2.0t PPC Dyno Chart [Archive] - SaabCentral Forums

: 2.0t PPC Dyno Chart


Saba
13th April 2004, 05:54 AM
Here is my dyno chart showing before and after PPC. I did a power run with the PPC on first, returned ECU to factory settings, went for a 40 minute drive and returned to have the stock dyno done. The stock dyno came out within 0.4 hp of an earlier dyno I had done a few weeks back. This would suggest the PPC has an immediate effect.

http://members.iinet.net.au/~mmo/images/ppc%20dyno.jpg

So in a nutshell...

Hp Gains 145 => 176.3 = 31.3hp
Torque 176 ftlb (238 Nm) => 210 ftlb (284 Nm) = 34 ftlb (46 Nm)

The HP is about 2.3hp more than the 29 claimed by BSR. BONUS! :D
Torque is right on the money.

These are all at the wheel values, so it appears ALL the gains promised by BSR are delivered fully to the wheels. :D

If the 2.0t is putting out 175 HP at the crank (and I strongly suspect that is the case based on earlier power runs), then the 2.0t with PPC will be putting out about 206-207 HP at the crank. Add a couple for the sports filter ( I was shown some dyno charts that show this) and you are (I am) looking at about 208-209 HP. Aero territory! at a fraction of the price!

Bottom line, the BSR PPC delivers what it claims (and maybe more). Bothe the chassis and *** dyno confirm this. Excellent bang for your buck.

SS
13th April 2004, 06:03 AM
Very interesting Saba. Good to see the graph posted. Its nice to see that your car gained what BSR promised. Now is there an effect on the car being dynoed? Any side effects or danger?

Saba
13th April 2004, 06:14 AM
Very interesting Saba. Good to see the graph posted. Its nice to see that your car gained what BSR promised. Now is there an effect on the car being dynoed? Any side effects or danger? No real danger. The car is revved to almost redline in third gear for a few seconds. Whole run takes about 30 seconds. Hand brake on, rear wheels chocked and tied down, its going no where. I was a bit hesistent initially about doing the dyno, but I was quite comfortable with the whole procedure.

DrBoost
13th April 2004, 10:55 AM
Hej !

Interesting to see that stock s/w is actually slightly stronger between 1800-2400 rpm.
Compared BSR chart against your chart ?
Any corrections ? (temperature / baro / humidity)

Saba
13th April 2004, 11:07 AM
Hej !

Interesting to see that stock s/w is actually slightly stronger between 1800-2400 rpm.
Compared BSR chart against your chart ?
Any corrections ? (temperature / baro / humidity)BSR doesn't have a chart available (well I can't seem to find one anyway). Adjustments where made for atmospheric conditions. I had the stock setup done 4 times now and they all came in within 1.5 HP of each other.

Both runs above where done 40 minutes apart.

I never noticed the 1800-2400 difference. Interesting.

joshd2012
13th April 2004, 12:25 PM
Thanks for posting your dyno charts. It is much appreciated by all at the forum.

LinearSLT
13th April 2004, 12:25 PM
Saba,

Thanks for the scientific approach to testing the PPC. I for one was comfortable with the PPC purchase for my 2003 Linear, and this is just icing on the cake. And a vendor like BSR who delivers what they say, and even more, is one that should be congratulated.

A few people have noted that turbo lag is more with the BSR. Your curves show that indeed, there could be a perception of such, as the car is indeed a bit weaker in that 2000 rpm range. I wonder why they did this ? Perceptually it makes the huge rush above 2500 even more heady. So maybe this was the reason, to make the butt dyno feel the push. Certainly Saabs don't keep their wheels planted with lots of torque in the low rpms, and they may have also decided that this was a better way to keep the wheels planted. If they increased the low end torque, the wheels would start spinning and waste all of that extra torque.

One question. Do you disable the TCS when you do the dyno run ? I would think that if you did not, you might get the torque reduction seen in the plots too ? After all the TCS has to think the fronts are slipping as the rear wheels are blocked, right ?

Saba
13th April 2004, 12:27 PM
ESP/TCS was off. Interesting point about the "turbo lag" LinearSLT. The charts do suggest such. I think I will send this chart to BSR and see if they can comment.

DrBoost
13th April 2004, 05:35 PM
Hej !

Saba>>
Tnx for the responce, surprised that BSR doesn't hava a dyno chart. I kind of expected that...

Being honest, so far I have not driven a BSR "manipulated" SS nor have I seen the calibration data, yet.
I've heard a lot of stuff (nice and not so nice), but, you know, some people just are so full of sh-t. I'll wait for the facts.

Stefan
13th April 2004, 06:14 PM
Hej !

Saba>>
Tnx for the responce, surprised that BSR doesn't hava a dyno chart. I kind of expected that...

Being honest, so far I have not driven a BSR "manipulated" SS nor have I seen the calibration data, yet.
I've heard a lot of stuff (nice and not so nice), but, you know, some people just are so full of sh-t. I'll wait for the facts.

Stefan: Are You searching for this?
http://www.bsrab.se/2k4/products.php?art=t1&n3=54

Or this?
http://www.bsrab.se/se/1_trimsatser_saab.php?show_trimsats=209

This have bean on our site for more than ½Year. Sorry for not in English....But You Dr Boost, I think You can read swedish?:o

Teck_II
13th April 2004, 07:44 PM
One question about ppc sory to hijack your thread.

Is the ppc only for arc's and linear's? Or do they make one for aero's also?

Castor Troy
13th April 2004, 08:09 PM
They do sell an Aero PPC.

Another question, for anybody that's driven a linear with the PPC and an arc/aero without the PPC, how would you compare the two?

Saba
13th April 2004, 10:05 PM
They do sell an Aero PPC.

Another question, for anybody that's driven a linear with the PPC and an arc/aero without the PPC, how would you compare the two?The 2.0t with the PPC feels like it has a LOT more go in the 0-100km range. Didn't drive the Aero above 120kmh. Damn dealer sitting in the car next to me. But its been a few months since I drove an Aero, so my memory may be a bit flakey.

Saba
13th April 2004, 10:09 PM
Hej !

Saba>>
Tnx for the responce, surprised that BSR doesn't hava a dyno chart. I kind of expected that...

Being honest, so far I have not driven a BSR "manipulated" SS nor have I seen the calibration data, yet.
I've heard a lot of stuff (nice and not so nice), but, you know, some people just are so full of sh-t. I'll wait for the facts.

Stefan: Are You searching for this?
http://www.bsrab.se/2k4/products.php?art=t1&n3=54

Or this?
http://www.bsrab.se/se/1_trimsatser_saab.php?show_trimsats=209

This have bean on our site for more than ½Year. Sorry for not in English....But You Dr Boost, I think You can read swedish?:oThanks Stefan, but they are really just photoshop mockups of crank HP and torque and for the 1.8t (which I know is the same as the 2.0t). Do you know how the values were obtained, were they measured or derived from wheel dynos?

mrjones
15th April 2004, 05:00 AM
Saba's dyno shows that the PPC tuning gives less HP and torque than the stock software from 1800rpm to 2400rpm.
BSR's 9-3SS PPC charts start at 2500rpm. All other BSR charts I've seen start at 2000rpm. I wonder if this is a coincidence...

pjku79
15th April 2004, 11:07 AM
why would they make it worse for that rpm range? correct me if im wrong but doesnt the computer adjust boost, fuel map, and air flow for all rpm's. i know the race truck i worked on for gm we could adjust a lot of stuff (wasnt turbo though). seems like they could leave it as what it was for certain rpm and adjust it for better after that.

Saba
15th April 2004, 11:38 AM
I think there is a degree of variation to be allowed here. Dynos are not consistent (although I did 3 runs with the PPC and 2 with stock and in all cases the PPC underperformed the stock in that range). I have sent my charts to BSR and have asked them to comment. Perhaps this is the type of changes they make with their PPC "upgrades".

Sol
19th April 2004, 06:09 AM
Hello,
I am a new member on this site. But I am a :P great supporter of SAAB, have my nr. 7 now.
Anyway I follow the debate around the PPC. I used before both BSR and Nordic. On mye last car 9-3 SS 1,8 T Vector I have Hirsch step 2.The car is going very smooth no turbo lag at all.
This is the dyno chart.
[/url][/img]

pjku79
19th April 2004, 08:43 AM
Hello,
I am a new member on this site. But I am a :P great supporter of SAAB, have my nr. 7 now.
Anyway I follow the debate around the PPC. I used before both BSR and Nordic. On mye last car 9-3 SS 1,8 T Vector I have Hirsch step 2.The car is going very smooth no turbo lag at all.
This is the dyno chart.
[/url][/img]

Wow great news, but could you please post the chart again it didn't work.

Sol
19th April 2004, 08:47 AM
I am afraid I don't know how I can do this.
Could you help, the graf is on *.doc file.

aeroild
20th April 2004, 03:18 AM
I am afraid I don't know how I can do this.
Could you help, the graf is on *.doc file.


Here's the above mentioned Hirsch dyno chart:
http://www.arildlangseth.com/hirsch_dyno.jpg

pjku79
20th April 2004, 09:16 AM
I am afraid I don't know how I can do this.
Could you help, the graf is on *.doc file.


Here's the above mentioned Hirsch dyno chart:
http://www.arildlangseth.com/hirsch_dyno.jpg

Can you explain what is what? My german isn't that good.

pjku79
20th April 2004, 09:20 AM
also what is the origional kW and Nm on a 1.8l vector? Those aren't sold in the US so im not familiar with those.

Dave N
20th April 2004, 03:36 PM
The 1.8t model has 150 bhp as standard. the 2.0t is rated at 175 bhp similsr charts to these can be seen on PFS website (albeit the ones BSR have produced themselves). The charts should give you the info you require.

pjku79
20th April 2004, 03:57 PM
Ok, i could be wrong but it looks like this dyno is saying the 1.8l is going from 150bhp to 222.6 (166kW) and the torque is going from less then 195 lb-ft (my 2.0 linear) to 260.4 lb-ft (353Nm).

That seems pretty damn good, too good. way too good, specially if thats at the week. id pay good money for that kind of performance.

moz
20th April 2004, 06:31 PM
Speaking of which, I looked at the Hirsch performance upgrade for the 2.0T (Aero) and while reporting an increase to 252bhp I noticed that the 0-60 time had been cut to 6.5s [from 7.5] for the manual and 6.6 for the auto! [from 9.0] that has to be an error!.

http://www.hirsch-performance.ch/pdf/9-3SSAero252PS2.pdf

pjku79
20th April 2004, 06:33 PM
somethings not right

sjhudon
20th April 2004, 06:34 PM
Well the originial is not in the 9.0's so it is certainly an error.

aeroild
21st April 2004, 03:46 AM
Ok, i could be wrong but it looks like this dyno is saying the 1.8l is going from 150bhp to 222.6 (166kW) and the torque is going from less then 195 lb-ft (my 2.0 linear) to 260.4 lb-ft (353Nm).

That seems pretty damn good, too good. way too good, specially if thats at the week. id pay good money for that kind of performance.

I'm no expert in reading dyno charts or German :o , but I do know the following.

First, the 1.8t is in fact a 2.0l engine similar to the 175bhp version. The only difference is in the software.

Second, the Hirsch step 2 includes new injectors and a new air filter housing and of course a software update.

With those modifications I think 210bhp (official figure) would be well within reach.

Finally, Hirsch tuning isn't exactly cheap, so I think you would have to pay good money :cheesy:

pjku79
21st April 2004, 09:29 AM
yea i just noticed they want like 3500 for it....yikes.

Dave N
21st April 2004, 09:51 AM
Aeroild is correct. the 1.8t is a 1.8 in badge only. it shares the identical engine gearbox running gear with the 2.0t models. The 1.8t is effectivly detuned (via the ecu software to 150bhp the 2.0t has 175 bhp as standard.

PJKU79, As they are ostensibly the same, applying something like a PPC upgrade to both models means you end up the same power output(204 BHP)and identical revised torque figures.

This means owners of the 1.8t get a 54 BHP increase whilst the 2.0t owners get a 29 BHP increase. As the software upgrade is the same price for both models, its a real bargain if you happen to have bought the 1.8t model. Its an upgrade I will be making to my 1.8t Vector as soon as funds allow.

Sol
21st April 2004, 10:21 AM
Since I am the owner of the car with Hirsch step 2 I like to make a statement.
It seems that most of the people on most of the SAAB forums are focused major on the price when tuning is discussed.
Well my self too to start with. But now after I've been trying most of the tuners I like to confirm that I ratter pay a little bit more but to get a car which is smooth to drive, no turbo lag, black exhaust and wear the sparks quickly.
This is a personal choice what you aspect from you car, subtle and smooth performance or only to get the Hp and torque increased.
For us who is living in Norway and pay a bunch of money to get a family should be important to get tuning which is reliable and can handled driving upon different conditions.
So I paid a little bit more for the first step to Hirsch than I will get PPC for. But not that mach so I will get economical problems.
The upgrade to step 2 cost more because I purchased an injector for Aero. The local car shop installed for me. Than the filter box I mounted self, the new exhaust system I got it from BSR and mounted myself. Actually I paid more for the new parts that for the software from Hirsch and I have to tell I do not regret.
If you are looking the Dynochart you understand why. I will take acceleration time under different speed and we can compare with the people who have PPC both 2,0 T and Aero.

Agree?

Saba
25th April 2004, 03:44 AM
Well I can't find the data on the Step 2 by Hirsch for the 2.0t, but the Hirsch Step 1 seems to cost twice (1400 EU v 640 EU) as much for just over 2/3 the gain of the BSR (195/310 v 204/310) I'm sure the step 1 is basically the same as the BSR upgrade (all software changes). Plus it does not have the convenience of the BSR. BSR wins on price, performance and convenience. Hirsch wins on warranty (supposedly). Prices depend on your country I suppose. I would also have to pay twice as much duty on the Hirsch as I would the BSR, plus ship my ECM out to them. It's a no-brainer for me.

aeroild
25th April 2004, 06:03 PM
Well I can't find the data on the Step 2 by Hirsch for the 2.0t, but the Hirsch Step 1 seems to cost twice (1400 EU v 640 EU) as much for just over 2/3 the gain of the BSR (195/310 v 204/310) I'm sure the step 1 is basically the same as the BSR upgrade (all software changes). Plus it does not have the convenience of the BSR. BSR wins on price, performance and convenience. Hirsch wins on warranty (supposedly). Prices depend on your country I suppose. I would also have to pay twice as much duty on the Hirsch as I would the BSR, plus ship my ECM out to them. It's a no-brainer for me.

Yes, BSR wins on price and convenience. But I'm not sure on performance. And more importantly, driveability. I guess only a head-to-head test will give us the answer to which upgrade is the best.
Personally, I would choose Hirsch for a number of reasons, like warranty, their partnership with Saab and the fact that they get all their products TüV approved.

Btw, I think the price of the Hirsch step 1 upgrade is EUR 1100.

Saba
25th April 2004, 11:09 PM
Btw, I think the price of the Hirsch step 1 upgrade is EUR 1100.It is if you have a Hirsch installer handy, otherwise you have to pay the extra 300 EUR to send your ECM in to them (which is what I and many others would have to do).

aeroild
26th April 2004, 03:34 AM
It is if you have a Hirsch installer handy, otherwise you have to pay the extra 300 EUR to send your ECM in to them (which is what I and many others would have to do).

Are you sure?
The Hirsch website says that the price is EUR 1100 when programming the cars own ECM. The price EUR 1400 includes a new ECM.
EUR 300 seems a bit expensive for just sending in the ECM. :o

BTW, Hirsch 9-3SS products should now be available from Swedish dealers. More countries may follow.

Vector-SS
26th April 2004, 05:16 AM
honestly, i must agree with Saba. After tuning my car with BSR's PPC, i was more than delighted. The performance gains was tremendous, and the car seems so much more pleasurable to drive. I also do agree that as long as its still software programming, they pretty much went the same way. As for the pricing, Hirsch can pretty much justify their pricing with the warranty provided; on the other hand if BSR was sure about their products, why wouldnt they warranty it as well :roll: .....all in all i love my PPC 8)

Sol
26th April 2004, 06:32 AM
Ok I am again on.
Saba and Vector, did you ever try some other tuners than BSR ?
If not I don't think you can judge whatever BCR is the best one or not.
I had on my last 9-3 ( 2002 model ) car BCR step 2 and than installed Nordic step 2 . I got better driving .
Now I have Hirsch step 2 on my 9-3 SS and compare to how the car is I will go for Hirsch even is cost me more. Their tuning is based on hard driving on the Highways in Germany and against hard competition from German cars. Also and very important , satisfying the Euro 4 norm .

Saba
26th April 2004, 08:56 AM
I wasn't saying BSR was the best. It was the better one for me based on the factors that I considered important in choosing a tuner. Price is one, convenience was another and AVAILABILITY was the other. Hirsch and Nordic are not available to me. Even if it was available I doubt I would have paid double for what is basically the same thing - a software upgrade. The algorithms are the same. Its only a matter of changing a few variables in the program. Step 2 may be a different story though.

Saba
26th April 2004, 09:02 AM
It is if you have a Hirsch installer handy, otherwise you have to pay the extra 300 EUR to send your ECM in to them (which is what I and many others would have to do).

Are you sure?
The Hirsch website says that the price is EUR 1100 when programming the cars own ECM. The price EUR 1400 includes a new ECM.
EUR 300 seems a bit expensive for just sending in the ECM. :o

Well it may be another ECM that is sent out. Still I would have to pay for that as I can't really drive to Sweden to get it done. I would also have to find someone to install it, my $aab dealer? : Add the cost of installation to the 1400 EUR. Price isn't everything, but you have to draw the line somewhere.

Sol
26th April 2004, 09:36 AM
Saba,
To remove and install ECU toke me only 10 min work.
I don't understand that they charge you as mach as 300 EURO for a small package of 400 gr.The box is that small.
I send often packages from Norway to Sydney which is 30 - 35 kg and TNT charge me 400 EUR.

About the software, it is not the same believe me. I've been trying 4 different supliers of software for SAAB and I have to tell it is not same. I drive everyyear at list one time trough all the Europe, 3300 km for 2,5 days allmost non stopp. So it is very important the tuning program because they perform different.

aeroild
26th April 2004, 10:20 AM
The algorithms are the same. Its only a matter of changing a few variables in the program.

Yes, but both BSR and Hirsch have used months to make a good tuning program and the results may differ a lot.


Well it may be another ECM that is sent out. Still I would have to pay for that as I can't really drive to Sweden to get it done. I would also have to find someone to install it, my $aab dealer? : Add the cost of installation to the 1400 EUR. Price isn't everything, but you have to draw the line somewhere.

You can drive to Sweden. That's no distance for a Saab :D

My point is that the Hirsch price is EUR 1100. Your specific costs to get the upgrade from Hirsch may be higher, but the price is still EUR 1100.

Vector-SS
26th April 2004, 03:22 PM
Its not about trying different companies or not. Personally, if i was to pay somewhere around 3100 for a tuning, i would definately still be stock. As Saba said, it was just a lot more convenient, and the thought of sending ECU's across the world just did not ring my bell. But maybe someone in your area should still consider a comparison. :D

Vector-SS
26th April 2004, 10:39 PM
When i checked the Hirsch website, i noticed that the stage 2 modification mentioned at the bottom right consisted of: Software upgrade ECM T8, intercooler, stainless Steel-Exhaust-System from catalyst on. I always thought it was still software upgrade even for stage 2. am i missing something?

aeroild
27th April 2004, 03:36 AM
When i checked the Hirsch website, i noticed that the stage 2 modification mentioned at the bottom right consisted of: Software upgrade ECM T8, intercooler, stainless Steel-Exhaust-System from catalyst on. I always thought it was still software upgrade even for stage 2. am i missing something?

Most stage 2 upgrades for Saab seems to include software and cat back exhaust system. But I guess it's up to the tuner to compile a suitable package.

BSR stage 2 for the 9-3SS includes ECM upgrade and cat back system.

Hirsch stage 2 for the 1.8t/2.0t includes ECM upgrade, better injectors and a modified air filter housing. Hirsch stage 2 for the Aero includes ECM upgrade, cat back exhaust system and intercooler.

Saba
27th April 2004, 03:51 AM
When i checked the Hirsch website, i noticed that the stage 2 modification mentioned at the bottom right consisted of: Software upgrade ECM T8, intercooler, stainless Steel-Exhaust-System from catalyst on. I always thought it was still software upgrade even for stage 2. am i missing something?

Most stage 2 upgrades for Saab seems to include software and cat back exhaust system. But I guess it's up to the tuner to compile a suitable package.

BSR stage 2 for the 9-3SS includes ECM upgrade and cat back system.

Hirsch stage 2 for the 1.8t/2.0t includes ECM upgrade, better injectors and a modified air filter housing. Hirsch stage 2 for the Aero includes ECM upgrade, cat back exhaust system and intercooler.Do you have the performance specs for the Hirsch Step 2 for the 1.8t/2.0t?

aeroild
27th April 2004, 05:42 AM
Do you have the performance specs for the Hirsch Step 2 for the 1.8t/2.0t?

Hirsch step 2 (taken from a leaflet gotten from Hirsch at the Saab Turbo Club of Sweden meeting at Knutstorp 24 April):
210HP/330Nm

Ricky Lake
5th May 2004, 12:14 PM
Novice question, but looking through the performnace figures for the hirsch upgrade I was curious about the man vs. auto comparison figures...(looking at the aero vert stage 2 by the way)

Stock 0 - 100kmh figures are: man 8.0 auto 9.5 (difference of 1.5secs)
Step 2 0 - 100kmh figures are: man 6.9 auto 7.0 (difference of 0.1secs)

I would expect the gap between auto and manual to come down a bit, but that seems ridiculous (and if true then I'm very tempted as an auto driver...)

Anyone care to enlighten me?

R.

Luv900
5th May 2004, 01:42 PM
well for starter it is 176.6 peak horsepower , thing that salepeople tell you if they are trying to sell you a car ;) (peak is horse power car can go to but normal horse power is the hp you always got with 0.5 +/- from it because many things could change will driving)

where the horse power and torqe meet in crossover there is your real horse power or wheel horse power (max is engine.. hey i have forgot about dyno!)

about the hirsch_step2.jpg
then car is 190 hp and 290 something nm in torqe.

i learn something about dyno test while back and have too bad forgot the most about it :nono;

Ninjia2.0t
9th July 2004, 10:39 AM
Was this the Stage 1 PPC upgrade?

spaceghost
9th July 2004, 03:29 PM
id love to see the dyno numbers for the 2.0T with this ppc software before and after. i know with the mods done to my car right now at the wheels i have around 195-200whp. i dont have the dynos or anything, but countless people have same mods i have and they put up the sheets all the time. thats the only reference i have, well that and the 6 friends of mine that all have this done.

Ninjia2.0t
9th July 2004, 04:52 PM
does the PPC upgrade work on '04 2.0t's. I'm new to Saab and am curious, everything seems to be '02 or '03.

AirTreesWaterAnimals
9th July 2004, 05:26 PM
Yes, it works on 04's.

Ninjia2.0t
9th July 2004, 05:38 PM
Yes, it works on 04's.

Excellent :cheesy:

sjhudon
9th July 2004, 07:04 PM
does the PPC upgrade work on '04 2.0t's. I'm new to Saab and am curious, everything seems to be '02 or '03.

03 and 04 should be the same, the only difference is they turned the rattles down on the 04's.