Improving Mitsubishi TE05 - turbo upgrade [Archive] - SaabCentral Forums

: Improving Mitsubishi TE05 - turbo upgrade


niko
13th June 2002, 02:23 PM
What's the way to improve the pressure delivery into an mitsubishi TE05 ?
Does anybody know (like changing the trim in the T3) what's the magic upgrade for the TE05 ?

NB: I can hold 22 psi (1.5bar) for only 2second before the apc open the wastegate. But in normal operation, it's impossible to get more than 13psi at 5000rpm at 200kph...
I need more...

Eric van Spelde
13th June 2002, 02:48 PM
The Mits'used on the late c900 is the TE05-12B. A 16G compressor wheel could be fitted in a correspondingly machined out compressor housing, which would make it about equivalent to the 'trim 60' on Garrett T03's, which can support up to about 300 hp with good efficiency. The nice thing about the TE05 however is that the wastegate design is _much_ better than that of the Garrett. On the Saab Network's Performance BB there's talk about having exhaust downpipes made that would separate the airflow coming out of the wastegate and 'blend' it into the exhaust flow not unlike tubular exhaust headers.
It seems at high hp applications, the turbo/wastegate/exhaust design of the c900 causes some serious backpressus which makes for slower turbo spoolup and thermal load.

Happy Saabing,
Eric
Turbo! Team Europe
http://www.turboteameurope.com

Keith
13th June 2002, 03:00 PM
Just don't be tempted to fiddle with base boost!

Bang! (http://www.saab-900.com/forums/viewtopic.php?topic=3176&forum=2&24)

niko
13th June 2002, 03:37 PM
No way !!!!
I reajust the base boost yesterday at 0.4bar (5.8psi) because previously it was set at 3 psi (0.2bar) and at high rpm/speed/pressure, when the wastegate open i was loosing too much power (generally going from 1.2bar to 0.3 bar !!!!!!).
I don't have test the car on highway since the modification but i think that i will have to lower P pot a bit because it seems that the P max is much higher since readjust the base boost...

Johann F
14th June 2002, 03:25 AM
I can't see any mods in the high end delivery not killing the wonderfully quick spoolup of the Mitsubishi - Turbo's have a narrow efficiency band - you can move this up and down the rev range but there's no 'magic' upgrade to give you power below 2k rpm and still be efficient at 5k and + 1.5bar of boost. If all you want is more top end - swop the unit for an earlier Garret!

Janne Selinummi
14th June 2002, 03:31 AM
Ceramic ball bearings will provide faster spool-up with bigger turbos.
Expensive, but that way you can enjoy both benefits up to a certain point;
Low-down spool-up plus good high-end boost capacity.
A turbo like that will, however, cost as much as a really good c900 T16 would... :sad:

niko
14th June 2002, 03:04 PM
I don't need 1.5bar at 5000rpm, but i want 1bar at 5000rpm. It seems impossible with the mitsu !!! At 5000rpm i only have 0.6 to 0.8bar....In France, on highway, you can easily reach 240kph. But with the c900, at 200kph you are about 4800rpm and I always feel the lack of power due to the low boost (0.6-0.8bar).
Any Idea to reach 1bar at this rpm without changing the mitsu for the garett and without ceramic ball bearing ?

Janne Selinummi
14th June 2002, 03:54 PM
I don't see why the standard Mitsu TE-05 couldn't provide 1 bar of boost at the 5000 rpm.
There's a guy in Finland who runs his Mitsu-equipped T16 with 1.3-1.4 bar. He just added a big intercooler, tweaked the APC pretty substantially and took care that there's enough fuel for such high boost.
1 bar of boost is generally stated to be the maximum the TE-05 can provide without getting excessively hot, but apparently, it's possible to push the limits a bit.
If you can get 1 bar at lower revs, then the turbo most certainly is capable of giving the same boost level at high revs as well.
If it doesn't, then it's a question of boost controller; be that an APC or whatever you may have in your car.

niko
14th June 2002, 04:44 PM
I don't guess that the APC is faulty because if he drop back the pressure that's because the engine begin to knock.
I will check the ignition. Maybe it's coming from there because originally, there was no APC on the car (it's a LPT) then in put the APC box on it and do all the wiring.
But i never check the igintion timing.
Maybe there is few difference in timing between LPT and full pressure.
What do you think ?
BTW, is there any difference between the LPT wastegate and the full pressure c900 with a mitsu turbo ? (I'm asking that because the arm that open the gate in the turbo don't have a very long range to open or close the gate...It seems strange...)

Janne Selinummi
14th June 2002, 09:30 PM
I suppose the full pressure T16 would have different ignition settings, because the addition of APC and intercooler allow less retard for ignition, thus developing more power.

The wastegate is the same AFAIK, but I'm not sure about this...

If knocking indeed seems to be the problem, then you should check your injection output as well. It could be that the mixture is too lean for higher boost levels.
Also do check all the pressure hoses, in particular the APC three-way solenoid valve hoses. There could be a minor leak that only becomes a problem with certain boost/load combo.

Johann F
15th June 2002, 05:11 AM
As far as I know the LPT distributor has more retard than the FPT and it brings it on more gradulaly. If it retards to much bellow 10deg BTDC though it will become very inefficient and you will loose power and generate heat even though you can still be boosting quite high. The APC is programed to taper boost after about 4100rpm as I think ( as Keith has discovered) that at high RPM the APC is not very good at detecting knock and reacting quick enough to prevent damage to the engine. Have you done the 'Red box' upgrade? - this is specificaly designed to sustain boost higher up the rev range.Also if you are running a late T16 non S apc box from a cat equiped car - they are only 160bhp - the Red Box mod will give you 25bhp more on this box. In the end though I have done lots of mods to mine and I can't get it to sustain 1bar for more than a few seconds - water injection is he only way you are going to control the combustion temperatures if you want to hold 1bar for any length of time.

niko
18th June 2002, 05:26 AM
Originaly, the car is a LPT (1991) with cat but without APC and without intercooler.
I put the APC on the car and with help of the tweaker“s site I tweak the APC. I put the intercooler too.
Since a year, i“ve tried the Speedparts chip for Lucas Injection ( I don“t see any improvement...)
I think that i will try to focus myself on the ignition.

Thanks to all saab freaks for advices.

Johann F
18th June 2002, 06:18 AM
Another 'trick' is to advance the basic ignition from 16btdc to 18 or 20 btdc - this will give you much better off boost performance. Use a timing light and a pump to see how far you get retard and if neccessary bend the stop tab to get more ( as the LPT dist has more retard than normal anyway you may be able to get away with just advancing the basic setting)- I run 20deg at idle and 11 deg at at boost. Fitting a BOV will help spoolup between shifts (the standard Bosch part is good enough and cheap) - try to mount it near the throttle and not near the turbo as this will keep it cooler and prolong it's life. I have got good results from a RRFPR ( from Trent Saab) - set it at the stock 3.0 bar for a Lucas and be prepared for readjustments for the first couple of 100 miles ( so you will need to get a good fuel pressure guage) this will give you smoother power delivery and quicker response but not any more power - it's a drivability improver ( don't use it with the fuel chip!). If you can (emmissions regulations permiting)replace the Cat with a straight sleeve of exhaust tube - this will greatly free up the top end power and make the engine feel much more free reving - you need to have a RRFPR or a fuel chip with this mod IMO otherwise it will feel less powerful. If you can - go one better and replace the restrictive cast elbow off the turbo with a custom bent pipe ( battery will need to go in the boot and make sure you get the Lambda sensor refitted)this will really open up the power at higher revs. All of these mods mean you will get better power and drivability out of more of the rev range.

Eric van Spelde
18th June 2002, 08:18 AM
I don't think the fuel injection chip would do much without other mods. You can trust the car mfgs to come up with a reasonably god fuel map for the OE spec engine, I'd guess. Typically, fueling mods on turbo cars are needed to support more boost and/or intake exhaust mods and prevent leaning out at WOT/high rpm under the new conditions.

Fit an IC if you haven't done so already, and find a tuner who has equipment for monitoring air/fuel ratio as well as exhaust gas temperature, in order to afely up the boost. According to Glenn Ellis of Trent Saab, they typically find lpt's fitted with their sports exhaust, an IC with fancooler kit, an RRFPR, uprated bypass valve and ditto wastegate can safely take 1.1 bar, which would make them real performers I'd guess.

Anyways, your fuel system with the chip should provide you with considerably more leeway when trying to push more air through the engine, than it would stock. There lies the advantage.

Happy Saabing,
Eric
Turbo! Team Europe
http://www.turboteameurope.com

Ken
29th June 2002, 04:34 PM
Just today I picked up a te05 from the scrapyard for £20! I prised it out of a 9000 se, so what I need to know is whether the turbo itself is the only part I need as I also got the inlet casting and actuator in the deal (I havn't had time to do any comparison yet)?

Cheers

Ken

_________________
'88 900 T8 Auto
Be patient my young padowin apprentice!

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: ken on Jun 29, 2002 9:40pm ]</font>

niko
29th June 2002, 05:05 PM
Yes, the turbo is the only part you need. But it seems that the wastegate is not the same (and the mount plate too) as this one used one the Garett.

my 900
30th June 2002, 03:27 PM
would i have to do any mods to any electrics as i have a 92 lpt and hoping to fit an intercooler off a T16?

Johann F
1st July 2002, 05:03 AM
It's a straight bolt on job - make sure you get get all the rest of the plumbing. If you have a choice of IC's the later style with the larger core and the formed pipes are better than the earlier one with the cast pipes - better flow. You might take the edge off pickup and throttle response with an IC but you should gain more outright power.

ShadowWorks
3rd April 2007, 03:08 AM
The Mits'used on the late c900 is the TE05-12B. A 16G compressor wheel could be fitted in a correspondingly machined out compressor housing, which would make it about equivalent to the 'trim 60' on Garrett T03's, which can support up to about 300 hp with good efficiency.

Happy Saabing,
Eric
Turbo! Team Europe
http://www.turboteameurope.com

Eric do you know a place that can supply these 16G compressor wheel or even the original one?

Would the small 16G compressor wheel fit the standard TE05 12B air side housing?

I don't want to have the inside face machined being on a budget and I have a spare TE05 12B which I can experiment on.

Matthew
3rd April 2007, 06:22 AM
Any of the usual turbo places should be able to help, such as BTN and Turbo Technics. Brad at Kansas City Saab in the US sells a complete 16G hybrid unit.

Si
3rd April 2007, 06:45 AM
What about mix and matching with a TD04, they use those on the 9-3 HOT/Viggens etc so should have a descent sized compressor wheel and housing.

Shan
4th April 2007, 11:06 AM
Pic of a TE05-12B upgraded with 16G compressor wheel :

http://www.mytrolls.com/board/files/16g.jpg

With 18G compressor wheel, belonging to Bohtak :

http://www.mytrolls.com/board/files/18g.jpg

Comparison between the 16G and 18G wheels.

http://www.mytrolls.com/board/files/16gvs18g.jpg

ShadowWorks
4th April 2007, 02:53 PM
What about mix and matching with a TD04, they use those on the 9-3 HOT/Viggens etc so should have a descent sized compressor wheel and housing.

I thought the TD04 was a pig to fit on the c900?

I was spying on the Volvo forums and they complain alot in general but man did they complain about fitting turbos :lol:

Isn't the TD04 the same size as the TE05 anyway?


Thanks for the pictures Shan, I never realised all they did was machine the throat of the housing, I though they would have to profile the rear to match the compressor wheel, in that case I could machine this myself.;)

I never realised just how big the 18G is, its huge!

How much Horse power does Bohtak car make with that 18G?

Matthew
4th April 2007, 07:09 PM
An 18G is good for around 380BHP.

ShadowWorks
4th April 2007, 07:21 PM
Thats well over the power band I am looking at;)

Could the B202 really make 380Hp and be a usable car?

Saab-Daniel
4th April 2007, 07:23 PM
MAPABLE ECU, Sha... Shouldn't be a problem at all...
Matthew, are you sure about the 18g? And how is this compared to the TD04-18T in size? My brother is maxing his 18T on his 9k 2.3 aero now, producing 340bhp...
Daniel.

ShadowWorks
4th April 2007, 07:56 PM
My brother is maxing his 18T on his 9k 2.3 aero now, producing 340bhp...
Daniel.

Does anybody know what kind of turbo Wylee Coyote was using on his 9000?

I know he did all kinds of mods but he must have been getting 400 to 500Hp

Eric van Spelde
5th April 2007, 01:48 AM
GT 3071R IIRC (yes, all caps please!!! G*******t).

Shan
7th April 2007, 09:59 AM
Thanks for the pictures Shan, I never realised all they did was machine the throat of the housing, I though they would have to profile the rear to match the compressor wheel, in that case I could machine this myself.;)
Those pics are courtesy of Denmaster, who posted it in the local Saab forums.

How much Horse power does Bohtak car make with that 18G?
I'll ask Bohtak the next time I see him :)

walawala
9th April 2007, 06:44 AM
Those pics are courtesy of Denmaster, who posted it in the local Saab forums.


I'll ask Bohtak the next time I see him :)

from what i heard from him...he's pushing abt 220 :D

des

ShadowWorks
9th April 2007, 02:12 PM
from what i heard from him...he's pushing abt 220 :D

des

How much Psi is he using to get that 220Hp? 12Psi maybe?

I know the TE05-12B guys are using around 18-20Psi to get that kind of power which is not sustainable for very long.

If I could get 220Hp with 12Psi I would be very happy and it would keep knock far, far away;)

Some guy on here said that 15Psi and up will generate more heat which I think is true and how big an intercooler can you really use.

I want more power for less Psi and it seems a 16G or maybe 18G is the way to go.

Albert Trout
9th April 2007, 06:20 PM
There may be another Mitsu available to fiddle with Sha. I've just bought myself a T3/T4 hybrid from RBM on the bay :cheesy:

ShadowWorks
9th April 2007, 07:00 PM
Oh post a picture of this big hairy turbo;)

Whats the specs on this T3/T4 hybrid beasty?

I have never heard of RBM.

Matthew
10th April 2007, 06:07 AM
Matthew, are you sure about the 18g? And how is this compared to the TD04-18T in size?
I thought the 18G was larger than the 18T, but looking at these compressor maps I don't know!

18T:
http://www.hexfiles.com/resources/compressor_maps/TD04H-18T.gif

18G:
http://www.hexfiles.com/resources/compressor_maps/TD05H-18G.gif

Shan
10th April 2007, 10:13 AM
I want more power for less Psi and it seems a 16G or maybe 18G is the way to go.
As you stated in a another thread, flow is more important than Psi. I had the opportunity of sitting in Bohtak's Saab when he newly installed the 18G. Running-in his rebuilt engine then, he set the max boost to just 0.6 bar but man, the acceleration was awesome and was pulling harder than any 16V FPT that I've ever experienced....

ShadowWorks
10th April 2007, 03:59 PM
I believe you about Bohtak's Saab and his 18G turbo, I was in a Toyota Supra with a big compressor and it was only running 10Psi but I felt like I was being fire from a Canon!;)

I just bought a 16G compressor for the Mitsubishi, I want to keep low/mid engine speed torque and have a muscular mid and top end.

That is the biggest failing of the standard compressor on the TE05-12B, the more Psi you get the hotter the air gets and at top speed after only a minute, it becomes a hot air pump and the speed drops and knock enters:(

philb
10th April 2007, 04:05 PM
Have they got any more 16G compressors?

ShadowWorks
10th April 2007, 09:06 PM
Maybe Phil, I got it from a guy in the States, it only cost me $100 which is like £50 odd quid;)

I just need to mill out the compressor housing which is going to be a hard DIY job because I don't have a lathe, I plan on using a drill, a vice, and a small home made cutting head:lol:

Saab-Daniel
11th April 2007, 03:06 AM
Link to compressor?
Daniel.

ShadowWorks
11th April 2007, 03:33 AM
http://www.boostplanet.com/parts.htm

I got this one below called super 16G which dwarfs my TE05-12B compressor,I have no idea why its called a super though:lol:, didn't cost extra so I said ok.

http://www.boostplanet.com/_themes/car002_flash/hr.gif

http://www.boostplanet.com/_themes/car002_flash/hr.gif

http://www.boostplanet.com/20gwheel.JPG


Compressor Wheels:12a,13b,15g - $109.00

16G - new takeoff - $69.00

"big" 16G - new - $119.00

"super" 16G - new - $119.00,


18G - new - $119.00

20G - new - $129.00


They have so many parts for turbos Daniel and them seem cheap to me?

Saab-Daniel
11th April 2007, 05:14 AM
They really do seem cheap! Have you recieved the unit yet, or is that pick of the internet?
Also, have you compared the size to the 12b-wheel?
Looking forward to hearing about this, at it seems like we can get some upgrades pretty cheap :D
Daniel.

Matthew
11th April 2007, 05:31 AM
There are small and large 16G wheels. Not sure if the super 16G is one of those, or something different.

You should fit a 360-degree thrust bearing in place of the 270-degree bearing.

Wishing I was better at reading compressor maps :roll: I'd like to work out which Mitsubishi compressor was suitable for around 260BHP. A 16G is too large.

I have compressor maps for the large and small 16G, 15G, 14G but the air flow rate is in kg/sec which means nothing to me!
http://www.hexfiles.com/resources/compressor_maps/

Albert Trout
11th April 2007, 05:43 AM
I have compressor maps for the large and small 16G, 15G, 14G but the air flow rate is in kg/sec which means nothing to me!
http://www.hexfiles.com/resources/compressor_maps/

My maffs might be a bit shonky, but to convert kg/sec into lb/min, divide it by 0.007576 and you'll be there or thereabouts Matthew, if that helps.

Albert Trout
11th April 2007, 06:09 AM
God, work's boring me today. I found a converter for oil workers and the exact figure is 1 lb/min = 0.0075599Kg/sec, so for 260bhp you should need between 0.18 & 0.19 kg/sec of air, and at 1bar of boost the pressure ratio is about 2.15, allowing for a loss of 1psi. The 14G looks like it's getting a bit out of it's efficiency range there. So is the big 16g, but it's it's not too far away.

Si
11th April 2007, 06:30 AM
If you know what injectors you need for 260bhp you can then work out how much air you need to flow to match the injectors, once you have that figure it's pretty easy to choose the right turbo from the compressor map, just remember that the pressure is shown as absolute so 2 bar on the chart is really 1 bar of boost.

The stall line is also quite important, you should be able to figure roughly what rpm the turbo will spool from the stall line, if possible you always want the engine to be on the right side of the line.

Garrett T25 is good for about 260, ECU upgrade, 3" exhaust and sports air filter on a NG900 will give you about 245-250bhp, TD04 will take you to about 300, but they both have slightly differnt flanges to the T3.

philb
11th April 2007, 06:41 AM
Hmm, I'd rather buy the compressor and its housing together. I'm not sure that rebuilding turbo's is as easy as you make out Shad, the bolts don't always come off, and I'd not be so confident that it will spin perfectly at 100,000 rpm afterwards.

Saab-Daniel
11th April 2007, 06:44 AM
You should most definetly get it balanched after fitting the new compressor-wheel...
Daniel.

Si
11th April 2007, 06:47 AM
I think you would need to get it rebalanced if you are replacing the compressor wheel, splitting it down and rebuilding exactly the same will only work if all the parts have previously been balanced.I suppose you could try rigging up an oil feed then give the turbine a blast with some compressed air to see if it spools OK, but without measuing the vibrations given off by the unit you have no real way of knowing how well it is balanced.

Saab-Daniel
11th April 2007, 06:52 AM
Also, the Mitsu-units have 360degree bearings from the factory... ;)
Daniel.

philb
11th April 2007, 08:32 AM
Used mitsubishi housings are 49 dollars, no brainer really.
Still, if I order the wheel and housing, whats involved in fitting it?


unbolt old wheel
unbolt housing
fit new housing
fit new wheel
balance turbo?

Si
11th April 2007, 09:00 AM
Unbolt exhaust and compressor housing, put nut on turbine in a vice, undo nut on compressor housing, remove compressor wheel, withdraw turbine and shaft, replace bearings and seals, replace turbine and shaft, replace new compressor wheel, tighten comp wheel nut.......

philb
11th April 2007, 11:04 AM
Ok, a housing for a standard 16G is 129.00, for a super 16G its 199.00
This may be important Shadowworks!

Si
11th April 2007, 11:27 AM
Before you start takign metal of the compressor housing i'd do some serious research, it may have been in one of my books, i can't recall, but i do remember the author commenting on the distance betwwen the sides of the housing and the wheel being very important for turbo efficiency, it could make the difference between you having a bag of $hit turbo and a very good, highly efficient one.

philb
11th April 2007, 12:08 PM
Thats why I'm gonna buy a housing and avoid all that :)

ShadowWorks
11th April 2007, 08:51 PM
Well I went to my local aircraft model shop to buy a miniature lathe but after seeing the price I changed my mind real fast:o, you guys think we spend a lot of money on our 900:lol:

I know model makers need precision tools that can do this kind of work, It just not worth it for me, to buy a specialised machine for a single job.

I looked into buying a micro milling head at £80 which goes into a normal pillar stand drill, but for a one off job it still not cost effective.

The compressor wheel is in the post, once it arrives I will find a good Turbo shop (Fingers crossed) who can machine the 16G wheel to match the housing and seat, best to leave it with the guys with all the tools and experience I think.

If it costs me around £100 to have it machined and balanced I can live with that, I could spend double no treble that and mess it up.

The last thing I want is to spend all this money, time and effort to build a turbo thats like a big soft sponge, I could just by a Volvo if thats what I wanted:lol:

philb
12th April 2007, 05:03 AM
Boostplanet were extremely helpful over email, they do say that the turbo will need to be balanced afterwards.

Matthew
12th April 2007, 05:46 AM
So is the big 16g, but it's it's not too far away.
Thanks Albert :D Clearly I need to revise Compressor Maps 101 :D Your comment above implies that the big 16g compressor is incapable of flowing 320BHP, as I thought (and had been told).

Doesn't Brad sell the TE05-16g hybrid for 320BHP?

Albert Trout
12th April 2007, 06:08 AM
Thanks Albert :D Clearly I need to revise Compressor Maps 101 :D Your comment above implies that the big 16g compressor is incapable of flowing 320BHP, as I thought (and had been told).

Doesn't Brad sell the TE05-16g hybrid for 320BHP?

Going by the compressor map, it would be struggling a bit at those power levels, but then again my poor wee 12B's "supporting" about 230 just now and it's probably got a little bit more in it, so it depends what your definition of capable is :D

It would be interesting to find out exactly how much air our engines need per BHP as well. I've been assuming 9-11hp per lb/ft of air whenever I look at a map.

Saab-Daniel
12th April 2007, 06:23 AM
@ 1.2 bar and 6500 rpm, in a 1985ccm engine with 85% volumetric efficiency, the usage of air is 29.80 lbs/min.
Now you can start looking at turbo-maps :)
Daniel.

Albert Trout
12th April 2007, 06:31 AM
Aye, but how much power is being developed using that amount of air Daniel? I've read that a turbocharged engine will develop between 9-11BHP per lb/min of air. So for 29.8 lb/min of air that could be anything from 268 - 327 BHP.

Saab-Daniel
12th April 2007, 06:39 AM
That depends... How well-flowing is the engine (I know, VE will give you some of that answer), but also the type of turbo being used will give you answers. 1.2 bar with a mitsu te05-12b will provide less power than with a GT3076r, because of the efficiency-range probably is broken with a mitsu, but not at all with a GT30, and, because of the amount of air it will flow. You really have to compare the use of air in the engine, to the pressure you're running, or want to run, and the power you want to produce...
Daniel.

Albert Trout
12th April 2007, 06:59 AM
Suppose I could work out the BHP per lb/min, for my engine at the time anyway. I've got an exact power figure from my dyno run, I know how much boost I was running and I can work out how much air the engine was using at the peak power RPM.

Saab-Daniel
12th April 2007, 07:09 AM
Not peak-power rpm, but peak rpm, me thinks... It will still use more air at higher rpm, even if the power-curve has dropped...
Daniel.

ShadowWorks
12th April 2007, 11:44 PM
Lots to think about if you set down and do the maths, thats why I won't:lol:

I'm just going to do the basics guys, get the turbo machined, balanced and bolt it in, I'm really not worried about fueling because I can adjust it over a wide range, I don't have an Air-Fuel ratio gauges but I do have a necessary knock sensor and big nose to smell the exhaust;)

I do not want to produce anything like 280Hp or 320Hp which is suppose to be in the range of these compressors, I just want similar power, maybe a touch more than what I'm making now but with half the Psi, thats the ticket guys.

The other reason is, at high RPMs or what I really mean is illegal motorway speeds, the TE05-12B gets hot, really hot, you can't run high boost for very long which means top speed is not sustainable.

We will see how I get on, if its not worth the money and hassle I will let you know guys know;)

Dam this had better be worth it!:x