Next 9-5 to be rear drive?

[CosmicSaab]

At this link:

http://www.editorial.discountnewcars.com.au/mellor/mellor.nsf/story2/E5F92FDDE2B48AA3CA256E3200098684

It says that Saab is considering the use of the Zeta platform for the next 9-5. Zeta is a rear drive or all wheel drive platfor, there is no front drive option for it. Comments?

[20Ted]

There has been talk of the next 9-5 being AWD, because of the AWD available in Audi, Volvo, VW, Mercedes, and BMW.

[squishmann]

that's a good thing FWD cars get bashed all the time about being poor performers.


sucks for people who live in places where it snows but that just means you have to cough up the xtra 2k to get the AWD.

or maybe they'll make it standard


maybe we'll even see a I-6 for the next generation 9-5

[CosmicSaab]

that's a good thing FWD cars get bashed all the time about being poor performers.


sucks for people who live in places where it snows but that just means you have to cough up the xtra 2k to get the AWD.

or maybe they'll make it standard


maybe we'll even see a I-6 for the next generation 9-5

Well, GM does have a rear/AWD compatible I6, the Votec 4200, they could de-bore and de-stroke it and put it in the 9-5 no problem.

[fabric]

Saab/GM shouldn't have any problem putting any of the current Saab engines into a rear-drive platform. I think Saab should stick with 4 cylinder turbo's. I'd rather they do their thing than try to mimic what everyone else is doing. Otherwise, every car will shorly be the same, it's certainly already heading that way.

[Q-SAAB]

or maybe a twin-turbo 4.6 liter V-8 based on the current 2.3 turbo. Easy 500+ HP, would send Audi S8's scrambling...

<insert evil laugh here>

[CosmicSaab]

or maybe a twin-turbo 4.6 liter V-8 based on the current 2.3 turbo. Easy 500+ HP, would send Audi S8's scrambling...

<insert evil laugh here>

No. I can maybe see a Northstar V8 in there, but not with forced induction. And the 9-5 competes against the A6, not the A8.

[joshd2012]

Saabs have been FWD since forever. Shoot, their racing program was even FWD. I don't mind AWD (as it keeps the safety of FWD but adds performance of RWD), but if they go strickly RWD, that sort of removes the safety image.

[Q-SAAB]

The 9-5 does compete with the A6 on a cost/size basis, but I was thinking more along the lines of flagship-to-flagship, in which case the best option in a 4-door sedan to go against the performance of an S8 would be a tricked-out 9-5.

These are just pipe dreams, of course.

As for the northstar, it's a venerable engine, without a doubt. The forced-induction (supercharged) versions are very nice, and even the N/A has some pretty sweet numbers in terms of HP/Torque curves, but all that having been said, I'd have a hard time swallowing a cadillac engine in a SAAB.

I guess what it comes down to is the rhetorical question "When does a SAAB quit being a SAAB". Does the Vauxhall block do damage in that regard? Not really, not to me - it's still a swedish head, and that's where all the critical stuff takes place. Does the transmision source matter? Can't say, as long as it doesn't suck. Interior trim and ergonomics? Absolutely, to me, these are critical.

The 2005 STS will offer RWD/AWD too - the lines are getting blurier and blurier.

In some ways I miss the quirkiness of my old C900. I know that times change, economies of scale exist, etc, etc, etc, but as an enthusiast I do reserve the right to dream....

[CosmicSaab]

Saabs have been FWD since forever. Shoot, their racing program was even FWD. I don't mind AWD (as it keeps the safety of FWD but adds performance of RWD), but if they go strickly RWD, that sort of removes the safety image.

How would RWD remove the safety aspect? In many situitions RWD is safer. And with todays electronic nannys, RWD cars are very well behaved in all circumstances.

[CosmicSaab]

The 9-5 does compete with the A6 on a cost/size basis, but I was thinking more along the lines of flagship-to-flagship, in which case the best option in a 4-door sedan to go against the performance of an S8 would be a tricked-out 9-5.

These are just pipe dreams, of course.

As for the northstar, it's a venerable engine, without a doubt. The forced-induction (supercharged) versions are very nice, and even the N/A has some pretty sweet numbers in terms of HP/Torque curves, but all that having been said, I'd have a hard time swallowing a cadillac engine in a SAAB.

I guess what it comes down to is the rhetorical question "When does a SAAB quit being a SAAB". Does the Vauxhall block do damage in that regard? Not really, not to me - it's still a swedish head, and that's where all the critical stuff takes place. Does the transmision source matter? Can't say, as long as it doesn't suck. Interior trim and ergonomics? Absolutely, to me, these are critical.

The 2005 STS will offer RWD/AWD too - the lines are getting blurier and blurier.

In some ways I miss the quirkiness of my old C900. I know that times change, economies of scale exist, etc, etc, etc, but as an enthusiast I do reserve the right to dream....

They don't have any prosuction S/C Northstars. The XLR concept had one, but it never made it to production.

[Q-SAAB]

Indeed - both the Imaj and Evoq concept cars were spec'd with SC engines, but are not in production (yet?).

[joshd2012]

Saabs have been FWD since forever. Shoot, their racing program was even FWD. I don't mind AWD (as it keeps the safety of FWD but adds performance of RWD), but if they go strickly RWD, that sort of removes the safety image.

How would RWD remove the safety aspect? In many situitions RWD is safer. And with todays electronic nannys, RWD cars are very well behaved in all circumstances.

RWD are plenty safe until weather turns nasty. As soon as water or snow hits the pavement, a FWD car will act much more predictably than a RWD car any day. I don't care who makes the car, a FWD car will perform more predictably than a RWD car when the weather turns nasty. Predictability alone is a safety feature.

[CosmicSaab]

Saabs have been FWD since forever. Shoot, their racing program was even FWD. I don't mind AWD (as it keeps the safety of FWD but adds performance of RWD), but if they go strickly RWD, that sort of removes the safety image.

How would RWD remove the safety aspect? In many situitions RWD is safer. And with todays electronic nannys, RWD cars are very well behaved in all circumstances.

RWD are plenty safe until weather turns nasty. As soon as water or snow hits the pavement, a FWD car will act much more predictably than a RWD car any day. I don't care who makes the car, a FWD car will perform more predictably than a RWD car when the weather turns nasty. Predictability alone is a safety feature.

RWD is more predictable. For greater explination on why this is, I suggest looking through the Car and Driver forums (I am "CosmicSaab" over there, by the way) as there have been many discussions about this.

[8valvegrowl]

Not so much of it is purely driveline, but also where the engine is placed and the overall balance of the car.

Front Engine-RWD IS predictable in most cases, the biggest problem is understeer vs oversteer....it is far easier to get RWD into oversteer, which is fun...but not safe for the average driver. Most car chassis designers dial in a bit of mild understeer for this very reason. Front Engine-FWD tends to mild understeering characteristics, but with a little suspension tuning, you can set the car up how you like. The biggest advantage of Front Engine-FWD is that the large engine mass is directly over the powering wheels, providing traction on snow and the like. Also in slippery situations, an object being pulled is somewhat easier to control than an object being pushed...as you can steer the direction you want to go. Any rallyer will tell you that FWD is slightly counter intuitive to drive fast over non-paved surfaces...therefore it takes more skill.

Also...if it takes electronic 'nanny's" to make a chassis driveable or safe...then there is something wrong with the engineering in my book...

[Kidane]

Saabs have been FWD since forever. Shoot, their racing program was even FWD. I don't mind AWD (as it keeps the safety of FWD but adds performance of RWD), but if they go strickly RWD, that sort of removes the safety image.

How would RWD remove the safety aspect? In many situitions RWD is safer. And with todays electronic nannys, RWD cars are very well behaved in all circumstances.I agree. It's not fair to say that RWD is inherently unstable, it all depends on the driver and conditions.

That said, it took absolutely no effort to spin my Saab 900 out. :P

[Mattlach]

Saabs have been FWD since forever. Shoot, their racing program was even FWD.

Indeed.

In fact, Saab, unlike other car manufacturers have never made a non fwd production car.

They were FWD from the very start.

I wou;d be sad to see that charming aspect of the Saab go away, but maybe it is time for them to get with the times.

There are all kinds of problems with FWD designs. in the next few years we will see most if not all car manufacturers (except maybe the extreme budget end of the market) transition to either heavily computer controlled RWD or AWD solutions.

FWD, once way superior to its RWD counterparts is slowly becoming obsolete.

[moronputz]

As has been said before, neither FWD or RWD is inherintly better than the other. It all depends on the overall balance.

The biggest issue for Saab is the ability to get power up to competitive levels against their direct competition. FWD is limited in the amount of HP it can get to the ground without unwanted torque steer etc. The best solution is 4WD in this respect, but adds weight, complexity and, ultimately, cost, which may end up pushing the 9-5 up half a market segment (which may not be a bad thing given that the 9-3SS is so close in size anyway).

There are plenty of good platforms in the GM empire that Saab could use if they wanted to go up in size, the trick is using one that offers them the drivetrain versatility the engineers would want.

Then there's the issue of which engine to use as the base. They've already telegraphed that they are dropping the old Saab engine by using the new GM engine in the 9-3SS. Ultimately GM will push Saab to cut costs and use an existing engine rather than develop a new one. If that means they have to go to a 6 (or even an 8) so what, as long as Saab are able to do the final engineering and make it a "true" Saab engine in respect of performance, etc.

My 2 cents worth.

[CosmicSaab]

Saab could really use an V8. A nice I6, possibly even based off the Vortec 4200 would also be nice, but I doubt the I6 will happen. It looks like V6s are in the future though.

Actually I guess Saab is getting both an I6 and a V8, huh. :-?

[ragtopcav]

There are all kinds of problems with FWD designs. in the next few years we will see most if not all car manufacturers (except maybe the extreme budget end of the market) transition to either heavily computer controlled RWD or AWD solutions.

FWD, once way superior to its RWD counterparts is slowly becoming obsolete.Won't become obsolete because of cost, the assembly methods of having the power unit/powertrain all up one end is inherently better than speading it all over the car, there will always be a price premium on rwd and awd.
As the likes of hybrid technology becomes more important with such features as a dynobrake fwd will become even more dominant.