Page 7 of the Warranty Booklet states...

"The use of Tuning & Styling products, which are not approved and sold by Saab Automobile AB, will result in the loss of the Saab Manufacturers Warranty on all affected technical areas and as applicable to your specific market.

Saab Automobile AB rejects any warranty and product liability for defects caused by Tuning & Styling products which are not approved and sold by Saab Automobile AB"

So interpret that how you wish. I know various countries have consumer protection laws that override some of this.

This post ranks up there with alex_c's aux post for post of the year honors. Thank you.

In the USA there is some protection. Unless the manufacturer can prove your aftermarket modification is what caused the problem they have to fix it under warranty. Just because you bolt somehting on it does not instantly void your warranty on the affected system.

The law relating to the other types of warranties is similar. Federal law, regulating to one extent or another, expressed and implied warranties is very clear: That warranties may not be conditioned upon the use of the manufacturer's parts or services unless those parts or services are provided free of charge. Therefore, the expressed and implied warranties cannot be voided merely because aftermarket parts are installed on a vehicle. The warranties can be voided only where the installation of an aftermarket part is DIRECTLY responsible for that failure which gives rise to the warranty claim."

'Magnuson Moss Warranty Act

Unless the manufacturer can prove your aftermarket modification is what caused the problem they have to fix it under warranty.

How could/would they "prove" that?

^^ I believe that boils down to whose word the judge agrees with in court.

Page 7 of the Warranty Booklet states...

"The use of Tuning & Styling products, which are not approved and sold by Saab Automobile AB, will result in the loss of the Saab Manufacturers Warranty on all affected technical areas and as applicable to your specific market.

Saab Automobile AB rejects any warranty and product liability for defects caused by Tuning & Styling products which are not approved and sold by Saab Automobile AB"

So interpret that how you wish. I know various countries have consumer protection laws that override some of this.

You said it, some laws override this.

There is also a concept in the law known as "unconscienceable clauses" , which means anything unreasonable or against the spirit of the document is worthless. The above would probably be found to be just that.

The mattress I just bought has a warranty. But in the mice type they say that they warrant it "upon our sole descretion". That is another example.

The reason such laws exist regarding warranties is because such phrases exist.

But this digresses...

My whole points earlier were:

1. You won't have your entire warranty tossed out for an engine mod. Some of the language people were using here made that unclear.

2. You probably won't blow your turbo or other major components assuming you drive responsibly.

3. Due to the features of the upgrade they probably wouldn't KNOW you did the mod in the first place.

4. Even if they suspected it they would probably not care at the dealer level. And if you pushed the matter with a "see you in court" they would cave if the law and facts supported you. How many Dealership service managers do you know who want to spend their day in court? And no, attorneys couldn't just show up for them. They need an expert to testify, since the burden of proof is on them, not you, if they deny the claim saying you did something that caused a defect. You can represent yourself for $0, they will spend more than the cost of the repair to them in their costs. They would have a hard time collecting costs on a case which comes down to opinion anyway.

what is the point of this argument? its going to come down to the service department of the dealer you take it too, if they find out and want to fight you on it, your going to have a hard time... its all a matter of luck. :wink:

I don't know if all of you may recall, but a few years ago, when the Personal Computer revolution started (around 1982) most companies (namely IBM, Apple and later Compaq) had very tough warranty clauses, where you could not install ANY extra memory, or a hard drive or anything if it was not provided by the manufacturer and installed by an authorized dealer. After the 'Magnuson Moss Warranty Act', the third party accessories and components market just exploded since the PC makers couldn't claim a loss of warranty any longer.

The Magnuson Moss Warranty Act is very powerful, you just need to know when to invoke it... :wink:

You might want to check this review on aftermarket mods and warranty, it is an interesting one, coming from a car mechanic and shop owner.

The issue was with swapping a chip, but ultimately, it impacted the way the engine functioned over time.

http://www.canadiandriver.com/articles/pb/aftermarketmods.htm

You might want to check this review on aftermarket mods and warranty, it is an interesting one, coming from a car mechanic and shop owner.

The issue was with swapping a chip, but ultimately, it impacted the way the engine functioned over time.

http://www.canadiandriver.com/articles/pb/aftermarketmods.htm

It sounds like the guy put in a K&N and then never thought to check it. When you are doing any performance upgrades (as this guy did tons of work), it is very important to monitor you engine more regularily than a stock engine. It sounds like this guy ruined his engine simply by not taking care of it.

You might want to check this review on aftermarket mods and warranty, it is an interesting one, coming from a car mechanic and shop owner.

The issue was with swapping a chip, but ultimately, it impacted the way the engine functioned over time.

http://www.canadiandriver.com/articles/pb/aftermarketmods.htm

It sounds like the guy put in a K&N and then never thought to check it. When you are doing any performance upgrades (as this guy did tons of work), it is very important to monitor you engine more regularily than a stock engine. It sounds like this guy ruined his engine simply by not taking care of it.

True indeed. But ultimately, this leaves me to be concerned with using something like the PPC and having to deal with the dealer on issues of warranty.

As indicated on the many posts on PPC and reliability/warranty issues, it should probably be a non-issue. But this really leaves me to think over whether the SAAB service people could ever determine if the ECU has been "worked" on. Again, as appropriately pointed out by someone on this forum, it is going to be hard-pressed for the dealer to prove an issue with the engine has to do with a mod in the engine. But again, the potential hassle... :-?

I think we can all agree that the warranty won't be void, but only the parts that can be proven to be affected by the PPC. I have checked Australian warranty laws and they are similar to the US.

I don't see the point of waiting for your warranty to expire before you put the PPC on. Either way, if the PPC is going to damage your engine, you will have to pay. In fact, if it is damaged under warranty, there is a chance it will be fixed at no cost to you given the stealth nature of the PPC.In the mean time you miss 3 years of zoom. If a part failed and was not caused by the PPC then it would be fixed under warranty. If they did detect that you had the PPC and tried to pin the failure on it, they would have a hard time proving it.

The warranty issue is a furphy! It is not the issue of losing warranty that is the concern. It is the worry about potential damage caused by the PPC. This may or may not happen regardless of the warranty.

If you really, really FUBARed your engine because of the PPC (hard to believe), you could always buy a new ECU or one from a wrecker and put it on before getting the car looked at. You'd be out a thousand bucks instead of 5k. Frankly I think that is dishonest and we all pay for that.

BSR could put this to rest by doing the kind of thing that Abbott, Saab or Hirsh do. That is, give warranties, race the cars or do endurance tests. If it doesn't blow up in an hour at full boost, it probably won't in normal driving. Abbott has gotten slightly more hp out of their 2.0t upgrade, so it's unlikely that BSR is pushing it to any limit.

This whole discussion begs the question (if that is the right term, I'm American, forgive me!): If you told the PPC to upgrade your ECU to Stage 1, then took it back to stock after problems occured, IS there a way the dealer would know? Do the ECU's log history? And if so, how much?

Jason
Swearing to myself that I will NOT modify this car, but Lord I am TEMPTED!

Our current understanding, is that is only detectable when installed. This has been supported by comments from BSR and a Saab Technician. However, one PPC user has reported that Saab detected "anomalies" with the ECU settings (I think "Euro" code was detected in the US ECU). However any tech worth his salt should be able to detect signs of performance increases (over the long term) in the mechanics of the car, but not necessarity say it was the PPC.

There are no logs or flashed dates. This was confirmed by a Saab tech.

Tech II when scanning the ECU will only look for a specific flag which identifies the version of the ECU tuning. If it doesn't find the latest it will signal that the ECU needs updating.