What does the BSR PPC actually change to get more HP? [Archive] - SaabCentral Forums

: What does the BSR PPC actually change to get more HP?


Saba
04-03-04, 03:07 AM
Anybody know???

mav238
04-03-04, 11:51 AM
Anybody know???

I am guessing it makes the extra power from:

1. increasing the boost
2. altering the fuel delivery and ultimately trhe fuel/air mixture
3. altering the spark timing

#2 possibility is what concerns me, as this may mean increased fuel consumption, even if you drive the same way before the mod.

Anyone who has made the PPC mod confirm what has changed in their fuel consumption?

WASAAB
04-03-04, 04:24 PM
I also think Engine will gets hotter by running higher RPM.
And I'm wondering with all that extra HP and Torque gain, can STOCK transmission/Transaxle can handle it? If it does, then how long will it last... :lol:

SS
04-03-04, 05:04 PM
I also think Engine will gets hotter by running higher RPM.
And I'm wondering with all that extra HP and Torque gain, can STOCK transmission/Transaxle can handle it? If it does, then how long will it last... :lol:

Common sense tells me that the transmission/trasaxle thats on the car is not made for a MAX hp power of 210hp or whatever. It can definately handle more power!

squall1
04-03-04, 05:38 PM
If its anything like the Volvo ECU upgrades its most of the increase probably comes from increased boost.

brucec32
05-03-04, 12:43 AM
I swear, I consider myself a pretty cautious person, but some of the dawdling I hear on this topic reminds me of my grandmother who was afraid to drive when it was raining.

You only live once. These are not outrageous changes to the engine. This stuff has been done for years on other cars with minimal negative results if driven with some degree of reason. Worst case, you are out $2,000 in repairs. But for a brief shining moment you were ALIVE, and not the guy whose wife tells him what to do and who wears his pants halfway up his torso.

To quote Don Corleone..."YOU CAN ACT LIKE A MAN!"

CallipNCSUsaab
07-03-04, 06:08 PM
^^^

a guy I know here in NC got the PPC upgrade for a 2001 93 and just blew a valve.. timing was all fudged up.. when he was stranded on the road he probably wasnt thinking at least I am not like my grandmother.

nestoraero
07-03-04, 06:55 PM
^^^

a guy I know here in NC got the PPC upgrade for a 2001 93 and just blew a valve.. timing was all fudged up.. when he was stranded on the road he probably wasnt thinking at least I am not like my grandmother.

Was this the only mod on his car?????
The reason I'm asking is because I'm very interested in the PPC and up to now this is the only negative thing I've heard.... :roll:

CallipNCSUsaab
08-03-04, 01:18 AM
^ no, it was not his only "mod" I will try and get some more info on what he has done for sure but I know he has a turbo back exhaust and a cone air filter (or had, he might have gone back to an ITG)

Dave N
08-03-04, 01:35 PM
If its a 2001 9_3 then its not a ss model, the engine is different and I'd hazard a guess that the miles are starting to creep up. Its something to bear in mind I suppose, if it can happen to the old model I gues its a possibility on the new one too.

Dave N :roll: [/quote]

iceben
08-03-04, 06:36 PM
I also think Engine will gets hotter by running higher RPM.
And I'm wondering with all that extra HP and Torque gain, can STOCK transmission/Transaxle can handle it? If it does, then how long will it last... :lol:

Actually, the cooling system can handle the extra power just fine. And, since I have more torque available, I'm probably running lower RPM ... I don't have to keep the revs up to have the power I want.

Transmission's ability to handle the power? Not an unreasonable concern. I had an early SHO which had more power than the transmission could handle. And it was all STOCK! Manual tranny rebuilt twice in 100,000 miles.

brucec32
08-03-04, 09:28 PM
^^^

a guy I know here in NC got the PPC upgrade for a 2001 93 and just blew a valve.. timing was all fudged up.. when he was stranded on the road he probably wasnt thinking at least I am not like my grandmother.

I'm sure he blamed it on the PPC upgrade. Problem is, you don't know for sure that was the problem. And if he CAN prove that, then you have a pretty easy case in court against the guy who sold it to you. Defective merchandise.

And of course the assumption I made is that the upgrade is a COMPETENT ONE. Junk in, junk out. Find out if the company doing it has a good track record before buying. I'm also curious why if this guy's valve problem was caused by the software, why doesn't it destroy every engine it's used on?

My comments were referring to the worriers about the warranty. ANYTHING you buy can break or cause something else to break. I am buying a hot tub. It could die 1 day out of the warranty period and leave me with a $1500 repair or a $3000 bird bath. I could avoid that by not having one at all. But then I'd lose the enjoyment of it too. Much as Saab 9-3 ss drivers will continue to have somewhat pokey cars if they don't do anything.

Most of you probably have an ice maker on your refrigerator. Did you realize that it has a thin copper or plastic tube going to it and these are pretty easy to kink or break when pushing the unit back against the wall. If this leak were to develop while you're at work you'd likely come home to thousands of dollars worth of water damage in your home. You'd be on the hook for at least the deductible. My brother's did this at his house, and ruined some hardwood floors worth thousands. I guess he could crack his own ice in the future.

You also have water hoses going to your clothes washer. Very few people think to put a shut off valve on these. Again, a burst hose means your home is flooded.

The above are examples of what CAN go wrong with very simple cheap items. You can't avoid all risk. And certainly the world of European car modding isn't the place for the risk averse. Sell your Saab and buy a nice boring Accord V6 if you want more speed and don't want to risk anything to get it.

This same brother o' mine had a '96 Porsche 944 turbo. Very nice car. He chipped it with major boost increase and drove it for years w/ no problems and thought that the chip helped him sell it later for more money. It performed much better (50hp increase?) and made the car much more enjoyable. This was a more risky upgrade and still worked out well. So we all have our anecdotes on how this stuff works out.

Jet 9-3
09-03-04, 10:29 AM
[quote="brucec32"] Much as Saab 9-3 ss drivers will continue to have somewhat pokey cars if they don't do anything.
[quote]

Somewhat pokey?

Nah. It's hard enough avoiding tickets as is. I don't need overkill power that will just get me in touble. But that's just me

2Griffins
09-03-04, 12:40 PM
Sheesh bruce, you seem to be an *expert* on the issues regarding this PPC upgrade.....even insinuating I was spreading ignorance in another post when giving an opinion about warranty issues to another member.

We all are aware of what happens when our refrigerator breaks or our washing machine pukes, that doesn't mean we are all "pokey" or that we drive like your grandmother, in fact, to the contrary, the 9-3SS can be driven quite spiritedly without an ECU upgrade. You go ahead and buy your upgrade and drive with confidence knowing that you don't need all of us to buy one too, justifying your purchase.

I do know about chip upgrades and ECU modifications as I helped develope the chip that is probably in your brother's 944 Turbo when I worked with a well known tuner here in my area that specializes in Porsche. As such, I also know what Porsche's position was on such upgrades with regards to the warranty......I hope you have a lot of time on your hands if there is ever a warranty drivetrain issue with your car at Saab, and they discover your upgrade.

I am not anti-ECU upgrade, in fact, I am considering doing mine as I have modified many previous autos and I own a shop to do it in (I also support SEMA). I just had to voice my opinion though since it's not quite fair for the *experts* to come on here and tell us all what we are doing wrong when they may not be so well informed themselves. :-?

BTW, I think you meant *86* 944 Turbo?

oslowley
09-03-04, 05:44 PM
I've sat on the fence long enough, I'm tired of the "will it void my warranty questions" or even better "what's your fuel mileage with the chip (knowing that fuel consumption will almost definetely increase at the expense of the added power", hello who cares, if you're that tentative then don't buy it, I as well as others who have purchased know the risk we take with our warranty, I won't be a hypocrite and say that if something happens I won't take it in and try my luck, but if they say no, then guess what, they say no. So please if you have any reservations, please keep them to yourselves and let the people who have experience with the product (not second hand experience) be the ones who post.

Saba
09-03-04, 07:04 PM
So please if you have any reservations, please keep them to yourselves and let the people who have experience with the product (not second hand experience) be the ones who post.Sort of defeats the whole purpose of this forum.

moz
09-03-04, 07:33 PM
So please if you have any reservations, please keep them to yourselves and let the people who have experience with the product (not second hand experience) be the ones who post.Sort of defeats the whole purpose of this forum.

I agree.

oslowley
09-03-04, 08:40 PM
So please if you have any reservations, please keep them to yourselves and let the people who have experience with the product (not second hand experience) be the ones who post.Sort of defeats the whole purpose of this forum.

I agree.
You both missed the point, the "what about my warranty posts?" are getting old. It's a dead horse, the warranty is VOID if they find out. :roll:

Saba
09-03-04, 08:54 PM
This thread wasn't about warranty. It was only the people who are "sick" of such posts that raised the issue here. It was a request for technical input about what the PPC does. Then somebody piped in and accused us (me?) of procrastinating ("act like a man!"). My dyno guys asked what the PPC did. I said "dunno??". So I posted here to find out. As for asking about fuel consumption, I can't see what is wrong with that post. They simply wanted the facts to make an informed choice and the question was obviously directed at those in the know. I think somebody else has missed the point.

Like most purchases of this nature, people weigh up the pros and cons, don't deride them because they ask a lot of questions.

CallipNCSUsaab
09-03-04, 11:31 PM
I'm sure he blamed it on the PPC upgrade. Problem is, you don't know for sure that was the problem.

Bruce not sure why my comments about someone having troubles with the PPC for another model is such a hair raiser for you. Its the same thing members of this forum are getting for the SS so I wanted to point out a "bad case" I know of personally. It was certainlly the PPC update that caused the problem. Like I have said before he has had other mods for an extended amount of time now but do you think its a ka-winky dink he gets a timing problem and blows a vavle when he uploads the PPC and changes the timing of the engine?

Simon
10-03-04, 04:06 AM
You should always declare any existing hardware upgrades to your dealer prior to purchasing any software upgrades. Also you should not make any further hardware upgrades until you have consulted your dealer to ensure they are compatible with the software.

For example, if you are running BSR Stage 1/2 software and fit a 3" downpipe without upgrading the software to Stage 3, it can seriously damage your engine.

SS
10-03-04, 04:16 AM
For example, if you are running BSR Stage 1/2 software and fit a 3" downpipe without upgrading the software to Stage 3, it can seriously damage your engine.

Thats why i will be more than satisfied when my PPC comes in. No need for any additional hardware, less headache! But who knows, maybe i'll flip someday in the near future and go ape s-*t on hardware mods!!

Saba
10-03-04, 04:26 AM
For example, if you are running BSR Stage 1/2 software and fit a 3" downpipe without upgrading the software to Stage 3, it can seriously damage your engine.Well I was undecided about a 3" catback and the BSR PPC. Now I'm not :o . BSR only for now. I think I will get those 17"s instead of the cat.

I'm puzzled though, Paul confirmed that there was no difference between the Stage 1 and stage 2 PPC for the 2.0t, but the stage 2 has a catback, how is this compensated for in light of what Simon has said?

Paul
10-03-04, 04:44 AM
For example, if you are running BSR Stage 1/2 software and fit a 3" downpipe without upgrading the software to Stage 3, it can seriously damage your engine.Well I was undecided about a 3" catback and the BSR PPC. Now I'm not :o . BSR only for now. I think I will get those 17"s instead of the cat.

I'm puzzled though, Paul confirmed that there was no difference between the Stage 1 and stage 2 PPC for the 2.0t, but the stage 2 has a catback, how is this compensated for in light of what Simon has said?

There is a big difference between a cat-back system and a downpipe. The cat-back system will be fine with BSR stage 1 or 2 software.

joshd2012
10-03-04, 10:41 AM
I'm confused. I thought these Saabs had air flow sensors? Wouldn't the ECU recognize that there is more flow in the system and adjust itself? Even if you added a 3" DP, I thought the system would recognize the difference?

brucec32
11-03-04, 03:45 AM
Sheesh bruce, you seem to be an *expert* on the issues regarding this PPC upgrade.....even insinuating I was spreading ignorance in another post when giving an opinion about warranty issues to another member.

We all are aware of what happens when our refrigerator breaks or our washing machine pukes, that doesn't mean we are all "pokey" or that we drive like your grandmother, in fact, to the contrary, the 9-3SS can be driven quite spiritedly without an ECU upgrade. You go ahead and buy your upgrade and drive with confidence knowing that you don't need all of us to buy one too, justifying your purchase.

I do know about chip upgrades and ECU modifications as I helped develope the chip that is probably in your brother's 944 Turbo when I worked with a well known tuner here in my area that specializes in Porsche. As such, I also know what Porsche's position was on such upgrades with regards to the warranty......I hope you have a lot of time on your hands if there is ever a warranty drivetrain issue with your car at Saab, and they discover your upgrade.

I am not anti-ECU upgrade, in fact, I am considering doing mine as I have modified many previous autos and I own a shop to do it in (I also support SEMA). I just had to voice my opinion though since it's not quite fair for the *experts* to come on here and tell us all what we are doing wrong when they may not be so well informed themselves. :-?

BTW, I think you meant *86* 944 Turbo?

You need to learn to read CAREFULLY and not read into it what wasn't there. I never claimed to be ANY kind of expert. And nobody said anything about driving "pokey". The CAR is a little slow getting going. And it's all relative to what you're used to. Coming from a Jetta, I'm sure one would be impressed with it. Coming from a 540i sport I'm not. But the car costs half the price, so I'm not complaining. I would just appreciate an affordable upgrade to the power and could do without all the hysterical fear mongering going on. The result of that will be to shut down sales of such items unnecessarily and leave us complaining in a few years "there aren't any Saab Tuners out there"

Your OPINION about the warranty stuff was just false information. When it's wrong it isn't an opinion. It's just misinformation. An opinion is "Diet coke tastes great". "Your warranty will be voided" is just simply wrong. And I pointed that out. You probably know volumes more about the technical aspects of the upgrade than I ever will, but I know for a fact about the Magnuson Moss warranty act because I can go read it at numerous websites. And I know the behavior at a typical auto dealership. They barely have time to talk to you, much less delve into searching for previous turbo upgrades so they can deny warranty claims that they, the dealership, don't pay for anyway. THESE ARE NOT COMPANY OWNED STORES. Unless the owner of the dealership has a "hall monitor" mentality where he wants to catch people even though it costs himself their future business, the future business of their mod oriented friends, etc, then I don't think they have much to worry about.

brucec32
11-03-04, 03:49 AM
This thread wasn't about warranty. It was only the people who are "sick" of such posts that raised the issue here. It was a request for technical input about what the PPC does. Then somebody piped in and accused us (me?) of procrastinating ("act like a man!"). My dyno guys asked what the PPC did. I said "dunno??". So I posted here to find out. As for asking about fuel consumption, I can't see what is wrong with that post. They simply wanted the facts to make an informed choice and the question was obviously directed at those in the know. I think somebody else has missed the point.

Like most purchases of this nature, people weigh up the pros and cons, don't deride them because they ask a lot of questions.

First of all that was a joke phrase from a movie.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with wanting to know what the upgrade does to get the power. I am more irritated by the posts scattered about implying that you're basically destroying your engine, burning your warranty, and the sky is falling. Something that nobody has mentioned but that I will is that the reason these upgrades cost so much is because they are low-volume deals. If they sold more of them the price would go down. Go ask anyone who's chipped a VW or Audi 1.8T for $300. Keeping them a boutique item just keeps the price high.

brucec32
11-03-04, 04:01 AM
I'm sure he blamed it on the PPC upgrade. Problem is, you don't know for sure that was the problem.

Bruce not sure why my comments about someone having troubles with the PPC for another model is such a hair raiser for you. Its the same thing members of this forum are getting for the SS so I wanted to point out a "bad case" I know of personally. It was certainlly the PPC update that caused the problem. Like I have said before he has had other mods for an extended amount of time now but do you think its a ka-winky dink he gets a timing problem and blows a vavle when he uploads the PPC and changes the timing of the engine?

Ok, first of all....This PPC is not the same as THAT PPC. Just like GM made some lemon V8 engines in the early 80's that would cut off power to 4 cylinders to try to save fuel. They stank. I would not infer from that that their other V8 engines were bad. Different engine. Different PPC software.

The "ka-winky dink" here was that the other mods were probably more abuse-proof ones like exhausts and filters, etc, and that when Mr. eager got his new toy he pushed it to see what it would do until it broke. I see a LOT of abuse of vehicles out there by guys who love to drive fast. Jerky harsh control inputs, including on the throttle and clutch, bouncing off rev limiters repeatedly trying to eek out a faster start, etc. Race behavior. Max speed at the expense of max longevity. Just look at all the talk here of guys running to the track to get 1/4 mile slips. A fun hobby perhaps. But that's certainly not the type driving that is conducive to anything lasting long, modded or not. They're made to withstand reasonably spirited daily driving, not run the INDY 500 w/o pit stops. So if a guy wants to get one to improve his power a little around town, I think we should avoid comparing that to situations where guys racing the car are stressing the components to the max. And I will say that anybody who spends $600 on exhaust and filter upgrades to eek out 6 or 10 hp (like I see at the tuner websites) is probably looking for more than just better around town driveability.

I had a guy break my Toyota Supra on a test drive when I was selling it. A car that hadn't broken down in the previous 7 years. I was in the car with him. He drove like a maniac, jerked the shifter and shifted harshly. A most unpleasant ride. It still had the original clutch after all that time and worked great, yet this guy wasted it in less than 5 minutes. I then MADE him buy the car at my asking price. They're machines, not video games. Abuse them and you will lose them.

My point I guess is that driver abuse can destroy them faster than any chip can. They just haven't found a way to check for that at service departments yet. So if you're a competent driver who knows the difference in precision driving and crazy driving, I bet you'll have fewer problems in your modded car than a wild man driver in a stock model.

LinearSLT
11-03-04, 07:11 PM
All this car guy wants to know is that when he floors it in 3rd to pass a car on a two-lane road and the boost gauge goes up in the mid-red, will his car go kapluie ? That's all. No dropping the clutch, no slam-shifts, no burn-outs. :nono; abuse. If BSR took a 9-3 2.0t and ran it at full boost for an hour or a day on a speedway with no untoward effects, that would convince me. Because you sure as hell can do that with the 2.0t in normal trim.

As for your warranty. As my dealer says, if you wanna play, ya gotta pay. You can bet if it ever came to light that you pushed more hp out of the engine, Saab would disallow the claim and they'd be on solid ground. They wouldn't have to prove anything. This isn't a replacement ECU, it's an ECU designed to stress the engine more than normal. It bypasses all the manufacturers target parameters. It's not an air filter or a new set of shocks.

Even shocks aren't benign. A friend in Minnesota lost a case about 10 years ago versus Saab. His Saab 9000 developed cracked welds near the shock towers, which was a not-uncommon problem on that car. Saab claimed it was his Koni shocks that caused excess stress on the body and disallowed his claim. Jury upheld their version. I had stock shocks and springs on my '91 9000T and they fixed the welds under warranty.

We improve our cars becasue we want more driving enjoyment. But caveat emptor. Even if the dealer can't find the signs of tampering, Saab itself might if they check the ECU. Saab engine's very rarely blow up, so every failure is likely something they will study.