Adding new turbo to my b202 engine!? [Archive] - SaabCentral Forums

: Adding new turbo to my b202 engine!?


tertsi
2nd April 2002, 01:17 AM
Have anybody ever tried to fit garret T4 turbo to b202? I think that it maybe too big to 2.0l engine but i don't know!!!! HELP!!! YAIKSSSS.....:smile:

Smackrazor
2nd April 2002, 01:43 AM
Turbonetics do a T3/4 hybrid which I think would work the best. I think it's the T3 housing with the T4 blades.

Janne Selinummi
2nd April 2002, 07:03 AM
I'd also like to know if that's doable!
The T3/4 is a popular upgrade, but I'm going high-end with my B201, and T3/4 only works well up to 1.5 bar or so. Not enough then...
T4 - has anyone done this?

DanF.
2nd April 2002, 12:44 PM
Janne,
I think that you should make sure that your other mods will be able to support the amount of boost that a T4 is capable of generating. It sounds like you are indeed dedicated to transforming your car into a giant-killer. You mentioned before that something to the effect of lowering the engine compression to deall with the increased boost, but won't that effect engine performance across the board when it is not boosting? I am just curious about it all, someday i'd like to have a nicely done up Saab. Regards.

Janne Selinummi
2nd April 2002, 02:39 PM
Yes, low-compression pistons do take edge off the low-down performance, and off boost, my car will eventually be noticeably slower.

However, I probably also bore out the cylinders to get 2.1 litres or more of displacement. And all the breathing-improving mods should fight the loss of non-boost performance.

I will look very carefully into the possibilities to make the engine cope with high boost. I am determined, however, that I'm not converting to T16 - I want to have the fastest T8 in Finland eventually! :grin:
And it's much cheaper to mod the T8 engine - I won't have to buy mechanical valve lifters, since they're already there in the T8, and also only one camshaft to do. And I do like the sound of the 8-valver, and the pike-character of the boost buildup...

It's a long project, and I plan on buying another B201 unit and start working on it, while I can still drive my car with the current engine.

I'll post a topic of the modifications as well, so you guys can contribute! :smile:

Eric van Spelde
2nd April 2002, 03:25 PM
My take on the T04 subject:

The thing is frickin' HUGE for a 2.0l engine. Even a T3/T4 combo is considered a step too far by most. Whoever told you the T04 could not handle more than 15 psi efficiently was clearly not talking about Saab 4-cyl. engines...
The thing to remember is that turbochargers support a given amount of airflow at a specific efficiency level, which translates to a feasible max hp output. With a 2.0l engine, that hp level - after which compressor efficiency drops off quickly so the added heat is setting off any gains from the extra amount of oxygen you are shoving into the engine - might be reached at 25 psi, while the same turbo might reach its airflow/hp limit on, say, a 4 litre V8, at 15 psi or less.
The other thing is IMO for optimum performance you have to look at the complete package. And in the Saab's case that package includes FWD. I'm having a hard time, really, to imagine what a 650 hp Mazda 626 drives like, but I reckon it won't be much fun for anything but drag racing, and even then it will still be a waste of power transferring all of it through the front wheels.
Now I'm not against trying to extract maximum performance out of a FWD car. It's been done by major manufacturers with great success. Arguably, the turbo-4, FWD Seat Leon Cupra R is a better and more involving drive than the V6 AWD Cupra 4, the Saab 9000 Aero always was a gem, chassis-wise, and the Alfa 156 GTA shows it can be done to great effect, to name but a few. But there are limitations. Limitations are not a bad thing in se. They bring structure and reality to a project, in that they make you narrow down your choices (I mean, what kind of car would you build if there were NO limitations? Harder than you thought, right?) and there will be a fair chance of actually finishing the project into something enjoyable witihn time and financial restraints. You know the type of model railroad builder that wants the sea and the mountains, the city and the village, the central station and the harbour, and and and on his layout? Typically his projects don't go anywhere, whilst his colleage who narrows his choice down to one clearly defined and overseeable subject comes up with one award-winning show stopper after another.
The key here is to acknowledge the limits, then try to gently stretch and work around them instead of barging right past them. I see lots of exotic stuff happening to Saab engines that will never work out to their full effect within the Saab as a complete system - a far more modestly tuned Saab turbo engine will aready be enough to break transmission and traction at will, so why bother getting further than that? At that point, you might spend your money and headaches more wisely by stiffening the shell, making the car lighter, sort out all the small details that make or break handling, install a shorter and more precise shifter action mechainsm, tune the engine for more tractability and better throttle response instead of raw power,...

Rant off :smile:

Happy Saabing,
Eric

Janne Selinummi
2nd April 2002, 04:47 PM
Wise words from mr. van Spelde once again!

In my project at least, a good overall package is indeed my main objective.
And as for now, I have made my mind about the order of the modifications to my car...
I'll tweak the existing engine only lightly so that I can get away with the stock drive train. While I'm building the hi-po engine, I look at all the other things in my car, upgrade the suspension and brakes enough for the future etc.

I do want to have a tractable engine, but if I want to have 250 hp+, with the B201 engine I do need pretty high boost. Some people run their T16s with 1.7 bar and only get 240 hp, but obviously this is a result of many power-reducing problems such as too small turbo etc. I was also thinking other options of turbo manufacturers, I hope my local turbo specialists will help me here... I would like the turbo to start spooling up before 3500 rpm.

BTW, Eric, is there a way I can get some info
on the racing T8 at the TTE web site? I'd like to know how they managed it and how the car held together...

Smackrazor
2nd April 2002, 08:23 PM
Janne have you thought about putting together a project website ro something like that because I'd be interested in seeing how all these mods turn out :smile:

Fan-TC
3rd April 2002, 03:00 AM
My personal view of the project you talk about is that it will never satisfy you.
While its a nice dream, one which i have considered many times, i doubt it could practicaly ever be any more than a dream.

Firstly unless you drive like my mum you will never keep a gearbox in the thing. your only hope is have a customcut helical dog engagement box made with some major diff work (ie separate it from the rest of the box).

A turbo to produce a realistic 300hp aint that bad, but without revs it will need mega boost. Plus a custom exhaust manifold is the only was to truely fulfil the turbo's potential.
An IC that flows well to at least 400hp will also be necessary.

Then your internals are a problem, forget about these being adequate, new rods and lowcompression and low weight pistons will be needed for you to stay in the game. Your will need at least 6500rpm minimum.

Start talking about ported heads and camshafts you will reduce drivability further.

Custom (programmable) engine management will also be needed to really release all your new engines potential, bloody exensive.

For help in acheiving you end NOS will help greatly, but in most countries is illegal on the street (and rightfully so in my opinion).


At this stage you will dread driving the car anyway so you may as well rip out your interior and install a race seat for yourself.

Now you have the power but your suspension will never handle it, so a full rework (more than upgraded abbot springs or whatever) will be needed.

Your brakes will never stop you either so look at an upgrade here as well.



I personally have no idea what parts your car has currently so some of the above may already be done. However my ideas above are what you would need to look at, to do it properly (and maybe, with LUCK, stay alive)


(** Remember, the seconds are cheap, its the tenths that cost the money)

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Fan-TC on Apr 3, 2002 8:06am ]</font>

Janne Selinummi
3rd April 2002, 03:04 AM
Smackrazor, that's indeed crossed my mind more than once :smile:

In fact, I plan on doing my own website as soon as possible, and currently, while I'm doing my CFMIC installation, I'm taking pictures all the time. Too bad my project is not going to be ready in a week... I reckon I could get the new engine prepared in 18 months or so, and until that I'd be driving along with my mildly tweaked current engine.

Smackrazor
3rd April 2002, 03:08 AM
Psssht... it's not that bad if you drive a little more carefully. I'd just go for 250 hp instead... it's enough to smoke most cars on the road and you won't have to get new pistons and rods.

Janne Selinummi
3rd April 2002, 03:57 PM
OK, I'll now post a new topic where I list all the modifications I intend to do...

There you guys can post your opinions and suggestions! Let's have fun, but please may it be informative as well!! :smile:

The new topic is labeled as "My project" - now that's what I call original!

Smackrazor
3rd April 2002, 04:39 PM
At least it's not the sappy "project x" :wink:

Alex
3rd April 2002, 05:37 PM
I would have thought that the T4 was too large. This was designed for truck engines and also fitted to the Bentley turbo which has a 6.75 litre engine! Was also fitted to the Sierra Cosworth RS500. This could give around 580bhp in the final racing versions but was always critised in the road cars for producing nothing below 3500-4000rpm.

The T3/T4 hybrid was fitted to the Escort RS Cosworth, and is capable of around 350-400bhp, but also suffers from a high boost threshold.

Reincheck
1st May 2002, 09:28 PM
T04 for SAAB 900.

There actually is one friend of mine who had T04 in his 1987 8V turbo, but there was a problem in originally injection, and its lack of the adjusting it properly.
The guy replaced the injection system, with HESTEC (fully electronically adjustable injection, same as Haltek etc.) with Direct ignition. He was using 1.2 boost normally and sometimes increased it upper.
I believed that he got something like 280BHP in dynamometer.(1.2bar)
I have droven that car, and the performance was definetely incredible for whaletale, but the weakest link...
there is already 4th gearbox in the car...