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: SAAB Lancia s600


nestoraero
3rd January 2004, 10:50 PM
Did you guys knew that arownd 1980,the famous lancia delta was sold in Sweden also as SAAB/Lancia s 600?


I saw one of these in Greece and I was really surprized when I saw this


It had front lancia badge and rear saab/lancia,like the one in the picture.


[Mod Edit: Images no longer online - Saba]

From http://jpowell.tripod.com/saab-rarities/:
Yes, it really says "SAAB LANCIA". According to Larry West, SAAB sold these Lancia's in Sweden. One was badged the Saab-Lancia 600, the other just Lancia A112. Saab wound up selling them as part of the joint development effort with Fiat SpA. This development program resulted in the Saab 9000, the Lancia Thema and Chroma, and the Alfa-Romeo 164. This might also be the same as the Lancia Delta.[/url]

MonkeyMan
3rd January 2004, 10:52 PM
How embarrassing!

BEN

D. Wolfe
3rd January 2004, 10:54 PM
Looks surprisingly like the old VW Dasher and VW Scricco Sidewinder!!!

nestoraero
3rd January 2004, 11:10 PM
Can you see any differences?????

http://jpowell.tripod.com/saab-rarities/saab-lancia/saab-lancia-600-1.jpg

http://autopress.free.fr/images/DELTA.jpg

The delta was the car of the year 1980!!!!
I don't think that anybody has never seen this one....
http://www.neko.co.jp/guest/magazine/carmagazine/223/hf.jpg

baco99
4th January 2004, 01:02 AM
i would LOVE to have a Delta Integrale right now to beat around in and maybe AutoX.

Stefano
4th January 2004, 06:12 AM
Yes, it really says "SAAB LANCIA". According to Larry West, SAAB sold these Lancia's in Sweden. One was badged the Saab-Lancia 600, the other just Lancia A112. Saab wound up selling them as part of the joint development effort with Fiat SpA. This development program resulted in the Saab 9000, the Lancia Thema and Chroma, and the Alfa-Romeo 164. This might also be the same as the Lancia Delta.[/url]


The A112 was another car, made by Autobianchi which at that time was under Lancia. A city car based on the Morris Mini.

And please, note the difference between a Delta Integrale (AWD, 2.0 turbo 220hp...) and a very normal 1.6. Saying that the Saab 600 was like the Integrale is like comparing a non-turbo 9-3 to the Pikes Peak one.....

nestoraero
4th January 2004, 10:07 AM
Stefano.
If you check the site where I got this link,you will see a picture of the autobianchi.They are not saying that the delta was sold as A112.
As for the comparison between the integrale and the normal 1.6 or 1.4,of course there is nothing to compare in these 2 cars.
The first one is just to move around and the second one is a "war" machine.
I posted the picture just bacause there may be some guys here that only recognise the delta by the integrale edition(famous rally car).

bassist5
4th January 2004, 12:08 PM
I love the Delta. I've got a model of the Integrale one. T's a very nice car. Did Saab also make their version of the A112? I'd like to see that one.

kemosaabey
4th January 2004, 04:03 PM
Once had a Delta HF turbo Martini. Not quite an integrale, but quite fast :D Used a blow through carb setup.

Great fun until the rust got to it....

MonkeyMan
4th January 2004, 07:42 PM
I'd much rather have a CRX than one of those. Probably handles better, too!

BEN

bassist5
4th January 2004, 08:15 PM
I'd much rather have a CRX than one of those. Probably handles better, too!

BEN

Meh.. Lancia over Honda? :nono;

MonkeyMan
4th January 2004, 08:53 PM
No no no...Honda over Lancia.

BEN

bassist5
4th January 2004, 10:00 PM
****, that's what I meant... Two week long break = no sleep for me. Sorry.. What I meant: "Honda over Lancia? :nono; "

Lancias are damn fine cars.

nasaab2.3
4th January 2004, 10:31 PM
i was gonna say nestoraero, that first picture looks a lot like a good ralley/drift car, then i scrolled down, and oh, i've seen that before, lol

~justin

nice find though

MonkeyMan
4th January 2004, 10:53 PM
I know bassist5, I was just confirming your suspicions. The CRX is, in my opinion, one of the greatest budget sports cars ever made.

BEN

nasaab2.3
4th January 2004, 10:59 PM
you think the crx is a good car???? i think yeah, it's a good car for when you have no money and you need something that is semi quick and is cheap, but when you start to see little 18 yo's putting thousands of dollars into them to make them keep up with an dodge ram 2500 turbo diesel that can run 12's with only 500 in mods... i just think it's dumb, those car's look really really ugly modded, and they are just like civics, everyone has them, and they shouldn't be allowed to be modded, why can't people be unique?

i would so take that lancia over a honda anyday (except the s2000), and i would turn it into a ralley car, and cut down a ton of trees behind my house and make a ralley track! and then i'd get good, and go pro, and go pikes peak!

~justin

MonkeyMan
4th January 2004, 11:11 PM
Do your homework man...there is no Dodge Ram diesel on this earth that will run 12's with such a small sum. Hell, I doubt you could even make a dodge diesel run 12's, period! Second of all, yes they are fugly when riced out; but I suppose that gives us all something to laugh at. Finally, they are some of the most accomodating cars in the world when it comes to modding, especially engine swaps. Rip out the stock D16, put in a B16 from a newer civic, and right there you will be hitting 13s with minor work. Slap a T3/T4 turbo onto that engine (fabrication necessary; Honda Tuning has a turbo CRX project car), and suddenly high 11's are very possible.

BEN

http://resource.crx.org/feature/images/december/jon5.jpg

nasaab2.3
4th January 2004, 11:44 PM
i have done my homework pal, i'm in highschool!

i didn't know that you used the civics and crxs as a reason to laugh, i thought you liked them.

and of course they have the most flexibility of modding, everyone has them, so they make all kinds of products for them, like 50 different styles of euro tailights, so yours wont be the same as the kid next door.

and diesels can be really really fast, slap on a 6 inch exhaust from turbo-back, a new ecu, intake, and a bigger turbo, and you'll be hitting 12's

here is a video of an f350 diesel, just watch:
http://www.sfidocks.com/F350Run.wmv

here is one of a dodge ram diesel, just watch dude:
http://www.dieseldynamics.com/videos/mm02/1176-jim_f.mpg

so you see pal, diesel's are fast!

~justin

DeLorean
4th January 2004, 11:48 PM
I don't even know where "lancia" comes from :oops:

heavy_t
5th January 2004, 06:44 AM
Why are you guys so obsessed with Hondas?

MonkeyMan
5th January 2004, 08:59 AM
I don't know if it counts as obsession, but there is only one honda I would ever be seen in... :D

Of course I laugh at pretentious pieces of riced out cr*p, who doesn't? I haven't gotten around to watching those videos yet (56k here), but I promise you I will. I also promise you that any honda is more economical to make fast than a diesel truck, in fact aside from the old american v-8's and possibly the I-6 in a supra, Honda engines are some of the easiest to squeeze power out of.

I never have understood the whole "fast truck" thing anyways...do you really need to haul lumber and concrete around that fast? I suppose if you're not a big fan of turning or looking good.

...oh wait, I've done some homework, too. A stage 3 kit from dieseldynamics costs almost $3400 bucks, that's close to a Jackson Racing supercharger!! And that will only give you an estimated 140-190 HP gain for your Ford diesel! You will need a much bigger gain than that to make a dualie run 12s.

I'm not sold yet.

BEN

heavy_t
5th January 2004, 09:09 AM
My point is that we started off talking about a Lancia. Yet somehow I knew it wouldn't be too long before someone was mentioning Hondas and r*cers. :roll:

Saba
5th January 2004, 09:20 AM
Can you see any differences?????


http://autopress.free.fr/images/DELTA.jpg

The delta was the car of the year 1980!!!!
I don't think that anybody has never seen this one....
[img]Looks like a Hyundai!

heavy_t
5th January 2004, 09:25 AM
Hyundai Pony!

http://www.cs.washington.edu/homes/miryung/images/Pony.gif

I used to know of someone who had a Hyundai Pony pickup with a 2.0 16v Calibra Turbo engine in.

kemosaabey
5th January 2004, 02:23 PM
Yep! Another Giugiaro design, on a bad day....

I love the Alfetta though, must post some pics of my grans '78 GTV 2000 coupe.

bassist5
5th January 2004, 08:12 PM
I don't even know where "lancia" comes from :oops:


Italia!

bassist5
5th January 2004, 08:17 PM
i have done my homework pal, i'm in highschool!

So am I.. That doesn't mean I do my homework.


Anyhow. I don't know.. CRXs.. I really don't like them, mostly cause the only ones I've seen are all modded out and ****.. It's sooooo stupid. No one cares about flexibility of modding. Whether you have one spoiler and 24" rims or two spoilers and Euro lights- You still have a damn modded out CRX.

Fast pickups are pointless.


(That's just my opinion)

MonkeyMan
5th January 2004, 08:56 PM
Thank you, thank you. :)

Now, about these lancias :cheesy: , the guy who designed these is the same dude who designed the 9000? That's messed up. Like someone said...must have been a bad day.

BEN

Licence
6th January 2004, 05:57 AM
I've never understood why Giugiaro is so rated as a designer. His cars are always tidy but boring. The 9000 always looked better after it was SAAB-ised into the CS.

Secondly I think the (un-modified) CRX Mk2 is one of the best looking cars ever (The Mk1 is okay but a bit too Civic and the Mk3 is a totally different beast with it's daft hardtop/roadster thing). Maybe it's an American thing, familiarity breeds contempt etc., I hardly ever see any and I cant remember ever seeing a customised one.

heavy_t
6th January 2004, 06:11 AM
Giugiaro gave us the Morris Ital - even if it was just a restyle:

http://austinrover.mg-rover.org/images/ado28ital_01.jpg

ragtopcav
6th January 2004, 06:45 AM
Giugiaro gave us the Morris Ital - even if it was just a restyle:

http://austinrover.mg-rover.org/images/ado28ital_01.jpgIt was a re arrangement of no style :evil:

MonkeyMan
6th January 2004, 07:41 AM
Secondly I think the (un-modified) CRX Mk2 is one of the best looking cars ever (The Mk1 is okay but a bit too Civic and the Mk3 is a totally different beast with it's daft hardtop/roadster thing). Maybe it's an American thing, familiarity breeds contempt etc., I hardly ever see any and I cant remember ever seeing a customised one.

Only you guys got the MkIII "CRX," over here it's called the Del Sol, and they are nothing like the true CRXs...heavy, floppy (chassis), and ugly. I've seen some nice first-gens, but they're pretty rare in nice condition. CRXs do tend to rust.

BEN

8valvegrowl
18th October 2004, 11:53 AM
My girlfriend had the second gen CRX. I would hardly call it a "budget sports car", more like cheaper civic, sporty body. The 1.6L four was adequate in power, and the handling was good due to the low mass/low CG. But frankly, the car felt flimsy and a Miata could run rings around it on the AutoX course or in the twisties. Plus, the fact that it is cheap and plentiful means that it is the Weapon(R, of course) of choice for your local friendly rice/mestizo crowd(Wings West 4 Eva! .werd.).

As to the Lancia, the Delta is very fun and very rust prone!
I'm a big fan of the Beta

http://www.allsportauto.com/english/lancia_beta_monte_carlo.php

900t
18th October 2004, 04:49 PM
Do your homework man...there is no Dodge Ram diesel on this earth that will run 12's with such a small sum. Hell, I doubt you could even make a dodge diesel run 12's, period! Second of all, yes they are fugly when riced out; but I suppose that gives us all something to laugh at. Finally, they are some of the most accomodating cars in the world when it comes to modding, especially engine swaps. Rip out the stock D16, put in a B16 from a newer civic, and right there you will be hitting 13s with minor work. Slap a T3/T4 turbo onto that engine (fabrication necessary; Honda Tuning has a turbo CRX project car), and suddenly high 11's are very possible.

BEN

http://resource.crx.org/feature/images/december/jon5.jpg

It all makes sense, if we are talking 1/8th mile!! :lol:

Mag-X
18th October 2004, 09:48 PM
Yeah, I'm sure honda's are great little cars, but it's been killed for me. I can remember looking out at the parking lot at the high school last year and seeing a whole row CRXs, Civics, and mostly Integras. All with the most rediclous mods.

I'd say that little Lancia is ugly there, but I suppose it was pretty nice in the 80's. I get the ugly car comment about my C900 all the time, so to each his own I suppose...

raske9k
18th October 2004, 10:10 PM
Civics and CRXs are girls cars, in fact ALL hondas are girl's cars, and that is a fact!. End the honda talk.



<runs for cover>

jetman
18th October 2004, 10:17 PM
Civics are stale boring econoboxes. Getting excited about them one way or another is like getting excited about porridge. "oooh, you put rasins in it, how decadent"

Licence
19th October 2004, 03:08 PM
Do you Americans get different Hondas to us Europeans?

Honda seem to have a different image either side of the Atlantic. From what I've read Honda in the US seem to have the same image as Citroen have in the UK at the moment (cheap small cars for kids to modify badly and boring large cars for the grandads).

In the UK the image seems to be hi-tech cars for doctors who don't want a bling Lexus and screaming Type-Rs for the loadsamoney Impreza/Evo mob to race around in.

danrotman
19th October 2004, 10:31 PM
Lancia -v- Honda

FWIW, Lancia have won the WRC 10 times (6 in a row!!) times versus Honda's 0.

Lancia also competed in Formula 1 in the 50's and dominated for 3 years (Lancia D50) before the design was taken over by Ferrari to become the basis for their famed "Super Squalo".

Lancia was the first European manufacturer to produce a FWD V8 (with a Ferrari engine, no less)

The 60's Lancia Fulvias are a thing of beauty (although the Saab 96 was a better rallycar)

These days, Lancia are part of Fiat, which makes them second cousins twice removed to Saab (both have some GM ownership). They nevertheless produce some interesting cars.

OTOH, I would never claim they were expecially rustproof.

Honda makes excellent engines, then places them in bodies of dubious rigidity and proven poor safety performance- the current Civic scores three stars in NCAP testing- All Saabs (except them Jap and Yank ones) score five stars.

Saab designed the HVAC, brakes & suspension of the Lancia Saab 600 which then won European Car of the Year 1n 1980. The body was a Guigaro design. To classify Guigaro as a dud is to consign the 105 Alfa Romeo (Guilia), the Lamborghini Muira, the Maserati Bora, the Lamborghini Countach and Diablo, as well as many, many other landmark cars including the 9000 to the dustbin. You guys should do your homework before mouthing off.

Look up the firsts that Lancia pioneered - including monococque bodies and compare them to Honda, and you will see that just 'cos you ain't heard of them, Lancia is a marque worthy of our respect. Honda OTOH makes lots of bad econoboxes, some excellent motorbikes and has made a pretty good Formula 1 engine (Honda F1 chassis come from the UK) Of course they had a fairly good driver in one A Senna.

Dan

benji9k
20th October 2004, 01:43 AM
How much of the 9000's design was Lancia derived/influenced?

danrotman
20th October 2004, 02:36 AM
<<snip>> How much of the 9000's design was Lancia derived/influenced?<<snip>>

Not a great deal, according to the book on the creation of the 9K.

The genesis of the project was a realisation by Saab/Fiat/Peugeot that none had the cash to develop a new large car platform "Type 4", so a consortium was created to design the major structures and systems for a shared car.

Peugeot pulled out early on, leaving the Italians and Swedes. In the end, of the structure, only the floorpan, A & B pillars survived the process, and some key HVAC systems, airbags etc were shared.

My understanding is that Fiat's expertise was in the robotised manufacture, while most of the systems were done by the Swedes.

The products turned out to be the 9K, the Alfa Romeo 164 (their 1st big FWD sedan), the Fiat Croma and the Lancia Thema. Engines ran from a 1.6 (83bhp) in the Croma to the Lancia's 8.32 32V (3.0l Ferrari V8 202bhp) with Saab offering the most powerful variant- the 9K Aero offering 167kW -225bhp.

Three different rear suspensions were developed- the 9k's was a variation on the tried and tested 99/C900 dead beam rear. Alfa and Lancia shared a strut type rear end, and Fiat had semi trailing arms. I think the front end was much the same across all cars.

Guigiaro styled the 9K, the Croma and the Thema, while the 164 carried a Pininfarina badge.

Fiat made the croma until 1996. It is probably the least desirable of all "Type 4' Cars

Lancia produced cars 1984-1994 with engines ranging from the (Beta derived 2.0l 120bhp) up to the Ferrari engine. There was also an excedingly ugly LWB version and a station wagon, I think there also may have been a coupť but I'm not sure.

Alfa 164 was introduced in 1987 and they made 273,000 cars until 1997. There was a diesel variant as well as the wonderful 192bhp 3.0l V6. Interestingly, there was also a four wheel drive version from 1990.

As per usual, Saab persisted longest with the car, making 503,000 from 1984-1998. The basic architecture continues with the 95.

In all, the Type 4 shared architecture concept could not be said to be a success. The demands of the different partners were too diverse, and few of the benefits of sharing development were realised.

Dan
[/quote]

Paco
20th October 2004, 05:12 AM
I always thought the Peugeot 605 was based on the same platform, it looks almost identical to a 164...

http://images.google.co.uk/images?q=tbn:obZH9nQICNAJ:www.keminmaanautotalo.co m

http://www.alfa-romeo.ru/cars/models/164/164_1.jpg

Stefano
20th October 2004, 05:17 AM
It was designed by Pininfarina in the same years, I think it's the only similarity they have. People say Pininfarina played so smart that they could sell the same car design to two different manufacturers!

The Alfa looks much better, anyway 8)

danrotman
20th October 2004, 06:03 AM
The wheelbase of the 605 is 2800mm x 1800mm wide
The 9K is 2667 x 1765 wide

Maybe that why Peugeot pulled out- they might have wanted a bigger car. BTW, I think that the 9K feels more spacious than a 605

Dan

Licence
20th October 2004, 06:16 AM
People say Pininfarina played so smart that they could sell the same car design to two different manufacturers!

They've done it before with the Morris Oxford and Peugeot 404.

To classify Guigaro as a dud is to consign the 105 Alfa Romeo (Guilia), the Lamborghini Muira, the Maserati Bora, the Lamborghini Countach and Diablo, as well as many, many other landmark cars including the 9000 to the dustbin. You guys should do your homework before mouthing off.

According to the official Lamborghini website the Muira, Countach and Diablo were designed by Marcelo Ghandini. It mentions Bertone as part designer of the Muira though (was Guigaro at Bertone at that time?). What was that about homework?

FWIW, Lancia have won the WRC 10 times (6 in a row!!) times versus Honda's 0.

Have Honda ever entered a full out works challenge to the WRC? I mean SAAB have never won NASCAR but that doesn't make SAABs crap.

Honda makes excellent engines, then places them in bodies of dubious rigidity and proven poor safety performance- the current Civic scores three stars in NCAP testing- All Saabs (except them Jap and Yank ones) score five stars.

The 2001 Honda Civic has a 4 star NCAP rating beaten only by the 2003 Renault Meganne and the 2004 Vauxhall Astra and VW Golf in it's class. All the other cars in it's class are equal or worse even many launched after the Civic.
The Civic also has the highest Pedestrian Safety score (of 3 stars), the only other car to have this is the brand new 2004 Golf. I think that's a reasonably impressive score for a focus size car.

Honda also invented the V-Tec engine with variable valve timeing, in my opinion the greatest petrol engine improvement since the SAAB APC Turbo system (if only SAAB could get out the SVC engine and take the crown back).

Honda were also the only mass market car manufacturer to persist with the use of double wishbone suspension when everyone else went over to struts.

Lancia were one of the greatest car makers ever. Now they are a single market oddity that could soon go the way of Oldsmobile.

Ken
20th October 2004, 07:16 AM
take a look at these three, bit more than pillars shared!

Ken
20th October 2004, 07:22 AM
Best shot I could find of a thema's controls,recognise that acc unit?

Paco
20th October 2004, 08:21 AM
The wheelbase of the 605 is 2800mm x 1800mm wide
The 9K is 2667 x 1765 wide

Maybe that why Peugeot pulled out- they might have wanted a bigger car. BTW, I think that the 9K feels more spacious than a 605

Dan

Alfa 164 dimensions:
wheelbase : 2660mm
track (front / rear) : 1515mm / 1488mm

(is your width figure for track or body width?)

Anyhoo it just surprised me that the 164 was smaller than a 9000, both felt very similar inside. I've never been inside a 605.....

Still miss my V6 164, a great car 8)

danrotman
20th October 2004, 09:56 AM
Laziness, I know, but the widths quoted are for body width- I couldn't find the track for the 605.

The pics of the three cars in profile are VERY interesting. I had never seen them like that. They sure look alike, don't they? As someone else pointed out, once Saab re-did the 9K it was a much better car, especially in rigidity.

Licence, so far as Honda is concerned-
1 Double wishbones have not improved the traction of their front ends. I used to test cars for a living, and I cannot remember a car that was harder to get off the line without excessive wheelspin than the (just past model) Honda Accord.

Saab had double wishbones too, then again so did Ford, so from an engineering standpoint that of itself is no recommendation. Getting any suspension system to work is what counts. Lancia used sliding pillar suspension into the late 50's/early 60's. That works real well, but need rebuilding too often.

2. Honda DID NOT invent variable valve timing. Nissan had a VVT production engine a couple of years b4 Honda, and US engineer Jim Rhoades patented a VVT system in the 60's.

Look at Honda's firsts-
Honda DID invent stratified charge engines.... a dead-end. Also tried aircooled F1 engine... didn't work. Four carbs on a road car..... didn't go anywhere. Hairpin valve springs... used to break, Chain drive for a 4 cam V4 bike.... chains used to stretch leading to catastrophic engine failure. Oh yeah Honda engineering is right up there.... with Lada.

Can you name a single Honda first which other makers have adopted?

Did I mention that Lancia designed and produced the first V8?
Saab - diagonal brake circuits, heated/cooled seats, active head restraints, headlight washer/wiper... etc

3. EuroNCAP gives Civic 3 stars

4. Love Honda so much? a) Why are you on the Saab forum?, and b) I hereby sentence you to driving a 90's Honda Legend with abt 100,000 kms on the clock- you'll soon agree with me about body rigidity.

5. Honda did not enter WRC, but they did produce cars that could have competed. Saab could not enter/win NASCAR coz they don't make US 3500lb sh**heaps as required by NASCAR.

6. Of the current Hondas, the s2000 is a peach, so long as you only drive on circuits.... on the road, keeping the revs right in the middle of the torque curve is a positive pain. To overtake, you need two, and sometimes three downshifts to match the times of a Saab Turbo. In the real world, it doesn't quite work.

The first (single)VVT Civic was likewise awful in the real world conditions of Australian traffic.

7. Actually I have some admiration for Honda, having owned about a dozen of their motorcycles (still have a CBR1000F) . In the pantheon of automotive (as opposed to mudderboike) gods, however, they are among the second string deities.

Guigaro did work for Bertone and he does claim the Muira and Countach as his own work. There is on-going dispute about this. I wasn't there so I can't comment. GG has produced some duds, as well as some beauties.

Dan

Licence
20th October 2004, 12:04 PM
3. EuroNCAP gives Civic 3 stars

Follow the link and tell me thats's not four stars.
http://www.euroncap.com/content/safety_ratings/ratings.php?id1=2

4. Love Honda so much? a) Why are you on the Saab forum?

Can I not like any other car than SAAB? I've owned SAABs since 1989 and love the C900 as the best car I've ever had but that does not mean I can't like other cars.

Licence
20th October 2004, 12:27 PM
2. Honda DID NOT invent variable valve timing. Nissan had a VVT production engine a couple of years b4 Honda, and US engineer Jim Rhoades patented a VVT system in the 60's.

Do you have any way to back this up? Every website I've looked at has said the first production car with variable valve timing was the 1991 Honda NSX. See this link as an example http://www.mr2sc.com/websites/articles/vvt.htm. I also found a site about the Toyota Celica that said that Honda have the Patent on the process.

Oh yeah Honda engineering is right up there.... with Lada.

Honda is not remotely like Lada http://www.hondacorporate.com/history/timeline.html.

As an aside, if any Lancia people are interested, for parts, there is a Thema Turbo in a breakers near me (can't remember which one exactly as I went to three on that day but I can find out) in the south east Essex area. It looked in reasonable nick for a scrapper.

benji9k
20th October 2004, 01:07 PM
2. Honda DID NOT invent variable valve timing. Nissan had a VVT production engine a couple of years b4 Honda, and US engineer Jim Rhoades patented a VVT system in the 60's.

Do you have any way to back this up? Every website I've looked at has said the first production car with variable valve timing was the 1991 Honda NSX. See this link as an example http://www.mr2sc.com/websites/articles/vvt.htm. I also found a site about the Toyota Celica that said that Honda have the Patent on the process.


Key word is production. Doesn't mean they came up with the idea. And a patent doesn't mean anything. You can take something someone devoted all their life to, change a couple things and repatent it. On a sidenote, it's not a selling point either, you can patent any old crap, so long as it's something different.

BTW, no offense intended, but I don't get the coinciding relationship in liking Hondas and Saabs as well. Do you need some boringness to balance out the uniqueness of the Saab? Some blah to calm down the zip of a turbo?

Licence
20th October 2004, 01:38 PM
BTW, no offense intended, but I don't get the coinciding relationship in liking Hondas and Saabs as well. Do you need some boringness to balance out the uniqueness of the Saab? Some blah to calm down the zip of a turbo?

No offence taken. Have you ever driven a V-Tec Honda (not a V-Tec E economy and emissions version)? Just like my T16S the V-Tec Prelude my mate had would pull away gently then reach a point on the rev counter where all hell would break loose and the car would go screaming off. The closest thing to a turbo without having a turbo. The mechanical 4 wheel steering was pretty good too, it handled like it was on rails. The ride was a bit stiff though although strangely quiet (most hard sprung cars I've driven, you also heard the bumps in the road). The black glass dashboard (with no dials until you turned on the ignition) was pretty unusual too. Very poor space utilisation though, even for a coupe.

BL‹E 9-3se
20th October 2004, 02:43 PM
I've been a fan of the Lancia Stratos for a while. Don't know if there are any (even knock-offs) here in the US. From the way they looked, I imagine that they could really haul *****.

I have seen a Renault Alpine, even drove one. That's probably as close as I'd ever get to a Stratos. Which, really, isn't that close. :lol:

BTW, what is the correct pronunciation of the name Lancia? Is it Lahn-ceeya or Lahnsha? I've heard it both ways. Those who say it one way insist that people who say it the other way are wrong.

Stefano
20th October 2004, 04:36 PM
take a look at these three, bit more than pillars shared!


Actually the doors are shared, and I'm surprised it wasn't noticed before. Mirrors are, too.

I think the 9000CD only existed just because the Thema was already there....

And the Thema shared the same ACC, too.

Marquis de Saab
20th October 2004, 05:35 PM
There was a diesel variant as well as the wonderful 192bhp 3.0l V6. Interestingly, there was also a four wheel drive version from 1990. [/quote]
You seem to know a lot about Italian cars, but are you sure about 192bhp in turbo diesel and V6? They had non-turbo gasoline in V6 and with almost 200bhp and I4 2.0l turbo gasoline, same HP. Diesels were 2,5l (Alfa's) and later in Alfa 164 Super there was VM Systems (they used to make engines for Land Rover) diesel 3.0l I4 and had 125bhp, on fascinating 3900 rpm. It had separate head over every of 4 cylinders (2000$ for a spare :evil: :evil: ). I use to cruise 125mph in that car with no sense of moving.
I like Italians as they are very easy to drive (feather like) and I do like their design... and sound (on gasoline models), but something is always wrong and you need 0-24 hrs mechanic for them and that cheap plastic they can't stop putting in finishing makes a lot of rattle. Not to mention how expensive is Alfa for maintainance.
I had both Alfa and Fiat and no matter how nice they were to drive, I was more than happy to switch to Saab as a much reliable car... and my stereo wasn't simply loud enough to drive Fiat over 85mph.

danrotman
20th October 2004, 08:04 PM
It's Lanshya... in Italian ci make for a soft C

My 164 info came from http://www.carsfromitaly.com/alfaromeo/index.html

Love to talk more about all thius but have 650Km to do by end of day... thank God for my 9Kaero!

Dan

Stefano
21st October 2004, 06:05 AM
It's Lanshya... in Italian ci make for a soft C


Dan

Actually I think it would sound more like "Lancha", like in "chapter".

My favourite engine in the 164 was the 2.0 V6 turbo, 205hp. Not many 2.0V6 around, the only other one around AFAIK was the Mazda which was a copy from the Alfa.

And before somebody asks or come up with this, no the Renault 25 wasn't part of the deal so wasn't designed with the others, even if the shape is so close

http://www.hagesoft.nl/useimg/2klein.JPG

Not the same car....

Oliver_u
21st October 2004, 06:13 AM
True IIRC the Renault 25 was on the market about two years before the 9000 and Fiat group derivatives. I remember seeing a road test between the CitroŽn CX turbo, the 900 8V turbo intercooler, and the Renault 25 turbo. I think the article was crica 1985.

Stefano
21st October 2004, 06:18 AM
Yes this is a mistake sometimes people do, since they all are Euro cars (and only the Saab was sold in the US) from the 80's and they all look so similar. Just wanted to prevent this.... :cheesy: next time somebody will search the BB to look for info about the birth of the 9k he won't be mislead. :cheesy:

danrotman
21st October 2004, 06:55 AM
Just returned from my 650Km jaunt. Jeez the 9k is a good long distance beast. :D

I am thinking of doing some phototracing and overlays of all those cars

See you on the morrow.

Dan

Blacky Turbo S
21st October 2004, 07:23 AM
There was also a 24 valve version of en Alfa 164 3.0V6. Actualy 2 of them. A 210 bhp FWD version of the 164 super and a (when I remember well) 230 bhp in the AWD 164 super Q4.

The 2.0 V6 was made specially for some market, including Italian, to arround higher road tax for big cars with big engines.
I thought Mazda had a 1.8 V6. :-?

Check http://www.carsfromitaly.com for the interior of the Thema 8.32, that just gorgious. :)

Btw the Thema v6 had the PRV (Peugeot, Renault, Volvo) Douvrin 2.8 V6, the latest version of the Them (like the Croma) had the Alfa 3.0 V6 (with same power as the Ferrari V8).

Always loved the Thema, I find it such a beatiful car...... but well, the Italian electrics.... :roll:
Also the Thema Turbo's (especially the 16v) were prety fine cars.

Blacky

Oliver_u
21st October 2004, 01:29 PM
look at what I found!

http://cgi.ebay.it/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=18186&item=2495047069&rd=1

Nice colour too! Who can say that isn't a beautiful car. And with 210 hp must be a blast!

Tic
21st October 2004, 01:34 PM
look at what I found!

http://cgi.ebay.it/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=18186&item=2495047069&rd=1

Nice colour too! Who can say that isn't a beautiful car. And with 210 hp must be a blast!

why buy a Lancia DELTA INTEGRALE for 12.000euro when you can have a Saab-Lancia 600GL for 250 euro :lol:

http://www2.blocket.se/view/3155741.htm?caller=vbl_s&l=0&c=1&city=0

and say after me "SAAB šger!" [SAAB aeger']
Which means; SAAB rules. :D

Stefano
21st October 2004, 01:35 PM
90k km are a lot on that car if the tranny hasn't been rebuilt... those trannies and diffs last less than on C900. And for 12k euros I would expect something really good, I think you can find something cheaper.

Like these

http://pages.annunci.tiscali.it/scheda/annuncio/nr1656364/

http://pages.annunci.tiscali.it/scheda/annuncio/jj1607004/

http://pages.annunci.tiscali.it/scheda/annuncio/ht1085605/

http://pages.annunci.tiscali.it/scheda/annuncio/zn1616095/

Oliver_u
21st October 2004, 01:53 PM
True Stefano, except two arent the Evoluzione models, which have the 16V engines 8) But the other two evoluziones do seem better value :wink:

I guess a lot depends on how they have been driven and serviced I guess. Funny to see them so readily available.

boxman
22nd October 2004, 03:59 AM
I don't even know where "lancia" comes from :oops:

italy, its part of the fiat group :)

Cuba
22nd October 2004, 06:43 AM
Only you guys got the MkIII "CRX," over here it's called the Del Sol, and they are nothing like the true CRXs...heavy, floppy (chassis), and ugly. I've seen some nice first-gens, but they're pretty rare in nice condition. CRXs do tend to rust.

BEN

Somebody throw the chimp a crx and perhaps he will stop banging on about them.
BTW. I wouldn't use a Del Sol for an anchor.

P.S How the hell are you anyways MonkeyMan? Run your tit$ off over the summer? How's east B*m F**k treating ya?

danrotman
26th October 2004, 12:49 AM
It's worth googling Vincenzo Lancia just to see what he did. There were some amazing Italian engineers in the first part of the 20thC. See also Vittorio Jano, Giocchino (sp?) Colombo, Ettore Bugatti (French, but Italian heritage), Dante Giacosa, Pinin Farina, the brothers Zagato, Nuccio Bertone, Aurelio Lampredi, etc.

BTW Enzo Ferrari was just a clever businessman, with little or no engineering talent that I can discern, and a bully, too. Read Brock Yates biography of him.

As for Delta Integrales, I WANT ONE (or two :P ) I'll have a Evoluzione model, oh and a Stratos and an 037 too. My address is......

Dan

danrotman
26th October 2004, 02:19 AM
As promised I have created line drawings of the profiles of type 4 cars, and the Renault 25 as someone was kind enough to post a pic of those.

You'll see that they are pretty much identical, except for the bumpers and tail lights.

SAABotaged900S
28th October 2004, 07:40 AM
I noticed peoples interests in the Lancia HF Integrale, I dont think this is the place for it, but I know someone who has two Lancia HF Integrales for sale in the Metro New York Area. Onne is the 16 vale and the other is the 8 valve


Tim
Yonkers, New York
87 900 S 16v 133,500

ragtopcav
28th October 2004, 10:56 AM
As per usual, Saab persisted longest with the car, making 503,000 from 1984-1998. The basic architecture continues with the 95.


The 9-5 is a shared platform with the Vauxhall/Opel/Holden Vectra it has little in common with the 9000 except for some minor 'carried over' components like the trannys and engines :lol: .