The Scab-91NA to 86T conversion [Archive] - SaabCentral Forums

: The Scab-91NA to 86T conversion


aznsaab
10-04-09, 11:12 AM
first about the name. When I bought my 91 900 and brought it to my parents house, my mother asked me... "so this is the new car you bought? What's it called a Scab?" I corrected her and told her it was a Saab. She then told me "oh well it looks like a scab" :roll: It has since grown on her and she appreciates the car and the ways it is different just as I do. On to what you all really care about. To my knowledge there is no "cook book" thread that provides details on a NA to turbo conversion. The primary goal of this thread is to settle the topic once and for all. I intend on learning as much as I do passing onto others.

The cars: 1991 Saab 900 built in Nystad Finland and a 1986 Saab 900T built in the legendary Trollhattan.
http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff270/aznsaab/100_1044.jpg
http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff270/aznsaab/IMG_1317.jpg
http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff270/aznsaab/IMG_1320.jpg

Much More to follow later today but I have to get to class. Thermodynamics FTW!

Can someone please explain Entropy to me?

Just to be clear and put this on the table right now, the 1986 donor car is just that. A donor car. The body rot on this car is so bad that the frame bent when towing it out of the field I found it in and on the way to its new home.

Stage 1 Build plan:
Assess the condition of the engine trans and turbo.
Once cleared verify these components function correctly before removing from the car.
With the engine out, replace the gaskets, seals, timing chain, guides, vacuum lines, plugs, etc...
SD cold air
Al Flywheel
Insert into other car with a full LH 2.2 retrofit.
Run stock boost pressure until I get bored or the trans breaks.

Stage 2 Build plan: goal>200Whp
2.1 Head/intake conversion and cam swap
T3/T4 or full upgrade to a mitsu turbo
larger intercooler
3.0 bar fuel pressure regulator
rebuilt trans
Injectors?

Stage 3?
haven't thought that far. Possible custom exhaust work, eprom tuning.

Suspension and handling:
Bilstein HD already installed.
chopped springs from the 86.
urethane bushings.

Finally, take measures to preserve the car in its current condition whenever the opportunity presents itself. Owning both a 2.1 engine and trans and a 2.0T engine and trans puts me in a good spot. I always have a spare and can eventually combine-a-size to make the best turbo and NA engine combos by swapping heads and intakes.

aznsaab
14-04-09, 07:26 AM
Had a little bit of time to tinker around with the new find. This is one of those things where I'm afraid if I keep working on it, that I might catch some disease yet to be discovered by science. I've removed the APC unit for inspection, The AMM is intact, and I'm going through the rest of the intake side. I'm glad I decided to inspect everything before starting.

A mouse had been living in the air filter. it was so comfortable that it decided to die there too.
http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff270/aznsaab/IMG_1332.jpg
There is a considerable amount of oil in the pipe that leads from the AMM to the compressor. I'm not sure what to think about that yet. The metal pipe that has turbo intercooler stamped on it had a little oil in it as well although not nearly as much.
http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff270/aznsaab/IMG_1331.jpg
After further investigation it appears I have purchased a relic much like the ones sought after in movies like Indiana Jones... that's not the plastic electrical conduit. That's a snake shedding.
http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff270/aznsaab/IMG_1333.jpg

mattsaab
14-04-09, 11:03 AM
wow... quite a terrarium you have there! :D

SpecialTool
15-04-09, 07:22 AM
Don't sweat the oil in the pipes; a little is perfectly normal.

aznsaab
15-04-09, 10:03 PM
After digging a little more I've decided to skip trying to get the engine running and just yank it out. I noticed a lot of the wiring is gone, hoses, gaskets, vacuum lines... I'm already halfway into a rebuild and that is much easier to do with the engine out. Plus I found some more goodies today.

http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff270/aznsaab/IMG_1350.jpg
http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff270/aznsaab/IMG_1352.jpg

I'm thinking valve cover gasket but judging by the amount of oil that is everywhere and the look of the #1 spark plug... it's rebuild time. I was surprised to find that the plug wires were boogercords or whatever that brand is.:p After that was decided I started pulling more parts out. I got the intercooler out and the elbow that connects the exhaust manifold to the turbocharger. It has the o2 sensor in it. I want to get the turbo bits out first because that's what I'm the most interested in.

It's proving a little difficult. Whats the easiest way to remove the turbom and the supply/return lines? The book says to remove the manifold and turbo as a unit but that's looking to be a more difficult route. It also recommends removing the distributor but I'm Leary of that.

last ond for the night. Is there any way to test the APC control box for functionality with it out of the car? The book didn't really say much. It focused more on the functionality of the components rather then the controller.

Squaab99t
15-04-09, 11:11 PM
I'm thinking valve cover gasket but judging by the amount of oil that is everywhere and the look of the #1 spark plug... it's rebuild time. I was surprised to find that the plug wires were boogercords or whatever that brand is.:p After that was decided I started pulling more parts out. I got the intercooler out and the elbow that connects the exhaust manifold to the turbocharger. It has the o2 sensor in it. I want to get the turbo bits out first because that's what I'm the most interested in.

It's proving a little difficult. Whats the easiest way to remove the turbom and the supply/return lines? The book says to remove the manifold and turbo as a unit but that's looking to be a more difficult route. It also recommends removing the distributor but I'm Leary of that.

last ond for the night. Is there any way to test the APC control box for functionality with it out of the car? The book didn't really say much. It focused more on the functionality of the components rather then the controller.

Remove the oil feed line (top one). Leave the oil return attached to the turbo. When you remove the turbo the oil return is a O ring slip fit in to the block and you will be able to wiggle it out. I'd unbolt the 4 fasteners that join the turbo to the exhaust manifold flange. One is a PITA, lower inboard IIRC.
Removing the dist is a easy thing to do and makes pulling the turbo much easier. Before you pull it put two witness marks one on the head and the one on the dist. A cold chisel or center punch works well. Now this is assuming the timing was set correctly. It will help when you put everything back together. You will want to replace the O ring on the dist housing since it gets old, hard, and leaks.
Make sure you bag and label everything. It will make your rebuild go smoother.

I've never bench tested an APC. It fail safes to base boost which is what you will want after your rebuild. Unplug the solinoid for 1000 miles as you break in the engine.

aznsaab
21-04-09, 05:45 PM
turbine wheel
http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff270/aznsaab/IMG_1364.jpg
compressor wheel
http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff270/aznsaab/IMG_1365.jpg
so now I've got this thing out of the car. now what? I've tried looking around on the forums and on the internetz but keep finding mixed information. Is there an actual procedure to taking these things apart or is it as simple as removing all of the bolts? Can the T3 be rebuilt by the shade tree mechanic or does it require special gizmos to balance the assembly. I've read that it's doable if you mark the postitions of the wheels and I've also read on the swedish dynamics page that balencing a T3 after a rebuild is not necessary. once I get the thing apart is there anything that works well to clean all of the build up off? basically I really have no idea what I'm looking at here other then I know it's a turbocharger. There is no in and out play in the wheels and if I move either the compressor or turbine wheel there is no axial play HOWEVER if I grab both wheels at either end I can "wobble" the shaft quite a bit by pushing up on one end and down on the other... any thoughts?

bugeyedrex
23-04-09, 10:29 AM
No axial play is a good sign. The radial play that you're describing sounds like the bearing may be worn. If you rebuild the turbo you should replace it. I've never rebuilt a turbo myself so if someone more experienced could chime in I'm sure it would be helpful.

Here's a youtube link to a a t3/t4 rebuild that you may find helpful. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I2CwBwrdnvA It looks like the only tricky part will be removing the turbine housing. When doing this use alot of pb blaster and start with light taps. If that doesn't work, move on to hitting it harder. You have to be careful not to damage the turbine during this step so be careful.

Here's another link with great pictures where the rebuilder talks about removal of the turbine housing: http://www.stage-infinity.com/2007/09/28/mitsubishi-td04-13t-turbo-rebuild/ It's for a td04 but the idea is still the same.

Hope this helps,
Jaime

li Arc
28-04-09, 07:44 PM
Hey Azn,

Looks like an interesting project you have going on there, I'm sure you'll learn a lot about your car and how things work during this project! It'll definitely open your eyes and helps you appreciate just why Saab chooses to design their components so uniquely and how it all translates to the end result...a fantastic feeling unsurpassed by anything else when you're listening to the turbine smoothly building boost as it screams down the freeway, or when you're slipping in and out of the meandering curves driving down a cliffside highway by the ocean shores or through the rain forests leaving at first the purely blissful burble...then silence. Ahh...

Now down to the work involved! Being azn myself, I know how it's like squeezing every penny...and believe me, a project car requires a lot of squeezing! But there are things you simply can't do on your own unless you have access to the equipment, such as balancing the turbo.

If your turbo simply needs to be refurbished with some new seals, that's fine, as long as you put the rotating assembly back together exactly as it is. Mark the wheel, the nut, and the thrust collar against the shaft, and put it back together like that, you'll probably be okay. The housings are easy enough to get off...I used a 1/4" extension to put through one of the exhaust mounting holes for leverage to hold the turbo against the concrete ground while I wrench away at the mounting bolts...it works well enough, and this is how I got them all off.

http://www.saabcentral.com/phpgallery/albums/Turbo-Clock-Problems/hybrid_comp_wheel.jpg

For me, however, my compressor wheel was scored against the housing, so the compressor wheel needs to be replaced. Since this requires a re-balancing, I'm just turning it all over to a turbo shop who's willing to rebuild it for me at $150, plus $40 for the wheel, including balancing; another local turbo shop wanted $90 just for the balancing! :evil:

http://www.saabcentral.com/phpgallery/albums/Turbo-Clock-Problems/hybrid_cartridge.jpg

Pictured is my T3/T4 hybrid, without the housings on. The left side is the turbine, the thing in the middle the center cartridge, and the right side is the compressor portion. The thing on the oil fitting was left over from the previous owner, which I'll probably remove when I send it in. This turbo has some problems with it, the biggest of which is the cause of the scored wheel: too much axial play. This means the center cartridge is gone, and I need a new one.

http://www.saabcentral.com/phpgallery/albums/Turbo-Clock-Problems/centre_cartridge_0_75.jpg

I got this on eBay, but seems to be pretty reputable, and was built by Turbo International, which seems to build a lot of OEM replacement parts for all types of turbos, including Garrett, Mitsus, KKK, IHI, Holset, etc. and it cost me $50+S&H. I also needed a rebuild kit, and decided to buy Japanese with a 360 degree thrust bearing.

http://www.saabcentral.com/phpgallery/albums/Turbo-Clock-Problems/kamak_t3_bearing_kit.jpg

I was originally going to rebuild it myself, but now I'll just send all the parts in with the turbo to the shop and have them deal with it. The Kamak kit cost me around $90, so not cheap, but it's got a lot of upgraded seals and stuff. Also, the rebuild shop wanted to charge me $110 or so for just the 360 degree thrust bearing alone, so it's not bad in my eyes!

If you're just going to replace the seals themselves, then the seal kit is probably all you'll need, just as long as you mark everything so that a re-balance is not necessary! Good luck! ;)

li Arc

aznsaab
29-04-09, 11:52 AM
Being azn myself, I know how it's like squeezing every penny...and believe me, a project car requires a lot of squeezing!


lol being Asian has nothing to do with me pinching pennies. I think that has more to do with me being a University Student.;) Thanks for the advice and the pictures. That looks like some pretty serious carnage on the compressor side. Final exams started so I havn't gotten a chance to keep working. I'm going to disassemble the turbo further and have a look to see whats going on. I'm considering 4 options right now and once I get it apart I'm confident that will be the deciding factor on which route I go. 1) get a new T3 cartridge 2) Try and rebuild it myself using error correction factors 3) have it rebuilt professionally 4) scrap it and buy/consider other turbos, turbonetics, t3/t4, TD04 etc...

about error correction factors: This is an engineering theory I've developed. It has to do with things that have to be precise like turbo rotating assemblies. My theory is that if you build it with a low level of precision and the tolerances are off across the board... everything will a cancel itself out and it will be ok. for example say you are trying to build a rectangular frame. Let's say you cut one tube to small... and one to large. Eventually with enough finesse it will work itself out and you will have your frame through error correction factors. although it may not be square. I'm still developing the theory. haha.

EDIT: I like your description of "saab-ing". Trust me; being one myself, Saab is a Car for Engineers and Architects. Architects can truly appreciate the body/interior lines, Engineers can truly apprciate the intelligent nature of the design.

on a more serious note. How do I vent my crank case to the atmosphere instead of to the TB where it gums up the butterfly valve and screws my idle up?

mattsaab
29-04-09, 01:04 PM
lol being Asian has nothing to do with me pinching pennies. I think that has more to do with me being a University Student.;) Thanks for the advice and the pictures. That looks like some pretty serious carnage on the compressor side. Final exams started so I havn't gotten a chance to keep working. I'm going to disassemble the turbo further and have a look to see whats going on. I'm considering 4 options right now and once I get it apart I'm confident that will be the deciding factor on which route I go. 1) get a new T3 cartridge 2) Try and rebuild it myself using error correction factors 3) have it rebuilt professionally 4) scrap it and buy/consider other turbos, turbonetics, t3/t4, TD04 etc...

about error correction factors: This is an engineering theory I've developed. It has to do with things that have to be precise like turbo rotating assemblies. My theory is that if you build it with a low level of precision and the tolerances are off across the board... everything will a cancel itself out and it will be ok. for example say you are trying to build a rectangular frame. Let's say you cut one tube to small... and one to large. Eventually with enough finesse it will work itself out and you will have your frame through error correction factors. although it may not be square. I'm still developing the theory. haha.

EDIT: I like your description of "saab-ing". Trust me; being one myself, Saab is a Car for Engineers and Architects. Architects can truly appreciate the body/interior lines, Engineers can truly apprciate the intelligent nature of the design.

on a more serious note. How do I vent my crank case to the atmosphere instead of to the TB where it gums up the butterfly valve and screws my idle up?


Are you an architect? me too :lol: Although, not a good time to be one!

How about this economy? :roll:

li Arc
29-04-09, 01:34 PM
I like your description of "saab-ing". Trust me; being one myself, Saab is a Car for Engineers and Architects. Architects can truly appreciate the body/interior lines, Engineers can truly apprciate the intelligent nature of the design.

Interestingly enough, I believe this to be very true...I'll bet the majority of the people on these forums are engineers, be it one form or another...I myself am a double E in design and development, and funny enough you should mention it, I am also considering entering architecture in the future! It really does take an engineer or even experienced techs/mechanics to understand the true ingenuity of the Saab designs...everything about them is unique because they focus on the functional, and not just "oh, this looks nice here", or "ah, this will generate sales".

on a more serious note. How do I vent my crank case to the atmosphere instead of to the TB where it gums up the butterfly valve and screws my idle up?

There are catch cans you can find on eBray or many of the times locally that goes between the crank case ventilation port on the valve cover and the port on the intake piping between the turbo and the AMM that will allow you to capture the oil before it goes into the turbo, the IC, and the TB and coat everything. I believe you can find them for around $50 or less, depending on the quality, and are easy enough to install; IJ has installed one in his car, so it's discussed here (http://www.saabcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=84713&page=32) in his thread. I haven't done it myself just because I've still technically got AC so I can't mount at that point and have been lazy about finding one around town... :roll:

li Arc

aznsaab
30-04-09, 10:58 AM
Are you an architect? me too :lol: Although, not a good time to be one!

How about this economy? :roll:

well lucky for me it's a good time to be in school lol. Several of my friends who are graduating do not have a job or their offer has been taken back.

I'm studying to be a Mechanical Engineer at Michigan Technological University. When I'm not working on my personal cars I'm working on cars for the university. My project right now is designing and developing hybrid vehicles (well parts of them rather).

Here's a link to MTU's website
http://www.enterprise.mtu.edu/mtuhybrid/index.html
and here is one to the national event describing more of what EcoCAR is
http://www.ecocarchallenge.org/

Basically teams from several top engineering schools are provided a 2009 Saturn Vue and told to reduce emissions and increase fuel economy. The door is left wide open so there are a number of different solutions. It all comes down to maintaining stock vehicle performance, consumer acceptability, and how well the team executes the implementation. If anyone wants more details I'd be happy to discuss but I'll save everyone else the engineering bore.

Where do you work Li?

li Arc
30-04-09, 01:54 PM
I work for a company called Dynastream, which is now a division of Garmin. The company as a whole is focused on sports sensors and sensor networks, such as heart rate monitors, accelerometers/speed distance monitors, foot pods, bike power meters, watches, cadence sensors, etc. But to link all these sensors up to a central brain unit (ie. the watch or a cell phone or even a PC) we have a separate division developing ultra-low-power wireless mesh networking systems, which is what I'm involved in. They're low-bandwidth 2.4GHz systems, but they can last on a coin-cell battery for over a year...during our last symposium we were considering demonstrating powering our transmitters with a grape! Perhaps you have heard of the technology, it's called ANT, and it's gaining a wider and wider acceptance it seems. That's about all I can say about that, but yes, I'm faced with different engineering challenges every day, and it changes your perspective on many things, and helps you appreciate good functional design and intriguing solutions to difficult problems, like we see in Saabs!

Like they say, necessity is the mother of invention, and I think that's what changes our view of the world as engineers. :cool:

li Arc

aznsaab
01-08-09, 08:50 PM
So it's been awhile since my last update. The donor car has sat for the most part. I've been busy with summer classes and research work. I've finally gotten some time to resume the tear down. The only things left are the clutch, power steering, and oil cooler lines plus the ball joints and taper pin. I'm getting a cherry picker within the next week.

As I've been taking things apart some questions popped into my head. I was planning on taking my 91 with LH 2.4.2 and just retrofitting it with the donors LH 2.2. I was a little nervous about switching to such a primitive ignition system. That argument solved itself. The wiring harness for the LH 2.2 car is junk. almost every connecter/wire has corroded to the point that it crumbles away. I could rewire everything but that got me thinking.

What are the particlar difficulties when adding a turbocharger to the LH 2.4.2 system? As of right now I want to rebuild the turbo motor and trans. Then I want to put that into my '91 without doing a harness swap. So now I've got a motor with turbo pistons, turbo head and cams, and the turbo distributor. This is where I get lost. Does anyone with a better understaing of these control systems have any insight? It seems like their would be two electronic modules trying to control the same thing (APC & EZK). please help! I won't be able to sleep until I figure this out haha.

aznsaab
18-08-09, 01:13 AM
So I finally got the engine out. Summer classes and work took up most of the time I wanted to spend on this project but such is life right? The right lower ball joint was a pain and I ended up just removing the lower wishbone from the body. The shift linkage coupler was also an annoyance. I removed the taper pin but could not separate the coupler from the gear selector in the transmission. after bending a few things I removed the U joint that is behind the coupler. as I'm writing this the coupler is still frozen to the selector rod. One of the pictures confirms my purchase of a terrarium. A friend of mine found him hiding in the brake rotor. We also found a lot of feathers betwixt the engine and AC radiators. I'm not sure how that happens but I've now found mice, birds, snakes, and spiders in the car. I've been doing some research and I have concluded that I will have to go to megasquirt to control the fuel system when I drop this motor into my 91. I'm still trying to find answers with regards to the ignition system. My plan so far is to do the vacuum advance defeat on the turbo distributor and let the EZK (2.4.2) system adjust the timing. Does anyone see anything wrong with my logic or have any insight?

http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff270/aznsaab/GetAttachment1.jpg
Victory!
http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff270/aznsaab/GetAttachment.jpg
New Friend!
http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff270/aznsaab/IMG_1580.jpg
Bath Time for the engine
http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff270/aznsaab/IMG_1582.jpg
http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff270/aznsaab/IMG_1583.jpg
All Clean and waiting to be moved into the house

motomartin
20-08-09, 02:56 AM
that hood looks in pretty good shape - somebody somewhere is wanting that :D

aznsaab
20-08-09, 01:01 PM
it is rust free but would need some work. It had a nasty bend in it from an accident the previous owner had. It has a few dings and would need paint but it's solid. If anyone wants it let me know. I also have all of the interior parts and could be persuaded to part with them. Sorry in advance if this belongs in the classifieds =P

900t
20-08-09, 01:26 PM
Interestingly enough, I believe this to be very true...I'll bet the majority of the people on these forums are engineers, be it one form or another...I myself am a double E in design and development, and funny enough you should mention it, I am also considering entering architecture in the future! It really does take an engineer or even experienced techs/mechanics to understand the true ingenuity of the Saab designs...everything about them is unique because they focus on the functional, and not just "oh, this looks nice here", or "ah, this will generate sales".
li Arc

My situation is closest to aznsaab but being so far from Detroit GM doesn't give us any freebie stuff anymore (they have though multiple times in the past)

I almost cried seeing that engine on the hood though, what the heck! Sit it down on an old tire FFS

li Arc
21-08-09, 02:26 PM
I've been doing some research and I have concluded that I will have to go to megasquirt to control the fuel system when I drop this motor into my 91. I'm still trying to find answers with regards to the ignition system. My plan so far is to do the vacuum advance defeat on the turbo distributor and let the EZK (2.4.2) system adjust the timing. Does anyone see anything wrong with my logic or have any insight?

If you think about it, the mechanicals are the same between LH2.2 and LH2.4 systems, the only difference are in the sensors and electronics that are hooked up to the ECU. For LH2.2, sensors and electronics include AMM, IAC, TPS, injectors, O2, coolant temp, fuel pump, and perhaps AC shutoff at WOT. O2, injectors and fuel pump can probably stay, but the other sensors are different between LH2.2 and LH2.4, so just replace those. The mechanical properties of these sensors are the same, just the electrical properties and interface is different.

Same goes for MS, only for MS there are a few additions and deletions. Most notably, O2 changes to a wideband O2 (or at least, you may as well since that would be the point of going to MS if you ask me), but you've already got the correct TPS for it so that doesn't need to change. AMM is removed I think, an IAT sensor is added, tach stuff changes, injectors can change, and depending if you do electronic ignition or not, if could be just a single thing (wire to ignition amplifier) or a whole host of stuff (EDIS or other). I've been planning on going EDIS, and have all the parts, but haven't had time and just thinking about mounting and brackets gives me a headache!

I almost cried seeing that engine on the hood though, what the heck! Sit it down on an old tire FFS

Yes why why?? Each time I've swapped hoods (and I've swapped perhaps 4 or 5 to find a good hood that doesn't rust) after my first accident, I have a much better appreciation for a good condition hood! I find good condition hoods now and then at the yard, but I have to go through perhaps 10 C900's to find a good one, and the yard probably gets 1 or 2 C900's per month!

li Arc

johnvarenda
18-01-10, 05:03 AM
I am new to this forum and i don't know anything about Saabs but i am very much interested in learning about this Classic Saabs.
Can you give me the possible e-books.
Thanks...
.................
data entry india (http://www.e-datapro.net)