Viggen rolling acceleration video - am I tuned or not? [Archive] - SaabCentral Forums

: Viggen rolling acceleration video - am I tuned or not?


RITmusic2k
08-03-09, 12:00 AM
Now that I've got my sticky tires on the car, I can really feel how much power there is to work with in those low gears... and it's got me wondering whether the previous owner staged the car, because I have no idea how fast she should actually be in stock trim. She does have a 3" downpipe and an aftermarket 2.5" exhaust, but that's about all.

So, I decided to bust out the ol' CruiseCam and record a couple pulls.

Would any of you Viggen owners or tuner geniuses mind taking a look at this video and give me your off the cuff assessment?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_wkgzU01AP8

Pay no attention to the audio; the camera microphone is absolute crap and it makes everything sound way louder and more badass than it actually is.

saabkid37
08-03-09, 12:09 AM
wheres the boost gauge reading?

im kind of inclined to say that is tuned, although ive always thought mine is kinda slow.

other option is pull the ecu out and see if you see a nordic or sqr or the like marking.

RITmusic2k
08-03-09, 12:34 AM
The instrument cluster boost gauge goes between 1/2 and 3/4 of the way through the red. But then again I never gave that much credence; I've heard so many stories about variation and calibration issues that it's not possible to infer a measured boost level from that gauge.

And yeah, I think I'll pull the box tomorrow and see if there's any indication of... tampering :p

saabkid37
08-03-09, 12:43 AM
t7 is air mass so it depends on the temp and all but if your seeing that much red im 95% sure its got a box in it, especiall if its got 3 inch dp and exhaust since those are requirements for anything above a stage 11

comtrang
08-03-09, 03:32 AM
~60-90 was pretty quick, doesn't seem like a stock ECU.

SaabHat93
08-03-09, 03:58 AM
Is the engine temp gauge always that far down? Mine normally hangs out right in the middle. Were you doing those pulls cold? :o

Looks like we have the same Alpine deck, too. haha

RITmusic2k
08-03-09, 04:31 AM
Heh, no - I had the temp. gauge reconfigured while I was having other stuff fiddled with during a tech 2 reprogramming session...

Now the Horizontal Low and Horizontal High were both set to 90C, so there's no dead zone anymore; what you see in the video is where the needle sits when the engine is warm and it's getting adequate ventilation; it's about 85C.

lms
08-03-09, 09:22 AM
Pull back the carpet on pass side and check the ecu as some tuners will mark them. If this shows nothing then spend 80-100 bucks and bring it to a dyno.

RITmusic2k
09-03-09, 11:41 AM
Well, didn't get around to pulling the ECU; I'd like to see a dyno plot anyway - I'm gonna see what's available in my neighborhood.

LJ[MaVErICK]
10-03-09, 12:12 AM
0-60 looked stock to me but 60-100 did not... curious.

RITmusic2k
10-03-09, 12:20 PM
Well, I suppose it's conceivable that this mystery tune left the 1st and 2nd gear torque limits relatively intact, and didn't start the hardcore tinkering until 3rd and up?

Some other things I noticed; all the literature says that max torque is availabe from 2500rpm on... but I feel a definite torque bump right at 3000rpm in every gear. It feels like my SHO did when the secondary runners snapped open.

Regardless, all these questions of mine are going to get answered pretty soon; I found a shop right around the corner from me with a dynojet. $85 to screw around with her for an hour or so :)

I'll be sure to report as soon as I make the appointment and get some solid data.

Nor_Cal_Driver
10-03-09, 12:32 PM
Money on a aftermarket fuel map here.

Castor Troy
10-03-09, 02:16 PM
doesnt look stock to me.

K-900
10-03-09, 06:48 PM
I hate to burst your buble, and whilst its only from looking at your video, I have el cheapo tires on my viggen from the previous owner, and shes a 3990 lb vert. The acceleration looks to be the same as my car :confused: my boost gauge doesn't touch red - but as stated above the stock boost gauge really means nothing.

Glad to see your getting her dyno'd though. Will be interesting. remember IronJoes Viggen is bone stock and pulls 230 something WHEEL horsepower.

My car feels "cammy" at 3000 rpm. like the valves are awoken from their slumber. So maybe its the cams giving you that effect? I want to get mine dyno'd now :lol:

RITmusic2k
10-03-09, 07:28 PM
...I hate to burst your buble...

Dude. You're NOT bursting my bubble :cheesy:

Telling me the car is not tuned is the best news I could hear, because that means I have that much *more* improvement to expect when I do get into software changes.

My GS motor/tranny mounts and rear ARB just arrived, and I'm about to head home to start installing stuff. Once I get all the moving parts tightened up, it's gonna be time to juice her up :)

ViggenStory93
11-03-09, 12:47 AM
your car seems pretty fast bro, damn you got some nice goodies coming in lol.

RITmusic2k
11-03-09, 12:17 PM
Yeah, threw the ARB on last night; I think I'm going to start another thread devoted specifically to that. I have lots to say :p

svetlana900
11-03-09, 02:28 PM
if that is stock than it made my yearning for a viggen 1000000x worse



and lets hear about that arb :D

RITmusic2k
11-03-09, 06:01 PM
..and lets hear about that arb :D

As requested :) (http://www.saabcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=151679)

BlkPearl00
11-03-09, 08:22 PM
From looking at the tach your shift points were what; say 6,500 rpms - it looks like she's still pulling. True? Looks like it's staged.

I have a stock 00 Viggen and going past 6,000 rpms doesn't give me anything - no pull. I can't judge too well because my girl has 205,000 miles on her.

BTY: Nice choice in cars.

RITmusic2k
12-03-09, 03:52 PM
Nice choice in cars.

You too, sir!

Gabe 713
12-03-09, 05:52 PM
God I want a viggen my 900S is my baby and all but grr I CRAAAAVE!

Well I guess get college and a real job first right? :roll:

K-900
25-03-09, 10:04 PM
Had my camera in my car today and thought of this thread. Got a few videos and one of them was pretty good. Rolling acceleration from 25(ish) to 95 mph.

My car is a vert so its about 100-200 pounds heavier than a 5 door Viggen. Now apart from a cone filter - to the best of my knowledge the car is stock.
And I'm running el cheapo tires :lol:

anyway, clicky (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dG2_0Gpysgo&feature=channel_page)

RITmusic2k
25-03-09, 11:55 PM
Nice, man! I think you might be a hair faster than me.

I started snooping around a little further with my own car, actually... pulled my ECU and found this peculiarity:

http://lh6.ggpht.com/_pj2vLdnw2c0/Scr6k5NwhdI/AAAAAAAAAWA/zeBCyybYD98/s800/ECU.jpg

The VIN sticker at the top of the box (matching my car) was originally covering the original bar-coded sticker below it. So, my car is not running its original ECU. The box that's currently controlling my car once belonged to an 02 'vert with an auto tranny. There's no BDM header soldered to the board, so really... my discovery is inconclusive... just peculiar.

So, does a Saab dealer swap out a malfunctioning ECU with one scavenged from another car? If not, how did that thing get there?

Kip
26-03-09, 07:53 AM
I remember that the early trionic 7 ecu's were recalled. But i doubt it would get a whole different vin number like that.
But maybe your's originally didn't get recalled and broke later.

You don't need to solder BDM pins to flash a trionic 7 ecu. It's less trouble to do it via CAN-BUS, the BSR PPC is a good example or this kind of flashing.

I guess that the only certain way is to download the software from the ecu.

K-900
26-03-09, 10:26 AM
thats very interesting. You've made me want to check mine now. Upon cleaning the interior of my car the other day, and the removal of my back seat a few weeks ago I noticed a lot of interior trim pieces like door cards were either missing fasteners, or were not using the original ones from factory. Under the back seat I found a razor blade with what I pressume to be cocain on it :o - nice to know what the PO's were up to. and I also found some surface rust on the floor plan.
Sometimes think I bought a lemon... a fast one though :lol:

RITmusic2k
26-03-09, 11:53 AM
I guess that the only certain way is to download the software from the ecu.

Yeah, I already have a couple spare ECUs and T7Suite, and all the BDM headers and soldering equipment I'll ever need; I just haven't pulled the trigger on that damn PEmicro cable yet. I should just bite the bullet, thank the gods that California held up their end of the deal and paid up my state tax return IOU, and get one. It'll be more cost-effective than plenty of other mods...

Kip
26-03-09, 11:57 AM
Yeah, I already have a couple spare ECUs and T7Suite, and all the BDM headers and soldering equipment I'll ever need; I just haven't pulled the trigger on that damn PEmicro cable yet. I should just bite the bullet, thank the gods that California held up their end of the deal and paid up my state tax return IOU, and get one. It'll be more cost-effective than plenty of other mods...

Why not the CAN-USB cable/adapter?
Those are expensive, but you could use the other t7 suite functions with it.

RITmusic2k
26-03-09, 12:23 PM
Why not the CAN-USB cable/adapter?
Those are expensive, but you could use the other t7 suite functions with it.

From what I understand, flashing via the CAN bus can occasionally glitch out, and then I'd need to get a BDM connection anyway to salvage the ECU; I figured I'd start with the ol' faithful BDM route for now, and wait 'till they manage to crack the 'live write to SRAM' feature before I switch over to the CAN connection. And at that point, I'd go all-out and set up a carPC with a permanent connection so I could do it all from the dashboard.

Out of curiosity, what are the T7Suite CAN features I'd be missing out on right now? is it all datalogging stuff, or what?

Kip
26-03-09, 02:23 PM
From what I understand, flashing via the CAN bus can occasionally glitch out, and then I'd need to get a BDM connection anyway to salvage the ECU;

That's true, but you don't have to use the PEMicro one.
Most people use this one:
http://cgi.ebay.de/BDM-Interface-f-Nokia-DBOX1-Saab-Trionic-Motorola-HC_W0QQitemZ360141034141QQcmdZViewItemQQptZDE_Elek tronik_Computer_TV_Video_Elektronik_TV_Receiver?ha sh=item360141034141&_trksid=p3911.c0.m14&_trkparms=72%3A1229%7C66%3A2%7C65%3A12%7C39%3A1%7C 240%3A1318



I figured I'd start with the ol' faithful BDM route for now, and wait 'till they manage to crack the 'live write to SRAM' feature before I switch over to the CAN connection. And at that point, I'd go all-out and set up a carPC with a permanent connection so I could do it all from the dashboard.

Out of curiosity, what are the T7Suite CAN features I'd be missing out on right now? is it all datalogging stuff, or what?

It's mostly datalogging stuff and the write to ram bit. But that's oh so handy.

RITmusic2k
26-03-09, 04:11 PM
Thanks for the info; unfortunately I don't have access to a computer with a serial port. I know someone was working on a serial->USB converter, but I don't think it's been solved yet...

The lawicel canusb looks to be about $150; but isn't that only for flashing anyway? Or can I use it to read my ECU? If so, I'll pick one up right away...

EDIT: after a little more reading at ecuproject.com, it looks like I can read from CAN... I guess it's time to make a purchase :-p

IronJoe
26-03-09, 05:11 PM
Hmm... can't really tell whether that's stock or not.

I would recommend hooking up a graduated boost gauge and checking your base boost & full boost, and report back with results.

RITmusic2k
14-05-09, 09:14 PM
Alright, kids, I have some updates -

I still haven't made it to the dyno yet, but I did purchase a scangauge II that let me look a little deeper into my engine's performance.

As per IronJoe's suggestion, I just did some boost testing.

A quick note: in order to create a boost gauge with the scangauge, one must create a custom gauge off an ecu parameter and perform some math on it. In this case, I have the gauge reading manifold absolute pressure (in psi) as reported by the ECU, then I subtract 15.0 from that value. I live more or less at sea level, and when the car sits there with the engine off, manifold absolute presure reads as high as 15.0psi. It's frequently less than that, however, so depending on true atmospheric pressure, my boost gauge as calibrated can sometimes lowball its values.

So, here's what I discovered on the way home from work today: I can't measure a difference between base boost and peak boost. During a WOT run, boost peaks at 15psi, then tapers off to about 14.8psi and holds steady. When I checked base boost, I used the genuinesaab.com technique and did a 3rd gear pull, braking at 3000rpm. I still got 15psi. Now, there's about a 1 second lag in the scangauge display, so there's a chance I just didn't hold it long enough to see the boost gauge go back down to base boost levels.

But that aside, I believe I remember reading that a stock Viggen will boost up to 12psi at sea level, and will go up to 20psi at altitude in order to achieve its target power production. Since I'm getting right up to 15psi, this means I have something dialed up somewhere.

Is it possible that my base boost is set to 15psi, and that's why I don't see a difference?


EDIT: Also notable - there's a horsepower gauge built into the scangauge. There's not really any info online about how the device computes this, but we can assume that it's reporting a derived value for bhp. Mine consistently peaks at 308hp. I'm positive there is some inherent error, but I don't know what percentage that error is. There was a guy on the mini cooper forums that said his scangauge showed him peaking at over 500hp... though I don't know if he has his gauge calibrated properly. There are settings to compensate for observed vehicle speed vs. reported speed, and the same for fuel consumption. I read that if these values are out of whack, it can throw off hp readings. Mine is calibrated. So, more food for thought. I'll make it to the dyno eventually and put this whole thing to bed.

RITmusic2k
15-05-09, 11:02 AM
Further update:

I was a little more rigorous in my testing this evening, and I think these are my values:

Base boost: 14.0psi
Peak boost: 16.1psi

lms
15-05-09, 11:39 AM
You say your base boost is 14psi? I'm not even sure you can adjust the stock actuator to even achieve bb that high, maybe with an external spring? There is a way to check base boost besides third gear way, take hose C and connect it to hose w. Pretty sure what you are seeing is just the ecu retarding timing which gets you to 14 psi as BB is the value your car will achieve when it goes into limp mode/etc.
When I lived in Ca or 32 ft above sea level, my stock viggen boosted in and around 12 psi, dropping to around 9 or 10 depending on temp and this was with 91 octane. My bb was set at 6.2.

IronJoe
15-05-09, 11:50 AM
Further update:

I was a little more rigorous in my testing this evening, and I think these are my values:

Base boost: 14.0psi
Peak boost: 16.1psi

That doesn't sound right at all...


Can you explain how you are testing base boost? This should be as simple as unplugging the BPC and going for a drive.

Generally base boost is 1/2 your full boost - if your numbers are correct, someone has seriously wrenched on the wastegate rod to achieve that high of base boost... I'd be wary of that WG actuator being overadjusted in that case.

My numbers were around 14psi full boost, 6.something base boost. My stock viggen dyno'd at 230whp.

RITmusic2k
15-05-09, 02:05 PM
That doesn't sound right at all...


Can you explain how you are testing base boost? This should be as simple as unplugging the BPC and going for a drive.

Generally base boost is 1/2 your full boost - if your numbers are correct, someone has seriously wrenched on the wastegate rod to achieve that high of base boost... I'd be wary of that WG actuator being overadjusted in that case.

My numbers were around 14psi full boost, 6.something base boost. My stock viggen dyno'd at 230whp.

Hmm, the thought of unplugging BPC completely skipped my mind. I followed the instructions here:

http://www.genuinesaab.com/psi/files2/T7%20ck%20boost%20pressure%20on%20road.pdf

About to go out for lunch; I'll try unplugging the BPC and see what happens.

lms
15-05-09, 02:24 PM
Hmm, the thought of unplugging BPC completely skipped my mind. I followed the instructions here:

http://www.genuinesaab.com/psi/files2/T7%20ck%20boost%20pressure%20on%20road.pdf

About to go out for lunch; I'll try unplugging the BPC and see what happens.
That is not the proper way to check base boost via T7. Granted, it will give you a general idea, but if you want an exact measurement, follow my directions or nick's. If unplugging the bpc on a T7 was the right way to do it, then Nick would not post the third gear method.

IronJoe
15-05-09, 02:41 PM
That is not the proper way to check base boost via T7. Granted, it will give you a general idea, but if you want an exact measurement, follow my directions or nick's. If unplugging the bpc on a T7 was the right way to do it, then Nick would not post the third gear method.

Well obviously he needs a "second opinion" on his test - I am extremely skeptical that his base boost is truly at 14psi.

By unplugging the BPC, you are removing the ecu's control over the boost - this would revert the car to basic boost pressure, would it not? It worked properly when I tested my viggen...

RITmusic2k
15-05-09, 03:54 PM
Okay, by unplugging the BPC I observed the following:

I was able to get boost to peak at 3.9psi for all of a split second. It would consistently hold between 0.6psi and 0.8psi on WOT runs in any gear.

.......

It's entirely possible that the test I performed according to Nick's instructions won't work correctly with a scangauge; maybe I need a vacuum tube physically connected to a pressure gauge?

lms, I'll try your method next.

RITmusic2k
15-05-09, 03:59 PM
...take hose C and connect it to hose w...

So, you're saying I should unplug both C and W hoses, and couple them to each other and leave the BPC nipples open? Or are you saying unplug both C and W hoses, then plug C hose into W nipple, leaving W hose and C nipple open? Or have I just completely misinterpreted you?

lms
15-05-09, 04:28 PM
Take c and w hose off of BPC and attach them together. What this does is take the BPC completely out of the picture. When I unplugged the electrical connection at the BPC I got 6.5 and was told by vigge that this was not the proper way to do it like one does on a T5 or older model Saabs like my spg. I did it his way (c and w) and got 7.1. But letís say you use the c and w method, then I would say based on my measurements that your BB would only be 4.5 (hypothetically) which would be way low as it should be 6-6.5. Don't forget to test BB at different rpm's to see how car reacts BB wise.

RITmusic2k
15-05-09, 04:31 PM
Ah, thanks for this, lms! I'll give that a shot and see where we go.

I'm not too inclined to try the brake procedure again since I've noticed some clutch slipping since i tried it; might've glazed her a bit. Though looking on the bright side, this means I might get to go for the lightweight flywheel / spec clutch upgrade sooner than I was planning on :cheesy: