1986 Track car build [Archive] - SaabCentral Forums

: 1986 Track car build


Donkehote
02-08-08, 10:25 PM
ok, well, ive been deciding wether to post this for a while, so here i go.
i strated my first car build, at the wee age of 18, i have decided to make a track car from my favourite car, a saab 900. for a few reasons, i have decided to build the car from scratch, frame up. i have gotten a nice, relativly rust less 1986 900 8 valve. il post pix soon. im planning to put the internals from a 1990-1993 900 SPG or Turbo in it, make a few engine mods ( like all of em) and strap up a t28GT (aka "disco potato") to it, and hopefully, make betewwn 300-350 hp at the front wheels.

well, thats the plan.

as i said, il have pix up soon.

Donkehote
02-08-08, 10:42 PM
ok, well heres the promiced pix.
i dont think i mentioned, but i started the work a few months ago, so i actually got the engine out on friday, and i should have all of everything else out by the end of the week. its going to be painted black in about 2 weeks. so im prepping everything.
ive also done some minor rust repairs (see the grey primer on the fender)
il have pix of all that up too.

ejenner
08-08-08, 12:26 PM
The key to getting a good track car is to have something you can hack the c**p out of

If the car has any problems, like wobbly engine mounts, bad cooling system, bad suspension bushes, poor springs, poor dampers, gear-selection issues, wheel-rub, loose drivers seat, bad ball joints, steering rack problems, overheating brakes... etc, etc... then it will never be fast.

Not even with 300hp.

You also need to lose weight everywhere. The lighter the car is the better it will be on the track.

Have you ever felt how weight affects the quality of the drive? I didn't notice it until I'd been driving for about 5 years and then one day I was carrying something heavy in the car and I realised how it was changing the handling... even carrying a couple of people in the car will clearly show how much difference extra weight makes to the performance.

One of the guys on another forum (BIRDIEMANGO) removes the 'bitumen' sound deadening from the inside of the cars floor. If you remove the carpet, and then the thick foam underlay there is a further layer but it is hidden by the paint. It looks like you are looking at the metal floor of the car... however... if you stab it with a screwdriver then you will find there is about 1/4-inch thick layer of tar pasted allover the inside floor of the car. Even in the 'trunk' (we call it the 'boot' over here) If you spend a day with a heatgun (or a hairdrier) you can soften the tar and scrape it out with a metal scraper. You can remove about 20 kilograms of tar from the car's interior. Don't need it on a track car. Can also save a bit of weight by removing the other interior parts like all the rear boot pannels and carpet - another 40kg.

The other stuff to do is to add some negative camber to the front wheels by adding some shims into the upper wishbones. Assuming your wheels are already well aligned to begin with then you can add about 3/4 - inch of shims into the wishbones where they attach to the inside of the engine bay. This will draw the tops of the wheels further into the wheelarches and it will improve traction and handling. You can get spare shims from a scrap c900.

Remove the front anti-roll-bar (if there is one) and see if you can get a rear anti-roll bar fitted. As your car is currently n/a it most likely won't have any anti-roll-bars (back or front) but if you can fit one at the back then that will help your handling.

Extra bracing inside the car to stiffen up the shell is also well worth having. This will ideally form part of the roll-cage as well - i.e. dual purpose, saftey and improved handling with a stiffer shell.

You can move the battery to the boot to help with weight distribuition and to allow you enough room for a big exhaust (if you think you're getting your target hp without a modified exhaust downpipe then you're in another world) The battery needs to be properly secured as I've heard horrible stories of accidents involving batteries flying through the inside of the car with battery acid spraying all over the place.

Really, the most important thing is to iron out all the cars flaws... every car has them and I doubt your car will be any different. Just make sure it can go round corners, stop and can be driven like hell without anything moving around or flapping and getting in the way.

Don't end up with a pile of parts and a car that does not work. That's no good. I've made that mistake. Try to keep the car on the road as you tune it. i.e. a rolling project.

85spgATL
08-08-08, 08:21 PM
The key to getting a good track car is to have something you can hack the c**p out of....



....a rolling project.

Awesome post! Great advice... Now I just need to find a 99!

85spgATL
08-08-08, 08:29 PM
And I cant wait to see how your car turns out Donkehote. Ive been itching to do this same thing for a while. Just havent found the correct donor...

Donkehote
08-08-08, 11:35 PM
see, ive already removed jsut about all that, and im halfway done the tar soundproofing. its a whole 56 kg so far. ive also removed most of the "comforts" like the roof liner, stereo, dashboard (for now anyway) and im going to be lightening the blower/ac/heat vacum controlled modgule thingie (i kno its nema, just cant think of it right now) by removing most bits, and replacing them with lighter versions. ive also still gotta move the battery, but ive laready moved the windshield washer pump. the shims is a real good idea, never thought of that, and ive already got a 1993 SPG sourced for all the rest of the suspension bits. (minus springs & damers, SD red kit goin in it)
il have more piks up soon, but im kinda busy working for the money for the car. like money is tight kuz im only 18, and im makin minimum wage. ::(

im also going to be removing lots of bits from everywhere, tow hooks, extra flanges, and just about everything not useful in a track car. it IS getting a cage in the future, but im just puting a simple roll bar in it right now.

i cant wait to see how it looks either, im also aimimg to keep it at least mildly street legal, maybe not street comfortable, but legal.

Donkehote
19-08-08, 10:04 PM
ok, so lots has happened in the time since i last posted. ive found (i hope)the SPG im gonna use for the engine, and most of the mechanical bits. its from my friends at beacon motors. (thanks mike) ive also decided to replace the entire heating/air control unit with some simple fans, as the car will not be used during the harsh toronto winter, and i can bundle up wen its jsut a bit chilly.
ive also gotten all the tar, and im almost on just a rolling chassis. most of the electronics have been removed, and so has quite a bit of dead weight.

the car is just about ready for the remaining rust removal, and paint. i just need some more $$$
:P

well, il post piks soon, as my camera broke recently, and i dont have the money for a new one.

dlb
20-08-08, 01:07 AM
Sounds good. I hope your able to reach your power goal.:)

ejenner
20-08-08, 04:33 AM
I've just done mine by making some ducts out of thin aluminum sheet and rivets.

http://www.red-green.co.uk/web/photos/gallery/99t16/full/heater_ducting_001.JPG

http://www.red-green.co.uk/web/photos/gallery/99t16/full/heater_ducting_002.JPG

http://www.red-green.co.uk/web/photos/gallery/99t16/full/heater_ducting_003.JPG

http://www.red-green.co.uk/web/photos/gallery/99t16/full/heater_ducting_004.JPG


http://www.red-green.co.uk/web/photos/gallery/99t16/full/engine_bay_june_003.jpg


I've not connected the tubes to the air vents yet. But that's how I'm going to control the air-flow into the cabin. I'll just use the air vent controls to turn off the incomming air if it is too cold.

ejenner
20-08-08, 04:36 AM
This is what came out. Didn't work so decided to take it out and replace it with something else. Very heavy. Nice bit of weight lost there.

http://www.red-green.co.uk/web/photos/gallery/99t16/full/heater_box.jpg


I've also got space for other things now. In the space where the heater box came out I've mounted my gearbox oil cooler pump.

http://www.red-green.co.uk/web/photos/gallery/99t16/full/gbox_oil_cooler_006.JPG

Donkehote
21-08-08, 11:42 PM
i went to see the car today, looks good, runs good, holds all its vital fluids in.
i think it should work well.

Donkehote
08-10-08, 07:24 PM
so, i havnt posted in a while, and ive gotten a lot done.
#1: Removed ALL the tar. the final weight was something ridiculous like 32 lbs

#2: Rear End Swap. i swapped the rear end to the rear end from a 1993, just for the new brakes, and POSSIBLY ABS, but im not sure if i want ABS in my race car

#3: GUTTED a 1993 900 S. me n my dad gutted a 1993 900 S, becaue it has structural rust. my dad was gonna weld it up, but once we got the engine out, the extent of the rust baffeled us, we couldnt believe it was still standing. we originally got the car for 300$ because it had a siezed tranny. well, my dad jsut happens to have a 100% rebuilt tranny in a crate, me n him rebuilt it last winter. anyway, kuz were not using the car, i got myslef LOTS of bits,2.1 throttle body, 2.1 head, Great Tranny, Brakes, really nice less than 2 month old suspension, and lots of other bits.
so now i have my first 2 trannys ready and lined up. Man, im already prepared for when it happens:cheesy:

#4: Bought my SPG parts car. its a 1988 SPG, it has quite a good engine, with the red box and all, even though i probably wont be running the APC (MBC :lol:))
it is quite a car, i would just use that, however, there is a hole in the floor that would swallow up a small African nation :roll: aswell as lots of rust ive only discovered removin the SPG kit (one fender basically fell off in my hands:o)

#5: Starting auto apprenticeship. im starting my auto apprenticeship at a shop a few of you in might know of, its a little shop called four star motorsports. :cheesy: il be able to do all the dyno runs and frame welding, and roll cage, and all that kit during my spare time; at the shop :cheesy:
heres a web link for those of you who dont know what it is
http://www.fourstarmotorsports.com/


il have pix of all this soon, probabally tomorro

Donkehote
08-10-08, 09:46 PM
im gonna be ripping the engine out of the SPG soon, and i was just wondering what you guys use for mounting on an engine stand

ejenner
09-10-08, 05:19 AM
You can just use something like this. I got this one off eBay about 5 years ago. It has a bit of trouble when the full T16 lump is loaded onto it with cylinder head and gearbox. But I don't really use it like that anymore. It is good for working on the block and maybe the head as one unit and you can use it to do work on the engine while it is out of the car.

http://www.red-green.co.uk/web/photos/gallery/images/full/block_paint_008.jpg


http://www.red-green.co.uk/web/photos/gallery/99t16/full/new_engine_011.jpg

Donkehote
13-10-08, 12:08 AM
has anyone done any other Engine Control Units.
i was looking at doing something that is able to run just about everything.
so being able to run (hopefully) a DI, boost controller, fuel injection, idle, water injection ect.

i think this might be what i want, but im not too sure.
anyone have any ideas?
am i completely mistaken, and megasquirt it really the be all end all and does all this anyway.

Donkehote
13-10-08, 12:19 AM
well, im mid way through swapping the front suspension, and im just gonna use the shims that came from the other car for now, until i get everything sorted out, and the engine in. the funny thing is the difference between the 93 parts car, and my 86. not just in bits, but the 93 is fighting me tooth and nail for every bit, whereas the 86 is coming apart like its been put together with care attention, and coppa slip.
the only part on the 86 thats given me troubble was the springs.
the passenger side one almost killed me! one of the compressors slipped, and it was very scary.

overall though, this weekend has gone well, and tomorrow im cleaning up the rear suspension bits, and getting them ready for reenforcment and paint.

ejenner
13-10-08, 04:16 PM
Megasquirt is a project in itself. Some people on here love megasquirt but I can very rarely recommend anyone gets involved with it from what I've seen. It's the same as the Microsoft v.s. Linux story... the people on the Linux side will always tell you how great Linux is for reasons A. B. C. and you will hear incredible stories of how some dusty old Linux calculator ran the whole US defence system for 40 years and didn't even need to be plugged into the electricity. Same with Megasquirt... there's no doubt it ticks a number of significant boxes... cheap, lots of features, totally diy - you're fully in control of it... right from soldering through to programming... and just like Linux geeks MS geeks will defend MS to the death in spite of everything. Personally, I wouldn't do it unless I had done everything else and wanted to do MS for fun on an open-ended timescale. I almost bought a pre-built MS system from an eBay MS specialist. But I was finding it difficult to find out which MS system I should buy and that put me off... I asked on forums and read lots of stuff on the Internet... I also exchanged around 20 emails with the eBay seller and even that simple question was impossible to answer without actually buying one and finding out that it was the wrong version... so I didn't buy. I have also heard stories... stories of some rolling-road operators refusing to work with megasquirt because they don't understand it and find it difficult to operate.

The other extreme of this situation is the products from Motec and similar organisations. I bought a Motec M800 and that really does do everything. You don't have to solder your own circuit board and it is very well supported and bullet-proof reliable. It's the sort of unit that ends up in supercars and racing cars. It will work with all popular sensors so it's pretty easy to get it installed and start setting up. The reason this is so far apart from megasquirt is because it costs an insane amount of money. In my defence I went into my car project without a clue on where I should spend money and where I shouldn't... it's true the Motec will be totally fine but it's also true that I could've got the same effect for a lot less money. There are hundreds of ECU manufacturers so you don't have to choose either Motec or Megasquirt. You could go for Wolf, DTA, Autronic, Emerald, SDS, Haltech, KMS, Alpha Turnkey, etc, etc...

This is my take on it... I'm not anti-MS but as I've got no interest in it I don't mind running it down. I'll probably have a go at it one day... but not tomorrow or next week... maybe in a few years. It's a project in itself.

I find the easiest way to remove a coil spring is to just chop it out with the angle grinder. Get it almost cut through and then kick it or hit it with a big hammer. Then the two halves of the spring can be collected from the wheelarch area. Still need compressors for installing them or if you want to keep the old spring.

Donkehote
13-10-08, 04:32 PM
so your running motec on your 99?
what do you have it running? i assume thats whats running the DI, the injectors, fuel pumps ect is there anything else?

i have actually been looking at getting a motec M400, or an M4, it all; depends on how much money i have when its time for me to get one.

ejenner
13-10-08, 05:00 PM
I would've only needed an M4 or an M400 because you don't need an M800 for a 4-cylinder engine. The reason I have the M800 is because my particular M800 was left on the shelf after some testing with Spyker and I was able to get it cheaper this way... still with a full warranty. When I started it up for the first time it was still loaded up with Spyker config files. :lol:

Looks like the M800 will run the DI pack just fine. I don't think the DI pack is much of a challange... not unless you want to copy the ion-sensing technology that trionic uses... On my 99 I'm currently using LH 2.2 and DI/APC control units. This is from the 1989 to 1993 Saab 9000. It's a pretty good system but it can't be tuned much. You can get chips for it but there's no live mapping like you would get with a more sophisticated system.

Donkehote
13-10-08, 05:06 PM
ive also been looking at another system from perfect power.
http://www.perfectpower.com/products/xms4b_group.asp
i like this one because its relatively cheap (805$ us) and it can do everything i want it to do. it also has the ability to switch maps with the flick of a switch, great for what i want. drive to the track witl the best fuel milage i can get, then flip the switch, and go full bore!
the only thing i can see wrong with it is that im just not sure if it will run the DI. it says that to run an ignition system, that i would need a Blue Fire Dual Channel Ignition Amplifier or equivalent to amplify the signal before it gets to the plug. does a DI do this already? im not sure

philb
13-10-08, 05:40 PM
I'd actually be quite dubious of that perfect power system, because I think you'd be even more on your own than if you ran megasquirt. At least theres a motley crew of c900 owners to hassle about megasquirt. Have a good look and see what you can find from users of the perfectpower system ( apart from on their website ).
If you want something a bit more plug and play than megasquirt, I think you'll need to paying quite a lot extra. The only system I know of that offers anything like the value of megasquirt is emerald.

Motec is indeed better put together, and undoubtedly more reliable. Its a proven system. The software is better too. This is what you pay the big bucks for.

I'm not sure about the other points though - megasquirt works with standard sensors. Its not recommended at all to buy a megasquirt box from ebay ( much like many other things! ) There are recommended and authorized resellers. Mapping megasquirt is much the same as mapping any other ecu. Or at least I think that because from what I can see, they work in similar ways, with the same basic equations and tables of values.
But I'm willing to stand corrected on that - I can't wait to try mapping a different ecu and see if its significantly easier overall.
Of course many rolling road operators don't want to touch megasquirt - they would much rather sell you an ecu that they can have a decent profit margin on, and one that they are used to.

Donkehote
13-10-08, 05:47 PM
i do get what your saying about megasquirt and having lots of people to draw experience from, however, i would like to be able to control boost with my ECU, and megasquirt, as great as it it, doesn't have that capability.
the other thing about the perfect power setup is that its not actually out or its been released recently (not sure which) but i dont think maany people at all have used it. it looks good and all, but i dont want to be one of the first guys to use that ECU on any car, let alone my c900.

one other option im concidering is going to a few places nearby and seeing what they suggest.

philb
13-10-08, 05:53 PM
Megasquirt can control boost, just not in closed loop. I used it like this for quite a while. You still get plenty of control over it though, you just need to work out duty cycle values for the apc solenoid, instead of simply typing in boost kpa values. But you still get to map it against throttle position and rpm. Which is a lot fun.
Megasquirt does also come with switcheable maps. I found this a lot of fun, switching boost maps, but the only reason for needing multiple fuel or spark maps is if you are running different fuels. A single map will contain the areas you need for part throttle economy driving and WOT full boost power.

If the perfect power system has closed loop boost control thats pretty cool, just not enough of a reason to buy it by itself. There must be a system out there that fits your needs, well proven but won't break the bank for you, would be interested to hear what suggestions you get from the local shops.

Donkehote
13-10-08, 06:57 PM
Megasquirt can control boost, just not in closed loop. I used it like this for quite a while. You still get plenty of control over it though, you just need to work out duty cycle values for the apc solenoid, instead of simply typing in boost kpa values. But you still get to map it against throttle position and rpm. Which is a lot fun.
Megasquirt does also come with switcheable maps. I found this a lot of fun, switching boost maps, but the only reason for needing multiple fuel or spark maps is if you are running different fuels. A single map will contain the areas you need for part throttle economy driving and WOT full boost power.

If the perfect power system has closed loop boost control thats pretty cool, just not enough of a reason to buy it by itself. There must be a system out there that fits your needs, well proven but won't break the bank for you, would be interested to hear what suggestions you get from the local shops.

thanks a lot philb this clears a lot of stuff up. i wasn't sure about ms for a while, and i couldn't find much solid fact, if you say it can control boost and switch maps, then thats great! i would much rather run MS than any other actually, just because of the experience of people like yourself on this forums.

i am actually looking at running 2 tanks. one would have to be a race spec fuel cell, and the other would be the stock tank. i would drive to the track on the stock tank, then once at the track, switch to the fuel cell, and remove the stock tank. all i would have to do would be flip a valve, and change maps and remove the tank. if i do end up running 2 tanks, im definitely gonna have to make up some quick disconnect bits for the fuel lines, to save time removing the tank.

Donkehote
13-10-08, 07:43 PM
ive done some more research, and it lokos to me that quite a lot of other brand tuners (notabley Toyota and Ford) love the EMS 8860
http://www.emsnorthamerica.com/8860.htm
it does just about everything i need an ECU to do, and its not as expensive as MoTeC stuff.

im still looking, and i still want to see what the places nearby say, but right now, if i had to choose, i would go with this.

ejenner
14-10-08, 03:35 AM
Megasquirt does do everything. But people like Phil have proved that it isn't a case of simply chucking it in the car and running with it. MS will drive a DI cassette.. so I've heard.. I think the DI is actually pretty simple to drive. It's a complete ignition system in the cassette... you just connect your ECU to the trigger wires and that's pretty much job done. It's the perfect system for any 16v Saab engine. They can fail... but none of mine have failed at this stage.

Squaab99t
14-10-08, 07:59 PM
ive done some more research, and it lokos to me that quite a lot of other brand tuners (notabley Toyota and Ford) love the EMS 8860
http://www.emsnorthamerica.com/8860.htm
it does just about everything i need an ECU to do, and its not as expensive as MoTeC stuff.

im still looking, and i still want to see what the places nearby say, but right now, if i had to choose, i would go with this.

The EMS 8860 is what I run in my 900t. It is a pretty good unit as far as the hardware and firmware go.
http://www.saabphotos.com/gallery/8860-ECU
http://www.saabphotos.com/gallery/albums/8860-ECU/CIMG1002.sized.jpg
The software and documentation have vastly improved over the past 2 years. The tech support from the Aus is fair to poor at best. They do have a forum, but if you post a question it could be days before you get a reponse, usally from another user and not the EMS tech folks.
http://www.enginemanagement.com.au/forum/

The good: Comes with built in MAP sensor, decent terminal plugs and color coded wire bundle, various wire diagrams, great datalog features, large map matrix, great selection of PWM and relay switch outputs.

The bad: Firmware updates must be done in Aus. Expensive 4 wire WB bosch 02 sensor, or you have the option to wire in the LC-1. Lack of users for help. They have features in work that have taken a very long time to incorperate (sequential fueling, post startup fuel decay). Still no launch control.
Since I bought mine they have released 4860 and 6860 having only 4 and 6 injector drivers, thus saving a few bucks.
All in all I've been happy with the system, but like all the ECUs they are pretty much blank and you must enter somewhat correct numbers to get it to run half way decent. This all takes time, dyno money, or hitting up your fellow Saaber for some numbers that may or may not be the same as youe engine and components. If it was too easy, it would be no fun.
If I do another ECU transplant I'll try DTaFast.

Saab-Daniel
15-10-08, 03:14 AM
If I do another ECU transplant I'll try DTaFast.

Not the way I would go, at least the old DTA-fast has crap software and mapping capabilities - really UNimpressed with this ECU.
Daniel.

philb
15-10-08, 03:40 AM
The good: Comes with built in MAP sensor, decent terminal plugs and color coded wire bundle, various wire diagrams, great datalog features, large map matrix, great selection of PWM and relay switch outputs.

The latter part of this is a weak point on megasquirt, theres a lot of fiddling around to get outputs working, particularly if you go to MS2.

The bad: Firmware updates must be done in Aus. Expensive 4 wire WB bosch 02 sensor, or you have the option to wire in the LC-1. Lack of users for help. They have features in work that have taken a very long time to incorperate (sequential fueling, post startup fuel decay). Still no launch control.

I wouldn't worry too much about sequential fuelling. Have read a LOT about it at this stage, and its main benefit is idle emissions and stability. Post startup fuel decay - I think this is the same thing as after start enrichment on megasquirt. Thats a surprising omission.

like all the ECUs they are pretty much blank and you must enter somewhat correct numbers to get it to run half way decent. This all takes time, dyno money, or hitting up your fellow Saaber for some numbers that may or may not be the same as youe engine and components. If it was too easy, it would be no fun.

Thanks for pointing this out. This is the same on any ecu, unless you start with an ecu that already has an OEM map in it for your engine ( eg T5 ).

Squaab99t
15-10-08, 06:19 PM
Not the way I would go, at least the old DTA-fast has crap software and mapping capabilities - really UNimpressed with this ECU.
Daniel.
Interesting, thanks for your input. Do you happen to remember which model or software rev?

Saab-Daniel
16-10-08, 01:42 AM
I worked on the E48 (which is quite old by now, I think), with the software relevant to this version: http://www.dtafast.co.uk/Downloads/PC_Software/DTAwin%20PC%20Software%20for%20E48%20and%20P8%20V3 5.4.zipProbably the new ones have better software, but the live-mapping capabilities with the E48 was not very good...
Daniel.

philb
16-10-08, 06:59 AM
You worked with any other EMS's Daniel, aside from ones you've already mentioned? The Dtafast software looks ( from the screenshots on their site ) kinda old, but lots of cool features, lots of real time graphs.

Saab-Daniel
16-10-08, 10:28 AM
Megasquirt, Dta-fast and T5-suite is the ones I have experience with so far, yes... :)
Can't believe it will be that hard to work with others now, though...
Daniel.

ejenner
16-10-08, 02:56 PM
Motec is great to work with. When I set it up on my 8v I programed one setting.. CIP (crank index position) and the car was ready to drive with ignition. Later I realised it was running against a basic ignition map and I haddn't programmed the MAP or throttle sensor... I didn't even have a throttle sensor fitted at first. That's how easy it was. So if I had wanted to just do the install in 1/2 an hour and get the car up and running to drive to work then I would've been fine.

Fitting the throttle pot... just set the low point and the high point and say which end is open and which end is closed... very easy.

Then I setup a system for injecting nitrous. Again, very easy. Just connected 1 of the wires from each solenoid valve to the ECU and then programmed them to open at a particular rpm and throttle position.. again, very easy...

But... it costs a fortune and if I was doing it again then I probably would've spent about 1/2 as much on something like an autronic. But now I'm just about to try T5... so we'll see how that goes.. will maybe never need to buy another ECU...

philb
16-10-08, 06:18 PM
Just as a comparison:
I spent months dithering over how to get the megasquirt pre-built to work with the distributor hall sensor in my T16.
I got plenty of advice but wanted to be sure. I then spent a while making sure what wires I needed to splice, as I didn't want to splice the wrong ones and wanted it to work first time.
I think this is an area where motec would be better - you would be able to hassle support if you got into trouble, and the diagrams and manuals would be better.

When I finally went to fit it to the car, I cut open the wiring harness for the ignition module, spliced the wires in and ran them into the car. This took about 30 minutes. Already had a map programmed in to mimic the saab map. Ignition ( at least when using speed density on megasquirt ) has no need for a throttle position sensor, I just plugged in a vacuum line. The car fired up first time, I adjusted the base timing with a timing light, and then drove it to work the next day.

When it did come to hooking up the tps this was very easy - leave foot off the accelerator, click "get current", floor accelerator, click "get current" again.

Hooking up nitrous - easy if your megasquirt was built to take it into account. Other than that, programmable outputs is not one of megasquirt strong points. Megasquirt1 has 1 or 2 left over after you've got your main features locked down, whereas a lot of standalone systems have 4 or more programmable outputs that are independent of the main features.

Donkehote
16-10-08, 08:23 PM
great info guys, im learning quite a bit.
right now, im either gonna use motek (if i have the money) or MS 2
i just think that re reading a bit about the EMS may be good, but it may just end up being as expensive as motek, (but without all the support and ease of use, and also easily compatable devices) when its all said and done.

Donkehote
27-11-08, 09:22 PM
after taking a small break (to fix a brake in my computer:lol: ) i have finally gotten arround to removing the engine form my 88 SPG. i got an engine stand today, and ive removed most of the fittings and such, and i will be tackeling the lift tomorrow. all i have to do is find where to bolt the stand to the block, and haul it out.

ejenner
28-11-08, 06:59 AM
There are two ways to skin that cat.

This is the better way

http://www.red-green.co.uk/web/photos/gallery/99t16/full/new_engine_003.jpg


But I've also tried this way as well... makes the engine stand sag and puts more strain on the bolts.

http://www.red-green.co.uk/web/photos/gallery/images/full/block_paint_008.jpg

Donkehote
28-11-08, 08:15 AM
i actually had a look on my 2.1 block in the garage last night, and decided that im gonna mount up the first way, ive just gotta get the bolts, and im all set!

Donkehote
01-12-08, 04:48 PM
well, after chatting with my dad, weve decided to make up some mounts like the saab style engine mount. were going to use the bolts for the engine mount, and the ones on the other end of the block, and it will involve some fancy bits to connect it to the bolting locations on the angled part of the block. it should be Waaaaaaay overbuilt, and be able to hold up a full engine and tranny with no worries.

Boosted
01-12-08, 09:59 PM
Here is something similar to what you are describing.

http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa139/njames85/EngineInstall/EngineInstall3.jpg

Here is an early prototype plate

http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa139/njames85/Engineplate.jpg

1/2" steel ought to hold it.:)

Donkehote
01-12-08, 10:12 PM
yepp, just like that

the mounts that im making are 2 separate pieces though, its a little bit easier, and a little bit cheaper.

Donkehote
16-12-08, 10:20 PM
Ok, well i FINALLY my engine out of the SPG, what a pig. almost every bolt and hose clamp gave me trouble, either breaking (if i needed it), rusting shut, (if i didn't) being totally screwed up (got my foot stuck in the rust hole in the floor) at all other points.

I finally got it, and it looks great! aside from the telltale signs of a small headgasket leak, its in great shape.

here are some pix, i hope this works
The Front side
http://photos-d.ll.facebook.com/photos-ll-snc1/v1743/5/40/615870224/n615870224_2224051_5261.jpg
The Back side
http://photos-e.ll.facebook.com/photos-ll-snc1/v1743/5/40/615870224/n615870224_2224052_5578.jpg
Right Side Mounts
http://photos-c.ll.facebook.com/photos-ll-snc1/v1743/5/40/615870224/n615870224_2224050_4972.jpg
Left Upper Mount
http://photos-b.ll.facebook.com/photos-ll-snc1/v1743/5/40/615870224/n615870224_2224049_4668.jpg
Lower Left Mount
http://photos-a.ll.facebook.com/photos-ll-snc1/v1743/5/40/615870224/n615870224_2224048_4383.jpg

Today, all i did was take off most of the bits that mount on the block (manifolds, pumps, ect) and tomorrow, i shal be removing the gearbox, head, and hopefully the internals.
il have more pix tomorro, when i get the gearbox off, and start on the actual rebuild

Donkehote
16-12-08, 11:19 PM
ok, this is just too good for timing.

Today, in toronto, it was about -2 degrees C
i just finished the engine removal at like 5:00
right now, it is snowing, and by the morning, were supposed to have 10-15 cm
if i hadnt gotten the car done by today, i wouldnt have been able to do anything almost as tomorrow, its supposed to be -10, along with most of the rest of the month.

i think that thats just awesome

85spgATL
17-12-08, 01:12 AM
Hooray! It was meant to come out.

Donkehote
27-12-08, 09:02 PM
well, today i basically got my entire engine apart.
http://photos-d.ak.fbcdn.net/photos-ak-snc1/v1611/5/40/615870224/n615870224_2280387_6379.jpg
the crank and bottom of the block. the con-rod bearings look really good, and so do the bores, and the pistons. it actually supprised me how good they look, considering they have almost 300,000 km on them.
http://photos-g.ak.fbcdn.net/photos-ak-snc1/v1611/5/40/615870224/n615870224_2280390_7156.jpg
i probably wont need to go oversized for the pistons, or undersized for the bearings.

Donkehote
27-12-08, 09:22 PM
all i have to do now, is measure bits, and decide whether i have to change sizes for anything, chances are i wont.. im probabally gonna get the SD engine rebuild kit, for the rings and the bearings, unless i have to change sizes.

ejenner
28-12-08, 05:02 AM
There's nothing 'special' about SD engine reconditioning parts. Save yourself some money and buy the parts from the regular parts place.

Parts for Saabs have some really cheap shells... not sure if the quality would be right though? tri-metal bearings are optional and not all bearings will be tri-metal. Possibly the ones from PFS wouldn't be tri-metal bearings.

Donkehote
28-12-08, 01:17 PM
There's nothing 'special' about SD engine reconditioning parts. Save yourself some money and buy the parts from the regular parts place.

Parts for Saabs have some really cheap shells... not sure if the quality would be right though? tri-metal bearings are optional and not all bearings will be tri-metal. Possibly the ones from PFS wouldn't be tri-metal bearings.


thats why i was thinking of going with the SD kit. it has all tri metal bearings, and a tri metal top ring.

ejenner
28-12-08, 01:22 PM
Well you just have to check it out. The ones from PFS might be tri-metal. But other suppliers will stock original Saab and aftermarket bearings - you don't have to go straight to SD.

Donkehote
28-12-08, 01:25 PM
il try that, yeah, because like you said, parts for saabs have some really cheap bearing caps.

the rings however seem WAAAAY overpriced.

ejenner
28-12-08, 01:36 PM
If you buy new pistons then they'll come with new piston rings. Might be worth doing if the rings are as expensive as you say? How much are you talking about? I was lucky as I picked up 8 new genuine Saab pistons at the Saab parts sale in Sweden in 2007 - they were very cheap. Will use them in future rebuilds.

Donkehote
28-12-08, 01:49 PM
i may actually go that route. just looking at them again, i thought the rings that they sell were for a single piston, not for an entire engine ;oops: they should be substantially cheaper, unless shipping works out to some ridiculous amount.

does anyone know where i should go to get new pistons? ( if i need them)

these ones might be good, but im not sure yet, i still have to measure.
i do have the part numbers, i could send a parts request to partsforsaabs and see if they can get me some.

ejenner
29-12-08, 04:31 AM
You're probably better off using eeuroparts.com for something like that. They're on your side of the pond.

Donkehote
29-12-08, 11:07 AM
surprisingly, theyre not as cheap as parts for saabs, even with international shipping.

Donkehote
18-01-09, 11:02 PM
Well, i got my bearings and rings the other day, i ended up getting the SD ones, as they worked out to be the same cost, but i was guaranteed the tri-metal, bearings, and the chromium top ring.

Ive also been looking at ECU's and MS II looks like its gonna be how im going (Daniel, you can start cheering now)
im gonna get this MSII kit http://www.diyautotune.com/catalog/megasquirtii-engine-management-system-wpcb3-assembled-unit-p-65.html
and im gonna hook up the MAP daddy for crazy boost :cheesy:

I should have all the sensors and everything by the time i get the engine back together.

On a different note, what injectors should i use, i know too big is better than too small, but what size do you guys use? also any suggestions on where to get em? i know that i can get ones off of newer saabs for cheap, so woudl the injectors foo of a different saab work? would they be big enough (say off a viggen, or a 9000 aero)

Ive also decided to be different, and get some of the bits on my engine electroplated, and others powder coated, not jsut all the same red powdercoat (some of that, and some red electroplate :lol: )

This weekend, i was at the canadian motorsports expo, and i have definatly found where im gonna do my racing, im doing solo sprint, and possibly next year (2010) GT Sprints.

I should have pix of the bits ive got, and the work ive done up tomorro.

philb
19-01-09, 07:37 AM
I use 42# lucas high-z injectors, got them from sprayitracing on ebay. Seem to work well. They would be more than enough for most c900 applications.
The diyautotune build looks good, only thing is there is no mention of including options like boost control. But I see in the review that they can customize it - so maybe its ok.

Donkehote
25-01-09, 09:28 PM
well, with my engine coming together nicely, i was thinking i should turn my attention to the suspension.

What springs and dampers would you guys suggest? are there any places where i can get race spec springs, say from a turbo cup car?

Ive heard some rumors, but i dont know if theyre true either, like would running no front roll bar be any better?, or reversing the mounts for the lower A arm for the suspension.

Thanks guys

Donkehote
01-02-09, 10:51 PM
Well, im just finishing up my engine, waiting for gaskets and all, but its coming together nicely.
Piston Transformation

From this

http://photos-e.ak.fbcdn.net/photos-ak-snc1/v2099/5/40/615870224/n615870224_2473412_1466.jpg
http://photos-f.ak.fbcdn.net/photos-ak-snc1/v2099/5/40/615870224/n615870224_2473413_1760.jpg

To this

http://photos-g.ak.fbcdn.net/photos-ak-snc1/v2099/5/40/615870224/n615870224_2473414_2035.jpg
http://photos-h.ak.fbcdn.net/photos-ak-snc1/v2099/5/40/615870224/n615870224_2473415_2329.jpg

The painted Block

http://photos-d.ak.fbcdn.net/photos-ak-snc1/v2099/5/40/615870224/n615870224_2449091_5838.jpg

Pistons and Crank in block

http://photos-g.ak.fbcdn.net/photos-ak-snc1/v2096/5/40/615870224/n615870224_2502326_1166.jpg

Painted timing chain cover and oil pump cover, just a test fit

http://photos-h.ak.fbcdn.net/photos-ak-snc1/v2096/5/40/615870224/n615870224_2502327_1456.jpg

i think it looks ok, dont u :cheesy:

Im starting to get my list of bits for mega squirt together. What parts besides this, do i need?

1) Megasquirt ECU
2) Megasquirt Harness
3) Megasquirt Boost controller (with Map Daddy for uber boost)
4) Bigger injectors (what size/ Rate in lb/hr)
5) ...

What else do i need
i think i need a trigger wheel, and an adapter for a DI, but i dont know what else. Hoping you guys will give me some help


Ive also connected with a guy in my area who used to race a C900, and he has given me some really good pointers, including the use of seriously stiff springs (750 to 900 lb/inch springs) and no front anti roll bar, and a huge anti roll bar on the rear. Hopefully i will have a seriously good track car when this is all finished :D

Donkehote
01-02-09, 10:55 PM
Oh, just so u guys know, the paint is bright red, and gloss black, it is not pink like it looks in the photos (stupid cell phone camera :roll: )

oh, and the first pic with the pistons, and the last pic in the background, The pistons are not clamped in the vice (thank god), theyre sat on some cardboard sleeves and those are just sat loose in the vice.

vr6lvr
09-02-09, 04:37 PM
DIYautotune is great, i got the same unit your looking at a couple years back with the 4bar map sensor and ran it on my vw. Its a little complicated but once your engine parameters are set tuning isnt hard. You will also want to invest in a wideband O2 sensor, http://www.innovatemotorsports.com/products/lc1.php in order to tune your upper rpms. Finding someone in your area who knows how to tune MS and using a dyno are highly recomended.
You can use the APC to control boost with megasquirt instead of buying another unit. Before you even buy the unit start reading and rereading http://www.megamanual.com/ms2/index.htm . Good luck

Donkehote
14-02-09, 07:13 PM
Ok, well, engine is 90% back together now, i just got done porting the exhaust side of the head today, it looks great. (pix soon, i promise)

Now, before i go any further, can someone explain to me how to hook Megasquirt up to a DI?

i have basically gotten everything figured out, and i will be fabbing up a bracket for the Crank position sensor this week. Im also picking up an intake air sensor, The DI, a DI connector, a 9000 cam cover, the crank position sensor and the wheel for it. Im going to mount it, like everyone else, same place as the AC pulley would be.

Before i order one, this is the wideband 02 sensor i want right?
http://www.innovatemotorsports.com/xcart/product.php?productid=16169&cat=262&page=1

Donkehote
01-03-09, 10:18 PM
well, suspension coming together nicely, just got done painting the upper control arms, and the rear axle.
I should have the lower arms done soon, and then i will have pix of all the stuff ive done, by wednesday for sure.

Donkehote
02-03-09, 11:13 PM
i have decided to swap my engine managment choice again

Money has forced me to go even further, and go for T5.

i can get all the bits for next to nothing

Donkehote
10-03-09, 06:52 PM
ok, well, heres the pix that i have. again, crappy 2.0 MP camera, and its not very good lighting, so the colors are a bit messed up.
http://photos-d.ak.fbcdn.net/photos-ak-snc1/v2633/5/40/615870224/n615870224_2705467_7141654.jpg
The Cam cover, painted and polished. oh, and yes, i do have a carpeted garage, makes cleaning up spills waay easier, jsut throw the carpet out every 2 months or so, and go find a carpet someone else is throwing out, and use that
http://photos-b.ak.fbcdn.net/photos-ak-snc1/v2633/5/40/615870224/n615870224_2705465_2431720.jpg
The engine is coming along nicely now, im going to be ataching the tranny soon enough, and then she will be all sealed up
http://photos-a.ak.fbcdn.net/photos-ak-snc1/v2633/5/40/615870224/n615870224_2705464_3597643.jpg


http://photos-e.ak.fbcdn.net/photos-ak-snc1/v2633/5/40/615870224/n615870224_2705460_4972043.jpg
These are the rims im going to be using, theyre 15x7, with a Very low offset. My borther used to sue em on his 91 900 S, with 205 rubber, and there was zero rubbing, even with a full load of people, and drumming equipment in the trunk.

Donkehote
10-03-09, 06:56 PM
and this is the bung my dad made up for me, its to fill the hole where the distributor went. its an old distributor, cut up, and welded shut, and the o ring groove made larger, to fit a new o ring
http://photos-h.ak.fbcdn.net/photos-ak-snc1/v2633/5/40/615870224/n615870224_2705463_475682.jpg

I also got the poly bushings from Parts for saabs, really nice stuff. ive got all the front suspension bits painted up, and the rear beam, and tomorrow im sandblasting the rest. i will have pix of that stuff tomorrow.

ejenner
11-03-09, 05:55 AM
I was going to suggest you go for T5. It's 'bolt-on' - It can be tuned using a laptop as well. It's free or very cheap and there is a much lower chance of driveability issues as it's an OEM system and all of the basics have already been ironed-out.

The lambda sensor you pictured will be good for monitoring exhaust gasses. T5 has it's own lambda sensor so that needs to be installed. Some people run both sensors. The T5 sensor right by the turbo opening (in the standard place) and the wideband sensor further down the exhaust about 6 or 12 inches away.

The sensor you pictured seems to be the sensor only. You will also need a controller or an interface for your PC and some software. i.e. the sensor by itself will not be enough to read the gasses as you need something to display it on.

Donkehote
12-03-09, 09:04 PM
Well, i was jsut looking arround on craigslist and kijiji, and low and behold, someone is selling a t3/t4 turbo and accessories. Its NIB, and totally perfect.

i ended up getting a BOV, an external wastegate, and a T3/T4 like this
4" inlet Compressor
0.70 A/R
75 Trim
3" 4 Bolt Outlet
0.84 A/R
60 Trim
Divided T3 entry
There are also a bunch of flanges, gaskets, seals, and mounting hardware
it was such a steal for all that stuff, only 550$
the guy paid almost 4 grand for the kit, and just ended up not using it.
http://img1.classistatic.com/cps/l/kj/09/3/10/501/r2/3512md4_20.jpeghttp://img1.classistatic.com/cps/l/kj/09/3/10/501/r6/26873k9_20.jpeg
http://img1.classistatic.com/cps/l/kj/09/3/10/501/r4/85146e3_20.jpeg
Unfortunately, i DIDDNT get the intercooler, it was already sold

ejenner
13-03-09, 06:28 AM
Looks like a pretty chunky turbo you got there. Hope there'll be enough flow to get it spinning! :cool:

Turbofrenzy
13-03-09, 08:17 AM
That's a bit of a monster, i'll be interested to see your conclusions after fitting

Donkehote
13-03-09, 05:23 PM
it is a monster, however, i got it for a steal. I am also hoping that its gonna help save my tranny, as the boost should come in higher up in the revs, and not come in all of a sudden.

the funny thing is, if you think its big for a saab, the guy i bought it from was gonna use it on a 1.6 Civic!

Turbofrenzy
13-03-09, 05:41 PM
it is a monster, however, i got it for a steal. I am also hoping that its gonna help save my tranny, as the boost should come in higher up in the revs, and not come in all of a sudden.

the funny thing is, if you think its big for a saab, the guy i bought it from was gonna use it on a 1.6 Civic!

I'm interested in changing my turbo for the same reasons as you but i've been looking at something a lot smaller.
When are you fitting this turbo?

Donkehote
13-03-09, 05:48 PM
I'm interested in changing my turbo for the same reasons as you but i've been looking at something a lot smaller.
When are you fitting this turbo?

Well, it should be going on sometime in 2 weeks or so. i have to get the car rolling first, that should be by tuesday or wednesday, then the engine and tranny will be going in on thursday-saturday, and then im gonna start making up the manifold, mounting brackets, and the exhaust, including the wastegate, and the mounts for the turbo.

il try to make up lots of drawings, and post all the numbers so that you can see exactly how i did it, as its not going in the same spot as its supposed to go.

Donkehote
25-03-09, 06:53 PM
ok, well today was spent slaving away under the hood of a 9000 Aero.
i got myself all the sensors and wiring for a t5 conversion. i also got a really nice 9000 intercooler, and this saturday im going to be going back and getting the recaro seats (both of the front ones) and the front brake calipers. im also going to be taking the Super Aeros.

Donkehote
29-03-09, 07:51 PM
well, good news!

i got my springs in, and i got a lot more done on the car
i got a 9000 intercooler, and the wiring, and 2 T5 computers.

also BAD news!
while driving my daily driver, a 1993 saab 900S, the 2.1, that me and my dad finished working on like thursday, some stupid guy in a honda civic decided to make a left turn infront of me, well, il let the pics explain
http://photos-a.ak.fbcdn.net/photos-ak-snc1/v2693/5/40/615870224/n615870224_2809600_356179.jpghttp://photos-d.ak.fbcdn.net/photos-ak-snc1/v2693/5/40/615870224/n615870224_2809603_374552.jpg

yepp, did a good number on the bodywork, alse set off the airbag. im totalyl fine, except i nwas right int eh middle of a shift, so the airbag shot my hand into the shifter, and its got a little bruise.

the funny thing is, i diddnt touch the airbag at all! i was a goot 3 or 4 inches away from it. my baseball cap stayed firmly on hy head.

however, no leaking fluids, no rubbing, diddnt even break the washer fluid resevoir.

needs a new hood, a new fender, and some alignment of the bumper mounts.
also need new lights, and grille, and bumper, and i dont think im gonan put another airbag in it, jsut disabale the system

Donkehote
16-04-09, 08:53 PM
ok, lots has gone on since my last post. i got all wrapped up in the national automotive technology competition. its a north American competition that involves students working on a car with a no start condition, aswell as some other things. anyway, me and another student from my school ended up #2 in north america.

on the car, ive done lots of work too. ive got the T5 harness all set, ive jsut gotta wire up a few more bits. ive also still gotta finish making the crank position sensor. but ive got the bracket all made, just gotta get it welded.

i also need ot get the manifold and downpipe made. it should sound really different, as ive moved the turbo over to where the battery used to sit. it wouldnt really fit anywhere else :lol:
the downpipe will be very free flowing, as it comes off the turbp already pointing to the rear of the car, and only has to bend arround the driveshaft.

the rear suspension is all in, all ive gotta do is get soem new shocks, its on old KYB units right now.
the front will be going in on saturday, as i will have the balljoints by then.

hopefully by the end of next week i wil have the engine and tranny in place.

ooopseyesharted
16-04-09, 09:02 PM
How about some more pics??
I am excited to see how this turned out.

Do you happen to have an extra set of vent covers? The spg ones?

Donkehote
16-04-09, 09:03 PM
i can probably get some, but it would be more for shipping than it would be for the parts.

il have some pix up soon (like 10-15 mins :cheesy: )

ooopseyesharted
16-04-09, 09:11 PM
get me a quote on those vents. I cant find them here

Donkehote
16-04-09, 09:12 PM
How about some more pics??
I am excited to see how this turned out.

Do you happen to have an extra set of vent covers? The spg ones?


http://photos-c.ak.fbcdn.net/photos-ak-snc1/v2510/5/40/615870224/n615870224_2915274_440709.jpghttp://photos-d.ak.fbcdn.net/photos-ak-snc1/v2510/5/40/615870224/n615870224_2915275_3357552.jpghttp://photos-d.ak.fbcdn.net/photos-ak-snc1/v2510/5/40/615870224/n615870224_2915283_4219219.jpg

il have some more tomorrow, as i have done some work on the engine since these pix, and i have yet to get pictures of the rear end

ejenner
17-04-09, 04:56 PM
I can't imagine the turbo is really big enough to need you to change it's position that radically? Maybe forward an inch further? But if you're going to DI then there's no contact with the dissy so no need to worry about that.

I plan to cut a hole in the turbine housing just behind the flange that joins the turbo to the manifold and this is where I'm going to fit my external wastegate. Where are you planning to put yours? At the moment mine is connected to an enlarged EGR port on the log manifold.

Donkehote
17-04-09, 09:16 PM
I can't imagine the turbo is really big enough to need you to change it's position that radically? Maybe forward an inch further? But if you're going to DI then there's no contact with the dissy so no need to worry about that.

I plan to cut a hole in the turbine housing just behind the flange that joins the turbo to the manifold and this is where I'm going to fit my external wastegate. Where are you planning to put yours? At the moment mine is connected to an enlarged EGR port on the log manifold.

well, because im going to be making a manifold and downpipe, i thought i may as well move the turbo over. 5 reasons for that. im quite sure that it wont fit, its litreally 50% bigger on the compressor side. it means i dont have to be super precise with my work to make it fit exactly where the old turbo was. it also means that there is no need for a nice sweeping bend on the downpipe, as its almost straight back. the final reason is so that i dont have to worry too much about intake piping being restrictive. its pointing right beneth the right headlight, so theres gonna be a big cone filter there, and then ive clocked it so that it points the pressurized air straight to the 9000 intercooler. this also lets me do what i had planned and angle the rad and intercooler back a bit, thus allowing me to run a 9k intercooler with the hoses at the top.
the wastegate is going to go right inbetween, maybe 2 inches before the turbo, and connecting a little ways down the downpipe. that way i minimize turbulance of the reentering gasses fron the wastegate, and hopefully make more power.

ejenner
18-04-09, 12:01 PM
best way to route the exhaust tube from the wastegate is to keep it separate from the main exhaust. Either run it to the back or out the side or just out of the bottom of the engine bay. You can join it back into the main exhaust system (mine is like this at the moment) but it is better not to.

gorper
18-04-09, 01:11 PM
No one on the web has ever demonstrated any real gains from a fancy manifold (one dyno report on Saabnet reported ~0hp gain). Plenty of very hi-po c900s out there have the stock manifold.

If you're keen on it, AND have a *divided inlet* turbo, you could try a NG900/9000 manifold, which is divided almost to the flange. You would need to bring the division all the way to the flange to make it truly divided, keeping the pulses separate. Many modern turbo cars use divided inlet stuff. Of course, you'd need to make it fit, too. On second thought: stick with the stock stuff.

ejenner
19-04-09, 05:31 AM
The trouble here is that you're confusing peak HP figure with performance. They are only very vaugely related.

Here are all the things that are more important than the peak HP figure

1. Power to weight ratio
2. Handling
3. Brakes
4. Steering
5. Tyres
6. Can the car be run at full wack continuiously without over heating
7. Chassis stiffness
8. Gearbox reliabilty
9. When is peak power available and how long does it take to get there. ie. torque.

On that last point. My current setup makes 185hp which is not much more than a standard T16. But a standard T16 would probably be faster at the moment. This is because my large turbo does not spool until around 4k to 4.5k - so even though my peak power is 10hp more, I would be disadvantaged by poor spool up. By the time I've got to 4.5k and the turbo is starting to spool the standard T16 would be just about getting to the end of it's range and by then it would be a spec in the distance. Installing a manifold that will keep the exhaust pulses separate and divide the output to the correct sides of the turbine is going to bring forward the spoolup time and the car will be faster as a result. Even if peak HP does not change.

Donkehote
19-04-09, 10:39 AM
The trouble here is that you're confusing peak HP figure with performance. They are only very vaugely related.

Here are all the things that are more important than the peak HP figure

1. Power to weight ratio
2. Handling
3. Brakes
4. Steering
5. Tyres
6. Can the car be run at full wack continuously without over heating
7. Chassis stiffness
8. Gearbox reliabilty
9. When is peak power available and how long does it take to get there. ie. torque.

On that last point. My current setup makes 185hp which is not much more than a standard T16. But a standard T16 would probably be faster at the moment. This is because my large turbo does not spool until around 4k to 4.5k - so even though my peak power is 10hp more, I would be disadvantaged by poor spool up. By the time I've got to 4.5k and the turbo is starting to spool the standard T16 would be just about getting to the end of it's range and by then it would be a spec in the distance. Installing a manifold that will keep the exhaust pulses separate and divide the output to the correct sides of the turbine is going to bring forward the spoolup time and the car will be faster as a result. Even if peak HP does not change.

il try to address all your points with what ive done. i love all this criticism, makes me learn. ok, here goes.
1) Power to weight ratio.
i think ive saved all the weight i can. the car is quite light, me and 2 friends can lift the front or the rear (no engine in it still, just the frame) and the rear has the wheels, axle, brakes and 1/4 tank of fuel, with little effort. it could probably be done with 2, but i dont want to hurt anyone's back. the car is on axle stands, placed right where the stock lift points are.

2) Handling
Ive done a lot fo research, and ive had a guy who used to race a c900 talk with me about everything. ive goe with stiffer front springs, and adjustable shocks on the front, and ive got adjustable on the back, but im not sure what springs to sue on the back. suggestions would be appreciated :cheesy: ive also found a stiffer rear anti roll bar, and im not fitting a front one. all of these things are to counter understeer. the other major thing i will be doing is putting a cage in this summer. it kinda addresses 2 points, the frame stiffness, and handling.

3) Brakes
ive upgraded to 9000 front brakes for now, but i will be getting either the willwood 4 piston brake kit, or the brakes off of one of those Toyota 4x4's. the rear brakes are off a 1993 c900

4) Steering
i think this ties in with handling, but i have got a job at a rally/race car prep shop, so im using all the expertise they have there to get my alignment angles right.

5) Tyres
same as last point, i am working at a race/rally car prep shop, so we deal with all the major manufacturers of race tires. i will probably be running 225.45.R15 on the front, and 205.45.R15 on the back.

6) Full whack ability.
its getting a new rad, a tranny cooler off a 95 turbo (the oil cooler) an oil cooler off the same car, a 9000 intercooler, and a bunch of gauges to read all the levels to make sure i dont toast the engine. those being oil pressure for both tranny and engine, oil temp for the same, coolant temp, boost, ect ect

7) Stiffness
roll cage going in this summer, so i dont have to worry too much about stiffness :D

8) Transmission
im going to be using a 1993 trany that me and my father rebuilt completely. new everything. when that finally goes, i hopefully will have sourced a chillcast box, and i will use that, with all the info from the gearbox thread.

9) Peak power VS torque
The big turbo ive got is a dual scroll turbo. i am making the manifold for that purpose. it should spool up slower than stock, i agree, but im hoping not too much slower. the manifold will probably be 2 manifolds actually, only joined at the turbo flange, and maybe a little at the head.
the other thing i am using for this is brake boosting. i can keep the boost up during the corners, so when i exit im on full song and rocket away.:cheesy: (i hope)

like i said before, i love this kind of thing, as it makes me think, and helps me have a faster car in the end.

ejenner
19-04-09, 06:30 PM
I was aiming at groper there. But glad you find it helpful and interesting.

Even if you don't do anything for power and concentrate all your efforts on handling and braking and thrash-ability then you are gaining performance. A car with 500hp that can't put it down is nothing compared to a car with 200hp that's been setup well. It ain't all about the dyno.

I went karting recently and I've not done that for a long time. It reminded me that having lots of horsepower is so irrelevant. It's nice to have a bit... but really having a good all round well prepared car that you can drive the nuts off is the most important thing. On the karting circuit you have no power at all so you have to use every trick in the book to try and keep the engine running fast. The rules say no gas & brake together or the guy running the track will take you off the circuit. That adds to the challange. You brake in the right place and put your foot back on the gas even if you've only just entered the corner... so the engine is already revving hard by the time you exit the corner... they accelerate so slowly. Excellent fun.

Donkehote
17-05-09, 01:54 AM
Well, i finally got the car rolling. its not got the engine in it yet, but the suspension is all sorted. everything except dampers. i just ordered the Koni adjustable shocks today, so they should be here within 2 weeks, and then my suspension will be all done! it sits really low with the 800 lb springs, theyre 9.5 inches tall, so the car sits about 1.5 inches lower than stock once the engine goes in it. at least thats my guess.
the engine is actually going in today, and my girlfriend is going to be assisting, and taking lots of pictures, so i will have some decent shots of the car finally!

i got all the fittings for T5 hooked up too, and the timing wheel and crank sensor are all finished, and fitted. the wiring is all done, i just have to hook it all up, and start it up!

there are a few things i have to do before that though, i have to mount the rad, and intercooler, i have to make up my manifold, and finally, i have to get all my seating and interior in the car. its gonna br pretty sparse, but i will probabally end up having a dash, and the gauges mounted on the top of the dash, ricer style, its not what i want, but i need a dash to race in GT sprints, so i have to have one :confused:

ejenner
17-05-09, 02:12 AM
Saab's normally have the gauges mounted in either the upper radio DIN slot or the DIN slot in the lower console. I've just taken out all my dash mounted gauges. I don't think I'll ever mount gauges on top of the dash again. Does not really work that well. They move about (some of them have adjustment) and sitting on top of the dash means it's hard to see the faces of the dials. If you can find one of the original (or a copy) Saab gauge holders then that will mount three gauges in the radio slot and they will be angled to face the driver because of the way the bracket is designed.

Donkehote
17-05-09, 08:23 AM
Saab's normally have the gauges mounted in either the upper radio DIN slot or the DIN slot in the lower console. I've just taken out all my dash mounted gauges. I don't think I'll ever mount gauges on top of the dash again. Does not really work that well. They move about (some of them have adjustment) and sitting on top of the dash means it's hard to see the faces of the dials. If you can find one of the original (or a copy) Saab gauge holders then that will mount three gauges in the radio slot and they will be angled to face the driver because of the way the bracket is designed.

sorry, i typed that wrong, i diddnt mean on the dash, i meant IN the dash :lol:
i have one of the radio gauge holders, and ive carved out the heater controls and some of my gauges fit nicely in there.

gorper
17-05-09, 02:07 PM
There was a 0 ft-lb gain in torque on that dyno'd header, too.

Sorry, forgot to note that...

ejenner
18-05-09, 05:32 AM
Nope, fair enough... but does the plot look identical from graph to graph... i.e. is the headder doing absoutely nothing at all?

The other thing is... people often make the mainfold tubes too large. That's a big mistake... a really big mistake... they assume higher output will come from large headder tubes... not the case in the slightest when talking about a turbocharged engine.

There are two eaisly available tube sizes for headders. Can't remember the dimensions but can just call them big or small tubes.

Mine are small tubes:

http://www.red-green.co.uk/web/photos/gallery/images/mid/engine_assembly_018.jpg


These ones from the relatively recent group buy came with big tubes. These headders were generally regarded as badly built. Both the 900 verson and the 9000 version.

http://img205.imageshack.us/img205/6561/1000847oh9.jpg


As I'm sure you're both well aware, turbochargers work on a pressure differential. You need the highest possible pressure on the entrance side and the lowest possible pressure on the exit side of the turbine. So headder as big as the one shown in the photos is probably going to work well for an engine pushing 500hp but not for the 250~300hp we're mostly aiming for.

Donkehote
02-06-09, 11:26 PM
Today i put new brake lines in most of the car. im changing it from a diagonal split to a front rear split. i got the battery cable in place. i also ordered some finishing parts, and some bits that i need to use once the engine goes in. like the header tubes, 30 lb fuel injectors, intake piping, and some exhaust flanges.

Donkehote
27-07-09, 10:50 PM
Well, lots done since the last post. LOTS
The engines in, the car runs, its got the exhaust, the headers, the cooling, the intercooler, the intake, the IC spray. gauges, and all!
ive got a vid of the first 2 startups, il post the link shortly, once it finishes uploading.

its LOUD!

Donkehote
27-07-09, 10:54 PM
its not finished processing yet, but for later
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=at3aqlL5S8M

dlb
28-07-09, 01:19 AM
Nice header! Did you get T5 hooked up or are you using LH 2.2? Don't forget to post a ripper video when it's all finished.:)

ejenner
28-07-09, 04:34 AM
Sounds like it's idling fast or was that you helping it with the accelerator.

Did you see my start up video?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LPQBoJOfjyQ

Mine's not running anymore. Think I'm having sensor trouble.

Donkehote
28-07-09, 06:30 AM
its runnin g T5, and its got a manifold leak, so its idling high, im getting new grommets tomorrow, its leaking from the one that goes to the brake booster, but im gonna replace all of em just to be safe.

Thats Too bad EJenner, i wish you good luck on getting it going again.

ejenner
28-07-09, 06:41 AM
Yep, think it's the cam sensor. T5 does not use one of those. Uses ion sensing instead for detecting piston positions - very clever. The cam sensor I have at the moment is on the end of an old distribuitor of a GM900 Motronic installation. The whole unit is only 5mm (at most) away from the top of the turbine housing and I actually had to cut it open and cut off half the casing before it would even get anywhere close to fitting.

Donkehote
28-07-09, 06:44 AM
sounds like a good situation for cooking some sensors

Donkehote
28-07-09, 09:25 PM
Well, another problem, the car idles really high. I havnt gotten the tach working yet, but i figure about 2 thousand RPM

basically, i was wondering what could be leaking air. Ive got an External BOV, the APC, the brake booster, the fuel pressure regulator, the boost Gauge, and the MAP sensor

Squaab99t
28-07-09, 09:53 PM
Well, another problem, the car idles really high. I havnt gotten the tach working yet, but i figure about 2 thousand RPM

basically, i was wondering what could be leaking air. Ive got an External BOV, the APC, the brake booster, the fuel pressure regulator, the boost Gauge, and the MAP sensor

Gregg has the same problem. The last time I saw him he had put a hose clamp around the hose down stream of the AIC. Squeezing it down metered the air to get the idle down. Not sure if he solved when he visited John in Colorado where they did some tuning and remapped the ECU. I'm sure you tried to close up the butterfly...
I think he mentioned in his post how I got the tach to function.

ejenner
29-07-09, 06:16 AM
Pretty sure the AIC will be fully open if not working! That would add your extra 1000 rpm to the idle.

I've been expirmenting with idle control on my car recently. I actually got it working but have some other more serious problems to attend to so for the meantime I have taken it off and blocked the ports while I deal with the other issues. My tuning guys at the rolling road suggest I don't bother at all with idle control. I'll see how it goes.

Obviously with T5 idle control can be installed and should work flawlessly as it is already fully programmed into the ECU and works on the production cars so should work on your setup as well. Check you are getting some readings at the connector and perhaps try a different idle valve if you have a spare somewhere.

Donkehote
16-08-09, 10:13 PM
OK
the car is running well now, i havnt gotten the speed sensor input in yet, so still base boost, but this is its first drive round the block

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L-_HVTBjTX8&feature=channel
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NfiRS7RFjgU&feature=channel

its FAST, liek this was with base boost, and going real easy for the break in
it handels SO well too, on really crappy tires

rawill
17-08-09, 02:25 AM
Even if you don't do anything for power and concentrate all your efforts on handling and braking and thrash-ability then you are gaining performance. A car with 500hp that can't put it down is nothing compared to a car with 200hp that's been setup well. It ain't all about the dyno.

I went karting recently and I've not done that for a long time. It reminded me that having lots of horsepower is so irrelevant. It's nice to have a bit... but really having a good all round well prepared car that you can drive the nuts off is the most important thing. On the karting circuit you have no power at all so you have to use every trick in the book to try and keep the engine running fast.

You brake in the right place and put your foot back on the gas even if you've only just entered the corner... so the engine is already revving hard by the time you exit the corner... they accelerate so slowly. Excellent fun.

So totally right. I've been involved with Kartsport for over 20 years. A good chassis setup and good mind will run rings around the "horsepower kid" most of the time. Without good chassis set up horsepower is wasted. It is the same in all motorsport. It is fun when there is a mixed class and the guys with good setups in a KT100 beat the those with higher powered engines.

rawill
17-08-09, 02:33 AM
By the way this is a great thread. A great conversation between ejeneer and donkehote. I will look forward to the end result.

ejenner
17-08-09, 06:08 AM
Good to see you've got it running. Makes me want to go out and work on mine. But I've got other things which need doing so I won't be able to.

99sven
17-08-09, 10:16 AM
I am so tickled with how well the T5 runs the classic T16 engine. It is so smooth and the power output is amazing. Drove from Boulder, CO yesterday to Salt Lake City. Over Rocky Mountain National Park (12,000 ft. pass) and through Steamboat Springs and a wonderful curvy highway to SLC. Despite having an old school laggy turbo the car boosts to 18 psi and has a smooth power band all the way past 6000k. 100 mph comes up real fast when your passing. Plus I got 33+ for gas milage across Western CO.

Got a hose clamp on the output of the AIC to keep it below 1k at idle. Really have not had a chance to take a look at it. Soon.....

Donkehote
17-08-09, 09:35 PM
I actually got the idle to work properly. i actually had a manifold leak, a serious one, the blockoff plate on the bottom of the manifold was missing (i forgot it ;oops: ) so it was getting a large amount of air in it.

it runs really well now, there is good power down low, where ive been running it for break in, like below 3k, it still goes like a rocket. it feels as quick, even low down, ad a stock turbo. i did a rough weight estimate using the tire tread area and PSI ratings, and i got about 2100 lbs. it should be a bit more, as this method doesn't quite get it right, so im estimating 2200 lbs. its quite good.

the suspension setup feels really nice and tight, it grips really well in the corners (the ones round my block) and i was suprised that its not super brutal for the ride quality. the 800 lb springs, the dual valved dampers, and the stiffer rear bar make the car have literally NO body roll, and there is very little nose dive on brakes, and all that happens on gas is the rear drops, the front doesn't really lift any. i actually did really try to get a good chassis setup, as well as a good chunk of power, and as its still being broken in, the first lapping day i have, on the 28th, i will just be concentrating on cornering, and not so much giving it the beans in the straights.

Donkehote
08-09-09, 10:02 PM
ok, ive sorted out the oil return problem. basically the turbo was trying to gravity return, but it was trying to break physics, and gravity return uphill. so i got a scavenge pump, and that's running to suck the oil from the turbo return line, and pump it back into the remade dipstick. i didn't like the fitting i had in the block already, and because i foolishly put a fitting in the inside pf the block, and one on the outside, and the one inside wont fit through any holes, i cant take it off (or risk the little aluminum piece fouling the crank, and exploding out the side of the tranny) so i made up a dipstick tube with a brass line coming from the one side, and threaded it in place. then put the line over it, so the turbo return feeds to the dipstick hole, and the stock dipstick still works.

so with the car back and running, i almost burn it down.

once i got the scavenge pump working, i decided to weld some bolts onto the side of the engine bay, behind the left front headlight, to mount the pump. Clever me simply took the welder, and welded the bolts (after disconnecting the battery) and after welding the last one, on my way up, i nicked the fuel line with the end of the rod (still glowing red). This promptly errupted in flame, and seared off some of my arm hair. luckily i got the fire extinguisher on it really quickly, and the only thing damaged was the fuel line, my ego, and the extinguisher powder all over everything.

i also got my wheel spacers mounted, and my 225/45/R15 TOYO R888 tires on, and WOAH
they stick out from the SPG arches by about an inch. and they only have about an inch of clearance from the arch to the wheel. the spacers mean i have no rubbing inside the body, but im worried if i go over too large a bump, it may cause the arch to rub on the wheel. i do have 800 LB/inch springs, its only that i don't like how close they sit

il have pix up tomorrow, and a video or too aswell.

So, the car is basically ready. jsut a few niggley bits to go, and a re fix of the tranny cooler (with a proper tranny cooler pump)

spgeebee88
09-09-09, 12:59 PM
very cool car! glad you didnt burn it down!

Donkehote
09-09-09, 06:37 PM
very cool car! glad you didn't burn it down!
Yea, im quite pleased with it myself. I love yours too! Sounds so nice on the launch control :cheesy:

im just on my way out now to go take some pictures, although i haven't cleaned the fire extinguisher powder off yet.

Squaab99t
09-09-09, 09:00 PM
Yea, im quite pleased with it myself. I love yours too! Sounds so nice on the launch control :cheesy:

im just on my way out now to go take some pictures, although i haven't cleaned the fire extinguisher powder off yet.

Clean that stuff off ASAP. Use lots of water because it is very corrosive if it is an ABC type. If it is just a BC it just makes a mess. The BC is basically baking soda.

Donkehote
09-09-09, 09:07 PM
im not sure. I got these wierd "Green" fire extinguishers. They use biodegradable stuff, and im not sure if its still corrosive, but i will clean it off tomorrow, with lots of water.

Donkehote
09-09-09, 09:45 PM
ok, pictures

First, i have the culprit for the fire, the hose that i nicked with the glowing mig wire.

its a bit bright, but you can see where it burned.

http://www.saabphotos.com/gallery/albums/album1082/IMG_0473.jpg
The Next pic is the new fuel line, not the plastic saab fuel line, aftermarket rubber fuel hose. Also, note the red line in the pic, i accidentally broke the line going to my BOV off (DOH :roll: ) but i will fix it tomorrow
http://www.saabphotos.com/gallery/albums/album1082/IMG_0469.jpg

and now im jsut gonna fire off a bunch of pix, and let you guys see what ive done.
http://www.saabphotos.com/gallery/albums/album1082/IMG_0471.jpg
http://www.saabphotos.com/gallery/albums/album1082/IMG_0472.jpg
http://www.saabphotos.com/gallery/albums/album1082/IMG_0470.jpg

Donkehote
09-09-09, 09:47 PM
http://www.saabphotos.com/gallery/albums/album1082/IMG_0468.jpghttp://www.saabphotos.com/gallery/albums/album1082/IMG_0467.jpghttp://www.saabphotos.com/gallery/albums/album1082/IMG_0466.jpghttp://www.saabphotos.com/gallery/albums/album1082/IMG_0465.jpghttp://www.saabphotos.com/gallery/albums/album1082/IMG_0464.jpghttp://www.saabphotos.com/gallery/albums/album1082/IMG_0463.jpg

Donkehote
09-09-09, 09:48 PM
http://www.saabphotos.com/gallery/albums/album1082/IMG_0462.jpg
http://www.saabphotos.com/gallery/albums/album1082/IMG_0460.jpg
http://www.saabphotos.com/gallery/albums/album1082/IMG_0461.jpghttp://www.saabphotos.com/gallery/albums/album1082/IMG_0458.jpghttp://www.saabphotos.com/gallery/albums/album1082/IMG_0457.jpghttp://www.saabphotos.com/gallery/albums/album1082/IMG_0456.jpg

Donkehote
09-09-09, 09:49 PM
http://www.saabphotos.com/gallery/albums/album1082/IMG_0455.jpg
http://www.saabphotos.com/gallery/albums/album1082/IMG_0453.jpghttp://www.saabphotos.com/gallery/albums/album1082/IMG_0452.jpghttp://www.saabphotos.com/gallery/albums/album1082/IMG_0451.jpghttp://www.saabphotos.com/gallery/albums/album1082/IMG_0450.jpghttp://www.saabphotos.com/gallery/albums/album1082/IMG_0449.jpg
http://www.saabphotos.com/gallery/albums/album1082/IMG_0454.jpg

Donkehote
09-09-09, 09:54 PM
http://www.saabphotos.com/gallery/albums/album1082/IMG_0448.jpg


Ok.

I hope thats enough pictures for you guys. for now at least.

Well, i saved 2 pix for the end, to go with a question.

With my wheel spacers (25MM), the new springs (800 lbs/inch) and the wider wheels (225mm wide) the tires sit about 1 inch outside the wheel arches. this poses a problem, i haven't had it happen yet, but at some point, the car will go over a bump large enough to make the wheel rub on the arch. what do you guys suggest? i was thinking of cutting the fenders, but im not sure where, or how, or how to replace the strength lost in the removal of the material. heres the pix
http://www.saabphotos.com/gallery/albums/album1082/IMG_0459.jpghttp://www.saabphotos.com/gallery/albums/album1082/IMG_0447.jpg

Donkehote
09-09-09, 09:57 PM
For the arches, i do have 5mm Spacers as well, but these might not give me enough clearance from the spring seat to the tire. il try them tomorrow and see. other than this, i have no rubbing issues with these wheels, as i modified the spring seats to ake more clearance, and im running these spacers, so ive got a good 30 mm clearance while the car is sitting.

spgeebee88
10-09-09, 07:18 AM
nice pictures! what turbo are you running? i love the dash board.

Donkehote
10-09-09, 06:42 PM
nice pictures! what turbo are you running? i love the dash board.
its a T3/T4 Turbo, with a 70AR on the compressor side, and a twin scroll input on the exhaust side. its inside a turbo blanket. the manifold i made is mainly just for the twin scroll, so it spools up really fast.

at 2000 rpm, in 2nd gear, if i hammer on it, by 2500 its alrerady almost pushing 8 lbs of boost, and my 4000 rpm, its over 15 pounds. as im stiull breaking the engine in, i havnt gone that hard, but it should go real well.

Donkehote
10-09-09, 06:45 PM
the dash was mainly for the weight. did you know that the other half of the dash (the half with the glove box in ti) weighs over 8 lbs! im replacing it with vinyl, so it will look like a dash, and still be light.

spgeebee88
10-09-09, 09:10 PM
cool work on the twin scroll idea for what your doing the turbo all ways needs to be really. i'll just rely on my anti-lag to get the job done :cheesy:. ya i rapped my dash in fabric after i cut the glove box out, but i just recently removed all my HVAC crap from under the dash and air bag crap what a ton of weight! now iam thinking of not running a dash at all and just mounting the gauges to the cross brace.http://i127.photobucket.com/albums/p149/redwrath16/0524091226a.jpg

spgeebee88
10-09-09, 09:11 PM
its a T3/T4 Turbo, with a 70AR on the compressor side, and a twin scroll input on the exhaust side. its inside a turbo blanket. the manifold i made is mainly just for the twin scroll, so it spools up really fast.

at 2000 rpm, in 2nd gear, if i hammer on it, by 2500 its alrerady almost pushing 8 lbs of boost, and my 4000 rpm, its over 15 pounds. as im stiull breaking the engine in, i havnt gone that hard, but it should go real well.

i can make 17psi of boost with out moving hahaha

Donkehote
10-09-09, 09:29 PM
i can make 17psi of boost with out moving hahaha

Thats anti lag for ya!

the biggest weight savings i had was with the HVAC stuff. i think altogether it was 60+ lbs.

the next weight savings was the tar soundproofing, all the tar on the floor, i took it off with a heat gun and a paint scraper and a putty knife. it all weighed 26 lbs

26 friggin pounds!

also, that door panel you have has to go, so do the electric windows, theyre about 15 lbs heavier combined (left and right window motors and actuators)

ive gotten my cars weight down to almost 2100 lbs, i figure, jsut from the weights of the stuff i removed.

Donkehote
10-09-09, 09:31 PM
oh,also, loose the airbag :cheesy:

in a crash, it wont even touch your face, the harness will keep you away from it

spgeebee88
11-09-09, 07:03 AM
Thats anti lag for ya!

the biggest weight savings i had was with the HVAC stuff. i think altogether it was 60+ lbs.

the next weight savings was the tar soundproofing, all the tar on the floor, i took it off with a heat gun and a paint scraper and a putty knife. it all weighed 26 lbs

26 friggin pounds!

also, that door panel you have has to go, so do the electric windows, theyre about 15 lbs heavier combined (left and right window motors and actuators)

ive gotten my cars weight down to almost 2100 lbs, i figure, jsut from the weights of the stuff i removed.

Ya! i couldnt believe how much that HVAC weighed. i did get rid of the air bag and i put a non-air bag steering colume in it

i did remove most of the tar i got to go at it again.

i plan on putting lexan side windows and rear window i want to cut all of the bracing out of the doors too. and the sunroof bucket.

did your car have a sunroof?

wow 2100lbs! iam trying to get the car in that range for the strip i figure the more weight i can get off the car the faster it will be in the 1/4 mile.

Donkehote
11-09-09, 08:55 PM
Ya! i couldnt believe how much that HVAC weighed. i did get rid of the air bag and i put a non-air bag steering colume in it

i did remove most of the tar i got to go at it again.

i plan on putting lexan side windows and rear window i want to cut all of the bracing out of the doors too. and the sunroof bucket.

did your car have a sunroof?

wow 2100lbs! iam trying to get the car in that range for the strip i figure the more weight i can get off the car the faster it will be in the 1/4 mile.


Well, yes and no.

it DOES have a sunroof, but its a crappy aftermarket one, its glass, and its a pop up

i didn't bother too much with the doors, as i don't have a cage yet, but when i get one fitted, i will take out basically everything from the "inner"shell, and make brackets to hold the outer shell stuff to the cage.

Donkehote
13-09-09, 06:56 PM
well, my smoking car problem hasnt gone away, its gotten better, but its still smoking.

i decided to take the turbo off to see if i could see oil in the manifold (from the engine) or if there was oil leaking from the turbo.

well, i diddnt like what i found.

my turbo is toast.

the shaft play was ridiculous. almost 1.8 of an inch in all directions, even in and out. there was scraping on the exhaust housing (where the impeller hit the housing) and the seals are basically nonexistent. there is a nice even coating of oil in the inside of the compressor housing, and there are some very alrge score marks on the shaft itself.

well, looks like i need a turbo.:x

anyone know where to get a good t3/t4 turbo for cheap? rebuilt is fine.

anyone?

spgeebee88
14-09-09, 07:20 AM
wow bummer! what kind of turbo is the blown turbo? do a Hy35!

Donkehote
15-09-09, 12:01 AM
its a T3/T4, im looking at alternatives, but because i made everything custom to fit a T3/T4, most turbos wont work. im trying my best to find a replacement quickly (track day on oct 3rd, so ive gotta move) but im having trouble sourcing parts. il look into the HY though.

spgeebee88
15-09-09, 07:11 AM
your maniflod is all ready moved and the HY would bolt right on cause its T3 flanged

Donkehote
06-10-09, 07:40 PM
Great success, then great worries.

Well, i got my turbo back last week, fitted it, and after numerous hours of running, it stopped smoking. this is a good thing.

However.

i decided to take it for a short drive. and after about 3 mins, i began to see small amounts of smoke coming from the rear. then a pedestrian told me my car was on fire it wasn't, just the smoke. (thank god i dont want a fire again) when i got back home, the car was still smoking, and still is smoking. im getting confused with this car. im very much tempted to swap back to the stock manifold, turbo and exhaust, just to see what difference it would make.

anyone have any ideas?

my turbo is oil cooled, and it seems to smoke more when i rev the car (only to 3500 rpm, as the motor is still on break in) and only smokes a very slight amount at idle. could it be my oil pressure relief valve not working, making the pressure go higher than its supposed to, therefore leaking past the turbo seals? (or being too much for my scavenge pump to handle)

what PSI is the oil pressure relief valve supposed to kick in at?

dlb
05-01-10, 02:02 AM
I'm a bit late responding to this thread, but it's possible that your turbo might require an oil restrictor (some turbos do). The oil restrictors seem to come in different sizes; be very careful not to buy one thats too restrictive, because if the restrictor is to small the bearings could overheat and seize.

The one on this page seems to be a good size.

http://www.function-7.com/products/turboparts

Turbofrenzy
05-01-10, 07:27 AM
I see your car used to be normally aspirated so it might not have the one way valve in the vacuum line to the cam cover breather (see below, the valve behind the spark plugs), that will allow boost pressure into your crankcase , hence pushing oil through the places of least resistance. Even if you have got a valve there check you can only blow through it one way, they do go wrong, i've just replaced mine with one from a T7 car.

http://www.terrimoore.co.uk/clive/turbofrenzy/plugs.jpg

Donkehote
05-01-10, 05:02 PM
I'm a bit late responding to this thread, but it's possible that your turbo might require an oil restrictor (some turbos do). The oil restrictors seem to come in different sizes; be very careful not to buy one thats too restrictive, because if the restrictor is to small the bearings could overheat and seize.

The one on this page seems to be a good size.

http://www.function-7.com/products/turboparts

I was thinking along that route, but its not the turbo. i ran the car with the turbo not plumbed into the intake or the exhaust. i pulled the plugs, used some intake cleaner, and cleaned the oil off the top of the pistons, changed the oil (it got contaminated from the cleaning) and it still smoked. The valve seals are toast, because after removing the exhaust manifold, i can see the raw oil coming from the ports.


I see your car used to be normally aspirated so it might not have the one way valve in the vacuum line to the cam cover breather (see below, the valve behind the spark plugs), that will allow boost pressure into your crankcase , hence pushing oil through the places of least resistance. Even if you have got a valve there check you can only blow through it one way, they do go wrong, i've just replaced mine with one from a T7 car.


i made that mistake, as i was using a 2.1 head, manifold, and throtttle body. i fixed it, but thats what i think blew out the seals, as it wasn't smoking until i drove it (and got 15 lbs of boost, then it began to smoke)

im almost certain its the valve seals. im going to change them as soon as i get the saab tools to do so. ive gotten ym boss to call some dealers, and theyre gonna call me back with info. does anyone know where to get the 3 tools for doing the valve spring keepers, the valve spring compressor, and the valve seal remover/installer.

While im in the head, i got some Valve Springs from sweeden, and an 85 exhaust cam, so those are going in as well.

rawill
05-01-10, 05:30 PM
i made that mistake, as i was using a 2.1 head, manifold, and throtttle body. i fixed it, but thats what i think blew out the seals, as it wasn't smoking until i drove it (and got 15 lbs of boost, then it began to smoke)

im almost certain its the valve seals.

Mmm, could be. Without the one way valve full boost pressure goes into the engine pressurizing the whole engine and putting pressure on all the seals.

If there is oil in the exhaust ports/manifold before the turbo that would be a significant sign.

Donkehote
05-01-10, 05:56 PM
Mmm, could be. Without the one way valve full boost pressure goes into the engine pressurizing the whole engine and putting pressure on all the seals.

If there is oil in the exhaust ports/manifold before the turbo that would be a significant sign.

yea, there is a LOT of oil before the turbo, and the intake pipes are dry (no oil) a compression, and ring leak test showed the rings are good, (brand new they should be) and theyre all even, the headgasket cant cause all the pistons to be the same condition (one maybe, but not all 4) so it can only be valve seals, or something catastrophic (like a crack in the head between all 4 plugs, but thats not really possible, and its not there)

Like i said, i already have the seals, and springs, and another cam to do, i just need the tools.

Tailspin
05-01-10, 08:36 PM
ive gotten my cars weight down to almost 2100 lbs, i figure, jsut from the weights of the stuff i removed.

How much do you figure a full roll cage would add to that?

Donkehote
05-01-10, 09:04 PM
How much do you figure a full roll cage would add to that?
well, anywhere from 300-500 lbs

kalsoi
04-02-10, 11:05 AM
nice project, I'm gonna post my saab 900 classic to next week
he is also a modified engine
keep up the good work

spgeebee88
11-11-10, 10:07 AM
any updates?