: My project
3rd April 2002, 03:32 PM
OK, here's a full (albeit constantly changing) list of the improvements that I have done or will do to my car. Time will tell what will be, but here's what I have thought about so far:
This time I start with suspension, so you don't have a change to tell me I should modify that too! :smile:
-Kilen progressive sports springs with 25 mm drop
-Bilstein sport gas absorbers
-Front and rear anti-roll bar
-Reinforced front A-arms
-Strut brace in the front
-Ployurethane bushings all round
-Ventilated, grooved and cross drilled discs
-Performance brake pads (still researching)
-Tar.Ox S/S brake lines
-Dot 5.1 brake fluid
-Jörgen Eriksson reinforced 4-speed manual
-Saab 9000 2.3 Turbo clutch with Sachs Sporting clutch assembly
-16" or 17" alloys with V-rated rubber
-No styling mods
-Body strenghtening by welded-on steel tubes
-Battery relocated to boot
-Headlight wiper/washer system ditched
-Engine compartment and front bumper modifications necessitated by custom parts
-4-point harness for driver and front passenger
-Racing steering wheel
-In-car boost control
-Bored-out H-engine block
-Reinforced and balanced con-rods
-New pistons (Forged pistons a possibility)
-Race-prepped 8V head
-Enlargened inlet manifold
-Tubular exhaust manifold with equal-lenght pipes
-Custom turbocharger by Garrett/Holset/ etc.
-Abbott Racing twin-piston dump valve
-Trent Saab upgraded wastegate actuator
-Custom front-mount intercooler
-Custom IC piping with 60mm alloy pipes
-Aquamist water injection
-Extra fuel injection system
-Manually adjustable APC box
-MSD boost timing master
-High performance ignition parts (leads, coil, plugs)
-JT 3" exhaust with turbo downpipe and one muffler
-Custom cold air induction system with JR cone
-Silicone vacuum hoses
-Custom heat shields for induction and ignition components
OK, that's my current plan. My project is going to take at least two years to reach that level, though. I won't satisfy without results either - no matter how long it takes, I'm determined to build a nice 8-valver. The list isn't strict - I might leave lots off stuff out eventually, but the basic target is the same - a reliable and damn fast 900 T8.
I think I will be satisfied with 250 hp, or any reliable power level really, it all comes down to what kind of results I get in the process and how the car drives.
Anyway, I won't be driving the car with full boost all the time (let alone Finnish winter!!) And with every detail, I want to do the mods in such a way, that reliability and durability aren't too badly affected.
Now then, feel free to contribute! You're also free to flame me as much as you like, but I'm not as mad as you might think by the project's magnitude... Nor are the mod costs sky-high - I most certainly am not buying all the stuff at Abbott's! :grin:
3rd April 2002, 03:39 PM
Have you managed to find a source that can supply poly bushes for all the suspension parts? In the UK different manufacturers seem to only supply a small number of the bushes, but not a complete set.
3rd April 2002, 03:43 PM
Well it seems like it will cost a lot. What do you estimate the total amount of money you will spend is?
3rd April 2002, 10:02 PM
Damm, Now were talking.
I am not sure where you live, but i will fly myself there to see it if you finish it....
3rd April 2002, 10:33 PM
hmm.. i'll be doin the same stuff.. but mine would be the T16 engine. but im wondering.. why 4 speed?
3rd April 2002, 11:36 PM
The 4 speed is generally accepted to be a stronger unit...
4th April 2002, 12:07 AM
Sulla siinä aika projekti mutta erittäin mielenkiintoinen, pakko nähdä valmiina. Itse ajattelin et T4 taitaa olla liian iso 2.0 litran koneeseen taidan laittaa Holset H1D/motorsportin viritysversio Hybridi pypridin...!!:)
I think you are thinking uuh... what language that guy is writing, i can tell you it's finnish i just say that i must forget Garret T4 and i decide to put holset H1D/tuned hybrid turbo.
4th April 2002, 06:37 AM
The poly bushes are indeed a question; you can get the most important ones at Swedish Dynamics, but I thought with some measurements, universal bushes could be used in some places.
Yes, the H1D is an option - I won't get a T04 anyway, those are rather big.... :smile:
About costs, I think I'll keep it ALL well under 10 000 euros, even if that means I can't do all the stuff I'd like to. And included is all the upkeep-related costs such as paintwork and rust-prevention. Anyway, I do as much of the work as I can myself and do careful research on prices elsewhere. I'm not loaded, so this kind of a project takes time, but it's gonna be a lot of fun anyway!
And for the time being, the car's a daily driver, so I'll collect the "goodies" for assembly sessions when I change more parts at a time. This is also a cost-effective measure - this way I'm not in any hurry and can always wait for the best price before ordering any parts.
When I find the time, I'll also do a project web site complete with pictures and updated progess of my project.
And these projects are never completed, as you know... I'll just have to keep sane and save some good taste, so it won't turn out a lemon!
And while this thing will cost me a lot of money, I think it's money well spent. I can end up with a nice standard-looking c900 with Porsche-humiliating performance. With much less money than a new compact car.
Fun, that. :smile:
4th April 2002, 08:28 AM
Right on, I love to see a plan put into motion.
I agree that it would make pretty good sense to modify a car that has already been shown to be a real long-lasting performer, rather than buying an altogether new car.
Best of luck, as I'm sure I'll use some of your ideas one of these days.
4th April 2002, 10:16 AM
Why the 8v route? - you can extract more power with more reliability for less money with a 16v motor in the long run.
If you are only after 250bhp and have 10000 Euro's to blow - buy a T16 and add a few mods and you are there with plenty of Euro's to spare!
4th April 2002, 01:18 PM
I have considered the T16 conversion. I still do, but here's why so far I have been in favor of the T8 unit:
1.Finnish tax policy. I already have many non-original parts installed to my car (it's registrated as a 900i 8V) And replacement of major parts eventually lead to exceeding the specified change percentage - which leads to me paying car tax about 3 times more than I do right now.
2.Mechanical valve gear. With T16 head, I would have to invest in mechanical lifter conversion. T8 is good for 7500 rpm with stiffer springs in the followers.
3.T8 is a simpler design. You can modify the K-Jetronic fuel injection yourself without an electrician's degree. Less moving parts, so less to modify (i.e. camshafts, valves, all that)
4.No real need to change the engine to different specification. I have talked to racing specialists, and all confirm that the T8 engine is a good place to start working on. No need for an expensive T16 head (good ones cost money around here). A Finnish rally cross car, 900 T8 with no intercooler had 270 hp with no engine problems what so ever. A Finnish Saab tuner told me the difference between extreme applications enabling horsepower between T8 and T16 is actually 300 hp against 350 hp.
5. Competition - some street car racing regulations set multi-valve engines to a different category. Some series even forbids multi-valve heads.
6. I like the 8V! It's more of the old school brute I like. And that sound... :grin:
5th April 2002, 05:36 AM
With your brakes, why use the stocky calipers...
I have 9000t calipers and drilled disks on my thing using carbon brake pads...
they work awesome but the pad dust is worse than before.
the only SOB with the job was having to get new brake lines, but your doing that anyway, buy em from a wreckers (the callipers) and itll be cheap.
Sorry i can't tell you exactly whats involved because the previous owner had it done....
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Fan-TC on Apr 5, 2002 11:41am ]</font>
Eric van Spelde
5th April 2002, 01:36 PM
Yes, but as Janne's car is an '87 he'd need to swap the front hubs, rear axle and brakes as well as the handbrake system from a later car, just like I had done on Saabine (I run the late 9000 front calipers, too). This was an involved and rather costly (22.5 hrs of Saab tech label including some small 'while you are in there stuff)' job. Now that it's finished and paid for, however, I haven't regretted my decision for a single moment. With Brembo front discs and Ferodo DS3000 pads from Trent Saab, I now have _real_ brakes, and a gorgeous set of 16"Aero's to boot... :smile:
5th April 2002, 05:10 PM
Sorry, but i have to agree, why bother with an 8V when you get a 16V there much quicker and less expensive?
7th April 2002, 05:39 AM
The concept of retaining the 8v head is an interesting one. The cost of a swap may not be warranted. No matter what head you use it will require work. And the concept i am working on is that you will require twice as much work in a 16v head (cause theres twice as many components). So you save by not buying a new head, and not needing as many new components.
With a 16v, drivability might be improved a bit, however this does not seem to be a concern with this project.
If you look to Australia and one of the most competitive drag racing catagories we have, VL Commodore Turbo's. There are about 8 examples of these in the 9's and all except one retain the 12v head rather than the simple swap to a 24v head. When you are stuffin great wads of boost into an engine, the number of valves is not the greatest concern.
Also look at the pre 98 porsche turbo's, except racing ones, the regular 911 turbo (993, 964) used a 12v aircooled engine. These made 330kw.
So i know we could argue this forever, but i think from an economical point of view Janne is taking the right option.
From a performance point of view i really dont think it will make sh*t all difference at this turbocharged power level.
7th April 2002, 05:46 AM
One recomendation i will now make having read this post carefully again.
Forget K-Jectronic computers. For your highly strung application they will be a liability despite any mods you might perform.
As far as i am aware they are not easily chipable and programmable. To really realise the potential of your car a custom programmable engine computer can really be your only option.
Not sure how much of these you see fromyour neck of the woods but here in australia we have plentiful selection.
(If there is any way to chip and program any of the bosch management systems i would be very interested in hearing of (buying) this technology into Australia, something i have looked far and wide for)
Eric van Spelde
7th April 2002, 06:06 AM
Ummm, K-Jet computer? Not unless you are talking about the catalyst version, which has an in-line modulating valve controlled by a lambda computer which is controlled by an O2 sensor. Otherwise (and in Janne's case, his car being non-cat equipped) the K-Jet is as mechanical as they come.
Reprogramming computers is not a very flexible, and costly solution. You will only find LH 'chips' to support a basically stock set up. With a project like Janne's it's either a complete aftermarket fuel management system (which I would not recommend for the road, it's unlikely the fuel maps for normal operation you set will be as good for driveability as what the manufacturer has worked out, unless you own your personal dyno test center and know how to work with it) or 1-4 additional injectors, controlled by a separate electronic drive unit (like ERL's MF2, for instance). In the latter case, you only have to fill in the 'voids' the stock fuel system leaves in the fuel maps - i.e. where engine mods and boost pressure take fueling needs beyond what the stock system can give, typically high rpm/high boost operation.
I still maintain one or more additional injectors with a proprietary controller is the most effective way for both 8v/K-jet and 16v/LH cars.
9th April 2002, 04:22 AM
The extra injectors will definitely cost you power.
The extra expense for a programmable computer will return much better results.
How the he11 do you ever expect the standard computer to get an nice economic idle with lumpy as camshafts, big head ports and such.
Drivability and fuel economy will be far better with a programmable engine computer.
How you gunna get past this safely..
Please i am not sure of the state of the market where you are from but us Aussies make the best units in the world so if in need look at our market.
Definitely go for a well tuned custom....
9th April 2002, 04:07 PM
Well, in Finland we do have a good supply of all motor sport related stuff, car racing's very popular here as you may know.
I would very much like a new engine management system, but this is EXPENSIVE - not only do the parts cost a lot, but there's a multitude of sensors and such to install, while the primary testing and setting-up takes time and should be done with a dyno...
I know dealers for Haltech, Hestec, DTA and Lumenition at least, but which would be the most cost-effective solution? I'm also not an electrician, so the installing work would have to be done by a specialist.
One question though: Could it be possible to use Saab's own APC in conjunction with programmable injection and ignition?
IMO the APC is a good thing, all the adjustability and knock protection in one package. What do you think?
Also, it's not absolutely necessery to use a custom management system - people in Sweden have managed 300+ hp with T8 and original injection with a pre-programmed extra injector system. I would like a custom system though. Tell me what I should expect the whole package to cost?
9th April 2002, 06:39 PM
The apc is a very good thing, however any reasonable management computer shouldbe able to equal or better functions.
In australia a custom enginemanagement installed and tuned would only be about $2000. Cheap i reccon when you consider the the tunability this will offer you.
When deciding you should look at the functions of each computer before deciding which offers better value. Just consider your options.
If you have it set up on a MAP sensor you can have an externally venting BOV if that is your thing...
1st May 2002, 08:41 PM
Lue mun kommentit T04:sta, löytyy jostain päin..
Projekti näyttää jees, mut sä todellaki tarviit hestecin tai vast,ja suorasytkän, jos meinaat yli 1.2 ahtoja koneeseen ajaa, tiedetään kokemuksesta, ku pystyt vaikuttamaan sytkään 2 asteen tarkkuudella ja suihkutukseen tod. paljon.. Vie auto Hariselle, se tietää miten 900 saa tehoa ulos, on nääs jarruttanut 300 helppoa hepoa 900:sta. Sorry about the language.. I will send the translation later. Cheers
2nd May 2002, 08:25 AM
Thanks, Reincheck! I have thought about this, and eventually I am going to get a complete new engine management system. It will take time, however, have to find the money first. Hestec would be nice for availability around here, but is it easy to program?
And do you have an E-mail address? It would be fun to discuss Saab tuning some more!
3rd May 2002, 08:08 AM
Yes, of course. My email should be now in my profile.
It´s going to be a long weekend, I have to replace a cranksaft in my engine, hopefully, only the bearings are damaged, dunno yet.
You can remember old finnish sticker, where read: Saabism is like a disease, you can never cure..
3rd May 2002, 08:29 AM
My english, I meant, Cannot never cured.. but anyway, Hestec electronic injection is not so difficult to program, of course you need equipment, which measures the mixture from exhaust gas and if you have a possibility to take the car in the place where is dynamo meter, you can much better see the results what programming brings (BHP's), but that´s quite dear in Finland, You can easily spend 150-200£ in 4-5 hours.
I believe that the price of the hestec (including programmable direct ignition)
Throttle valve´s etc. is around 1000-1200£
Still, I believe, that it is worth of buying, I makes tuning up much easier, and you can be sure that it directly effects on the performance, (You can have different mods. for driving in the city, performance or economic,) just change the program from laptop,whenever you like.
Easy as .. well,
I am not aloud to say it loud.