is an airbag in there. While actually mounting it will not be a problem, if you do find a need for it's protection, you will find the performance of it's design greatly compromised. The trim will not come off as designed, will interfere with the inflation of the airbag, and who knows what happens after that.

It's your car, and your life, but just some friendly advice.


not exactly sure how this side airbag works but i would bet that it comes out of the head liner like most other cars. the only want to check that out is to pull the a-pillar off though.

ctrlz
28th April 2004, 10:30 AM
not exactly sure how this side airbag works but i would bet that it comes out of the head liner like most other cars. the only want to check that out is to pull the a-pillar off though.

Doesn't look that way. If you pry along the rear edge, which can be easily moved, you can see the bag curled up in there. My bet is the bag just shoots through that slit when deployed, and the trim barely moves. It might also be clipped/hinged at the front, and swing out of the way.

I got a thread going in the workshop. We'll see how it all works :)

pjku79
28th April 2004, 11:33 AM
i guess we will have to see if anyone has had one depoly yet.

RED
28th April 2004, 01:24 PM
It might also be clipped/hinged at the front, and swing out of the way.

Not a chance, No way, No how

:nono; :o :nono; :o :nono;

A few lonely "voices of reason" are being drowned out by some really bad ideas. So my 2cents:

Some of you out there need to ask yourself a few questions. "Do I have any idea how fast a airbag deploys? How much force is involved?" Short answer - The only reason the bag does not kill you (usually, though this can happen under some very unusual circumstances) is the VERY CAREFULLY CALIBRATED duration and acceleration curve of the deployment vs. mass of the bag itself.

So one of two things is going to happen.

The air bag will deploy, blowing aside the pillar trim which, before it was BUTCHERED, was carefully engineered to NOT become a lethal projectile. The results will be found in the obituary column of your local paper. Of course, it might not be the driver that column is written about. It might miss you, and kill your passenger.

Or, it will not deploy at all. But it will try, and those results may also be lethal. Or not.

Only extensive engineering tests will tell you what will happen. Anyone here feel qualified to do those tests? Feel ready to write a post so authoritative that your advice will be absoulutely certain not to kill some poor boob that decides "hey, that sounds cool."?

Find somewhere else for the gauge, guys. Come on, we're an inventive group.

pjku79
28th April 2004, 05:17 PM
i agree if it comes out of the a-pillar i wouldnt mess with it. but, if it comes out the headliner it wouldnt cause a problem as long as you dont mess up the wiring.

neapleaze
28th April 2004, 09:39 PM
SO i brought my car in... luckily they fixed it and my warranty is still in tact... what happened was my computer read that my BOOST PRESSURE SOlOINOID needed to be replaced... thats GOOD NEWS!!! no more backyard antics like that again... next thing i am getting ECU. :lol:

ctrlz
28th April 2004, 09:49 PM
i agree if it comes out of the a-pillar i wouldnt mess with it. but, if it comes out the headliner it wouldnt cause a problem as long as you dont mess up the wiring.
Took a look. It comes out the A-pillar slit. The bag extends down pretty far, about even with the bottom of the mirror controls. That doesn't leave much bag-free area to work with.

RED and 93-4me both have valid points, though I always hate to presume too much. Afterall, engineers who design cars don't do everything right the first (or second) time. Time factors are a bit more critical in side impact, though. There's less space to the side of your head than to the front. The system decides on deployment in ~40 msec and deploys in ~20 msec. So any mod that obstructs the bag even slightly might be a problem.

If I can borrow the soapbox that seems to be making the rounds for just a minute, I would like to point out that what we are really talking about is relative risk. While there is risk involved with potentially impeding safety features, there is also risk in increasing performance in general. There are people running PPC who are getting ESP warnings on a semi-regular basis, if I'm not mistaken. I don't doubt for one second that increasing turbo boost on this car (particularly with a manual controller) will make for a less stable ride, and compromise safety. Mounting gauges that are meant to be studied SPECIFICALLY at WOT isn't particularly safe either. So what's the greater risk-- mounting eye-level gauges which might affect airbag deployment, or mounting gauges down by the ashtray and STARING at those while flooring it?

For me, I'm only considering mounting gauges for intermittent, short durations. So I don't think there is a simple answer to the above question. For the long term, if you want supplemental gauges, I would agree the A-pillar is NOT the spot.

Saba
28th April 2004, 10:10 PM
I agree with your comments on relative risk. But I will just take the opportunity to clarify one point about the PPC
There are people running PPC who are getting ESP warnings on a semi-regular basis, if I'm not mistaken. The ESP warnings only occur during the actual update process, not while driving the car.

oslowley
28th April 2004, 10:19 PM
SO i brought my car in... luckily they fixed it and my warranty is still in tact... what happened was my computer read that my BOOST PRESSURE SOlOINOID needed to be replaced... thats GOOD NEWS!!! no more backyard antics like that again... next thing i am getting ECU. :lol:


i am that there was nothing wrong with the solenoid, the car just read a lot of boost and threw the code, simple reset would have cured all. On the airbag topic it would behoove you all to heed the moderators advice, leave it alone, leave it alone, leave it alone. those things can cause serious damage not only from the impact but also from the gun-powder burns.

ctrlz
29th April 2004, 09:48 AM
those things can cause serious damage not only from the impact but also from the gun-powder burns.

Both of which are well-established side effects of normal, "successful" deployment:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=11807463
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=7755203

pjku79
29th April 2004, 10:16 AM
if you check out the thread i posted the other day about this airbag topic it was confirmed that the side bag come out of the headliner and the a-pillar so i would agree to stay away from that area unless you want to get hit with a gauge sized bullet on impact.