Vtuner purchased [Archive] - SaabCentral Forums

: Vtuner purchased


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technog0d
13th January 2009, 02:41 PM
I should get the vtuner kit for my 2008 aero tomorrow. I can't wait to test it.

I tell you guys what i think once it's installed. I have a big trip thursday and friday. This should give me plenty of time to try it out.

yspaik
13th January 2009, 02:57 PM
By the gains he reports, the tune should be impressive over stock... congrats

08Aero9-3
13th January 2009, 04:29 PM
Yes Please a nice review would be great. I have been waiting for an 08 Aero to try it out. Let me know what you think. I talked to vtuner about it and everything just haven't bought it yet. Maybe test on a dyno and se the numbers?
http://www.saabcentral.com/forums/images/icons/icon_cheesygrin.gif

technog0d
13th January 2009, 05:02 PM
I don't mind being the scapegoat. I am hoping it will work out pretty well. I am VERY excited about trying it out tomorrow. I think a lot of people have kept away just because he's the little guy. I hoping to prove that that David can sometime beat Goliath. I will definitely post a review this weekend. After I have had a few days of real driving with it.

Regards,

Technog0d

SpoolinUpBlue
13th January 2009, 05:16 PM
I can't wait to read on this.


What happens if you decide to add mods to your car and need a retune, is there a charge for this?

Gomo187
13th January 2009, 07:11 PM
I think a lot of people have kept away just because he's the little guy. I hoping to prove that that David can sometime beat Goliath.


While I agree that many people have kept away because he is the little guy, I don't think this is the only reason. I kept away for a few reasons, and one of them was not that I don't wish for him to succeed. I do wish him all the best.

And this is not a case of David vs Goliath....BSR has created what they consider a "safe" tune. Meaning that by tuning your car with their software they believe you are not risking damaging your engine or transmission components. Where as it seems VTuner went more to push the limits of the engine. Which is fine if you plan to do racing with your car, and can afford tranny and clutchwork sooner than most will. But stability of your car over a long period of time is still unknown, as he has only been doing the tuning a short time. Honestly, accoring to his number he beats BSRs tune hands down...Im just saying that it could come at the price of some of your other components.

I hate to sound like I am putting Vtuner down in this post, but I just hate to see an unfair comparison between the 2 because its not a level playing field. Im sure BSR knows theres more power to be had, but did not want complaints after about things breaking, thats all.

technog0d
13th January 2009, 08:24 PM
You know I look at that a couple of ways... BSR is in the business to make money. They have multiple stages for every car they have tuning packages for. When you look at tuning they generally offer stages 1, 2, and 3. They would like to entice you with stage 1 and then have you purchase stage 2 and/or 3. This is good business practice. It's marketing. When you look at what BSR offers in stage 3, it's an exhaust, injectors and a turbo upgrade. None of those are going to help you with your axels or engine components like pistons, etc... So i guess the real question is how much can the existing injectors and turbo handle. If Vtuner is within the normal operating range than i don't see a problem. I imagine the turbo upgrade is just s bigger wheel. They don't specify. I definitely believe BSR is a good tune, but i think they would like you to purchase their other options. It is just good business and i cannot fault them for that.

To use another example, many of the base turbo cars can usually perform to the same specs of their more expensive counterparts, but they detune them in order to not compete with their more expensive models in their category. For example... The audi 2.0T is around 210 horsepower and the v6 is 250 hp or something like that. They could make them the same HP but then alot of people would not justify the cost of the more expensive model.


THe other option may be true. Maybe BSR is tuning what they think is good for the car. The Vtuner can be tuned down since the software is provided to tweak the tune. At least you have the capability to really see what your car is doing and then make decisions on how to tune or detune the car.

I don't mean for this to be anything against BSR. I support all tuning companies. I just think we may be getting a better deal with vtuner. I guess i will find out tomorrow. :-)

Regards to all,

Technog0d

saab19
14th January 2009, 01:59 AM
honestly, I really think that the vtuner vs. bsr/other tuners war has been played out far too much already.

let's not get into that again because it's boring and not helpful to anyone

we eagerly await your review

SAABRoma
15th January 2009, 01:47 PM
honestly, I really think that the vtuner vs. bsr/other tuners war has been played out far too much already.

let's not get into that again because it's boring and not helpful to anyone

we eagerly await your review

I second that motion.

technog0d
15th January 2009, 06:26 PM
arghh my cars flatbedded!!! No... Just kidding :-)

So here's how it went:

- Ordered the kit from Vtuner overnight
- Got confirmation that kit was delivered along with an activation key and serial number for the HP Tuner interface
- I am very impatient so i wanted everything ahead of time and Brian at Vtuner was graeful enough to send me everything i would need in order to prepare everything

This means the instructions, and new map.

Here is the process....

- install HP Tuner's latest version of vsuite on my Acer Aspire one that i bought just for this purpose.
- Plug in the HP Tuner MPVI interface via usb into the laptop and install drivers
- bring laptop and interface to the car and connect interface to ODBII port
- Download the cars base config and store it in a safe place. This process took about 25 minutes and only needs to be done once.
- Open by compare the new Vtuner map and apply differences. This process takes about 30 seconds.
-Turn car on and hope for no BOOM!

All and all a very simple process.

More IMPORTANT:

How does it drive???

All I can say is WOW! What a difference. You really have to be careful not to gun it in 1st because even your tracktion control will be like, "What's up?!!"

I have to first state the the tune is very linear in nature. Meaning that it all of the acceleration feels very strong and smooth. I cannot vouch for the internal temperatures of all the engine components under the new stress.

But, It doesn't feel like I am stressing the car, even though I have all of this extra power. I am not getting and CELs or other alerts and everything seems to work as advertised.

I took a long ride to connecticut this morning from Philadelphia. Unfortunately it was snowing most of the way. So, I couldn't really test the perfomance today. I am staying in New york today and I did have a 335 coupe try and race me, but there wasn't alot of room with traffic. I definitly out accelerated him, but he did give me a good run.

I will post some more specific information and long term results as i drive it more. In the mean time please feel free to ask.

I just have to say it has been a very pleasant experience dealing with Brian at Vtuners and so far I would really recommend it. Again, I will update with more long term results in the future.

One more thing... I think someone asked if it could be tuned for other modifications. My answer would be defintely... You get the Whole HP tuner suite which is in itself more expensive to by direct from HP Tuners than what the Tune cost with the HP suite from Vtuners. If you know enough you can tune it yourself, or Brian said he would charge a fee for creating a new map, if he doesn't have one for your scenario.

Regards to all,

Technog0d

Discreet
16th January 2009, 10:38 AM
nice! :D enjoy reading reviews.

Cosmicflash
16th January 2009, 12:55 PM
Wow technogod!

You are one gutsy and gamblin' man:p Good luck and keep us posted how things go especially long term.

I'm guessing I've got the most BSR tuned miles (at 53,000 mi. and tuned at 4,000) so we'll have to compare notes.

SpoolinUpBlue
16th January 2009, 01:24 PM
thanks for the review!

I am also looking at going this way. My last tuned car was done by an individual who came recommended to me by a few people, and he even used HPtuner. The car ran great with no problems.

I guess i will bite the bullet and start working on getting this

stripedrex
27th January 2009, 01:52 AM
I have nothing but good things to say about communicating with Brian. I'm actually heading out to VT on vacation and meeting him for the reflash, hoping to road tune a bit to really make the numbers solid and fine tuned for my wife's car. I will have some dyno time with my car which is a subaru turbo (going meth injection to maintain summer performance in the heat :cheesy: ) and will hopefully have some extra cash to strap up the wife's snaab =p). I'll be able to report a baseline and VTuner Stage 0 chart.

Personally I think anyone who has a tuned car (even off the shelf) should be able to connect their laptop and log on occassion to make sure the numbers are ok (even better are to have the right gauges). I've been stage 3 with my Subaru for 20k miles now with no issues. A few times I've posted weird numbers when logging which turned out to be a loose hose. Getting a BSR which doesn't allow me to log or tune the car isn't an option for me. I LOVE how VTuner comes with HP Tuner software. Well known software in the tuning community. Now if I bolt on other power adders I can have the car retuned specifically for the new part. Safer long term imo. Each car is slightly different, I will always road tune / protune my cars. My $.02

You can even remote tune (email logs and get emailed back updated maps).

toplessFC3Sman
27th January 2009, 10:28 AM
I wish the VTuner was available for the 2.0T engine too, I'd love to be able to modify the tune myself.

stripedrex
27th January 2009, 12:23 PM
Technogod when you're ready, please put a dry weather review on the tune =). Are you datalogging? How to the numbers look, can you post a datalog? =)

NinjaZX6R
27th January 2009, 01:36 PM
*subscribed*

I pick up my '06 9-3 Aero SS 6m today. You can bet that I'll be ordering a vtuner before long.

I've spoken to Brian a few times as well. Hands down the most helpful and knowledgeable person I've ever talked to regarding this stuff.

-Collin-

Supergilson
27th January 2009, 09:32 PM
Brian knows his stuff, and he's not afraid to help you if you need it. It's more powerful than BSR, cheaper, and great support.

I just got his upgrade working yesterday, and besides for fearing for my life when that turbo gauge tops out, everything is great!

cheers indeed!

NinjaZX6R
27th January 2009, 09:50 PM
Brian knows his stuff, and he's not afraid to help you if you need it. It's more powerful than BSR, cheaper, and great support.

I just got his upgrade working yesterday, and besides for fearing for my life when that turbo gauge tops out, everything is great!

cheers indeed!

Awesome...another user!

Can you give an approximate 0-60 time? I want to see if it's in line with Brian's times. Thanks!

-Collin-

Supergilson
27th January 2009, 09:55 PM
Awesome...another user!

Can you give an approximate 0-60 time? I want to see if it's in line with Brian's times. Thanks!

-Collin-




On PA roads this time of year? Sorry!

Perhaps when they thaw and the cinders go away, I will have figured out how to launch without spinning the tires the whole way to 60mph and I'll give you a good time!:p

NinjaZX6R
28th January 2009, 01:30 PM
On PA roads this time of year? Sorry!

Perhaps when they thaw and the cinders go away, I will have figured out how to launch without spinning the tires the whole way to 60mph and I'll give you a good time!:p

Dude! Just put some chains on buddy! :D

I understand. Guess I take this sunny California weather for granted right now.

After driving this thing for a few hours yesterday for the FIRST time ever...I am going to agree that this engine is just begging to be unlocked for more power!

-Collin-

technog0d
29th January 2009, 03:13 PM
Everything still seems pretty good, about 1000 miles later. I do note some rough starts every once in a while, but i believe it is unrelated as I seemed to have them before the upgrade too.

I will continue to post some more as the whether warms up...

twarner776
30th January 2009, 09:27 AM
Everything still seems pretty good, about 1000 miles later. I do note some rough starts every once in a while, but i believe it is unrelated as I seemed to have them before the upgrade too.

I will continue to post some more as the whether warms up...


I have some rough idle when 1st starting with the BSR tune as well. I do not notice it as much as when the car is untuned which it has been for about 2 months.

Dach
30th January 2009, 01:34 PM
I've sat and tested BSR and Nordic tuned Aeros. I am sure it wasn't my imagination that the BSR one seemed to idle rougher.

Cosmicflash
30th January 2009, 02:16 PM
I've sat and tested BSR and Nordic tuned Aeros. I am sure it wasn't my imagination that the BSR one seemed to idle rougher.

I'm quite sure the tunes of whoever has no effect on idle or any non-boost performance. Vtuners might have more of an effect but typically any tune or chip only effects when under heavy load (ie, into the red boost zone:p)

Dach
30th January 2009, 11:43 PM
Yeah I thought so too. but it was just an observation from my point. but I sat in too few cars to make a noticeable observation.

VTuner
1st February 2009, 08:19 AM
I leave the idle conditions close to stock, but from just off idle and higher there are many changes other than full throttle. I remap many parameters over the entire rpm/load range, including cam timing, throttle response, boost, AFR and spark advance which will alter performance under part throttle as well as full throttle.

Cheers,
VTuner

I'm quite sure the tunes of whoever has no effect on idle or any non-boost performance. Vtuners might have more of an effect but typically any tune or chip only effects when under heavy load (ie, into the red boost zone:p)

OUSaab
4th February 2009, 03:07 PM
i know that tuning cars isn't nice on fuel consumption but could you let us know what kind of mpg's you guys are getting.

stripedrex
4th February 2009, 03:29 PM
i know that tuning cars isn't nice on fuel consumption but could you let us know what kind of mpg's you guys are getting.

Well it depends, I have a tuned Subaru and getting better MPG than it was untuned. Reason being is usually when you tune for more power you're also making boost "leaner" which means there's more air to fuel in the ratio. That being the case you're using less fuel at similar power. So, believe it or not, I get 1 to 2 mpg better on my FXT at 292whp than when it was stock (190whp). It's not a fair test however because I also changed turbos, even so you would suspect more fuel consumption. Part of this result is also I would hammer the car more stock hoping it would go faster so your foot has a lot to do with the result. Generally if you're mostly offboost or low boost MPG will be pretty much the same.

saab19
4th February 2009, 03:52 PM
I believe from what I've read on here that the BSR PPC also results in better mileage

NinjaZX6R
4th February 2009, 06:47 PM
So, anyone other than technog0d have the Vtuner installed? I am inches away from ordering, just clearing up some last minute questions with Brian. Anyone have to change their clutch after 20k miles or anything of that nature? :lol:

-Collin-

Supergilson
4th February 2009, 06:58 PM
Do it! I have no experience with BSR, but Brian is excellent with his support.

NinjaZX6R
4th February 2009, 06:59 PM
Do it! I have no experience with BSR, but Brian is excellent with his support.

He sure is.

I hope he's not married because if he is, his wife might think I'm his "other girlfriend" by the amount of emails I send him! Hahahaha.

-Collin-

Gomo187
4th February 2009, 07:23 PM
So, anyone other than technog0d have the Vtuner installed? I am inches away from ordering, just clearing up some last minute questions with Brian. Anyone have to change their clutch after 20k miles or anything of that nature? :lol:

-Collin-

I think Vtuners only been doing this less than a year, so if someone besides himself have gone 20k thats pretty impressive driving....

NinjaZX6R
4th February 2009, 07:25 PM
I think Vtuners only been doing this less than a year, so if someone besides himself have gone 20k thats pretty impressive driving....

Guess that's true. Obviously no one else has put on the mileage that he has. Basically I'm just looking for any last minute issues before I order. Honestly, the 150 ft lbs gain is what is really worrying me. I just can't imagine Saab leaving that kind of performance out on the table for the taking without a good reason. :nono;

-Collin-

Gomo187
4th February 2009, 07:28 PM
Guess that's true. Obviously no one else has put on the mileage that he has. Basically I'm just looking for any last minute issues before I order. Honestly, the 150 ft lbs gain is what is really worrying me. I just can't imagine Saab leaving that kind of performance out on the table for the taking without a good reason. :nono;

-Collin-

Ya, other than Vtuners findings, I think its just too early to tell. Only one way to find out though....

stripedrex
4th February 2009, 09:36 PM
I think Vtuners only been doing this less than a year, so if someone besides himself have gone 20k thats pretty impressive driving....

You don't judge a tune only by how long a tuner's been tuning or how far people have driven with it. You judge it by logging and monitoring engine behavior after the tune. How it handles fuel trims, knock, boost, temp, and the style of which he handles throttle response etc. Over time you do see how it behaves at different altitudes and different weather. Good ECUs adjust for that on their own along with other map settings.

I'll stress again wether it's an out of the box tune created conservatively in staged applications or a custom protune, you should be monitoring your car. I personally don't like engine management upgrades with no logging. I'm more comfortable getting Brian's tune b/c it comes with HPTuners. If we see in the logs there's problems we can fix it. You can't do that with flashing systems that don't log.

stripedrex
4th February 2009, 10:00 PM
Guess that's true. Obviously no one else has put on the mileage that he has. Basically I'm just looking for any last minute issues before I order. Honestly, the 150 ft lbs gain is what is really worrying me. I just can't imagine Saab leaving that kind of performance out on the table for the taking without a good reason. :nono;

-Collin-

I a bit skeptical about the "exact" gain as well, I happened to have a GTech accelerometer so I'll try to do a baseline and post tune log. It's not 100% accurate these GTechs, but it'll show where it's improved by roughly how much.

Thing is, a V6 running a small twin scroll TD04 at 8.5psi is stock it pretty conservative. If the intake and exhaust can breath enough out of the box and if the injectors / fuel pump can handle it, that increase might be possible. For reference a stock subaru wrx uses the same turbo but single scroll on a v4. Stock it makes 234.2 lb/tq with an increase of about 70tq going from 12psi boost to 16.5 as a standard wrx stage 2. With a V6 with a similar turbo going from 8.5psi to let's say 14, that's a HUGE difference ofcourse noting the rest of the system can support it. I'm guessing Saab's cats are not that restrictive?

Either case I really want HPTuners, a solid base tune to work with, and a tuner I can toubleshoot with if there's problems (what's nice is you can send logs and troubleshoot with any tuner =). If it's 150tq increase or 100, it's not as important to me. I'm sure this tune will knock my sox off compared to stock =p.

lmpreza
5th February 2009, 01:14 AM
I a bit skeptical about the "exact" gain as well, I happened to have a GTech accelerometer so I'll try to do a baseline and post tune log. It's not 100% accurate these GTechs, but it'll show where it's improved by roughly how much.

Thing is, a V6 running a small twin scroll TD04 at 8.5psi is stock it pretty conservative. If the intake and exhaust can breath enough out of the box and if the injectors / fuel pump can handle it, that increase might be possible. For reference a stock subaru wrx uses the same turbo but single scroll on a v4. Stock it makes 234.2 lb/tq with an increase of about 70tq going from 12psi boost to 16.5 as a standard wrx stage 2. With a V6 with a similar turbo going from 8.5psi to let's say 14, that's a HUGE difference ofcourse noting the rest of the system can support it. I'm guessing Saab's cats are not that restrictive?

Either case I really want HPTuners, a solid base tune to work with, and a tuner I can toubleshoot with if there's problems (what's nice is you can send logs and troubleshoot with any tuner =). If it's 150tq increase or 100, it's not as important to me. I'm sure this tune will knock my sox off compared to stock =p.

Stock Subaru WRX (02-05) models use a TD04L-13T, not a TD04L-15T twin scroll, like the HFV6 does.
The Subaru WRX is a H4, not a V4.
The Subaru WRX makes about... ~160 wtq stock, not 232.
A Stage 2 WRX makes MAYBE 230 wtq, MAYBE.

It was rated at 217 bare torque, which, after you factor in he 25% drivetrain loss, its more like 160wtq.

saab19
5th February 2009, 01:17 AM
I'm not sure why anyone's worried about the 150ft/lb that saab "didn't use" or whatever. Many manufacturers do not tune engines to their "full potential".
I mean, Honda used to have a 2.0 in the S2000 that put out 240hp to the turbo'd 2.0 in the 9-3's 210 (or 175!). A 2.8 V6 with a turbo should be able to hit that 150ft/lb no problem, and I don't think I'd be overly worried about the tranny.

VTuner
5th February 2009, 07:47 AM
The 2.8Ts use a TD04HLB-15TK3 turbo to be precise, which flows more than the turbos under discussion. I have already shown Dynojet data with baseline references to demonstrate that we can produce over 330 hp with this turbo in this motor with stock components. I have hit 480 lb-ft of torque as well under limited testing.

The peak power capability of any turbo also depends on the volumetric efficiency of the motor in addition to the different compressors, turbines, housings, single scroll vs twin scroll variables, ball bearings, etc.

With a few reasonable upgrades we should be able to hit 360-400hp for the next stage, provided that there is enough interest in Stage 0. I am working on Stage 1 currently.

Cheers
VTuner

Gomo187
5th February 2009, 08:05 AM
You don't judge a tune only by how long a tuner's been tuning or how far people have driven with it. You judge it by logging and monitoring engine behavior after the tune. How it handles fuel trims, knock, boost, temp, and the style of which he handles throttle response etc. Over time you do see how it behaves at different altitudes and different weather. Good ECUs adjust for that on their own along with other map settings.

I'll stress again wether it's an out of the box tune created conservatively in staged applications or a custom protune, you should be monitoring your car. I personally don't like engine management upgrades with no logging. I'm more comfortable getting Brian's tune b/c it comes with HPTuners. If we see in the logs there's problems we can fix it. You can't do that with flashing systems that don't log.

I get what your saying, but it really has nothing to do with what I was telling Ninja. I was only answering the guys question....he wanted to know if anyone has had to replace a clutch or any other significant problems... I wasnt judging VTuner for the amount of time hes been doing this, I was simply stating that his tune has not been available to purchase for a long time, therefore those types of problems probably have not been seen to this point. And I got nothing against you wanting to monitor your car, but I dont have time to drive around with a laptop connected, so to each his own...

VTuner
5th February 2009, 08:23 AM
I like the MSD Dashhawk for this purpose, it is much more convenient than a laptop for daily use. During development I would always have it up showing at least Wideband AFR, MAF,Absolute Load, Ignition Advance, and Cat Temp for easy viewing. I actually had about 25 major parameters that I could quickly cycle through in pre-configured windows. I think the Dashhawk is down to about $300 now.

I get what your saying, but it really has nothing to do with what I was telling Ninja. I was only answering the guys question....he wanted to know if anyone has had to replace a clutch or any other significant problems... I wasnt judging VTuner for the amount of time hes been doing this, I was simply stating that his tune has not been available to purchase for a long time, therefore those types of problems probably have not been seen to this point. And I got nothing against you wanting to monitor your car, but I dont have time to drive around with a laptop connected, so to each his own...

Supergilson
7th February 2009, 06:24 PM
sign me up for stage 1




The 2.8Ts use a TD04HLB-15TK3 turbo to be precise, which flows more than the turbos under discussion. I have already shown Dynojet data with baseline references to demonstrate that we can produce over 330 hp with this turbo in this motor with stock components. I have hit 480 lb-ft of torque as well under limited testing.

The peak power capability of any turbo also depends on the volumetric efficiency of the motor in addition to the different compressors, turbines, housings, single scroll vs twin scroll variables, ball bearings, etc.

With a few reasonable upgrades we should be able to hit 360-400hp for the next stage, provided that there is enough interest in Stage 0. I am working on Stage 1 currently.

Cheers
VTuner

vteccured
8th February 2009, 02:46 AM
The 2.8Ts use a TD04HLB-15TK3 turbo to be precise, which flows more than the turbos under discussion. I have already shown Dynojet data with baseline references to demonstrate that we can produce over 330 hp with this turbo in this motor with stock components. I have hit 480 lb-ft of torque as well under limited testing.

The peak power capability of any turbo also depends on the volumetric efficiency of the motor in addition to the different compressors, turbines, housings, single scroll vs twin scroll variables, ball bearings, etc.

With a few reasonable upgrades we should be able to hit 360-400hp for the next stage, provided that there is enough interest in Stage 0. I am working on Stage 1 currently.

Cheers
VTuner


as soon as that stage 1 comes out... im ready to pick it up!!!

Whats up vtuner... its been a while.

JOHN

VTuner
8th February 2009, 08:18 AM
Great to hear from you John! How is the Audi project coming along and have you been able to pry your wife away from the Aero yet?!

With the weather starting to warm up (43F hear in Sheldon VT today) and the roads becoming usable again I am beginning to work on the next stage. I will let you know when I have some information to share.

Cheers,
Brian


as soon as that stage 1 comes out... im ready to pick it up!!!

Whats up vtuner... its been a while.

JOHN

dizwhoadayjohn
8th February 2009, 12:39 PM
Quick question. So an 06 and 07 Aero tuned by VTuner would have the same power results as the 08 and 09 tuned by VTuner as well?

VTuner
8th February 2009, 03:45 PM
Yes. All 2.8T Aeros will achieve 320hp & 400lb-ft at the crank. Wheel horsepower and torque will vary between automatic and manual transmissions as well as FWD or XWD. The most parasitic losses are with automatics and XWD, where FWD manuals will put the most power to the wheels and have a power to weight advantage over the XWDs. Getting the power to the pavement is another problem in itself, and XWD does a much better job.

Cheers,
VTuner

Quick question. So an 06 and 07 Aero tuned by VTuner would have the same power results as the 08 and 09 tuned by VTuner as well?

vteccured
8th February 2009, 10:40 PM
Great to hear from you John! How is the Audi project coming along and have you been able to pry your wife away from the Aero yet?!

With the weather starting to warm up (43F hear in Sheldon VT today) and the roads becoming usable again I am beginning to work on the next stage. I will let you know when I have some information to share.

Cheers,
Brian

Brian,

The audi is pretty much done... for now that is! lol
the wife is still driving it, and really enjoys... but will soon have to let it go since she now has a new truck, and the saab becomes all mine! lol

Yeah... thats pretty much it.
as soon as you have anything available... let me know... customer for life!

JOHN

WSD
9th February 2009, 12:02 PM
Vtuner on a different subject, do you have any plans on attending the SAAB Convention in Copper Mountain, Colorado this August? This might be a good marketing opportunity for you?

lmpreza
9th February 2009, 12:55 PM
The 2.8Ts use a TD04HLB-15TK3 turbo to be precise, which flows more than the turbos under discussion. I have already shown Dynojet data with baseline references to demonstrate that we can produce over 330 hp with this turbo in this motor with stock components. I have hit 480 lb-ft of torque as well under limited testing.

The peak power capability of any turbo also depends on the volumetric efficiency of the motor in addition to the different compressors, turbines, housings, single scroll vs twin scroll variables, ball bearings, etc.

With a few reasonable upgrades we should be able to hit 360-400hp for the next stage, provided that there is enough interest in Stage 0. I am working on Stage 1 currently.

Cheers
VTuner

If you need a downpipe, you know who to talk to!
ha.

Speaking of which, Now that the snow is melting I think I can dig the car out of the garage! woo!

NinjaZX6R
9th February 2009, 07:20 PM
Guys,

Thanks so much for the info. That is very useful stuff in regards to what the turbo is capable of. I think it is time to order. Brian, you'll be hearing from me.

I guess I will wait to order, however, because my stupid Aero is in the shop! "Stability Control Failure," but at least it's under warranty. Argh! Only has 20k miles on it!

Maybe this is a calling that it's just begging to be upgraded? lol

One last question...and there is probably another thread on it for the 2.0t, but does a whole new cold air intake unit make any more sense than a K&N drop in other than noise? I'd love to hear the turbo a little more, but $50 vs. $300 means I'd be getting my vtuner software sooner. Anyone care to comment on that hear? I know Brian used the K&N drop-in, so maybe it's best to stick with what this software has been tuned for.

Thanks again guys. Seriously, this wealth of knowledge has me up late at night! :)

-Collin-

Supergilson
9th February 2009, 07:34 PM
heh... Stability Control Failure... where have I seen that before?

VTuner
9th February 2009, 07:36 PM
Vtuner on a different subject, do you have any plans on attending the SAAB Convention in Copper Mountain, Colorado this August? This might be a good marketing opportunity for you?

Hi Scott,

Thanks for the suggestion; I do not think I will be traveling that far to promote yet. I tried to drum up interest for a group tuning session for SOC08 last year and I did not get enough responses to make the trip worth while. Maybe in a few years when more 2.8Ts are off warranty the market will pick up.

Cheers,
Brian

Gomo187
9th February 2009, 07:40 PM
Guys,

Thanks so much for the info. That is very useful stuff in regards to what the turbo is capable of. I think it is time to order. Brian, you'll be hearing from me.

I guess I will wait to order, however, because my stupid Aero is in the shop! "Stability Control Failure," but at least it's under warranty. Argh! Only has 20k miles on it!

Maybe this is a calling that it's just begging to be upgraded? lol

One last question...and there is probably another thread on it for the 2.0t, but does a whole new cold air intake unit make any more sense than a K&N drop in other than noise? I'd love to hear the turbo a little more, but $50 vs. $300 means I'd be getting my vtuner software sooner. Anyone care to comment on that hear? I know Brian used the K&N drop-in, so maybe it's best to stick with what this software has been tuned for.

Thanks again guys. Seriously, this wealth of knowledge has me up late at night! :)

-Collin-
Its entirely up to you on that one, but from my experience the intake does nothing, so it a sound preference. One that i really enjoy hearing. While I dont have VTuners tune, I do have BSR, I imagine Vtuners tune will make the sound even more enjoyable the way the BSR did. The increased boost increased the sound from the BPV and the turbo on spool up.

BTW the optiflow is only a little over $200 and a DIY can be made for like $50, and will have similar results if done correctly.

Even though I dont have Vtuners kit, I do enjoy seeing whats going on as he is the only person I know with interest in the V6 motor. So I do like to keep up with whats happening, I could convert one day.

VTuner
9th February 2009, 08:07 PM
Send me a datalog if you have a chance. I would like to see how much more the engine is breathing with your new downpipe. Just use the new configuration file I attached, it has everything I am looking for in the primary table. Just rename the file extension to Impreza config1.cfg to allow it to work with the scanner utility.

Cheers,
Brian

If you need a downpipe, you know who to talk to!
ha.

Speaking of which, Now that the snow is melting I think I can dig the car out of the garage! woo!

NinjaZX6R
9th February 2009, 08:23 PM
Its entirely up to you on that one, but from my experience the intake does nothing, so it a sound preference. One that i really enjoy hearing. While I dont have VTuners tune, I do have BSR, I imagine Vtuners tune will make the sound even more enjoyable the way the BSR did. The increased boost increased the sound from the BPV and the turbo on spool up.

BTW the optiflow is only a little over $200 and a DIY can be made for like $50, and will have similar results if done correctly.

Even though I dont have Vtuners kit, I do enjoy seeing whats going on as he is the only person I know with interest in the V6 motor. So I do like to keep up with whats happening, I could convert one day.

Thanks Gomo!

Do you know if the Optiflow intake will void the warranty? I know the drop in K&N doesn't.

-Collin-

NinjaZX6R
9th February 2009, 11:24 PM
Yes. All 2.8T Aeros will achieve 320hp & 400lb-ft at the crank. Wheel horsepower and torque will vary between automatic and manual transmissions as well as FWD or XWD. The most parasitic losses are with automatics and XWD, where FWD manuals will put the most power to the wheels and have a power to weight advantage over the XWDs. Getting the power to the pavement is another problem in itself, and XWD does a much better job.

Cheers,
VTuner

Brian...

I have the 6spd and FWD and you say that will have the least amount of drivetrain loss. I assume you have the same setup, so any idea what I would see at the wheel(s) with Stage 0? I would assume it would be identical to yours.

Maybe I'm a total newbie here, but how are you measuring power at the crank? If you could give a figure at the wheel and what type of dyno was used, I'd be really appreciative. Thanks so much,

-Collin-

VTuner
10th February 2009, 06:59 AM
I expect you to see approximately 350 lb-ft max at the wheels. I used a Dynojet to measure wheel power and torque and 15% losses to estimate power at the crank. I emailed you the dyno data since the file is too large to post here. Your results should be the same as mine within margins of error from dyno to dyno. By measuring a baseline stock run on any other dyno you can expect to see similar increases over the stock tune.

Cheers,
Brian

Brian...

I have the 6spd and FWD and you say that will have the least amount of drivetrain loss. I assume you have the same setup, so any idea what I would see at the wheel(s) with Stage 0? I would assume it would be identical to yours.

Maybe I'm a total newbie here, but how are you measuring power at the crank? If you could give a figure at the wheel and what type of dyno was used, I'd be really appreciative. Thanks so much,

-Collin-

stripedrex
10th February 2009, 12:14 PM
To keep it simple Collin "Crank" HP is power driven from directly from the motor. "Wheel" HP is power driven on the wheels which will be lower than crank hp because you lose power in the drivetrain (gearbox, shafts, axles, etc).

That should help =).

stripedrex
10th February 2009, 02:15 PM
Hey Brian I took some time to look at the Dashhawk, looks like a great OBDII device. Does it have the capacity to read the 9-3 wideband 02 sensor too? I noticed it has an input for an external device (I'm wondering if I can use this on my subaru and 02 device I installed on that). Also where do you mount it?

It's awesome that it datalogs.

I like the MSD Dashhawk for this purpose, it is much more convenient than a laptop for daily use. During development I would always have it up showing at least Wideband AFR, MAF,Absolute Load, Ignition Advance, and Cat Temp for easy viewing. I actually had about 25 major parameters that I could quickly cycle through in pre-configured windows. I think the Dashhawk is down to about $300 now.

Gomo187
10th February 2009, 04:21 PM
Thanks Gomo!

Do you know if the Optiflow intake will void the warranty? I know the drop in K&N doesn't.

-Collin-

That all depends on how you look at it. A warranty is only voided on damage caused by a non oem part, to a specific warranteed item. What I am trying to say is, if you install the BSR optiflow, and your MAF gets ruined or something, the dealership will likely blame the malfunction on the BSR and not warranty the MAF. However, if you have the optiflow and your axle gets broken, they have to warranty the axle, or prove the intake caused the problem....

So YES it will void the warranty, BUT the dealership must prove whatever is broken is caused by the modifed part.

I am over 1.5 years with my BSR intake and havent had a single problem, and it has been to 2 different dealerships during that time, and they have not given me greif about it. Genuinesaab sells it for $210 + shipping, not a bad price....

lmpreza
10th February 2009, 08:43 PM
Two logs here, rename to .hpl,

One is the standard 1.1bar config you gave me, the other is with the regular stage0 cam timing applied.

Tell me what you think

VTuner
10th February 2009, 09:39 PM
From 5000 -6250 the cam timing made a small increase in mass air flow, but not enough that you would notice it by the seat of your pants. Just a crude estimate, but I would say that you are making an additional 10 - 15 hp with the downpipe mod from 5250 - 6500 rpm based on the increased airflow (233 g/sec) to the top end that I can see. Not bad!

Brian

Two logs here, rename to .hpl,

One is the standard 1.1bar config you gave me, the other is with the regular stage0 cam timing applied.

Tell me what you think

lmpreza
11th February 2009, 12:10 AM
From 5000 -6250 the cam timing made a small increase in mass air flow, but not enough that you would notice it by the seat of your pants. Just a crude estimate, but I would say that you are making an additional 10 - 15 hp with the downpipe mod from 5250 - 6500 rpm based on the increased airflow (233 g/sec) to the top end that I can see. Not bad!

Brian

Now if we could only get boost set to hold up higher we'd be making a lot more hp past 4k!

VTuner
11th February 2009, 07:40 AM
You mean like this?:cheesy:

200%load = 1 bar boost at 4500 rpm. I can hold it to higher rpm, but I backed off the throttle at 4500.

Now if we could only get boost set to hold up higher we'd be making a lot more hp past 4k!

VTuner
11th February 2009, 07:48 AM
Yes, it will read wideband AFR as well as work with most aftermarket wideband O2 sensors via an auxiliary input. There was also a EGT probe that was available for a short time, but it has been out of stock. MSD is not continuing the Dashhawk, but it is a great device if you can still find one. There are several other brands out there like the Dashdaq, but I am not sure how well they work with the 9-3.

Hey Brian I took some time to look at the Dashhawk, looks like a great OBDII device. Does it have the capacity to read the 9-3 wideband 02 sensor too? I noticed it has an input for an external device (I'm wondering if I can use this on my subaru and 02 device I installed on that). Also where do you mount it?

It's awesome that it datalogs.

lmpreza
11th February 2009, 10:24 AM
You mean like this?:cheesy:

200%load = 1 bar boost at 4500 rpm. I can hold it to higher rpm, but I backed off the throttle at 4500.


I'm really curious how you got past that desired boost dc now!

I wouldnt have backed off the throttle! Well, unless KR was going bat****.

I'd be willing to test it all the way ;)

I gotta get out there and measure that damn intercooler so I can order something beefy to stick in the front end of that car...

blazinskunk
11th February 2009, 12:08 PM
BSR has created what they consider a "safe" tune. Meaning that by tuning your car with their software they believe you are not risking damaging your engine or transmission components.

Riiiiight.....except for that little issue known as clutch slip.... :roll:

lmpreza
11th February 2009, 01:23 PM
Brian, would you be able to elaborate on the "Optimum Torque" table as well as the "Max Air Load Torque" table, I assume these tables all relate to the "Desired Air Load" table in some fashion...?

VTuner
11th February 2009, 07:43 PM
To the best of my current knowledge I will explain what these tables do:

The Optimum torque table under "Engine Torque Model" is used only to calibrate the turbo needle on your dash. The table lists %(load) vs rpm and by entering 100 in any cell you are indicating that the boost needle should be at 100% deflection (think buried in the red zone) for that load and rpm. You could theoretically make the needle work backwards if you wanted to (good April fools joke :cheesy: )

The Max Air Load Torque table can be thought of as a multiplier that works with the Airflow "Torque Based" Desired Air Load table. This table is very sensitive (only change the cells +/-1 at a time if you are experimenting). The Desired Air Load table has several functions. This table will effect the Electronic Throttle Control and can be used to tailor the throttle response. Once you have the throttle response mapped the way you like it, you can use the Max Air Load Torque table to increase or decrease absolute power at each rpm while keeping the same throttle response behavior.

Hope this makes sense, let me know if you have more questions.

Brian




Brian, would you be able to elaborate on the "Optimum Torque" table as well as the "Max Air Load Torque" table, I assume these tables all relate to the "Desired Air Load" table in some fashion...?

lmpreza
12th February 2009, 01:37 AM
To the best of my current knowledge I will explain what these tables do:

The Optimum torque table under "Engine Torque Model" is used only to calibrate the turbo needle on your dash. The table lists %(load) vs rpm and by entering 100 in any cell you are indicating that the boost needle should be at 100% deflection (think buried in the red zone) for that load and rpm. You could theoretically make the needle work backwards if you wanted to (good April fools joke :cheesy: )

The Max Air Load Torque table can be thought of as a multiplier that works with the Airflow "Torque Based" Desired Air Load table. This table is very sensitive (only change the cells +/-1 at a time if you are experimenting). The Desired Air Load table has several functions. This table will effect the Electronic Throttle Control and can be used to tailor the throttle response. Once you have the throttle response mapped the way you like it, you can use the Max Air Load Torque table to increase or decrease absolute power at each rpm while keeping the same throttle response behavior.

Hope this makes sense, let me know if you have more questions.

Brian

Well, lets see then, the % axis on the desired air load table would relate to throttle positon? when I click on this it calls itself "torque axis"

If this is the case, why does it taper back air load towards upper RPMs whereas midrange appears maxed.. Would it not make sense to scale airflow upwards towards te upper range to, I guess the best way to put it, promote top-end power? Maybe I don't quite grasp the concept of this table though.


This is a good discussion though, promotes tuning knowledge througout the community! Good stuff good stuff.

I've been comparing these tables and it's rather confusing I suppose. I noticed that the original file tends to scale back desired air load from low rpms being the peak to the a gradual decrease all the way to redline. On the one you produced for me, there appears to be a center bias. This appears to be similar on your regular stage0 tune.

What trips me up the most is when you look at the max air load torque table, the one you produced for my X has some dips and spikes, whereas the one for your standard stage0 has a more, hill like curve rather than a rocky mountain.

Perhaps if you could elaborate on your theory a bit there my my understanding of this should increase a bit! It would seem to me that you would want max desired air torque to be a smooth curve...

I dunno tho! supposed to get cold and snow again for the rest of the week so the saaby gets to sleep and I dont get to play much. Im gonna try and order an intercooler sometime this week, and then I need to get the coils checked, getting an occasional misfire at idle... blah.

VTuner
12th February 2009, 06:39 AM
No, your Max Air Load torque tables should be fairly smooth. Let me take a look at your file and see what is wrong with it.

The Max Air Load table and desired air load tables will work in conjunction, but we have found that you can keep increasing the Max Air Load table but will not see any increase in loads after a certain point, so increasing the tables at the higher rpms is the right idea, it just won't have any effect currently. This is where the boost control stuff kicks in and we probably are missing some tables that are restricting the current max air loads.

I will email you any updates to your tables if necessary to smooth them out.

Cheers,
Brian

Well, lets see then, the % axis on the desired air load table would relate to throttle positon? when I click on this it calls itself "torque axis"

If this is the case, why does it taper back air load towards upper RPMs whereas midrange appears maxed.. Would it not make sense to scale airflow upwards towards te upper range to, I guess the best way to put it, promote top-end power? Maybe I don't quite grasp the concept of this table though.


This is a good discussion though, promotes tuning knowledge througout the community! Good stuff good stuff.

I've been comparing these tables and it's rather confusing I suppose. I noticed that the original file tends to scale back desired air load from low rpms being the peak to the a gradual decrease all the way to redline. On the one you produced for me, there appears to be a center bias. This appears to be similar on your regular stage0 tune.

What trips me up the most is when you look at the max air load torque table, the one you produced for my X has some dips and spikes, whereas the one for your standard stage0 has a more, hill like curve rather than a rocky mountain.

Perhaps if you could elaborate on your theory a bit there my my understanding of this should increase a bit! It would seem to me that you would want max desired air torque to be a smooth curve...

I dunno tho! supposed to get cold and snow again for the rest of the week so the saaby gets to sleep and I dont get to play much. Im gonna try and order an intercooler sometime this week, and then I need to get the coils checked, getting an occasional misfire at idle... blah.

VTuner
12th February 2009, 07:50 AM
Well, lets see then, the % axis on the desired air load table would relate to throttle positon? when I click on this it calls itself "torque axis"

Indirectly yes. The electronic throttle control will use this table to try and regulate the air load to match the desired air load (boost will also adjust based on this table though). There are other inputs to the final value used by the ETC however. All of the calculations are converted into torque requests based on inputs from independent systems that make up the ME9 system. It is a bit much to cover, maybe I will write a user guide with more details.

If this is the case, why does it taper back air load towards upper RPMs whereas midrange appears maxed.. Would it not make sense to scale airflow upwards towards te upper range to, I guess the best way to put it, promote top-end power? Maybe I don't quite grasp the concept of this table though.

Couple of reasons for this, maybe a bit esoteric. First, I am looking for a proverbial "hill" that you will feel in the torque curve. A flat torque curve is not very exciting to drive in my opinion. I like to feel a gradual increase to a maximum torque in the mid-range which encourages you to shift and be more engaged.

The taper toward the top of the range is more to provide a soft landing as you approach the rev limiter. You can obviously remove this entirely and just max everything out, but for other reasons I mentioned earlier, you will find that no matter how much you increase the tables you will hit a limit of about 230 g/sec mass air flow, which is not due to hardware limits.

To understand what is happening in more detail, use the scanner to log data and pay particular attention to the desired boost in your logs. The values do not make sense, I know (400 kpa would be like 60psi!). Just divide the value by 2 and subtract barometric pressure (it just works this way) to obtain actual boost requested. You will see that the desired boost will drop off at higher rpm down to around 300 kpa at 5700 rpm (50 kpa actual boost is about 7 psi), even if you max out the tables.

Cheers,
Brian

NinjaZX6R
12th February 2009, 06:15 PM
Guys,

Do you know if the 6spd manual limits torque in first and second gear? Is it just my imagination that third gear pulls better than second?

-Collin-

twarner776
12th February 2009, 06:46 PM
no limit that i know of but yes 3rd gear in our cars is awesome. always has been.

Vector-SS
12th February 2009, 06:59 PM
Guys,

Do you know if the 6spd manual limits torque in first and second gear? Is it just my imagination that third gear pulls better than second?

-Collin-

First and second is limited on the 2.0T - so it might be the same with the V6.

EDIT: or wait,was that boost?:confused:

VTuner
12th February 2009, 07:21 PM
First gear is torque limited, as is reverse. No limits on 2nd-6th.


Guys,

Do you know if the 6spd manual limits torque in first and second gear? Is it just my imagination that third gear pulls better than second?

-Collin-

NinjaZX6R
12th February 2009, 09:08 PM
First gear is torque limited, as is reverse. No limits on 2nd-6th.

Torque limits in reverse? That's it; I'm selling the car.

Actually, I just got it back today. Turns out an ABS hydraulic pump went out...ouch. Thank goodness for warranty. Man this thing feels like a rocket ship after the 2008 Toyota Yaris they gave me to drive! I think the Yaris was limited to 40 foot pounds of torque in all four gears. :)

-Collin-

Energy_AZ
20th February 2009, 01:20 PM
Hey guys - please keep us updated on how your cars are performing with the Vtune.

I am very curious about it myself - but like others would like to see positive history (aka - no problems) before taking the plunge myself.

Thanks to all you brave guinea pigs - 320hp/400ft is incredible and if that is sustainable without adverse effect on the car for lengthy period of time - thats music to any saab fan's ears!

REOSPDWGN
20th February 2009, 04:12 PM
I'm curious about the speed limiter in my 06, does this go away with the vtune?

How about flashing back to stock settings for dealership visits, any adverse effects/evidence left?

Supergilson
21st February 2009, 08:44 PM
I cannot stand to drive my car without this tune anymore. I flashed it back to stock while I waited for a new boost control valve to come in. (Just to be safe.) Stock seemed so stinking slow, it felt like there was something wrong with it.

I highly recommend this product. Not just for the quality of the tune, but also for the support. Brian helped me track down a faulty boost control valve. There wasn't anything wrong with the tune, but he still helped me fix my car's problem.

I realize that many people are worried that this will hurt the long term reliability of the car, and I really can't speak to that. I can say I'm not very worried. You can beat the car with or without the tune.

This tune is a bargain.

Cosmicflash
21st February 2009, 09:46 PM
I cannot stand to drive my car without this tune anymore. I flashed it back to stock while I waited for a new boost control valve to come in. (Just to be safe.) Stock seemed so stinking slow, it felt like there was something wrong with it.

I highly recommend this product. Not just for the quality of the tune, but also for the support. Brian helped me track down a faulty boost control valve. There wasn't anything wrong with the tune, but he still helped me fix my car's problem.

I realize that many people are worried that this will hurt the long term reliability of the car, and I really can't speak to that. I can say I'm not very worried. You can beat the car with or without the tune.

This tune is a bargain.

You had a bad boost control valve as well huh?

Perhaps it might be fine for stock but when pushed it seems to stick.
I, too, with my BSR tune went back to stock and it seemed ok. But with the tune the overboost code was thrown.

This part is obviously a weak point and I know from previous turbo tuned cars this can be an issue. VW/Audi/Porche have an upgraded one that seemed to work on most tunes.
Perhaps the aftermarket will come up with a better one for our Saab V6 turbos.
OTOH, mine did last 50,000 miles so that is pretty darn good:cool:

Supergilson
21st February 2009, 09:52 PM
I am not an expert, but I think Saab changed the part. I ordered the new valve, but they didn't send the right thing... it turns out the part number had been changed. It took me a month to get it because they claimed that there were none in this country yet! When I got it, it did indeed have a different number on it. (Although I really don't know that that means!)


The new item cost twice as much, so maybe it's new and improved!

VTuner
24th February 2009, 08:01 PM
I have received numerous requests to remove the speed limiter as part of Stage 0 and I am happy to report that the guys at HP Tuners are beginning to look at adding the code for our Saabs to include this ability.

http://www.hptuners.com/forum/showthread.php?p=160694&posted=1#post160694

Cheers,
VTuner

saab19
24th February 2009, 08:25 PM
I am not an expert, but I think Saab changed the part. I ordered the new valve, but they didn't send the right thing... it turns out the part number had been changed. It took me a month to get it because they claimed that there were none in this country yet! When I got it, it did indeed have a different number on it. (Although I really don't know that that means!)


The new item cost twice as much, so maybe it's new and improved!


I think more likely it's the economy ;)

(unfortunately)

NinjaZX6R
24th February 2009, 09:26 PM
I have received numerous requests to remove the speed limiter as part of Stage 0 and I am happy to report that the guys at HP Tuners are beginning to look at adding the code for our Saabs to include this ability.

http://www.hptuners.com/forum/showthread.php?p=160694&posted=1#post160694

Cheers,
VTuner

Forgive my ignorance here, but will our cars really do much over 155mph? I mean, with the stock gearing and everything I would think it would max out around there anyway.

That is the stock limiter in the US, right? 155mph? I hit 130mph the other day in mine and that was plenty for me. Would have been nice to get there a little faster though :lol: Just waiting for my tax return and I will be a vtuner stage 0 owner as well.

-Collin-

VTuner
24th February 2009, 09:45 PM
Based on gearing, the 6spd manual with 235/45 17 inch tires would hit 190 mph (306 km/hr) at redline in 6th gear. I have hit 170 mph with tweeked version of BSR Stage 1 that I coaxed a bit more power out of and with the speed limiter set at 167mph. The Speed limiter shuts you down as you pass 167, but there is definitely a lot more potential there and I would not be suprised if you could hit close to 180mph.


Forgive my ignorance here, but will our cars really do much over 155mph? I mean, with the stock gearing and everything I would think it would max out around there anyway.

That is the stock limiter in the US, right? 155mph? I hit 130mph the other day in mine and that was plenty for me. Would have been nice to get there a little faster though :lol: Just waiting for my tax return and I will be a vtuner stage 0 owner as well.

-Collin-

Cosmicflash
25th February 2009, 02:44 AM
Forgive my ignorance here, but will our cars really do much over 155mph? I mean, with the stock gearing and everything I would think it would max out around there anyway.

That is the stock limiter in the US, right? 155mph? I hit 130mph the other day in mine and that was plenty for me. Would have been nice to get there a little faster though :lol: Just waiting for my tax return and I will be a vtuner stage 0 owner as well.

-Collin-

I think some guy in Germany got the BSR tune a while ago and did 163 mph:o
I know first hand the stock speed limiter is 130 mph (about 134 on the speedo as it reads fast and Saab knows it).
After my BSR tune and speed limiter removed I got it up to about 145 mph on the speedo and it was still going.

155 mph plus shouldn't be a problem.

REOSPDWGN
25th February 2009, 10:44 AM
I was under the impression that the limiter was set at 130 on the 06, but 155 on the 07 and up....

NinjaZX6R
25th February 2009, 11:05 AM
130mph on the '06? Bummer! I swear I was a few mph over that, but like you guys said the speedo reads a tad fast. I'll have to confirm 134mph on my way to work today. Kidding, living in CA I rarely get to go over 10mph. :(

This is really exciting stuff. Maybe when I order in a week or two Brian will have the limiter removed! :)

Cheers Guys,

-Collin-

lmpreza
25th February 2009, 11:20 AM
130mph on the '06? Bummer! I swear I was a few mph over that, but like you guys said the speedo reads a tad fast. I'll have to confirm 134mph on my way to work today. Kidding, living in CA I rarely get to go over 10mph. :(

This is really exciting stuff. Maybe when I order in a week or two Brian will have the limiter removed! :)

Cheers Guys,

-Collin-

I wish the HP tuners guys were that fast...

Unfortunately not.

VTuner
25th February 2009, 01:20 PM
I wish the HP tuners guys were that fast...

Unfortunately not.

I am actively discussing this with Bill at HP Tuners. Based on what I know right know, I think there is a decent chance we could see this in the next beta, so possibly in a couple of months. I know they will not confirm this, but wait and see ;)

VTuner

Cosmicflash
26th February 2009, 12:51 AM
I was under the impression that the limiter was set at 130 on the 06, but 155 on the 07 and up....

I wouldn't think so as the tires are only V rated which is up to 149 mph (unless the 07' n up have Z or W rated tires).

VTuner
26th February 2009, 08:00 AM
The 2007 Saab Aero 2.8T with the 6 spd manual transmission has a maximum velocity of 250 km/hr (155 mph). The 6 spd auto variant has a top speed of 245 km/hr (152 mph). The OEM tire speed ratings for winter/all season/summer are Q (99 mph) / V (149mph) / W (168mph), so the speed rating on your tires depends on which rubber your Saab came with.

This information is straight out of the Saab Press Kit for 2007.

Cheers,
VTuner


I wouldn't think so as the tires are only V rated which is up to 149 mph (unless the 07' n up have Z or W rated tires).

lmpreza
26th February 2009, 11:01 AM
The 2007 Saab Aero 2.8T with the 6 spd manual transmission has a maximum velocity of 250 km/hr (155 mph). The 6 spd auto variant has a top speed of 245 km/hr (152 mph). The OEM tire speed ratings for winter/all season/summer are Q (99 mph) / V (149mph) / W (168mph), so the speed rating on your tires depends on which rubber your Saab came with.

This information is straight out of the Saab Press Kit for 2007.

Cheers,
VTuner

Need Moar boost-holding, probably will see higher peak #'s than 320 if it would stay 14psi or so upwards of 4k :(

Seriously I wish they would get on that... speed limiter speed sclimiter. Not gonna be tapping the limiter every day, peak boost holding in all gears though, that's alot more useful... ;oops:

NinjaZX6R
26th February 2009, 01:28 PM
Need Moar boost-holding, probably will see higher peak #'s than 320 if it would stay 14psi or so upwards of 4k :(

Seriously I wish they would get on that... speed limiter speed sclimiter. Not gonna be tapping the limiter every day, peak boost holding in all gears though, that's alot more useful... ;oops:

Another dumb question, but I'm allowed one per day, right?

Are you running the Stage 0 tune Impreza?

-Collin-

VTuner
26th February 2009, 01:28 PM
Need Moar boost-holding, probably will see higher peak #'s than 320 if it would stay 14psi or so upwards of 4k :(

Seriously I wish they would get on that... speed limiter speed sclimiter. Not gonna be tapping the limiter every day, peak boost holding in all gears though, that's alot more useful... ;oops:

Intersting enough, solving the speed limiter issue may help to solve the boost control tables. The speed limit is primarily controlled by reducing boost requested, then throttle. When they evaluate the code they might discover where the boost table controls are hiding. ;)

lmpreza
26th February 2009, 01:48 PM
Another dumb question, but I'm allowed one per day, right?

Are you running the Stage 0 tune Impreza?

-Collin-

Sort of, the boost is dialed up a tinge for me :)

Intersting enough, solving the speed limiter issue may help to solve the boost control tables. The speed limit is primarily controlled by reducing boost requested, then throttle. When they evaluate the code they might discover where the boost table controls are hiding. ;)

Never hurts to dream I guess!

i'd wager the speed limiter is more of just a fuel cut though, something gradual probably.

I wonder if they'd ever be able to program secondary rev-limiter in there, for clutch-in, a ignition cut rev limiter...

i.e.: Launch control... bap bap bap bap pop bap pop pop crack crack!

I miss the launch control on my subie... if I shifted like right at the launch control limiter it would spit big fireballs, THUMP!

NinjaZX6R
26th February 2009, 02:10 PM
Sort of, the boost is dialed up a tinge for me :)

Interesting. I was trying to talk Brian into something less aggressive like a stage -.5 :lol:




i.e.: Launch control... bap bap bap bap pop bap pop pop crack crack!



You might want to have that looked at by a doctor buddy. :) just kidding

-Collin-

VTuner
26th February 2009, 07:35 PM
i'd wager the speed limiter is more of just a fuel cut though, something gradual probably.


I just finished logging the behavior of the rev limiter in detail at HP Tuners request. It is definitely not cutting fuel, it cuts boost to zero first, then closes the throttle. I provided them with detailed logs mapping fuel, cams, ignition, boost, throttle (actually about 40 parameters) as I hit the limiter several times.

Cheers

Krieg
27th February 2009, 11:23 AM
Regarding top speed...

...One of the Car and Driver reviews of the Turbo X said that they overheated the thing at 145 mph!

Does that sound strange to any of you? Overheating at high speeds?

lmpreza
27th February 2009, 12:21 PM
Regarding top speed...

...One of the Car and Driver reviews of the Turbo X said that they overheated the thing at 145 mph!

Does that sound strange to any of you? Overheating at high speeds?


Yeah, I don't believe that... there was probably something wrong.

I mean, the V6's do put out a lot of heat, but to say it was overheating? Nah.

NinjaZX6R
27th February 2009, 12:41 PM
I don't believe the overheating either. At 134mph mine was running cooler than when sitting in traffic.

Any chance we can talk any of you brave souls into some updated videos? I've watched Brian's a few thousand times and I want to see some more! Close up on the gauges on acceleration or anything? Would be greatly greatly appreciated.

-Collin-

Helmet
27th February 2009, 03:16 PM
Hey everyone, just to introduce myself, I'm Marty, I've been a long time lurker on these boards. Three weeks ago I picked up a 2006 Aero, 6MT, Black/Parchment with 4,934 miles on it - CPO. It's my third Saab (84 900 and 00 93 SE)


Any chance we can talk any of you brave souls into some updated videos? I've watched Brian's a few thousand times and I want to see some more! Close up on the gauges on acceleration or anything? Would be greatly greatly appreciated.

-Collin-

I got the software from Brian not too long ago and just got a new digi cam so let me see if I can take a vid this weekend.

FWIW I let my long time Saab mechanic that works at the dealership drive it the other day when the weather was nice and he :cheesy: and said "There's NO WAY I could drive something this fast every day." and "I can NOT believe the torque this has" - and this from a guy that used to ice race a very built older 900. He was very impressed with it, those are only 2 of the many funny quotes out of him during our little "test drive".
Before I bought the tune I asked him about his thoughts on how the engine and drivetrain would handle the kind of power and he literally laughed at me and said "Absolutely NO problem at all, they are very beefy - I wouldnt worry about it whatsoever". Considering he's been working on Saab's exclusively for far longer than the 15 years I've known him and is very professional, I personally consider him an extremely reliable advisor. I realize that doesn't really count for much for those of you out there with doubts, but it sure made my decision to pull the trigger a lot easier.

So yeah - great forum y'all have here, lots of useful info and nice people. Glad to be a part and finally come out of my lurking closet. :lol:

Vector-SS
27th February 2009, 04:10 PM
Congrats on your new purchase. That's one hell of a low mileage? I need something like that.

Those are definitely some reassuring words from the mechanic as this seems the route I will be taking once I hopefully purchase my 06. :cool:

One thing that I'm confused with though is I remember the torque limit that the gearbox could handle was less than the torque this tune is currently pushing.

Vtuner, any info on that?


Hey everyone, just to introduce myself, I'm Marty, I've been a long time lurker on these boards. Three weeks ago I picked up a 2006 Aero, 6MT, Black/Parchment with 4,934 miles on it - CPO. It's my third Saab (84 900 and 00 93 SE)



I got the software from Brian not too long ago and just got a new digi cam so let me see if I can take a vid this weekend.

FWIW I let my long time Saab mechanic that works at the dealership drive it the other day when the weather was nice and he :cheesy: and said "There's NO WAY I could drive something this fast every day." and "I can NOT believe the torque this has" - and this from a guy that used to ice race a very built older 900. He was very impressed with it, those are only 2 of the many funny quotes out of him during our little "test drive".
Before I bought the tune I asked him about his thoughts on how the engine and drivetrain would handle the kind of power and he literally laughed at me and said "Absolutely NO problem at all, they are very beefy - I wouldnt worry about it whatsoever". Considering he's been working on Saab's exclusively for far longer than the 15 years I've known him and is very professional, I personally consider him an extremely reliable advisor. I realize that doesn't really count for much for those of you out there with doubts, but it sure made my decision to pull the trigger a lot easier.

So yeah - great forum y'all have here, lots of useful info and nice people. Glad to be a part and finally come out of my lurking closet. :lol:

Helmet
27th February 2009, 04:38 PM
Congrats on your new purchase. That's one hell of a low mileage?

Thanks! I'm really happy with it. Yeah, I was pretty shocked to find one with that low of mileage. It was a corporate lease vehicle from Miami....I'm guessing they must not have lived too far from work, huh? :lol:

navygz19
27th February 2009, 04:43 PM
Either that or it was a repo. and it's been sitting on a lot for a while.


Regardless, nice purchase! Post pics!

Helmet
27th February 2009, 04:54 PM
Well, that's what Carfax said at least (that it was a corporate lease). ;)

I will certainly post pics as soon as we can get a SINGLE day around here where it's nice enough that I can wash it and actually be able to take pics before it starts snowing or raining or sleeting! lol gotta love upstate NY!!

NinjaZX6R
27th February 2009, 05:06 PM
Well, that's what Carfax said at least (that it was a corporate lease). ;)

I will certainly post pics as soon as we can get a SINGLE day around here where it's nice enough that I can wash it and actually be able to take pics before it starts snowing or raining or sleeting! lol gotta love upstate NY!!

Welcome Helmet! Nice of you to join with some more praises and promising words about VTuner. I'm ordering next week for sure. Get on that video buddy, I'm dying to see some more action.

BTW, I have an '06, Black, 6MT...have 21k on it now. :)

-Collin-

Aleki
27th February 2009, 06:12 PM
will there be any support for pocket pc's? keeping a eepc for the car would be kinda neat, but i'd rather save the money :)

lmpreza
27th February 2009, 07:45 PM
will there be any support for pocket pc's? keeping a eepc for the car would be kinda neat, but i'd rather save the money :)

Eeepc is not pocketpc, it's a netbook and it uses a form of linux, one with windows would work fine. I use my dad's HP mini1000 for my reflashing/etc. The screen is a bit small to keep track of while driving tho.

Aleki
27th February 2009, 11:57 PM
Eeepc is not pocketpc, it's a netbook and it uses a form of linux, one with windows would work fine. I use my dad's HP mini1000 for my reflashing/etc. The screen is a bit small to keep track of while driving tho.
I'm aware ;)
I'm just thinking it would be a whole lot easier carrying all the tuning information on my phone since i take it everywhere anyway. but if i absolutely need a complete windows platform, ill have to look into a eepc

VTuner
28th February 2009, 10:12 AM
Welcome Marty! Glad to hear your mechanic was impressed, that really made my day. :cheesy:
I did not hear back from you after my last email, so I assumed all was well and you were out tearing up the roads!

Enjoy!
VTuner

Nice Musky by the way! 8 lbs?

Hey everyone, just to introduce myself, I'm Marty, I've been a long time lurker on these boards. Three weeks ago I picked up a 2006 Aero, 6MT, Black/Parchment with 4,934 miles on it - CPO. It's my third Saab (84 900 and 00 93 SE)



I got the software from Brian not too long ago and just got a new digi cam so let me see if I can take a vid this weekend.

FWIW I let my long time Saab mechanic that works at the dealership drive it the other day when the weather was nice and he :cheesy: and said "There's NO WAY I could drive something this fast every day." and "I can NOT believe the torque this has" - and this from a guy that used to ice race a very built older 900. He was very impressed with it, those are only 2 of the many funny quotes out of him during our little "test drive".
Before I bought the tune I asked him about his thoughts on how the engine and drivetrain would handle the kind of power and he literally laughed at me and said "Absolutely NO problem at all, they are very beefy - I wouldnt worry about it whatsoever". Considering he's been working on Saab's exclusively for far longer than the 15 years I've known him and is very professional, I personally consider him an extremely reliable advisor. I realize that doesn't really count for much for those of you out there with doubts, but it sure made my decision to pull the trigger a lot easier.

So yeah - great forum y'all have here, lots of useful info and nice people. Glad to be a part and finally come out of my lurking closet. :lol:

VTuner
28th February 2009, 10:23 AM
Not for pocket pc's, but I did pick up a netbook to evaluate as a cheap alternative for customers who do not currently own a laptop. I will let you know how it works out. The Stage 0 package can be installed from a USB key, so a CD drive is not necessary. The cheapest netbooks run linux, so I am going to evaluate if I can complete the install under linux with the netbook. I picked this one up new for $160, which is less than some pocket pc's and not a whole lot larger (7" screen).

will there be any support for pocket pc's? keeping a eepc for the car would be kinda neat, but i'd rather save the money :)

NinjaZX6R
28th February 2009, 02:37 PM
Marty...or Brian if you know...What type of intake is being used on the Stage 0? I know Brian runs the K&N drop in, but just wondering if anyone is using the Optiflow with this tune. I think that's what I'm going to go with.

-Collin-

Nxtnlne
28th February 2009, 03:41 PM
You don't judge a tune only by how long a tuner's been tuning or how far people have driven with it. You judge it by logging and monitoring engine behavior after the tune. How it handles fuel trims, knock, boost, temp, and the style of which he handles throttle response etc. Over time you do see how it behaves at different altitudes and different weather. Good ECUs adjust for that on their own along with other map settings.

I'll stress again wether it's an out of the box tune created conservatively in staged applications or a custom protune, you should be monitoring your car. I personally don't like engine management upgrades with no logging. I'm more comfortable getting Brian's tune b/c it comes with HPTuners. If we see in the logs there's problems we can fix it. You can't do that with flashing systems that don't log.

I posted a thread months back about local tunning using HPtuners and got much of the same response form people who think the handhelds are the safest way and hptuners are nothing but problems. I have lots of friends who had there vehicles (silverados SS,camaros vettes trailblazer SS naturally aspirated and forced induction) tunned using Hptuners wideband and EFI live. As long as your logging and monitoring what's going on you will be fine.. BSR is a conservative tune and a has great money making setup (stage 1,2,3).

I contacted HPtuners about the 2.0T. I hope they offer software for us soon. Considering the have it for the solstice redline and cobalt already!

I cant wait for a tune on the dyno costing around 300 bucks!

lmpreza
28th February 2009, 03:53 PM
I posted a thread months back about local tunning using HPtuners and got much of the same response form people who think the handhelds are the safest way and hptuners are nothing but problems. I have lots of friends who had there vehicles (silverados SS,camaros vettes trailblazer SS naturally aspirated and forced induction) tunned using Hptuners wideband and EFI live. As long as your logging and monitoring what's going on you will be fine.. BSR is a conservative tune and a has great money making setup (stage 1,2,3).

I contacted HPtuners about the 2.0T. I hope they offer software for us soon. Considering the have it for the solstice redline and cobalt already!

I cant wait for a tune on the dyno costing around 300 bucks!

HPTuners software works on Bosch Motronic EMS. The 2.0's use the Saab Trionic, it's a completely differant animal and they'd have to build software from the ground up.

VTuner
28th February 2009, 06:23 PM
One thing that I'm confused with though is I remember the torque limit that the gearbox could handle was less than the torque this tune is currently pushing.

Vtuner, any info on that?

Both the AF40 and F40 transmissions are rated (aka certified) to 400nm (295 lb-ft), but this is hardly what it is capable of handling. I might be the king of torque when it comes to tuning, but every tuning company is exceeding this limit, even Hirsch.

Max torques by company:

Hirsch step1 = 430nm
BSR stage 1-2 = 480 nm
BSR stage 3 = 520nm
VTuner Stage 0 = 540nm :cool:
Maptun = 460 - 480nm (stage 1 - 4)

Cheers,
VTuner

VTuner
28th February 2009, 06:30 PM
Welcome Helmet! Nice of you to join with some more praises and promising words about VTuner. I'm ordering next week for sure. Get on that video buddy, I'm dying to see some more action.

BTW, I have an '06, Black, 6MT...have 21k on it now. :)

-Collin-

Collin,

I still have my snow tires on, but here are a few vids to tide you over till spring.

(http://www.mediafire.com/?lhmlgzgkidj)0-60mph Winter Tires (http://www.mediafire.com/file/lhmlgzgkidj/0_60mph%20winter%20tires%201.wmv) (smoked them off the line)

0-60mph Winter Tires 2 (http://www.mediafire.com/file/mtghklwgyzw/0_60mph%20winter%20tires%202.wmv) (Feathered the throttle for this one)

40-90mpn 3rd gear (http://www.mediafire.com/file/mmxmiuxbydd/40_90mph%203rd.wmv)

Cheers,
VTuner

Energy_AZ
28th February 2009, 06:34 PM
VTuner,


Lets talk about Octane. I noticed on your site where you have the graph displaying the difference between your tune vs. stock that the figures were based off 93 Octane.

Here in AZ best we get is 91 Octane. What might the performance stats look like using 91 Octane? Or would it be fairly negligible?

Also curious what kind of impact your tune has in regards to fuel efficiency?

Thanks!

Cosmicflash
1st March 2009, 02:50 AM
The 2007 Saab Aero 2.8T with the 6 spd manual transmission has a maximum velocity of 250 km/hr (155 mph). The 6 spd auto variant has a top speed of 245 km/hr (152 mph). The OEM tire speed ratings for winter/all season/summer are Q (99 mph) / V (149mph) / W (168mph), so the speed rating on your tires depends on which rubber your Saab came with.

This information is straight out of the Saab Press Kit for 2007.

Cheers,
VTuner

But the US speed limiter is 130 mph. Are you referring to the Euro spec cars? If so are they putting on Z or W rated tires?

PS And how do we view your videos Vtuner?

The Saab Newbie
1st March 2009, 03:24 AM
PS And how do we view your videos Vtuner?

Just be agreeable. I viewed them, no problem. Where its says "click to start download", just click to start download.

VTuner
1st March 2009, 07:25 AM
But the US speed limiter is 130 mph. Are you referring to the Euro spec cars? If so are they putting on Z or W rated tires?

PS And how do we view your videos Vtuner?

I know the 2006 model year was limited to 130 mph, but I did not find this to be the case on the 2007 Aero. Can anyone else verify that they are limited to 130 mph on a US Spec 2007 Aero?

VTuner
1st March 2009, 07:33 AM
VTuner,


Lets talk about Octane. I noticed on your site where you have the graph displaying the difference between your tune vs. stock that the figures were based off 93 Octane.

Here in AZ best we get is 91 Octane. What might the performance stats look like using 91 Octane? Or would it be fairly negligible?

Also curious what kind of impact your tune has in regards to fuel efficiency?

Thanks!

You will see a small reduction in power with 91 octane, but it is safe to use. My tune will actually increase you MPGs IF you drive conservatively, or use the cruise control. The increase comes from the revised cam and spark tables, as well as the K&N filter if you use it.

NinjaZX6R
1st March 2009, 02:20 PM
Collin,

I still have my snow tires on, but here are a few vids to tide you over till spring.

(http://www.mediafire.com/?lhmlgzgkidj)0-60mph Winter Tires (http://www.mediafire.com/file/lhmlgzgkidj/0_60mph%20winter%20tires%201.wmv) (smoked them off the line)

0-60mph Winter Tires 2 (http://www.mediafire.com/file/mtghklwgyzw/0_60mph%20winter%20tires%202.wmv) (Feathered the throttle for this one)

40-90mpn 3rd gear (http://www.mediafire.com/file/mmxmiuxbydd/40_90mph%203rd.wmv)

Cheers,
VTuner

Brian, a million thanks to you for those vids. Hmm, your car seems faster than mine :o

So if I order now and you figure out the speed limiter thing at a later date, will it be any trouble getting me the update? 130mph suddenly seems too slow :)

-Collin-

Helmet
1st March 2009, 02:29 PM
Welcome Marty! Glad to hear your mechanic was impressed, that really made my day. :cheesy:
I did not hear back from you after my last email, so I assumed all was well and you were out tearing up the roads!

Nice Musky by the way! 8 lbs?

Well glad I could make your day. Yes, he was very impressed. My apologies for not emailing you back but I've been busy out driving around with a $hit eating grin every time I hit the gas pedal :cheesy:

Close, 7.10 lbs., got it on a topwater buzzbait.

Marty...or Brian if you know...What type of intake is being used on the Stage 0? I know Brian runs the K&N drop in, but just wondering if anyone is using the Optiflow with this tune. I think that's what I'm going to go with.

-Collin-
My car is compltely stock except for the Stage 0. No intake yet. Oh and I did take some vids, but since Tuner already posted more I'll assume that will keep you satisfied until your get yours tuned :p

My big news of the day is that while out earlier on a closed track that a friend of ours owns, my good friend and I decided to run his Nordic Tuned stage 3 Viggen against my car. It's something we have been talking about doing since I got my car.
His car is a 3 door viggen and is pretty much at Stage 4 Hardware except the Turbo (which is coming soon). My car has the VTuner Stage 0 and that's it.
The results? DEAD EVEN. :cool: I literally don't think I've seen two cars be so close accelleration wise. We did 4 runs, two from 60 - 120ish and two from 15/20 - 120ish. I seemed to do a better job at controlling wheelspin so I got a bit of a jump but we were completely neck and neck the entire time after that. He did seem to get a boost around 110 though which caught him up to my launch gain every time and passed me once. Overall though, it was really as close as you could get to being completely even. We had a blast. thought you guys would appreciate that the VTuner stage 0, at less than $800 was at least as fast as an extremely well maintained Viggen with....oh....I would say at least 3K in engine upgrades (including the cost of each stage he's paid for and then had to purchase the new ECU every time he upgraded something else). So, in my opinion, all in all, bang for the buck, VTuner rules :lol:

I know my buddy checks these forums from time to time, but I'm not sure if he's got an account, maybe he'll chime in. Either way, thought you guys would appreciate hearing about all of that. Pretty awesome way to start off a Sunday

VTuner
2nd March 2009, 07:24 AM
Brian, a million thanks to you for those vids. Hmm, your car seems faster than mine :o

So if I order now and you figure out the speed limiter thing at a later date, will it be any trouble getting me the update? 130mph suddenly seems too slow :)

-Collin-

Of course, I would consider this a free update for Stage 0 when it is available.

Cheers,
VTuner

VTuner
2nd March 2009, 07:40 AM
My big news of the day is that while out earlier on a closed track that a friend of ours owns, my good friend and I decided to run his Nordic Tuned stage 3 Viggen against my car. It's something we have been talking about doing since I got my car.
His car is a 3 door viggen and is pretty much at Stage 4 Hardware except the Turbo (which is coming soon). My car has the VTuner Stage 0 and that's it.
The results? DEAD EVEN. :cool: I literally don't think I've seen two cars be so close accelleration wise. We did 4 runs, two from 60 - 120ish and two from 15/20 - 120ish. I seemed to do a better job at controlling wheelspin so I got a bit of a jump but we were completely neck and neck the entire time after that. He did seem to get a boost around 110 though which caught him up to my launch gain every time and passed me once. Overall though, it was really as close as you could get to being completely even. We had a blast. thought you guys would appreciate that the VTuner stage 0, at less than $800 was at least as fast as an extremely well maintained Viggen with....oh....I would say at least 3K in engine upgrades (including the cost of each stage he's paid for and then had to purchase the new ECU every time he upgraded something else). So, in my opinion, all in all, bang for the buck, VTuner rules :lol:

I think I speak for most of us when I say I am green with envy; Everyone needs a friend with a private track! Wouldn't happen to be in Morristown would it? The Sports Car Club of Vermont runs on a track in Morristown NY occasionally.

The power to weight ratios of your two Saabs sounds about right. I think the 3-door viggen is about 3090 lbs vs 3250ish for the 2.8T, so about 10lbs per hp each if he is in the 300-310hp range. I will see what I can do this summer to give you the advantage for your next shoot-out;).

Cheers,
VTuner

Helmet
2nd March 2009, 09:37 AM
I think I speak for most of us when I say I am green with envy; Everyone needs a friend with a private track! Wouldn't happen to be in Morristown would it? The Sports Car Club of Vermont runs on a track in Morristown NY occasionally.
Unfortunately I was sworn to secrecy about where we did the runs :cool: But it was in New York.


The power to weight ratios of your two Saabs sounds about right. I think the 3-door viggen is about 3090 lbs vs 3250ish for the 2.8T, so about 10lbs per hp each if he is in the 300-310hp range. I will see what I can do this summer to give you the advantage for your next shoot-out;).

Cheers,
VTuner
Awesome, I can't wait!! Yeah, with his injectors and new Turbo on the way, I'm definitely going to need some more power in order to keep the playing field level with him :cheesy:

REOSPDWGN
2nd March 2009, 10:23 AM
Never mind....

Aleki
2nd March 2009, 11:26 AM
You will see a small reduction in power with 91 octane, but it is safe to use. My tune will actually increase you MPGs IF you drive conservatively, or use the cruise control. The increase comes from the revised cam and spark tables, as well as the K&N filter if you use it.
What kind of increases would you say were looking at? i know there's a difference with my friends cummins diesel truck. his puts out 500CHP and 1000FPT, all while netting him an extra 3mpg :lol:

i'll be really happy if you can get an extra 2 out of the car :)

NinjaZX6R
2nd March 2009, 08:14 PM
Well, I'm on my way to the bank, switching around some funds, and placing my order for the Stage 0. Wish me luck! After all these praises, I have to see for myself. I hope I can contribute to the solid reputation Brian has.

-Collin-

VTuner
2nd March 2009, 08:29 PM
What kind of increases would you say were looking at? i know there's a difference with my friends cummins diesel truck. his puts out 500CHP and 1000FPT, all while netting him an extra 3mpg :lol:

i'll be really happy if you can get an extra 2 out of the car :)

2 MPG is about right. I average 28 mpg on the highway using cruise control at 85 mph; I only get about 26 mpg with the stock tune at this speed.

lmpreza
2nd March 2009, 08:40 PM
2 MPG is about right. I average 28 mpg on the highway using cruise control at 85 mph; I only get about 26 mpg with the stock tune at this speed.

Hmm... I only manage about 24.5... ~73ish...

My moms auto doesnt even do that well.

NinjaZX6R
2nd March 2009, 09:54 PM
Hmm... I only manage about 24.5... ~73ish...

My moms auto doesnt even do that well.

Do you guys know how reliable that MPG gauge is in the SID? I reset mine the other day and saw 27.1mpg while on the highway, but now around the city I am at 14.9mpg! I'd hoped for a little more than 15mpg :)

-Collin-

Gomo187
2nd March 2009, 10:01 PM
Do you guys know how reliable that MPG gauge is in the SID? I reset mine the other day and saw 27.1mpg while on the highway, but now around the city I am at 14.9mpg! I'd hoped for a little more than 15mpg :)

-Collin-
I find it to be very accurate, just keep in mind that it is averaging your mpg. When you first reset it, it will give you almost real time mpgs. Once you have driven for like a week or so, then you see your actual fuel mileage. It just needs time to get a real accurate number, since how you drive changes the MPGs so much.

I hope its just from winter and leaving the car to warm up for 5 minutes every morning, but my mpg is down under 21, it was about 23 almost all last year. And got up to 28 on my road trip to Canada.

NinjaZX6R
2nd March 2009, 10:42 PM
I find it to be very accurate, just keep in mind that it is averaging your mpg. When you first reset it, it will give you almost real time mpgs. Once you have driven for like a week or so, then you see your actual fuel mileage. It just needs time to get a real accurate number, since how you drive changes the MPGs so much.

I hope its just from winter and leaving the car to warm up for 5 minutes every morning, but my mpg is down under 21, it was about 23 almost all last year. And got up to 28 on my road trip to Canada.

Got it, thanks. Unfortunately, the longer I give it the more it goes down! What does that say about my driving habits? :nono;

Just ordered the Stage 0 from Brian. I have a bottle of octane boost here to cure this crappy 91 octane California gas and a K&N that I'll drop in tomorrow morning as well. Will be very happy to report my success (hopefully).

-Collin-

Aleki
3rd March 2009, 01:23 AM
its very difficult to find the sweet spot for this car in terms of gas efficiency. from my experience, cruise control actually worsens gas milage. i'm still trying to figure out the best rpm/load depending on the terrain, as downshifting sometimes nets better milage than keeping the car on a taller gear. to be honest, i bought the v6 because i have interest in doing this mod down the line :cheesy:

ps: on my testdrive, i did about 31-33mpg highway and 24-29mpg town driving. right now i'm seeing 20, but thats because i commute from a busy city

cjhutch
3rd March 2009, 01:52 AM
Got it, thanks. Unfortunately, the longer I give it the more it goes down! What does that say about my driving habits? :nono;

Just ordered the Stage 0 from Brian. I have a bottle of octane boost here to cure this crappy 91 octane California gas and a K&N that I'll drop in tomorrow morning as well. Will be very happy to report my success (hopefully).

-Collin-

if by octane boost you are referring to the stuff you get from auto parts stores that is not going to help you at all. What you need to do is invest in a 50 gallon drum of race fuel to mix with the 91 you get in Cali. VP C10 should cover you for a while.

saab19
3rd March 2009, 01:53 AM
wow
I'd love for 33 on the hwy and even 24 around town.

NinjaZX6R
3rd March 2009, 03:13 AM
if by octane boost you are referring to the stuff you get from auto parts stores that is not going to help you at all. What you need to do is invest in a 50 gallon drum of race fuel to mix with the 91 you get in Cali. VP C10 should cover you for a while.

Really? Shelf octane boost doesn't do anything? Ouch, I feel like a newbie.

-Collin-

Aleki
3rd March 2009, 01:50 PM
wow
I'd love for 33 on the hwy and even 24 around town.

with the linear? you should have no problem at all.
I was able to get 36mpg from my 98 900 2.0t. 28mpg driving without being concious of fuel consumption (roughly 30%highway, 40% town, 30% city stop-go)

Ferms_93_2.8T
4th March 2009, 02:01 AM
I just thought of this and had to ask. I,like many of you I assume, have had SEVERAL coolant tanks put in my car. It is an abvious design flaw on the V6 motor. Are you guys running VTuner or even BSR still having this issue. My current tank has the updated switched hoses and after 20K mi. it is done. Just curious.

saab19
4th March 2009, 02:14 AM
with the linear? you should have no problem at all.
I was able to get 36mpg from my 98 900 2.0t. 28mpg driving without being concious of fuel consumption (roughly 30%highway, 40% town, 30% city stop-go)


haha no not the linear, sorry for the confusion
just wistful thinking about the days when I got decent mileage--I could get 35mpg @ 70 on the highway--just amazing

NinjaZX6R
4th March 2009, 01:25 PM
I just thought of this and had to ask. I,like many of you I assume, have had SEVERAL coolant tanks put in my car. It is an abvious design flaw on the V6 motor. Are you guys running VTuner or even BSR still having this issue. My current tank has the updated switched hoses and after 20K mi. it is done. Just curious.

Hmm...it's strange you mention that. I bought my car with 19k miles on it and after looking through the dealer service records that the seller provided me with, I see two times it was in the shop for a coolant leak. That worried me, so I was trying to find more information to no avail. It looks like one of those times, the entire cooling tank was replaced. Do you have any additional information on this? That doesn't sound like something I want to do every 10k miles :)

-Collin-

Ferms_93_2.8T
4th March 2009, 08:01 PM
Hmm...it's strange you mention that. I bought my car with 19k miles on it and after looking through the dealer service records that the seller provided me with, I see two times it was in the shop for a coolant leak. That worried me, so I was trying to find more information to no avail. It looks like one of those times, the entire cooling tank was replaced. Do you have any additional information on this? That doesn't sound like something I want to do every 10k miles :)

-Collin-

This is one of the several threads about the coolant bottle leak:

http://www.saabcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=128382&highlight=Coolant+tank+update

Since I am OOW I looked to see how much the bottle is - ~$100. I have a tech friend that said the replacement is easy, but its expensive b/c of the coolant level sensor built in.


Anyway, any other experiences with a tune and your coolant bottle?

NinjaZX6R
5th March 2009, 02:09 AM
This is one of the several threads about the coolant bottle leak:

http://www.saabcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=128382&highlight=Coolant+tank+update

Since I am OOW I looked to see how much the bottle is - ~$100. I have a tech friend that said the replacement is easy, but its expensive b/c of the coolant level sensor built in.


Anyway, any other experiences with a tune and your coolant bottle?


Thanks for that info. Ouch! Didn't realize it was so problematic. So is the fear that with tunes these cars will run hotter and go through these ridiculously poorly-made tanks faster? I wonder what causes the leak in the first place.

-Collin-

goSAAByourself
5th March 2009, 06:51 PM
Ive been trolling this thread since it started, and now that I have had my car for a few months, I may be ready to start tinkering with it. Few questions that I havent seen answered yet:


1) I noticed this tune was created in Vermont, which I think is roughly around 900ft altitude? Im from the heavenly rockies, with an altitude of 5,281. How is this tune going to be affected by this? Obviously I will see less power gains, but is there anything that will be thrown off by the lack of air that will cause more stress and wear on my components?

2) I saw mentioned earlier that someone could only get 91 octane from the pump, and saw that it would still be ok just the obvious less gains again. Most places I can get 91, but every now and then ill be forced to get 89. Is this going to cause any major problems if that incident should ever occur?

3) Since we are actually just buying the program with your tuning file included, what are the chances say I could hook up the computer/program to another make/model of car and use it for diagnostic purposes?

4) Say I got the program, but in the effort to lower the chances of the increase wear on the engine, or basically prevent me from increasing the change of being stupid and getting myself in trouble, would it be bad to keep my computer in the car, and switch between your tune and the manu. settings more often then not all depending on driving conditions. (IE, stock settings on snow/wet days, long drives ; Vtune settings on track weekends / canyon drives)

5) Has anyone had the chance to see how this tune changes your driving in poor/snowy conditions?

6) I know all of this talk has been about stage 0, but seen a few hints about stage 1. Any updates, expected/hoping for timelines? What about a slightly less beefed up tune? Should I get this, or wait for whats coming next basically...

Thanks
:D

VTuner
5th March 2009, 09:37 PM
I have not had a problem yet with my 2007, so I don't anticipate you will need to change your coolant tank more than once if the 2006 had a defective part.

Thanks for that info. Ouch! Didn't realize it was so problematic. So is the fear that with tunes these cars will run hotter and go through these ridiculously poorly-made tanks faster? I wonder what causes the leak in the first place.

-Collin-

VTuner
5th March 2009, 10:01 PM
1) High altitude is definitely a concern for performance tuning. I have some customer data from 4000 ft elevations and have not seen anything of concern yet, but the oxygen levels are down to 17.1% at 5200ft compared to 18% at 4000ft (Sea level is 21%). I have spoken with 2006+ Aero owners from Colorado that have expressed problems with the stock tuning (low power, black smoke out the tailpipe) which is a symptom of exceeding the cat over temp limit which will trigger massive amounts of fuel to be dumped in attempt to cool the engine. Based on these observations, I would be cautious about tuning your Aero at this elevation, especially if you plan to drive up into the mountains at higher altitudes.

2) You will have lower performance with 89 octane, but you will not cause any damage to the engine. The engine management system will reduce the timing of the ignition to safe levels, which causes a reduction in power and fuel economy.

3) You can diagnose most GM vehicles, some Ford, and Dodge is under development (should be ready this month). If you have a particular vehicle in mind let me know and I will verify if it is currently supported.

4) I do not keep my laptop in my car unless I am working on future product development. I use the Stage 0 tune all winter and it will not cause any difference in your stability control or traction control.

5) I play in the snow with my Aero daily, no problems. Traction control keeps you out of trouble (unless you turn it off).

Cheers,
VTuner


Ive been trolling this thread since it started, and now that I have had my car for a few months, I may be ready to start tinkering with it. Few questions that I havent seen answered yet:


1) I noticed this tune was created in Vermont, which I think is roughly around 900ft altitude? Im from the heavenly rockies, with an altitude of 5,281. How is this tune going to be affected by this? Obviously I will see less power gains, but is there anything that will be thrown off by the lack of air that will cause more stress and wear on my components?

2) I saw mentioned earlier that someone could only get 91 octane from the pump, and saw that it would still be ok just the obvious less gains again. Most places I can get 91, but every now and then ill be forced to get 89. Is this going to cause any major problems if that incident should ever occur?

3) Since we are actually just buying the program with your tuning file included, what are the chances say I could hook up the computer/program to another make/model of car and use it for diagnostic purposes?

4) Say I got the program, but in the effort to lower the chances of the increase wear on the engine, or basically prevent me from increasing the change of being stupid and getting myself in trouble, would it be bad to keep my computer in the car, and switch between your tune and the manu. settings more often then not all depending on driving conditions. (IE, stock settings on snow/wet days, long drives ; Vtune settings on track weekends / canyon drives)

5) Has anyone had the chance to see how this tune changes your driving in poor/snowy conditions?

6) I know all of this talk has been about stage 0, but seen a few hints about stage 1. Any updates, expected/hoping for timelines? What about a slightly less beefed up tune? Should I get this, or wait for whats coming next basically...

Thanks
:D

NinjaZX6R
6th March 2009, 12:28 AM
Well, I just got home from a test drive with the Stage 0. I don't really know what to say. I will re-post tomorrow when I am calm and collected because I sure as hell am not right now. It's just plain scary fast, and that's all I can say. People probably thought I was insane with all the yelling going on in my car (by myself).

Brian went above and beyond to help me get this installed tonight. Even at 10:30pm his time, he gave me a call to make sure everything was all right. If you ask me, I'd say that I'll buy the same car he does next time around so I can always be on his customer list.

-Collin-

NinjaZX6R
6th March 2009, 05:39 PM
Well, been driving around all day today. City, freeway, twisties, all is well. I'm happy to confirm no issues and it's really smooth power delivery once the computer adapted to my driving. Very impressed to say the very least.

So...who's next?

-Collin-

lmpreza
6th March 2009, 06:00 PM
Brian, could you chime in on the differances/changes to the 3BAR map sensor you sell? I could probably use one here in a few weeks, I have a 24x12x4" intercooler arriving monday I plan to fit sometime during the week... if it fits, I really hope 4" was not too thick. Either way I'll make it work.

Energy_AZ
6th March 2009, 06:38 PM
You will see a small reduction in power with 91 octane, but it is safe to use. My tune will actually increase you MPGs IF you drive conservatively, or use the cruise control. The increase comes from the revised cam and spark tables, as well as the K&N filter if you use it.


Could you elaborate on small reduction of power? 5-10% hit or something more noticeable?

Glad to hear there is a slight MPG improvement as I have long commute!

Thanks for the feedback, I will probably be getting in touch with you in a couple weeks or so.

:cool:

goSAAByourself
6th March 2009, 06:40 PM
1) High altitude is definitely a concern for performance tuning. I have some customer data from 4000 ft elevations and have not seen anything of concern yet, but the oxygen levels are down to 17.1% at 5200ft compared to 18% at 4000ft (Sea level is 21%). I have spoken with 2006+ Aero owners from Colorado that have expressed problems with the stock tuning (low power, black smoke out the tailpipe) which is a symptom of exceeding the cat over temp limit which will trigger massive amounts of fuel to be dumped in attempt to cool the engine. Based on these observations, I would be cautious about tuning your Aero at this elevation, especially if you plan to drive up into the mountains at higher altitudes.

Cheers,
VTuner

Who are this owners that are complaining about about an overfuel problem running a stock map? Ive never seen any good running car have any fuel issues up here, aside from the say a powerstroke or cummins of course. Id be interested in getting with one of those guys and taking a looks at what they are experincing. My aero, as far as I know, runs quite well right now. No smoke at all except when cold, which of course is none colored smoke. Power is always good considering our altitude.

I hate the fact I cant do anything with this car aside from an intake a exhaust. I dont have the time nor money to go the dyno tune route. Anyway we can work something out to where ill start with your stage 0 tune, get some data built up, have you take a look at it and we can figure out the best route from there?

VTuner
6th March 2009, 07:02 PM
I really need to create a custom tune to utilize the 3 Bar map sensors. Since this is a way to trick the VCM into allowing more boost, the absolute loads are calculated properly, but the volumetric efficiency calculations are not, nor are the calculated air loads. I have done some development work on this, but I am not satisfied with the results yet. For WOT drag racing it is probably fine, but at light loads there are some issues with fuel trims and timing that I need to spend time on to fix. Unfortunately, I would not recommend dropping in a 3 BAR map sensor with the Stage 0 tune. I will let you know when I have something I think is safe for you to try out. This is really just a diversion until we have access to the max boost tables in the software.

Cheers,
VTuner

Brian, could you chime in on the differances/changes to the 3BAR map sensor you sell? I could probably use one here in a few weeks, I have a 24x12x4" intercooler arriving monday I plan to fit sometime during the week... if it fits, I really hope 4" was not too thick. Either way I'll make it work.

mdegracia
6th March 2009, 09:11 PM
My big news of the day is that while out earlier on a closed track that a friend of ours owns, my good friend and I decided to run his Nordic Tuned stage 3 Viggen against my car. It's something we have been talking about doing since I got my car.
His car is a 3 door viggen and is pretty much at Stage 4 Hardware except the Turbo (which is coming soon). My car has the VTuner Stage 0 and that's it.
The results? DEAD EVEN. :cool: I literally don't think I've seen two cars be so close accelleration wise. We did 4 runs, two from 60 - 120ish and two from 15/20 - 120ish. I seemed to do a better job at controlling wheelspin so I got a bit of a jump but we were completely neck and neck the entire time after that. He did seem to get a boost around 110 though which caught him up to my launch gain every time and passed me once. Overall though, it was really as close as you could get to being completely even. We had a blast. thought you guys would appreciate that the VTuner stage 0, at less than $800 was at least as fast as an extremely well maintained Viggen with....oh....I would say at least 3K in engine upgrades (including the cost of each stage he's paid for and then had to purchase the new ECU every time he upgraded something else). So, in my opinion, all in all, bang for the buck, VTuner rules :lol:

I know my buddy checks these forums from time to time, but I'm not sure if he's got an account, maybe he'll chime in. Either way, thought you guys would appreciate hearing about all of that. Pretty awesome way to start off a Sunday[/QUOTE]

So finally had a chance to post on the pulls we had.

Car is basically Stg 4 just just running an old tune (Nordic 3 tune, ets, turbo pipe, intake, GS DP v2, 3" SS exhaust, walbro 340) full poly suspension and engine/tranny mounts help out where they can.

Anyways, the pulls were very good considering it was cold, 45 deg F and wheel spin was a major issue (I don't have TCS to help me ;)). Like Marty said we did a few roll-ons as well as some near dead stops up grade. One thing that I would like to do differently next time is initiate the pulls since I didn't time the beeps as well as I would have liked, but still managed to gain on Marty, even with 5th gear lock-out issues:cool: not sure that's consider dead even....

But I'm not sure it will be an even race next time...I will be having JZW making a tune for my new parts list I have been working on (19t/6cm^2, JE pistons, green giants, T5 cams, quaife, SPEC 3 disk, lighten flywheel and F35 tranny update)! :cheesy:

VTuner
6th March 2009, 09:36 PM
Who are this owners that are complaining about about an overfuel problem running a stock map? Ive never seen any good running car have any fuel issues up here, aside from the say a powerstroke or cummins of course. Id be interested in getting with one of those guys and taking a looks at what they are experincing. My aero, as far as I know, runs quite well right now. No smoke at all except when cold, which of course is none colored smoke. Power is always good considering our altitude.

I hate the fact I cant do anything with this car aside from an intake a exhaust. I dont have the time nor money to go the dyno tune route. Anyway we can work something out to where ill start with your stage 0 tune, get some data built up, have you take a look at it and we can figure out the best route from there?

Sure, we can tune it and see how it runs at altitude. The info I have came from another SaabCentral user, WSD I believe. Perhaps he can provide more discussion if he is still around on the Forums.

goSAAByourself
6th March 2009, 10:09 PM
Sounds like a plan. Ill look him up and send him a message, see if he replies. In the meantime, my roommate just lost his job, as soon as his gets back into work or I move out, ill probably be putting in an order for your tune.

I dont know a lot when it comes to this intensive programming stuff, but I have done some in-depth EGR diagnostics on some Detriot DDEC V systems up here where the altitude came into play with the fuel queite a bit. I was working with a guy from LA to try and figure things out, and while I know our system is a completely different breed from a 60series, it didnt take much to adjust for the less air up here. So I am hoping this will be the case with your tune.

Supergilson
7th March 2009, 07:23 PM
I am happy to have such warm weather in PA lately. I know turbos push a little more air when it's colder, but this thing doesn't want to rip the tires off the road in second gear anymore! That's probably a good thing for me overall, but it's a tad less fun. Is there that much of a power loss or do the tires just stick better in warmer weather?

VTuner
7th March 2009, 07:56 PM
It depends on the temperature and humidity, so it would vary and I have not tried to characterize this difference on the dyno. I doubt it would be more than a few percent difference. In the winter (in colder climates) you can easily drop down to 91 from 93 octane without any loss in power. In the summer when the weather is very hot and dry, you will notice a bigger difference between 93 and 91.

Could you elaborate on small reduction of power? 5-10% hit or something more noticeable?

Glad to hear there is a slight MPG improvement as I have long commute!

Thanks for the feedback, I will probably be getting in touch with you in a couple weeks or so.

:cool:

VTuner
7th March 2009, 08:06 PM
I am happy to have such warm weather in PA lately. I know turbos push a little more air when it's colder, but this thing doesn't want to rip the tires off the road in second gear anymore! That's probably a good thing for me overall, but it's a tad less fun. Is there that much of a power loss or do the tires just stick better in warmer weather?

It is likely that combined with the fact that the tune has adapted to meet my target air loads more closely since you first tuned the car. The boost profile is adjusted to meet the targeted torque request, and this is refined over time. I have been working on an update for the manual transmissions that implements launch control, and I have noticed that the car boosts stronger in the higher gears after launching with this on. I think that holding the car at WOT while the rpm is held at 3000rpm is causing the boost adaptation to start over.

Cheers,
VTuner

Energy_AZ
7th March 2009, 10:04 PM
It depends on the temperature and humidity, so it would vary and I have not tried to characterize this difference on the dyno. I doubt it would be more than a few percent difference. In the winter (in colder climates) you can easily drop down to 91 from 93 octane without any loss in power. In the summer when the weather is very hot and dry, you will notice a bigger difference between 93 and 91.

I live in Phoenix, exceptionally hot & dry conditions. But I ran the BSR tune on my last 9-3 and it was a noticeable upgrade, so I cant see why yours wouldnt be.

Either way 91 or 93 your tune gives lots of bang for the buck. :)

Do you require the VIN number like the other guys do when someone orders your tune?

Do you plan to release updates to the basic Stage 0 tune if/as applicable?

Thanks!

NinjaZX6R
8th March 2009, 06:36 AM
I live in Phoenix, exceptionally hot & dry conditions. But I ran the BSR tune on my last 9-3 and it was a noticeable upgrade, so I cant see why yours wouldnt be.

Either way 91 or 93 your tune gives lots of bang for the buck. :)

Do you require the VIN number like the other guys do when someone orders your tune?

Do you plan to release updates to the basic Stage 0 tune if/as applicable?

Thanks!

Hmm, I know Brian will answer you ASAP but maybe I'll step in in his absense? He doesn't require VIN as the HP Tuners software will read your specific tune and use the credits appicable to that car. That didn't say much, but Brian will not ask for your VIN number. When he sends you the tune file and you upload it to your ECU, 4 of the 8 credits will automatically be used from HP Tuners' software. As for updates, he's already stated that when he unlocks the top-speed limiter it will be a free update for us. I think the only thing Brian will charge for would be a Stage 0 to Stage 1, which requires a turbo upgrade and bigger injectors.

Brian, am I correct?

take care,

-Collin-

VTuner
8th March 2009, 07:51 AM
Hmm, I know Brian will answer you ASAP but maybe I'll step in in his absense? He doesn't require VIN as the HP Tuners software will read your specific tune and use the credits appicable to that car. That didn't say much, but Brian will not ask for your VIN number. When he sends you the tune file and you upload it to your ECU, 4 of the 8 credits will automatically be used from HP Tuners' software. As for updates, he's already stated that when he unlocks the top-speed limiter it will be a free update for us. I think the only thing Brian will charge for would be a Stage 0 to Stage 1, which requires a turbo upgrade and bigger injectors.

Brian, am I correct?

take care,

-Collin-

Well said Collin! Thanks for the reply; I occasionally need food and rest. :p

lmpreza
8th March 2009, 02:17 PM
Well said Collin! Thanks for the reply; I occasionally need food and rest. :p

Here's your gruel, and here's your bread, now get back to work, swine! *cracks a whip*

goSAAByourself
8th March 2009, 07:05 PM
So you start out with 8 credits, and then lose four with the initial upload. So what else uses up credits? Just uploading changes, or is it everytime it sensors a new ecu?

Hmm, I know Brian will answer you ASAP but maybe I'll step in in his absense? He doesn't require VIN as the HP Tuners software will read your specific tune and use the credits appicable to that car. That didn't say much, but Brian will not ask for your VIN number. When he sends you the tune file and you upload it to your ECU, 4 of the 8 credits will automatically be used from HP Tuners' software. As for updates, he's already stated that when he unlocks the top-speed limiter it will be a free update for us. I think the only thing Brian will charge for would be a Stage 0 to Stage 1, which requires a turbo upgrade and bigger injectors.

Brian, am I correct?

take care,

-Collin-

VTuner
8th March 2009, 07:55 PM
So you start out with 8 credits, and then lose four with the initial upload. So what else uses up credits? Just uploading changes, or is it everytime it sensors a new ecu?

The credits are used per VIN tuned. The tuner ships standard with 8 credits, and there are many other cars that the software can be used for. There are also some HP Tuner upgrades that can be purchased for other manufacturer/models but nothing for Saab at this time.

VTuner

technog0d
8th March 2009, 08:07 PM
I just wanted to post that I have 6500 miles and 4500 miles of that are Vtuner tuned. Everything seems to be working very well. I am actually going to get an oil change soon and change my air filter to a K&N. I will tell you the biggest downside to the tune is that you feel very trapped in traffic. :-(

Just wanted to give an update...

lmpreza
9th March 2009, 12:18 PM
Brian, I just thought of something...

Have you ever considered a MAF scaling system for stage1?

It would require full scaling of fuel... though without boost control it may not make a lick of differance...

Back in the subaru world they used to sell BIG MAF kits that used a larger MAF pipe which made the MAF voltage scale down physically so we would have more upper-range of reading through the MAF without some sort of voltage mod.


Bigger the tube, the less dense the air will be flowing through it under the same circumstances, so the MAF voltage will read lower.

Fuel would have to be scaled up all across the board, and it might make the car force more boost to reach target airflow numbers.

VTuner
9th March 2009, 01:27 PM
I have beat the scaling thing to death already. The main problem I am having is the ability to define the displacement volume of the motor. The idea with the MAF scaling and Bosch torque structure is to make the PCM think it is controling an exact replica of the real motor, only scaled down to say 2 liters instead of 2.8 liters, thus calculated torque would be lower. Now that we have access to maximum torque request, this is not the limiting factor. Instead we are looking for the boost tables now. All of the fueling needs to be scaled as you indicate, but if the displacement is not scaled then wont work since there are checks in place to defeat this approach. The HP Tuner software allows you to adjust the MAF calibration tables, so I have tried everything you have mentioned already.

Cheers,
Brian
Brian, I just thought of something...

Have you ever considered a MAF scaling system for stage1?

It would require full scaling of fuel... though without boost control it may not make a lick of differance...

Back in the subaru world they used to sell BIG MAF kits that used a larger MAF pipe which made the MAF voltage scale down physically so we would have more upper-range of reading through the MAF without some sort of voltage mod.


Bigger the tube, the less dense the air will be flowing through it under the same circumstances, so the MAF voltage will read lower.

Fuel would have to be scaled up all across the board, and it might make the car force more boost to reach target airflow numbers.

NinjaZX6R
9th March 2009, 05:35 PM
I've put probably 500 miles on the tune since I flashed it Thursday night and while that's fairly meager compared to the others, I just wanted to report back that everything is still tip top. I have been having so much fun driving it lately.

This topic probably deserves a whole other thread, but my initial concern was that if Saab made the engine 250hp, how is it safe to run 320hp without any additional changes? After many members chimed in, I came to the realization that 250hp/258 ft lbs is extremely conservative for a turbo-charged V6. Now, I think I have an idea as to why they tuned it like this...

This thing has forceful torque steer now. It's just the nature of the car and while I'm getting used to it, when you gun this thing in second gear you REALLY have to hold on with both hands. If I'm going around a turn, I don't dare push the car...there is just no telling where I'll end up. I know Saab went to great lengths to improve the torque steer, but now with a lot more power it is beyond noticeable. This is also my first FWD performance car, so maybe this isn't anything out of the ordinary?

Anyway, to make a long story short, I am under the impression that Saab kept this at 250/258 so your average highschool kid wouldn't wrap it around a tree. Am I way off?

-Collin-

Supergilson
9th March 2009, 06:13 PM
A front wheel drive car with 320hp is gonna have torque steer. I don't think you could change that.

I seemed to have damaged some tires after two weeks! Hell, the front ones are cupped so much on the edges that it vibrates the wheel. I guess I need to learn how to drive the thing more responsibly.

Vector-SS
9th March 2009, 07:37 PM
Can someone please post some 2nd gear, 3rd gear runs with a speedo close up if possible. I've seen the ones posted here, but I want a closer view :cool:

Cosmicflash
10th March 2009, 05:55 PM
I just thought of this and had to ask. I,like many of you I assume, have had SEVERAL coolant tanks put in my car. It is an abvious design flaw on the V6 motor. Are you guys running VTuner or even BSR still having this issue. My current tank has the updated switched hoses and after 20K mi. it is done. Just curious.

Ferms I'm guessing you are one of the only ones that have had the tank replaced SEVERAL times. This is not a common occurrence despite the talk about it here.

With that in mind I've had the BSR tune since new (about 3,000 miles). I didn't have an issue with my tank however I did have it replaced just before my warranty was up.
I tracked and autox my car last summer several times and will guess that I got my car hotter than 99% of the V6's out there and no coolant probems.(I did catch my brake pads on fire though:o)

BWhelan
11th March 2009, 11:19 AM
Well I can tell you.

I very close buddy of mine was driving a Mazda3speed for a few years and that thing had some TERRIBLE torque steer. I'm not sure if it gets any worse than that thing, but if so - I'd def purchase a L.S.D.

He has now upgraded to a WRX STi, my plan for the future is to beat him in a race...:cool: If I can't do it in my car, i'm dropping a supercharger on my motorcycle...

lmpreza
11th March 2009, 12:13 PM
Well I can tell you.

I very close buddy of mine was driving a Mazda3speed for a few years and that thing had some TERRIBLE torque steer. I'm not sure if it gets any worse than that thing, but if so - I'd def purchase a L.S.D.

He has now upgraded to a WRX STi, my plan for the future is to beat him in a race...:cool: If I can't do it in my car, i'm dropping a supercharger on my motorcycle...

You could turbocharge it instead, like I did mine...
http://www.sportbikes.net/forums/yzf-r6/385767-turbo-r6-project.html
http://photos-g.ak.fbcdn.net/photos-ak-sf2p/v232/45/65/66301269/n66301269_30726726_7832.jpg

:)

Energy_AZ
11th March 2009, 01:54 PM
The credits are used per VIN tuned. The tuner ships standard with 8 credits, and there are many other cars that the software can be used for. There are also some HP Tuner upgrades that can be purchased for other manufacturer/models but nothing for Saab at this time.

VTuner

How about a 2003 9-5 2.3t? :)

REOSPDWGN
11th March 2009, 04:33 PM
This thing has forceful torque steer now. It's just the nature of the car and while I'm getting used to it, when you gun this thing in second gear you REALLY have to hold on with both hands. If I'm going around a turn, I don't dare push the car...there is just no telling where I'll end up.
-Collin-

As my wife will also occasionally drive mine, makes me think I really need something like a Stage 0.8!;oops::cheesy:

Energy_AZ
11th March 2009, 04:48 PM
As my wife will also occasionally drive mine, makes me think I really need something like a Stage 0.8!;oops::cheesy:

No kidding. If the torque steer makes the car too difficult to drive for my wife I will have to pass on this particular upgrade.


Seriously guys - this could be a deal breaker for me. How bad is the torque steer and would it make driving difficult for a petite woman?

All it takes is for her to lose control once......

technog0d
11th March 2009, 10:59 PM
IT's not that bad. It's just how you drive it. If you are full out WOT, then it will be a little bit harder to hold on. ALthough, I don't have a problem. Most wives i know don't drive like us. :-)

Energy_AZ
11th March 2009, 11:07 PM
IT's not that bad. It's just how you drive it. If you are full out WOT, then it will be a little bit harder to hold on. ALthough, I don't have a problem. Most wives i know don't drive like us. :-)

True. My wife especially, drives as if she was twice her age! But she is a petite woman and cant open a new pickle jar without me starting it off for her, so I shuddered to think how she might handle a 320hp FWD beast. :cheesy:

technog0d
12th March 2009, 11:09 AM
The thing i really want to stress is that the car drives very civilized after the tune. It's not like normal driving is going to be effected. If you drive the car like most other lower powered cars are driven it will still drive sanely. I think a lot of people have the misconception that it is going to be a high rev mod like a 4 cylinder engine and it is always ready to go. It is not like that. Driven normally it drives in a normal controlled fashion. Driven aggressively it is a monster...

xobrut
12th March 2009, 04:35 PM
So I have been pseudo lurking on this site for the past 4-5 months commenting on a few things but sitting back WRT performance. Having purchased an X back in June and quietly doing my research about cranking up the fun, I am so so glad to have found this thread. The wealth of information here, even beyond my communication with Brian last fall (which was stellar) has significantly eased my fears about doing another tune on a SAAB car. Those fears were predominantly related to the transmission/tranny/XWD not shredding with this much twisty stuff.

Before I take the plunge, I just need to better understand why my car has lost 8oz or so of antifreeze (enough to trigger the light) even though there's no smoke or drips anywhere. In the meantime, I love hearing all the reports, concerns, etc.

I was thinking about the wife scenario. Now if there was only a valet button/mode :)

Barry

saab19
12th March 2009, 11:50 PM
I bet you could set that up, somehow

Energy_AZ
13th March 2009, 11:32 AM
So I have been pseudo lurking on this site for the past 4-5 months commenting on a few things but sitting back WRT performance. Having purchased an X back in June and quietly doing my research about cranking up the fun, I am so so glad to have found this thread. The wealth of information here, even beyond my communication with Brian last fall (which was stellar) has significantly eased my fears about doing another tune on a SAAB car. Those fears were predominantly related to the transmission/tranny/XWD not shredding with this much twisty stuff.

Before I take the plunge, I just need to better understand why my car has lost 8oz or so of antifreeze (enough to trigger the light) even though there's no smoke or drips anywhere. In the meantime, I love hearing all the reports, concerns, etc.

I was thinking about the wife scenario. Now if there was only a valet button/mode :)

Barry

I had similar situation in my old 2.0t. I didnt think it was a big deal at the time. 20k miles later, I lost my tranny due to coolant contamination. :evil:

technog0d
13th March 2009, 11:37 AM
I wish i never said anything about torque steer. It is really only when you are driving aggressively. My wife never knew the difference because she drives a lot more timid than me. I don't want to give the wrong impression on the tune. Remember that you can go back to stock at any time by flashing the base calibration back to the car. That takes about 30-60 seconds with a computer. I keep a nettop in my car just in case i ever need to flash it back real quick (think warranty)... But, you could flash it back to base when your wife is driving. I don't know about you guys, but when my wife and i go out, I usually drive. So the only instance that she drives is when she takes the car alone. Which she never does because she hates driving stick and has a BMW herself...

NinjaZX6R
17th March 2009, 01:33 AM
I wish i never said anything about torque steer. It is really only when you are driving aggressively. My wife never knew the difference because she drives a lot more timid than me. I don't want to give the wrong impression on the tune. Remember that you can go back to stock at any time by flashing the base calibration back to the car. That takes about 30-60 seconds with a computer. I keep a nettop in my car just in case i ever need to flash it back real quick (think warranty)... But, you could flash it back to base when your wife is driving. I don't know about you guys, but when my wife and i go out, I usually drive. So the only instance that she drives is when she takes the car alone. Which she never does because she hates driving stick and has a BMW herself...

Me as well, I shouldn't have said anything about torque steer. In reality, it's only when you REALLY push the car that it becomes an issue. My whining about torque steer would essentially be the same as me complaining about adding a suprcharger to a Mustang and needing to replace the rear tires more often. Let me make something clear - the car is not unmanageable in any way. Now on the other hand, if wives decide to do some WOT neutral drops or clutch drops, make sure they're holding on with both hands.

Over two weeks on the tune here and I'm still living to tell about it. It is so damn fun I can't describe it, and I will never, ever flash it back to stock unless I absolutely have to...

-Collin-

jwrussell
19th March 2009, 12:36 PM
Hmmmm...either I missed a post, or...Brian, your car description says Stage 1...somethin' you aren't telling us? ;)


Another quick question, if you feel comfortable answering it, approximately how many people are running your tune for the 2.8T?

My baby goes OOW after this year and I'm seriously toying with the idea of your tune. Was planning on BSR, but the HP/$ figure for yours is just so much more enticing. :)
(please, not bashing BSR, we don't need to go into that discussion again)

VTuner
19th March 2009, 01:34 PM
I have a modest number of customers ;)

Stage 1 developments are underway and I will share information as I have success. I have a brand new turbo on my bench this morning (see photo attached), that I am just disassembling and taking component measurements today. This unit will be going out for some upgrades shortly to boost flow capability.

I have scheduled some time on the dyno this Friday to review new developments. The upgrades to the turbo won't be ready for a few weeks yet, so stay tuned for future developments on Stage 1.

Cheers,
Brian



Hmmmm...either I missed a post, or...Brian, your car description says Stage 1...somethin' you aren't telling us? ;)


Another quick question, if you feel comfortable answering it, approximately how many people are running your tune for the 2.8T?

My baby goes OOW after this year and I'm seriously toying with the idea of your tune. Was planning on BSR, but the HP/$ figure for yours is just so much more enticing. :)
(please, not bashing BSR, we don't need to go into that discussion again)

lmpreza
19th March 2009, 01:58 PM
I have a modest number of customers ;)

Stage 1 developments are underway and I will share information as I have success. I have a brand new turbo on my bench this morning (see photo attached), that I am just disassembling and taking component measurements today. This unit will be going out for some upgrades shortly to boost flow capability.

I have scheduled some time on the dyno this Friday to review new developments. The upgrades to the turbo won't be ready for a few weeks yet, so stay tuned for future developments on Stage 1.

Cheers,
Brian

What size turbo is this?

Also, I don't know if you are aware, but, the compressor housing has a bypass valve built into it, the bypass valve has some sort of sensor in it as well, if disconnected it may cause issues.

Edit: Also, if the exhaust wheel is larger than the stock wheel, it will require some machining to make the exhaust housing work.

jwrussell
19th March 2009, 04:00 PM
I have a modest number of customers ;)

Stage 1 developments are underway and I will share information as I have success. I have a brand new turbo on my bench this morning (see photo attached), that I am just disassembling and taking component measurements today. This unit will be going out for some upgrades shortly to boost flow capability.

I have scheduled some time on the dyno this Friday to review new developments. The upgrades to the turbo won't be ready for a few weeks yet, so stay tuned for future developments on Stage 1.

Cheers,
Brian

Thanks for the reply! I was just curious. Stage 0 is more than enough for me at the moment! :lol: Confirm for me if I'm right in what I remember, but you are completely stock other than the drop in filter, no? Any plans on doing exhaust?

VTuner
19th March 2009, 08:25 PM
I need a larger spanner to remove the retaining clip, so I did not measure the compressor dimensions yet, just the turbine. This is the TD04HLB that will be getting a new 19T compressor wheel and an upgrade to the turbine wheel and housings. The turbine wheel inducer is 51.5mm, the exducer is 45mm. The Compressor housing inlet is 53mm (ID) and the outlet ID is 45mm. I am considering Blouch in PA for the work.

Thanks for the note regarding the bypass valve. I have not removed it and did not plan on doing so.

Cheers,
Brian

What size turbo is this?

Also, I don't know if you are aware, but, the compressor housing has a bypass valve built into it, the bypass valve has some sort of sensor in it as well, if disconnected it may cause issues.

Edit: Also, if the exhaust wheel is larger than the stock wheel, it will require some machining to make the exhaust housing work.

VTuner
19th March 2009, 08:32 PM
Stage 0 is completely stock except for the drop-in filter. Stage 1 will be moderate hardware upgrades, but at minimum a turbo exchange/upgrade and fuel injectors are looking to be on order.

Cheers,
Brian

Thanks for the reply! I was just curious. Stage 0 is more than enough for me at the moment! :lol: Confirm for me if I'm right in what I remember, but you are completely stock other than the drop in filter, no? Any plans on doing exhaust?

Energy_AZ
19th March 2009, 08:37 PM
Not to sound like a cheap skate, but is the drop in filter totally necessary?

I thought I heard several reports on this site that the stock filter is, for the most part, just as good as a K&N drop in.

lmpreza
19th March 2009, 09:12 PM
I need a larger spanner to remove the retaining clip, so I did not measure the compressor dimensions yet, just the turbine. This is the TD04HLB that will be getting a new 19T compressor wheel and an upgrade to the turbine wheel and housings. The turbine wheel inducer is 51.5mm, the exducer is 45mm. The Compressor housing inlet is 53mm (ID) and the outlet ID is 45mm. I am considering Blouch in PA for the work.

Thanks for the note regarding the bypass valve. I have not removed it and did not plan on doing so.

Cheers,
Brian

19T compressor wheel will not fit into the 15T compressor housing... you will need to find a solution for this BPV

VTuner
20th March 2009, 06:14 AM
19T compressor wheel will not fit into the 15T compressor housing... you will need to find a solution for this BPV

Blouch machines the housing to fit the new wheel. You can watch the process on their website.

http://www.blouchturbo.com/clips/upgrading101/index.htm

idontknow
20th March 2009, 09:25 AM
Blouch machines the housing to fit the new wheel. You can watch the process on their website.

http://www.blouchturbo.com/clips/upgrading101/index.htm

blouch turbo huh, there about a 1/2 mile from my house

kanundrum
29th March 2009, 11:36 PM
*watches* :P

stripedrex
30th March 2009, 01:04 AM
I still owe a full review. Just wanted to chime in and say VTuner Stage 0 is AMAZING. I've driven in a few modified cars some over 500hp. I can NOT believe how much the stock Aero can breathe and how little needs to be done. Iíve had this tune for over a month and 2000 miles and I have to say itís been very stable. Logs show virtually 0 knock and the trims even with a fresh flash look good. Iíve been able to flash back to stock and XWD 280hp map (even this is far superior to the stock 07 aero map but no comparison to VTuners map). Even after almost 2 months I'm in awe and 'woohooing' while I'm driving. Some of the automatic driving shifting problems I have seems to have gone away. Car seems to shift better which might be more the result of my desire to punch it lol. I have a Subaru FXT Turbo protuned with an upgraded turbo and a lot of labor doing close to 300hp to the wheels and it makes me jealous my wifeís car is as fast (faster past 60 probably) with just a tune. Damnit lol. Now itís hard to choose what car to drive on errands, her Snaab SportCombi wins on trips =).

I do want to write a full review soon. Apologies for the delay. I do have to say the torque steer is bordering on insane. It makes me wish I had the AWD 2.8 or limited slip diffs perhaps?

Also I wanted to mention I got a chance to meet Brian. Great guy, you can tell he LOVES working on this project which reflects in the detail he's put in his work. Went out of his way to help me get started during my visit to VT. Much thanks and pleasure to meet you. Keep up the great work. I canít even imagine what the next stage will bring =). Personally I think the car is perfect short of stiffer sway bars.

Titansaab27
30th March 2009, 05:00 AM
anyone know if the autobox will be able to handle the 400 lb-ft that this tune produces reliably?

North Toronto Punter
30th March 2009, 10:07 AM
Re: Autobox being able to handle extra power (+ added complication of AWD in my case): Wondering same...

(The only reason I might 'compromise' on lower output from BSR)

Brian: You can only guess-timate, eh?

[God, How I 'wish upon a star ' that it can :D ].

VTuner
30th March 2009, 10:36 AM
BSR Stage 3 is 520nm vs my stage 0 of 540nm, the difference is fairly minor.


On another note, My Aero is going under the knife on Monday. New turbo going in from Blouch.

Cheers,
Brian


Re: Autobox being able to handle extra power (+ added complication of AWD in my case): Wondering same...

(The only reason I might 'compromise' on lower output from BSR)

Brian: You can only guess-timate, eh?

[God, How I 'wish upon a star ' that it can :D ].

lmpreza
30th March 2009, 11:14 AM
BSR Stage 3 is 520nm vs my stage 0 of 540nm, the difference is fairly minor.


On another note, My Aero is going under the knife on Monday. New turbo going in from Blouch.

Cheers,
Brian

You mean, next monday... right?

VTuner
30th March 2009, 11:29 AM
You mean, next monday... right?

Correct. The new turbo is shipping out from Blouch today, should be here on Wednesday, and the install is scheduled for next Monday.

Regars,
Brian

lmpreza
30th March 2009, 11:56 AM
Correct. The new turbo is shipping out from Blouch today, should be here on Wednesday, and the install is scheduled for next Monday.

Regars,
Brian

You could do it yourself in a few hours, she's easy access :)

Whats the flow rating at 1bar?

The 20G I had on my WRX was about 650cfm's at 14.7psi, versus the stock 13T at 335-350cfm's at 14.7

VTuner
30th March 2009, 12:41 PM
You could do it yourself in a few hours, she's easy access :)

Whats the flow rating at 1bar?

The 20G I had on my WRX was about 650cfm's at 14.7psi, versus the stock 13T at 335-350cfm's at 14.7

I need to confirm the exact wheel Blouch installed, but from what Mike said it sounded like a 20G wheel to me. I was estimating about the same from what I could find for compressor maps. I also discussed upgrading the turbine side, but mike thought all I should need to do is clip the turbine to reduce backpressure, so I am going with his advice.

From the pictures of your downpipe work I was also thinking the turbo should be an easy install (I have done a turbo swap once before on a FWD Chrysler K-car, which was a major pain in the Axx). Do you think the procedure in the WIS is the best way to proceed (ie, removing the sub-brace and such from under the car) It looks to me like you could do all the work without getting under the car at all.

Regards,
Brian

lmpreza
30th March 2009, 12:48 PM
I need to confirm the exact wheel Blouch installed, but from what Mike said it sounded like a 20G wheel to me. I was estimating about the same from what I could find for compressor maps. I also discussed upgrading the turbine side, but mike thought all I should need to do is clip the turbine to reduce backpressure, so I am going with his advice.

From the pictures of your downpipe work I was also thinking the turbo should be an easy install (I have done a turbo swap once before on a FWD Chrysler K-car, which was a major pain in the Axx). Do you think the procedure in the WIS is the best way to proceed (ie, removing the sub-brace and such from under the car) It looks to me like you could do all the work without getting under the car at all.

Regards,
Brian

Yeah, don't follow the wis. Everything is pretty much accessable from right on top. the hardest part will be the lower header bolts, but aside from that it should be easy. The heatshielding gets in the way the most. Take out the battery, battery box, coolant bottle, heatshielding, unbolt the downpipe and swing it away.

VTuner
30th March 2009, 12:59 PM
Yeah, don't follow the wis. Everything is pretty much accessable from right on top. the hardest part will be the lower header bolts, but aside from that it should be easy. The heatshielding gets in the way the most. Take out the battery, battery box, coolant bottle, heatshielding, unbolt the downpipe and swing it away.

OK, I will give it a go and if everything goes well I will take it up to Napierville to test on Sunday. It was raining here this last Sunday, so I could not go to the track for opening day. I really wanted to break into the 13s with Stage 0, but once the new turbo is in I will have to look for someone else to give this a try for the records.

Brian

lmpreza
30th March 2009, 01:07 PM
OK, I will give it a go and if everything goes well I will take it up to Napierville to test on Sunday. It was raining here this last Sunday, so I could not go to the track for opening day. I really wanted to break into the 13s with Stage 0, but once the new turbo is in I will have to look for someone else to give this a try for the records.

Brian


I should be able to do it, sans-wheelspin, however I'm not really stage-0 though :)

North Toronto Punter
30th March 2009, 01:19 PM
"BSR Stage 3 is 520nm vs my stage 0 of 540nm, the difference is fairly minor."

Thanks Brian:
In respect of the reliability of my Autobox I was thinking more in terms of the BSR Stage 1 [480nm] vs. your Stage 0 (which seems to be getting higher output all the time! ). If the stock TurboX output is 418nm... then we're looking at a nearly 30% boost in torque. Did our zealous Trollhattan engineers (or whoever the box was bought from) build in that kind of margin?

I can't (or am not prepared at this point) to enter into the 'elective surgical procedures' that you (and Impreza) are undertaking.

Don't get me wrong, I applaud -- tinged with jealousy!

The relative ease/low cost of a reversible software upgrade to over 300HP (whether PPC or cable a la VTuner) is extremely attractive to me (and I suspect probably a few hundred others out there --- at least half the TurboX community).

It's just that I'm scared...

lmpreza
30th March 2009, 01:21 PM
"BSR Stage 3 is 520nm vs my stage 0 of 540nm, the difference is fairly minor."

Thanks Brian:
In respect of the reliability of my Autobox I was thinking more in terms of the BSR Stage 1 [480nm] vs. your Stage 0 (which seems to be getting higher output all the time! ). If the stock TurboX output is 418nm... then we're looking at a nearly 30% boost in torque. Did our zealous Trollhattan engineers (or whoever the box was bought from) build in that kind of margin?

I can't (or am not prepared at this point) to enter into the 'elective' surgical procedures that you (and Impreza) are undertaking.

Don't get me wrong, I applaud -- tinged with jealousy!

The relative ease/low cost of a reversible software upgrade to over 300HP (whether PPC or cable a la VTuner) is extremely attractive to me (and I suspect probably a few hundred others out there --- at least half the TurboX community).

It's just that I'm scared...




I have the stage0 reflash on my mothers 08 automatic FWD aero.
It's not given any issues, however, she's not likely the one to blow it up, probably would take my abuse to detonate it :)

I'm not worried about the reliability TBQH, the automatic is a pretty solid transmission, and I'd be willing to bet the manual is more fragile.

North Toronto Punter
30th March 2009, 01:47 PM
Appreciate the insight and experience, Impreza.

Now I must ask myself: Am I more like you or your mother...:lol: .

[Oh hell, you only live once! (gulp...)]

technog0d
30th March 2009, 02:30 PM
I was scared too.. It's normal. All i can say is i have 8000 miles on my car now and it is still running strong. The other thing i can say is that Brian at Vtuner is so great to work with that i would buy from him just for that fact.

Just for the record, my car is manual.

Ferms_93_2.8T
30th March 2009, 11:24 PM
I was too curious about how much torque the Aisin-Warner AF40 could handle. I did some research awhile ago and I think it was rated up to 500lb-ft torque. If I can dig that up again, I will gladly post a link.


**Edit***
Alright I found it. Here is a website link and a pic of the excel spreadsheet.

700nm = 516.22lb-ft
http://media.gm.com/us/powertrain/en/product_services/2007/07car.htm

http://img509.imageshack.us/img509/8664/af406excel.png

goSAAByourself
31st March 2009, 12:01 AM
So I finally got everything installed on my car, but once it finished uploading to the ecm my 6disc dash cd player started freaking out. Sounded like it was just swapping out every disc none stop. Tried turning the car on and off, would still do it with the key out. Took every disc out and it eventually stopped. Started up again shortly after, this time I took out the hole assembly to prevent the motor from frying. Put it back in and didnt see any problems with it yet. Only been able to drive it once and not very hard, denver has been getting hit with snow all week. :(

Anyone else have a cd player freak out?

North Toronto Punter
31st March 2009, 12:41 AM
"I was too curious about how much torque the Aisin-Warner AF40 could handle. I did some research awhile ago and I think it was rated up to 500lb-ft torque. If I can dig that up again, I will gladly post a link.


**Edit***
Alright I found it. Here is a website link and a pic of the excel spreadsheet.

700nm = 516.22lb-ft
http://media.gm.com/us/powertrain/en/product_services/2007/07car.htm (http://media.gm.com/us/powertrain/en/product_services/2007/07car.htm)"


Thanks 'Ferms': This gives me considerable peace of mind.

[Hopefully the Haldex XWD can handle it all too! I've pored over their literature . They make much of the 'rally experience'. How much of that got translated to TurboX assembly, God only knows...].

Brian, you've nearly got me :D . I'm only at 4000 km. Once I flip to summer rubber and an oil change (imminent on both) I'll be calling.

VTuner
31st March 2009, 07:01 AM
So I finally got everything installed on my car, but once it finished uploading to the ecm my 6disc dash cd player started freaking out. Sounded like it was just swapping out every disc none stop. Tried turning the car on and off, would still do it with the key out. Took every disc out and it eventually stopped. Started up again shortly after, this time I took out the hole assembly to prevent the motor from frying. Put it back in and didnt see any problems with it yet. Only been able to drive it once and not very hard, denver has been getting hit with snow all week. :(

Anyone else have a cd player freak out?

I haven't heard of anyone with this problem previously, but we can investigate further if it repeats itself. We should only be writing to the calibration file and not changing any parameters associated with the CD player.

Regarding your altitude in the rockies, If you want to record a log file under normal driving I will review it for you and let you know if we should make any adjustments.

Cheers,
Brian

Dach
31st March 2009, 07:10 AM
Brian,

In this case, if I order a stage 0 or 1 tune from you, and I can log the parameters in my climate, I can send you a file to optimize it for this region?

Would the optimized tune be chargable or is it part of the VTuner benefits package? :)


Thanks!

VTuner
31st March 2009, 08:17 AM
I want each customer to experience the full performance I intended for them to have, so if I need to adjust the parameters to optimize for their vehicle it is no charge. I do see differences from vehicle to vehicle, even within the same model year, so it doesn't hurt to log a file and send it too me for review if you have any concerns. I will optimization for your environment as part of your basic installation if I think it is necessary for proper performance, at no charge.

Cheers,
Brian

Brian,

In this case, if I order a stage 0 or 1 tune from you, and I can log the parameters in my climate, I can send you a file to optimize it for this region?

Would the optimized tune be chargable or is it part of the VTuner benefits package? :)


Thanks!

jwrussell
31st March 2009, 09:37 AM
Man, oh man. That's service for ya! :)


Gotta hold off till I'm OOW at the end of the year, but after that, I'll be calling as well just as soon as I can scratch the cash together.

lmpreza
31st March 2009, 11:33 AM
Damnit Brian, now you seriously have me hankerin for like, 400whp, and a much larger turbo!

Any idea what the A/R is on the one you've got coming in?
Make sure to take some pictures, I'm interested to see what they did to it!

Dach
31st March 2009, 03:37 PM
I want each customer to experience the full performance I intended for them to have, so if I need to adjust the parameters to optimize for their vehicle it is no charge. I do see differences from vehicle to vehicle, even within the same model year, so it doesn't hurt to log a file and send it too me for review if you have any concerns. I will optimization for your environment as part of your basic installation if I think it is necessary for proper performance, at no charge.

Cheers,
Brian
Now thats service I respect! ;-) Thanks Brian. I've had some guys here with an interest for a tune that you're currently offering. Will let them know the possibilities of an optimized tune for our climate. it makes a huge diff. I had my car acclimatised and it made considerable gains after that.

goSAAByourself
31st March 2009, 08:44 PM
I haven't heard of anyone with this problem previously, but we can investigate further if it repeats itself. We should only be writing to the calibration file and not changing any parameters associated with the CD player.

Regarding your altitude in the rockies, If you want to record a log file under normal driving I will review it for you and let you know if we should make any adjustments.

Cheers,
Brian

Havent had a problem since, but ill keep you informed if something acts up again.

I sent you two log files, one of normal driving and another of aggressive driving. I havent seen any MILs yet, which is a good thing. Only been able to get on it a few times now, pretty exciting stuff. I dont have the torque steer that I see most people claiming, im guessing mainly from the altitude difference.

VTuner
1st April 2009, 10:06 PM
Damnit Brian, now you seriously have me hankerin for like, 400whp, and a much larger turbo!

Any idea what the A/R is on the one you've got coming in?
Make sure to take some pictures, I'm interested to see what they did to it!

A couple of pictures of the new upgraded turbo are attached.

Cheers,
Brian

lmpreza
1st April 2009, 10:49 PM
A couple of pictures of the new upgraded turbo are attached.

Cheers,
Brian

*****in, now go slap it in!

technog0d
2nd April 2009, 12:45 PM
How easy is it to replace the turbo in the Aero? Is it a long job? Can i do it in a day?

sausajes
2nd April 2009, 06:28 PM
Id like to know what kind of cars a vtuned 9-3 could go up against?

VTuner
4th April 2009, 11:06 AM
*****in, now go slap it in!

Working on the installation now, for about 2 hrs. I have all the heat shielding out of the way, battery is out, coolant bottle out of the way, everything is disconnected from the turbo except the down pipe, so hopefully it will continue smoothly. I did snap the clip on the rebreather, so I will need to replace that on Monday. Stay tuned.....

Cheers,
Brian

lmpreza
4th April 2009, 11:32 AM
Working on the installation now, for about 2 hrs. I have all the heat shielding out of the way, battery is out, coolant bottle out of the way, everything is disconnected from the turbo except the down pipe, so hopefully it will continue smoothly. I did snap the clip on the rebreather, so I will need to replace that on Monday. Stay tuned.....

Cheers,
Brian

It should, once you get the downpipe out of the way you have better access to the rear bank of the engine's manifold, there should be four bolts, two on each manifold for the inlets, after that you should be able to lift it out.

As for... "rebreather" what rebreather? For the battery bin?

You're probably going to have to do some serious MAF scaling.

IIRC the jump from my 13T to my 20G in my wrx bumped me from 350cfm's at 1bar to 650cfms at 1 bar. I'd wager the 15T pushes 400-425cfms at 1bar, if the 20G wheel is close/same, you can expect an increase of about ~50% airflow at the same boost.

I bet you'll see spikes of upwards of 270g/sec

Until the car freaks out and cuts boost.
Heh.

Do you have a map ready for it?

Also, did you get injectors yet? You're going to max those ones out, the car will sputter and not go past x boost or x rpms. At least thats what happened when I maxed out the stock 420cc injectors in my WRX, after the 20G install

edit: Car porn
http://photos-e.ll.facebook.com/photos-ll-sf2p/v15/45/65/66301269/n66301269_30083948_1656.jpg
The 13T on the right lives on in my Motorcycle pushing 9psi :)

VTuner
4th April 2009, 12:40 PM
The crankcase ventilation pipe is what I was referencing. I also need a new gasket for the oil return (damaged the original separating the pipe). So, I will definitely have to wait until Monday to complete the installation. My local Saab parts department is not open on Saturday :cry:

Blouch is calling this compressor wheel a Super 19T, not a 20G. Not sure of the exact flow capability, I told him where I wanted to be and he thought this would put me on the efficiency map, if just barely.

I have not ordered injectors yet, I will after I do some gentle testing to see where the injector duty cycles are at. You indicated that these flow 380cc at 3.8 bar. This is approximately 32 lb/hr at 43.5 psi. The fuel system should continue to rise to 5.5 bar, which would flow like 43lb/min per injector, which would get me where I want to be at 85% injector duty and assuming 0.55 BSFC (we shall see if that is realistic though). Once I have a better feeling of the fuel requirements I will decide what size of injectors to buy.

Cheers,
Brian

lmpreza
4th April 2009, 01:01 PM
The crankcase ventilation pipe is what I was referencing. I also need a new gasket for the oil return (damaged the original separating the pipe). So, I will definitely have to wait until Monday to complete the installation. My local Saab parts department is not open on Saturday :cry:

Blouch is calling this compressor wheel a Super 19T, not a 20G. Not sure of the exact flow capability, I told him where I wanted to be and he thought this would put me on the efficiency map, if just barely.

I have not ordered injectors yet, I will after I do some gentle testing to see where the injector duty cycles are at. You indicated that these flow 380cc at 3.8 bar. This is approximately 32 lb/hr at 43.5 psi. The fuel system should continue to rise to 5.5 bar, which would flow like 43lb/min per injector, which would get me where I want to be at 85% injector duty and assuming 0.55 BSFC (we shall see if that is realistic though). Once I have a better feeling of the fuel requirements I will decide what size of injectors to buy.

Cheers,
Brian

I'd say shoot for a 550-600cc injector, depending on how much actual flow this turbo is going to push, it's really more of a guesstimate, but injector sizing isn't so much an exact science, nor does it need to be.
Duty cycle really only gives you overhead, you could operate at a 50-60% duty cycle and it wouldn't really matter.

More of a cost/benefit thing in the end. I'd perfer to shoot big and have overhead for stage2,3,4,beyond.

Of couse, the bigger you go the more fun you'll have with scaling.

VTuner
6th April 2009, 04:44 PM
I'd say shoot for a 550-600cc injector, depending on how much actual flow this turbo is going to push, it's really more of a guesstimate, but injector sizing isn't so much an exact science, nor does it need to be.
Duty cycle really only gives you overhead, you could operate at a 50-60% duty cycle and it wouldn't really matter.

More of a cost/benefit thing in the end. I'd perfer to shoot big and have overhead for stage2,3,4,beyond.

Of couse, the bigger you go the more fun you'll have with scaling.

I am considering something like Bosch 0 280 156 012 injectors. These are 425cc at 3 bar, but remember this is a variable pressure system, so at max rail pressure of 5.5 bar these would flow 575cc. I shot an email to a contact I have at Bosch to see if they can assist in a good match as far as the spray profile goes (dual spray angles), which is still uncertain unless we have the OEM numbers for the stock injectors.

Looks like the installation will take a few more days. The parts I need are not stock items. I ordered them overnight delivery, but I will not be able to pick them up until Wednesday. The turbo is back in except for the parts I am waiting on. It really wasn't that bad to install, just should have ordered the seals in advance and been more gentle taking things apart.;oops:

The Saab parts department gave me some quizzical looks and said they had never had anyone order the parts I was requesting previously, but didn't ask for more details. The gasket was only $2 and change, but the crankcase ventilation pipe was around $55 (ouch).

Cheers,
Brian

lmpreza
6th April 2009, 11:12 PM
a subaru dealer should stock that gasket. All TD series cartridge based turbochargers use the same fittings/inlets/outlets/gaskets

lmpreza
6th April 2009, 11:18 PM
I am considering something like Bosch 0 280 156 012 injectors. These are 425cc at 3 bar, but remember this is a variable pressure system, so at max rail pressure of 5.5 bar these would flow 575cc. I shot an email to a contact I have at Bosch to see if they can assist in a good match as far as the spray profile goes (dual spray angles), which is still uncertain unless we have the OEM numbers for the stock injectors.

Looks like the installation will take a few more days. The parts I need are not stock items. I ordered them overnight delivery, but I will not be able to pick them up until Wednesday. The turbo is back in except for the parts I am waiting on. It really wasn't that bad to install, just should have ordered the seals in advance and been more gentle taking things apart.;oops:

The Saab parts department gave me some quizzical looks and said they had never had anyone order the parts I was requesting previously, but didn't ask for more details. The gasket was only $2 and change, but the crankcase ventilation pipe was around $55 (ouch).

Cheers,
Brian

The subaru's used a variable pressure system as well. In fact, most turbo vehicles do. The subaru IIRC increased fuel pressure 1psi per psi of boost.
800cc at standard pressure and i was running somewhere around 70% idc's making 332whp on race fuel

VTuner
7th April 2009, 06:57 AM
The subaru's used a variable pressure system as well. In fact, most turbo vehicles do. The subaru IIRC increased fuel pressure 1psi per psi of boost.
800cc at standard pressure and i was running somewhere around 70% idc's making 332whp on race fuel

You were probably running quite rich, assuming you were only at 1.5 bar boost you should have been flowing enough fuel for 430+hp at 70% idc's, even assuming a bsfc of 0.6. I know the subaru's are tuned very rich though. We run 35 psi rail pressure stock, and currently I see 70 psi max rail pressure at 320hp. This system is not vacuum operated, so I think it is a bit more sophisticated. The pump is directly controlled by a pwm signal based on fuel demand. It will increase the fuel pump duty cycle as necessary to meet request and make adjustments automatically.

Thanks for the suggestion to check with the subaru dealers for the gasket, wish I had thought to check soone, oh well. The part will be in today, I just don't have time today to go pick up the part (45 miles to dealership). We don't have any Subaru dealers any closer than that either.

I also ordered new spark plugs, Denso 5345 iridiums (IKH22), two heat ranges cooler than stock for stage 1. I believe these are pretty poplular on the subaru STIs and mitsubishi evos also.

lmpreza
7th April 2009, 12:17 PM
You were probably running quite rich, assuming you were only at 1.5 bar boost you should have been flowing enough fuel for 430+hp at 70% idc's, even assuming a bsfc of 0.6. I know the subaru's are tuned very rich though. We run 35 psi rail pressure stock, and currently I see 70 psi max rail pressure at 320hp. This system is not vacuum operated, so I think it is a bit more sophisticated. The pump is directly controlled by a pwm signal based on fuel demand. It will increase the fuel pump duty cycle as necessary to meet request and make adjustments automatically.

Thanks for the suggestion to check with the subaru dealers for the gasket, wish I had thought to check soone, oh well. The part will be in today, I just don't have time today to go pick up the part (45 miles to dealership). We don't have any Subaru dealers any closer than that either.

I also ordered new spark plugs, Denso 5345 iridiums (IKH22), two heat ranges cooler than stock for stage 1. I believe these are pretty poplular on the subaru STIs and mitsubishi evos also.

I stuck with platinums on my, 2 steps cooler as well, NGK's.

It did run quite rich, set for 10.5:1 at peak torque. Subaru drivetrain loss is right about 25% even, 332whp = 448 BHP. :)

Good luck with the new turbo, I want updates ASAP as well as a sound clips to hear that 19T wheel spooling :)

Oh, offtopic, accept my facebook request! haha

VTuner
9th April 2009, 07:05 PM
So the new turbo install was completed last night, leak checked and broke it in with some gentle testing this morning. This afternoon I pushed it with a moderate increase in boost and it held 15psi up to 5250 with ease. The mass airflow increased to over 36 lb/min at 5000 rpm, which should be good for 360hp. Better still, the %boost duty was around 75%, so there is still room to flow more. This is only the test tune set to delivery a 20% increase in boost, so I am confident there is room to extract more power. The increase in intake temperatures after a hard pull was also much lower since the compressor is back on the efficiency map for this level of flow. I never saw the intake temps go over 75F, even after a full throttle pull to redline in 3rd gear. Ambient temperature was about 49F.

Everything seems to be running smoothly, the power delivery is awesome, and it pushes strong all the way to 5000rpm. For comparison Stage 0 is pushing about 9.8 psi at 5250 where I am seeing 14 lbs easy with the new turbo upgrade. Boost was holding at 15 psi from 4000 - 5000 RPM.

I will try to get on the dyno ASAP to share some data. Right now I need to go drive some more:cheesy:

Cheers,
Brian

cjhutch
9th April 2009, 07:11 PM
So what is your peak boost right now?

lmpreza
9th April 2009, 07:47 PM
So the new turbo install was completed last night, leak checked and broke it in with some gentle testing this morning. This afternoon I pushed it with a moderate increase in boost and it held 15psi up to 5250 with ease. The mass airflow increased to over 36 lb/min at 5000 rpm, which should be good for 360hp. Better still, the %boost duty was around 75%, so there is still room to flow more. This is only the test tune set to delivery a 20% increase in boost, so I am confident there is room to extract more power. The increase in intake temperatures after a hard pull was also much lower since the compressor is back on the efficiency map for this level of flow. I never saw the intake temps go over 75F, even after a full throttle pull to redline in 3rd gear. Ambient temperature was about 49F.

Everything seems to be running smoothly, the power delivery is awesome, and it pushes strong all the way to 5000rpm. For comparison Stage 0 is pushing about 9.8 psi at 5250 where I am seeing 14 lbs easy with the new turbo upgrade. Boost was holding at 15 psi from 4000 - 5000 RPM.

I will try to get on the dyno ASAP to share some data. Right now I need to go drive some more:cheesy:

Cheers,
Brian


kjhfsadkga

VTuner
9th April 2009, 10:06 PM
So what is your peak boost right now?

I peaked briefly, as in a momentary spike, to 17 psi at 4500 rpm, which is measured after the intercooler. The pressure control is very tight, so It doesn't overshoot my target much or surge.

cconely
10th April 2009, 04:07 PM
I was on my way back from Friday lunch w/ my wife, and the CAN port cover opened during a particularly enjoyable corner.....I'm quite sure it was trying to tell me something.

So, I'll be not-so-patiently awaiting my software to put a little extra spring the step of my '06 Aero SC. :D

Chad.

VTuner
10th April 2009, 07:30 PM
Welcome to the family Chad!

You should receive your Stage 0 order by Wednesday. I was out putting a bit more spring in my Aero today as well, but I think ballistic might be a more appropriate term for Stage 1 :o.

Cheers,
Brian

I was on my way back from Friday lunch w/ my wife, and the CAN port cover opened during a particularly enjoyable corner.....I'm quite sure it was trying to tell me something.

So, I'll be not-so-patiently awaiting my software to put a little extra spring the step of my '06 Aero SC. :D

Chad.

Supergilson
14th April 2009, 09:32 PM
Obviously, I installed stage 0 myself... what are the chances I am able to install stage 1?

I'm a mechanically inclined fella, but I ain't never installed no turbo before!:cool:

VTuner
15th April 2009, 07:35 AM
Obviously, I installed stage 0 myself... what are the chances I am able to install stage 1?

I'm a mechanically inclined fella, but I ain't never installed no turbo before!:cool:

As long as you have a back-up plan (like having a flat-bed come and deliver your Saab to a shop that can complete the work) I would say go for it, but...

Keep in mind that I have all the shop manuals and tons of tools, and Impreza is a Saab dealer, so if we say it is easy it is relative to our experience. I have done a turbo swap previously, replaced head gaskets, clutches, transmissions, valves, exhausts, brakes (rotors and pads) and numerous other engine repairs. If you have done similar than I would say this is moderately difficult job(easier than replacing a head gasket or a clutch).

I could probably do the swap in 3 hours total now that I have done it once, but it took me 6 hrs to get the old turbo out, 4 hrs to install the new one, and 3 days to wait for the $2 gasket I damaged in the process. After speaking with a few local shops (including the Saab dealer) I didn't trust that their mechanics had enough experience to do it right. The dealer told me they had never done a turbo on a 2.8T.

I also plan on adding new fuel injectors and cooler spark plugs for Stage 1, so the complete installation is probably better left to an experienced shop as these components all require meticulously clean conditions also.

Cheers,
Brian

VTuner
15th April 2009, 08:06 AM
I will be traveling to Manchester Connecticut (just outside of Hartford)this weekend (Sat, Sun, Mon) and will be bringing along all my tuning gear. If you are reasonably close and want to meet up for a demonstration (Stage 0 or Stage 1:cool:) and/or tune your Saab Aero, drop me an email. I plan on attending as many Saab conventions this summer as possible on the east coast, so there will be other opportunities later this year.

Cheers,
Brian

loplop
15th April 2009, 01:04 PM
I will be traveling to Manchester Connecticut (just outside of Hartford)this weekend (Sat, Sun, Mon) and will be bringing along all my tuning gear. If you are reasonably close and want to meet up for a demonstration (Stage 0 or Stage 1:cool:) and/or tune your Saab Aero, drop me an email. I plan on attending as many Saab conventions this summer as possible on the east coast, so there will be other opportunities later this year.

Cheers,
Brian

Try to get out to the Midwest sometime this summer, too :cool:

goSAAByourself
15th April 2009, 06:57 PM
I have gotten a few pm's of people wanting to know how this tune runs at altitude, so I figured for those of you I cant meet up with I would try to get some videos up. The tune is slightly modified for my altitude at 5,281ft.

http://www.youtube.com/v/1cEyMtNiRDk&hl=en&fs=1

Please note through first gear there is some good tire spin going on due to my more winter friendly tires, and sadly I wasnt able to push through 3rd due to an upcoming turn. I do believe with tires and a good enough striaght away I could hit 100mph in 3rd.

Rennsport1
16th April 2009, 03:12 AM
VTUNER,

Hello. So stage1 does not necessarily involve any exhaust mods ? Or did I miss something ?

Does the car sound any different in stage0 ?

Is the stock intake and filter fine for either stage ? I have added a K&N drop in air filter, does that make any difference ?

I am considering a cat back exhaust for my car before too long, is a 2.5" Simons exhaust compatable with both stages ? Would a 3" cat back be much better ?

I have a feeling that the downpipe may be more important ? Would it take the car longer to warm up in cold weather with a larger downpipe ? Just curious. We do not see much cold weather here. Cold weather meaning below 60F, lol.

I was also not clear on how the rev limiter, and if the the traction control would be affected ? Has the top speed "nanny" limiter also been 86'd ?

Thanks,
R.S.