chargecooler failure and abbott responsabilities... [Archive] - SaabCentral Forums

: chargecooler failure and abbott responsabilities...


aeroman
30-01-04, 05:30 PM
MY chargecooler blown because of too much boost :evil:
Before buying it I asked Giles fairwether (abbott sales man) and abbott's tehcnicians, if the chargecooler can support 1.4bar with reliability. The answer was:

Dear Sir

The new chargecooler will accept 1.5 bar boost reliably, it has got 18 guage
sides that have been roded securely through the middle of the chargecooler
for extra strength, we did have problems with the early ones in 1990, but
the problem is cured with 100% reliabilty.

Hope this helps.

Kind regards

Giles Fairweather
Tuning & Sales Manager
Abbott Racing Motorsport
Tel: +44 (0)1255 870636
Fax: +44 (0)1255 870057
Mobile +44 07836 297636
Web: www.abbottracing.com
Email: giles@abbottracing.com
----- Original Message -----
From: <rmariani@negocia.fr>
To: "Giles Fairweather" <giles@abbottracing.com>
Sent: Friday, July 05, 2002 3:09 PM
Subject: another question about your chargecooler

the message I sent him before buying the chargecooler:

>
> i would like to purchase in the future a chargecooler kit but i heard that
your
> chargecooler doesn't support more than 12 psi (boost), is it true?
> thanks
>>



Now Abbott told mr that they will sent me a new one for 150 special deal :evil: :evil:
I don't have to spend any they have done a big error!! I can't understand how they can make such mistakes, morever I really don't like to be taken for a stupid man :evil: :evil:

Marrk
31-01-04, 04:56 AM
What they will say is how can you prove that you didn't exceed the SWP of the piece of kit. Difficult one to call. I would think from a good customer relations point that they should replace it free of charge.

Johann F
31-01-04, 05:10 AM
How much boost were you running at the time? - also remember that manifold pressure is much less than that in the chargecooer due to pressure loss accross it. It's possible that the boost can sharply peak without it being registered on your gauge - esp without an APC to control it's rare rise. Still pretty poor of them not to offer a free replacement.

aeroman
31-01-04, 05:19 AM
How much boost were you running at the time? - also remember that manifold pressure is much less than that in the chargecooer due to pressure loss accross it. It's possible that the boost can sharply peak without it being registered on your gauge - esp without an APC to control it's rare rise. Still pretty poor of them not to offer a free replacement.


I was running 1.35 bar, but the problem is that they told me yesterday that the chargecooler can't support more than 1.2bar, and they wrote me 8 months ago before I bought it that it supports 1.5 bar with reliability!!

nutcase
31-01-04, 05:22 AM
If you have that in writing from them, then I think you have a case. You got to keep at tehm until they relent I guess.

Alex
31-01-04, 05:59 AM
How much boost were you running at the time? - also remember that manifold pressure is much less than that in the chargecooer due to pressure loss accross it.

The design of the Pace cores used in the chargecoolers is such that there is virtually zero pressure drop across them.

tandino
31-01-04, 06:56 AM
Personally i think this is typical of Abbotts aftersales customer service (or lack of...) and this for me compounds the fact that they are only interested in making a sale and not interested in any support thereafter,
I know of 2 9000 owners who had problems with Abbotts workmanship,
One had problems with their big valve head and another had problems immediately after a gearbox/LSD/Clutch rebuild - both of these flaws Abbott refused to accept any liability or compensation towards the cost of replacement.....
I personally wouldnt touch them with a bargepole - overpriced and overated imho......
My views however dont help you with your problem,
I would send them the copy of the email you recieved from Giles with him stating that the core could support 1.5 bar - threaten legal action if you dont get a replacement :evil: ,
Very poor indeed......

Pete

rage
31-01-04, 08:46 AM
I was looking at the intercooler on the VX220 Turbo and noticed the max pressure on it was 1 bar. Seems a bit low to me? But then it is a piddly little thing not much bigger than a c900 unit.

Johann F
31-01-04, 08:57 AM
virtually zero pressure drop - thers must be some - I can hardly believe it's virtualy none :-??

aeroman
31-01-04, 09:20 AM
Personally i think this is typical of Abbotts aftersales customer service (or lack of...) and this for me compounds the fact that they are only interested in making a sale and not interested in any support thereafter,
I know of 2 9000 owners who had problems with Abbotts workmanship,
One had problems with their big valve head and another had problems immediately after a gearbox/LSD/Clutch rebuild - both of these flaws Abbott refused to accept any liability or compensation towards the cost of replacement.....
I personally wouldnt touch them with a bargepole - overpriced and overated imho......
My views however dont help you with your problem,
I would send them the copy of the email you recieved from Giles with him stating that the core could support 1.5 bar - threaten legal action if you dont get a replacement :evil: ,
Very poor indeed......

Pete





I already sent the copy of the emailed that i received from Giles with a letter abour my discontent about the way they treat me.
I am waiting for the answer on monday.

Alex
31-01-04, 09:34 AM
virtually zero pressure drop - thers must be some - I can hardly believe it's virtualy none :-??

The insides of a charge cooler are completely differennt to that of an intercooler, the air isn't forced down a series of small tubes. What pressure drop there is will be far less than that of an IC.

Johann F
31-01-04, 10:35 AM
Yep :oops: just looked at the Pace website and the charge cooler is the reverse of the intercooler - the water goes through the channels and the air flows around them.

niko
31-01-04, 05:22 PM
Anyway Aeroman, please keep us informed about the issue of your problem.
I think that there is so much saab owner reading this forum that Abbott sales department must take care of the issue. A bad reputation is so easy to create with few problems with customers that have the ability to reach the public...like aeroman and this forum for example.
But i think that Abbott sales department is enough clever to see that not exchanging the chargecooler can be seen as totally unfair, and an inapropriate way to hold good clients and build a solid reputation.

Matthew
31-01-04, 05:57 PM
If at the point of purchase you were relying on Abbott's promise that the chargecooler would withstand 1.5bar pressure, then clearly the product is not fit for that purpose.

Stating that the chargecooler was okay at 1.5bar would have become part of the contract between yourself and Abbotts. Afterall, you would not have bought the product otherwise.

If this should ever come to court, then the outcome will rest on evidence.

aeroman
02-02-04, 04:06 AM
I am waiting for the answer of abbott today...

Eric van Spelde
02-02-04, 06:26 AM
How much boost were you running at the time? - also remember that manifold pressure is much less than that in the chargecooer due to pressure loss accross it.

The design of the Pace cores used in the chargecoolers is such that there is virtually zero pressure drop across them.

Er, seeing as they quote a surprisingly modest 140 cfm flow (versus 105 for a stock c900 IC), 'virtually zero pressure drop' might be stretching things a bit. Especially as the likes of Spearco, PWR et al claim anywhere inbetween 300 and 1,000 cfm for their air/liquid IC's...

Alanb
02-02-04, 06:36 AM
Aeroman,

I'm interested to see what reply you get. I do hope they realise the impression that a negative response will have. Many potential customers read this forum.

Personally, I think you have a very strong case given the written evidence you have. From past experience, it would be likely that a County Court Small Claims judgement would go in your favour and I'm sure Abbott knows this.

Alanb

Saab-Daniel
02-02-04, 08:41 AM
I'm with you on that one aeroman... It's clear to me that you have purchased your item with false information, and with the two emails you will have more than enough evidence to take it to court... When you get your reply from Abott, let us know... If the letter does not meet what you have expected, phone them and talk to them instead, maybe record the conversation, that is what I would do... This way, they will have to answere your questions and you would have it all on tape...
Daniel.

aeroman
02-02-04, 10:43 AM
I had the reply of abbott:

Abbott consents yo send me a new one :)
Giles fairwether has been professional and comercial.
After all is is normal I was not in the wrong.

tandino
02-02-04, 10:49 AM
Glad to hear you got everything sorted out....
Still at least i know you can only run to 1.5 bar :cheesy:

Pete.

Alex
02-02-04, 11:16 AM
Thats an excellent result, Aeroman.

Abbott 900
02-02-04, 11:45 AM
I had the reply of abbott:

Abbott consents yo send me a new one :)
Giles fairwether has been professional and comercial.
After all is is normal I was not in the wrong.

Fantastic news... Good to hear that bit of persistance paid off...

Johann F
02-02-04, 12:00 PM
Good news :D So what did he say about the max pressure you can run?

aeroman
02-02-04, 12:02 PM
Glad to hear you got everything sorted out....
Still at least i know you can only run to 1.5 bar :cheesy:

Pete.

At this time I am working hard pete, you will probably not be the daddy at nest PE :cheesy: :cheesy:

aeroman
02-02-04, 12:04 PM
Good news :D So what did he say about the max pressure you can run?

1.2 is OK 1.5 bar sometimes (not often)

thanks to all of you...

Matthew
02-02-04, 12:23 PM
Really glad to hear that everything's worked out. Guess we'll be seeing a "brand new unused Abbott chargecooler" advertised n the Classified when you replace it with something that can handle 2bar ready for the next PE :cheesy:

aeroman
02-02-04, 12:37 PM
Really glad to hear that everything's worked out. Guess we'll be seeing a "brand new unused Abbott chargecooler" advertised n the Classified when you replace it with something that can handle 2bar ready for the next PE :cheesy:

Yep check the classifieds soon :cheesy: :cheesy:

Alex
12-02-04, 08:47 AM
Er, seeing as they quote a surprisingly modest 140 cfm flow (versus 105 for a stock c900 IC), 'virtually zero pressure drop' might be stretching things a bit. Especially as the likes of Spearco, PWR et al claim anywhere inbetween 300 and 1,000 cfm for their air/liquid IC's...

I find it strange that Abbott tested the standard IC at such a low flow, 105cfm is only equivalent to about 70bhp.

The 'zero pressure drop' claim is straight from the Pace website and applies to all their charge cooler cores.

Diggler
12-02-04, 10:20 AM
I'm surprised they did that for you. I will never buy anything from those guys. They seem to have serious attitude problems and don't typically stand by their products. for more details see:

www.twinsaabs.com
select the drop down box for jeffs page, the select engine then select abbott charge cooler.

Matthew
12-02-04, 11:55 AM
Seems Abbott told Jeff the chargecooler was rated to only 12PSI, which if different to what they told aeroman. They just don't know, do they? :roll:

Still, the Spearco 'cooler Jeff's now got sounds good... rated to 30PSI with just 0.25PSI pressure drop :)

Eric van Spelde
12-02-04, 01:28 PM
I find it strange that Abbott tested the standard IC at such a low flow, 105cfm is only equivalent to about 70bhp.
Er, there is no hp rating equivalent to an intercooler flow rating. You could as well run a 1,000 hp engine with a c900 intercooler if you accept the associated pressure drop (meaning that the big a** turbo you're running to achieve 1,000 hp puts out 15 psi while you only have 10 at the intake. As long as 10 psi nets you 1,000 hp, everything is hunky dory. It's just not the most efficient way of doing things).

FWIW, a 9000 IC flows 81 cfm and a 9-5 one 76 cfm. And yes, that includes the 225/230/250 hp Aero versions...

Alex
12-02-04, 03:58 PM
There is a flow associated with the hp developed by the engine. If you were running 1000bhp then the IC would be trying to flow roughly 1500cfm. I agree that the inlet pressure to the IC would be enormous as would the pressure drop across it.

I find it strange that the IC inlet pressure that Abbott performed their flow tests at is so low that the flows achieved are completely non-representative of what the IC would see in actual engine running.

jefspg
12-02-04, 05:20 PM
I'm surprised they gave you a new one. They told me to piss off. At least I know I wasn't the only one that had a blow out. I didn't have an email or anything that stated the max psi to run, so I didn't have a case against them.

Luckily, you did. I would still sell that thing on ebay and get your money for a nice spearco unit. You can buy one that matches the abbott one almost exactly. You can probably get away with using the same crappy hoses they give you in the kit.

aeroman
13-02-04, 09:12 AM
I would still sell that thing on ebay and get your money for a nice spearco unit. You can buy one that matches the abbott one almost exactly. You can probably get away with using the same *** hoses they give you in the kit.
Hi Jef,
Where to find the spearco chargecoooler? what is the price? Which spearco model do you have on your saab?
thanks

jefspg
14-02-04, 10:38 AM
http://www.turboneticsinc.com/

They have an intercooler section.

I bought the 2-270 which is just a bit high. The 2-265 would be an easier fit in the engine bay.

The price can be found cheaper by asking them for a local supplier. The local supplier should charge about 20-30% less than list price. At least he did for me!
I don't remember the shop's name, but spearco will tell you the closest one to you.

Ordering their paper catalog is well worth the $5. It contains all of the different core's with all of the flow ratings and pressure drops, with prices.
There should also be an online price catalog to download.

aeroman
14-02-04, 11:50 AM
http://www.turboneticsinc.com/

They have an intercooler section.

I bought the 2-270 which is just a bit high. The 2-265 would be an easier fit in the engine bay.

The price can be found cheaper by asking them for a local supplier. The local supplier should charge about 20-30% less than list price. At least he did for me!
I don't remember the shop's name, but spearco will tell you the closest one to you.

Ordering their paper catalog is well worth the $5. It contains all of the different core's with all of the flow ratings and pressure drops, with prices.
There should also be an online price catalog to download.


thanks a lot Jef, I checked the local dealer but they are no french importers (it is not the first time, in fact there are french nothing) but there is a Belgium importer, I will ask him and I'll order the catalog.

Do you think I can use the abbott pump, small radiator and electrical parts with the spearco chargecooler?

Alex
15-02-04, 02:45 PM
I would consider using a better pump that the one that Abbott supply. Their pump is really a modified caravan water pump and doesn't flow that much water.

The Volvo 440/460/480 series has an auxilary electric water pump which is suitable, or you could get the Electric Booster Pump made by Davies, Craig pty.