Project Carlsson... [Archive] - SaabCentral Forums

: Project Carlsson...


Pages : [1] 2

ejenner
19th July 2008, 04:25 PM
Hello, it's time to start back on project Carlsson. This car has already had a lot of work done on it but there has been a bit of a gap while I have spent time messing around with other cars.

The idea behind building the Carlsson was to basically end up with a comfortable, good looking, fast, rust and problem free Saab 900 Carlsson. I'm most of the way there in terms of building up a nice collection of parts but there is a lot of work needed to get the car back on the road.

A couple of things are going to change with this build. I have decided to transfer some of the parts originally meant for this car over to my other Saab.


The specification for this car is now going to be as follows.

- Resprayed shell and airflow body kit.
- Refurbished 16" aero wheels
- New original Saab sports springs
- New Blistein shocks
- Trionic 5 conversion
- Uprated turbo
- Rebuilt engine
- Ported 2.3 cylinder head with very large ports
- Rebuilt 5-speed gearbox
- Aluminum flywheel
- Lots of new trim pieces
- New windscreen rubbers

At this stage the car is just a repainted shell. But over the next few months I will build it up. Reinstall the engine and hopefully get it back on the road towards the start of the new year.

Here are the pictures of what I have so far.


Parts for Trionic 5 installation

http://www.red-green.co.uk/web/photos/gallery/images/full/trionic_001.jpg


New Saab sports springs

http://www.red-green.co.uk/web/photos/gallery/images/full/sports_springs_001.jpg



Low-quality engine pic showing flywheel and enlarged ports

http://www.red-green.co.uk/web/photos/gallery/images/full/alu_flywheel_001.jpg


Some clean-up work being done on the underside

http://www.red-green.co.uk/web/photos/gallery/images/full/wheel_arches_001.jpg


New clutch master cylinder

http://www.red-green.co.uk/web/photos/gallery/images/full/drive_shaft_tunnels_004.jpg


Doing some work


http://www.red-green.co.uk/web/photos/gallery/images/full/drive_shaft_tunnels_002.jpg


Some pictures of the engine - yes, cam timing isn't right in this photo - that will be fixed!

http://www.red-green.co.uk/web/photos/gallery/images/full/engine_assembly_007.jpg


From another angle, without the cylinder head

http://www.red-green.co.uk/web/photos/gallery/images/full/engine_assembly_005.jpg


Crankshaft after ballancing and refrubishing

http://www.red-green.co.uk/web/photos/gallery/images/full/ballanced_02.jpg

ejenner
19th July 2008, 04:32 PM
The shell from the back

http://www.red-green.co.uk/web/photos/gallery/images/full/back_april_2005.jpg


Being delivered back from the bodyshop

http://www.red-green.co.uk/web/photos/gallery/images/full/delivery_003.jpg


Work in progress

http://www.red-green.co.uk/web/photos/gallery/images/full/bodyshop_015.jpg


Cleaned and painted cylinder block.

http://www.red-green.co.uk/web/photos/gallery/images/full/block_paint_008.jpg


The engine as it was before... lots of cleaning up and resealing work now completed!

http://www.red-green.co.uk/web/photos/gallery/images/full/Engine_Out_002.jpg


This is a bit like the way it will look when it's finished. This is a 'before' picture. Some of the up close details let this car down. But from a distance it didn't look too bad.

http://www.red-green.co.uk/web/photos/gallery/images/full/16aeros002.jpg

saabchilten
19th July 2008, 05:52 PM
trionic 5? first time i've ever heard of that being in a c900. have fun with it. i'll be watching this one too. :)

ejenner
19th July 2008, 06:13 PM
Trionic 5 is cracked now. I hadn't been interested up until this point. Power to the people... :lol:

It's a very powerful computer that runs Trionic 5. A very nice upgrade.

There are two reasons why people don't really use it. Firstly, not being able to adjust any of the settings (issue now resolved!) and secondly, the crank sensor isn't compatible with the c900 cylinder block. The t5 cranks sensor normally sits inside the cylinder block. People just mount the sensor outside the block on the back of the crank pulley.

Si
19th July 2008, 06:31 PM
Have you got the trigger wheel yet? I picked one up a while back and it look like it would be reletively easy to modify, are you going to pick up another crank pulley and cover off a ekz 900 or does the 2.1 come with it?

ejenner
19th July 2008, 06:45 PM
Can't use the one from the 2.1... unless you mean to fit to my 99? Trionic 5.5 needs the 'hampster-wheel' for the crank signal.

Si
19th July 2008, 06:59 PM
see pic below:D should be easy to fit to the crank pulley, although the pre drilled holes in it ar'nt the same diameter (i've checked)
I ment use the EKZ one to convert to take it.

http://www.saabphotos.com/gallery/albums/Project900T8/PIC00088.sized.jpg (http://www.saabphotos.com/gallery/Project900T8/PIC00088?full=1)

philb
19th July 2008, 10:46 PM
motec going on the 99 then?

Furious_Gopher
20th July 2008, 12:16 AM
Wow! Beautiful car to begin with, and if all goes well, this car will be killer! :D

Are you going to add the Carlsson pin strip and signature to the painted shell?

85spgATL
20th July 2008, 01:52 AM
Jeez... I dont know what to be more jealous of... Your 99 racer or this!! Great work!

ejenner
20th July 2008, 09:32 AM
I wasn't sure if I did want the stripe back on the bodywork. They have been reproduced so it should be possible to get a set made up. But the polish and dirt get stuck around the edges and the vinyl fades to a sort of light grey colour as it gets older.

Carlsson is getting road car system - Trionic 5.5

99 is going to get race car system - Motec M800

Now it is really possible to 'use' trionic 5.5 so it would be silly to ignore it. This kit came from a 1997 900 Convertible. I'm only missing the MAP sensor now. It had already been taken before I got to the car.

philb
20th July 2008, 05:25 PM
Makes sense - keeps the carlsson nice and stock, and you can then muck about with the 99.

Saab-Daniel
20th July 2008, 05:30 PM
Hi mate!
Nice to see you progressing with your Carlsson again...
Trionic has been used on c900's before, we saw one in Sweden last year, and my friend Casper Ankersen is working on the wiring-harness for his car as well. My brother rebuilded his engine and actually managed to get the trigger-wheel sitting inside the block, eventhough there isn't enough room for it. A lot of work was involved in getting this to work, crappy phone-pictures and info in danish here: http://www.saabklubdanmark.dk/index.php?name=PNphpBB2&file=viewtopic&t=11840

On another note, Ejenner, I don't know if you know, but my 9k aero has been re-mapped by myself and Casper Ankersen, hopefully we will be able to do this in real-time instead of flashing the ECU over and over during next week! Got the gear together, now I just need a bit of time and pause in the rain to do the last work...!
So, yeah, it can be done, it takes some work, but Trionic really is a nice engine management system. Use a wideband-sensor as well, and you should be on your way ;)

Daniel

ejenner
21st July 2008, 01:39 PM
Was not really interested in Trionic when it needed to be mapped by Nordic or Maptun, etc... I suppose if you got the kit from a 2.0 Saab 9000 and then used the same turbocharger from the 9000 then you might have been able to use the standard map and standard tuning stages.

It was a question I meant to ask... can the trionic be mapped live? I guess not if you're using T5 suite... what is your method for live mapping trionic?

Si
21st July 2008, 03:36 PM
At the mo using T5 suite you flash the ECU with the different maps, once you get the hang of modding maps yourself you need to find someone who's developed a map similar to your car, then run it preferably with a WB02 and reflash the ECU with the maps slightly adjusted. I think there is a VE map so that'll need slightly adjusting to suit the different compression ratio.

ejenner
21st July 2008, 04:30 PM
don't cost too much to go to the rolling road! Shame it can't be mapped live though! At least I'll be doing that with the 99 before long!

Saab-Daniel
22nd July 2008, 06:40 AM
don't cost too much to go to the rolling road! Shame it can't be mapped live though! At least I'll be doing that with the 99 before long!

Hehe, please re-read my post then:


hopefully we will be able to do this in real-time instead of flashing the ECU over and over during next week


Since that post was on sunday, I can now pronounce that I did a bit of live-mapping of my 9k aero yesterday... :)
And YES, this is done through T5suite, Dilemma has been developing this program for quite a while, so now it can be done... :)
The ECU only keeps the live-alterations untill you remove the battery from the car, so when you're done live-mapping you still need to flash the ECU via BD32 one last time, and you will have the changes permantly in the ECU...
Join and read on ecuproject, it's all there, you need some hardware to get going + flash the ECU first to unlock the RAM, but then you're flying...

SO, know I've got 2 cars with live-mapable ECU's, and I'm loving it... :)

Trionic & Megasquirt reverend :D

Daniel.

Daniel.

ejenner
22nd July 2008, 06:52 AM
Well done Daniel...

http://www.red-green.co.uk/web/photos/saabpics/th_animated_monkey_3.gif

ejenner
27th September 2008, 04:31 PM
Some good news. I have booked some time off work this month and I am going to get this car on the road.

This burst of building is going to involve the destruction of my other red T16s and the demise of the blue 2.1 I bought recently. Both of those cars are going to be donating to the cause before going off to the scrap yard in the sky. From the blue one I will be taking all of the rust-free axels and anything else that looks like it's worth having. The red car will give up the engine, gearbox, wheels, shocks, brakes, tyres and maybe some of the interior bits.

Someone is going to have to come round to the house to fit the windscreen. When I tried to do this myself I ended up cracking the screen. So for this job I am going to have to call in a pro... it'll be the only thing I can't do myself.

By the end of October the car will be back on the road. It won't have all it's flash components on it. But when I have it back on the road I can start tarting it up a bit. The original engine and gearbox are still waiting in the garage. The idea is to get the car back on the road in a short amount of time without spending any money. I will have two red 3-door shells sitting next to eachother on the drive and I will swap over the parts and I'll make some serious progres.

So keep your eyes peeled... this thread is going to start getting exciting!

ejenner
5th October 2008, 04:54 AM
I've booked the windscreen guy for sometime next week - on a dry day... that's what he said. I suppose it's obvious when you think about it.

I got a hampster wheel from the Saab dealer as a new part. Surprisingly cheap... around £15. Nobody else really had one available... you have to break an engine to get it out and people don't generally do that.

I have decided that even though I'm going to use quite a few old parts, I will still use the new engine, refurbished head and refurbished gearbox. I will need to take the head off again. I didn't put any loctite in when I fitted the head to the block... I have discovered since then (all those years ago) that a head fitted without some loctite around the seals with the end-plates is going to leak plenty.

I'm a bit worried about the trionic conversion. But we'll see how it goes.

Does anyone know if you need to get the sensor for the trigger wheel mounted exactly in the right place or will it work at any angle on the sensor disc? I know DI/APC is fussy about that - hopefully trionic isn't - anyone confirm?

philb
5th October 2008, 01:13 PM
Do you mean what crank angle to fit the sensor at, I'd guess it does need to be at a certain position before TDC. I think the ford edis needs it to be a certain number of teeth before tdc.

Saab-Daniel
5th October 2008, 03:33 PM
It's just as fuzzy, it has to be in the exact place, otherwise how should the ECU know where TDC is?
Daniel.

ejenner
6th October 2008, 06:32 AM
I think these Saab systems don't work like some other ECU's. There's no concept of sync and ref sensors. In the case of DI/APC they just use the crank sensor and it has to be in the right position. With the trionic they need much more input so the ion-sensing function tells the ECU what cylinder is firing. I still don't know if it needed the sensor in a particular postion or not. That could make things very difficult for someone like me who is trying to mount a sensor externally. I guess I am going to have to investigate the Internet and see if anyone has written a guide for installing trionic to a c900 engine? Unless you have one Daniel? Need to get this worked out quickly as I'm planning to start the end of this project next week.

philb
6th October 2008, 06:56 AM
trionic uses the ion sense for a lot of nifty reasons, it does remove the need for a cam sensor also. Still, I'm quite confident that the shutter wheel is what tells it where TDC is - ie I don't think it can rely on ion sense for crank position. If it could then there would be no need for a crank wheel either!

ejenner
6th October 2008, 08:24 AM
don't think you'd know what the RPM is without a crank sensor.

The other worrying thing I've found with the trionic installation is all of this stuff about getting a reading from the speedo, ect...

I've heard something about turning off the road-speed input in that T5 thread over on UKSaabs but that was one of those 'I think' things... and therefore, I can't rely on that for the frantic build I have planned. Really, I should be thinking about how to implement Lucas or Bosch LH... but I really want to put it back on the road with trionic on it.

philb
6th October 2008, 08:31 AM
Well, I think it would actually be able to measure rpm from the ion sense - just count the combustion events as they happen :) Crank position is the critical thing though. You have a 9000 - maybe have a look at where the crank sensor is mounted on it?

TooMany2cvs
6th October 2008, 08:42 AM
Well, I think it would actually be able to measure rpm from the ion sense - just count the combustion events as they happen :)

Umm, maybe I'm missing something, but how will there be any "combustion events", without having some way of telling the ECU when they should happen without relying on the results of those same events?

If it did rely solely on the ion-sensing, it might run OK once it's started, but it certainly ain't going to start very easily...!

Of course there needs to be something to sense the position of "hard bits" - cam or crank - and of course the position of that must be known to the ECU. It can work around an offset - say, the sensor is at TDC or 27.3deg after BDC or wherever - but that offset must be known and factored in to the ignition timing calculations...

If it's wasted spark ignition using dual-ended coil blocks, there's no need for the ECU to know which stroke the engine's on, as each pot will fire twice - once towards the end of the compression stroke and once (harmlessly) towards the end of the exhaust stroke. So a crank sensor's fine. If the ECU does need to know which stroke, then a cam sensor's going to be needed.

philb
6th October 2008, 08:50 AM
Indeed, I was just saying that you would be able to determine rpm, not that you'd be able to get the engine started with just a DI cassete :)
While its cranking, trionic fires in wasted spark, until it detects a combustion event and then it knows what what - uses the combustion events in conjunction with the crank wheel to know what cylinder is going to fire next.

Saab-Daniel
6th October 2008, 04:30 PM
Indeed, I was just saying that you would be able to determine rpm, not that you'd be able to get the engine started with just a DI cassete :)
While its cranking, trionic fires in wasted spark, until it detects a combustion event and then it knows what what - uses the combustion events in conjunction with the crank wheel to know what cylinder is going to fire next.

Correct!
Also, you need the crank-sensor to determine rpm AND where the engine is in it's rotation, otherwise the ECU wouldn't know at what degree it should fire the plug! It's very important to get it right.
Casper Ankersen is attempting c900 trionic startup next weekend I believe, this is with the trigger-wheel mounted in the block though, and a sensor. This was made possible with a fair bit of grinding of the bottom of the piston during renovation of the engine. My brother made this rebuild possible - engine is running on lucas-fuel right now, and running very well. Trionic is the next step, everything is connected now, only few bits and bobs missing. Can report back once this is done...
Daniel.

ejenner
7th October 2008, 10:56 AM
I think you will still have the same problem if trying to retrofit the sensor into a non trionic block. You would need to know where to drill your hole for the sensor... or likewise, how to mount the disk on the crankshaft at the correct angle. I feel a big headache comming on! Does anyone know if there is a setting anywhere in T5 suite that can be changed to indicate to the ECU that the wheel is mounted at a different angle?

I sometimes forget I have a 9000 sitting outside that I can look at.

ejenner
7th October 2008, 12:42 PM
Ok - have been reading the Internet and I have a couple of answers.

There does not seem to be any real concensus so I'm not going to start spreading links around. One guy thinks the sensor should be 20 gaps away from the double-gap and another guy thinks the double-gap should be pointing at the sensor when the engine is at TDC.

Now my mind has been calculating and I think I may have an easy answer.

It looks as though the sensor disk will sandwich between the end of the crank pulley and the air-conditioning pulley. So it should be simple enough to fit the sensor disk between the crank pulley and the air-con pulley. Then to adjust I just loosen the air-con pulley and spin the disk around. That saves any messing around with slotted mounting holes or adjustable brackets. Of course, I will have to check this out and make sure it can be done. I will set it up so the disk is 100% adjustable and just change it around until it seems to be working properly.

TooMany2cvs
7th October 2008, 12:54 PM
I think you will still have the same problem if trying to retrofit the sensor into a non trionic block. You would need to know where to drill your hole for the sensor... or likewise, how to mount the disk on the crankshaft at the correct angle.

There's two alternatives, which can be combined...

- Adjust the position of the sensor
- Adjust the position of the wheel

Mounting the wheel on something like a cam vernier wheel boss would solve the second, with fine adjustment of the sensor through slotted bolt holes solving the first. Then it's a simple matter of using a timing light and trial-and-error to get it in the right place.

http://www.minimania.com/web/item/C-AJJ3327/InvDetail.cfm
http://www.minimania.com/imagesbig/c-ajj3327.jpg

ejenner
7th October 2008, 01:51 PM
That idea is so post number 31.

TooMany2cvs
7th October 2008, 02:06 PM
That idea is so post number 31.

There y'go. Agreement. Good, innit?

Saab-Daniel
7th October 2008, 05:35 PM
Ejenner, sure, it had to be VERY accurate, but my brother had an engine to look at while doing the fitting... BUT, we will know after the weekend! :)
Probably, my brother og my mate fitting this in his c900 will know!
Will return...
Daniel.

ejenner
13th October 2008, 07:31 AM
Here we go. Monday morning of the first day. I decided I am going to try and get the car water proof and that's where I'm going to start. The windscreen guy should be comming today or tomorrow to fit the screens. It seems like it's just about to rain and he can't work on the car outside if it is raining so it might have to wait for a couple of days... I really hope it's today though... then I will feel like we're making some serious progress!

The other part of getting the car waterproof is to fix all the black trim and put the windows in. I can't remember what trim actually came off this car... it might be up in the loft... but in any case I have lots of trim in the garage so I have taken the best peices I can find and started refurbishing them. I have sanded the trim smooth and repainted with satin black.. this will match the door handles and the cabin vents I already did a few years ago.

I've started looking at the tronic conversion again and I've realised I made a bit of a mistake while I was stripping stuff out of the parts car. I kept the loom for the engine bay in one peice but I've realised the engine bay loom includes a big multi-plug that should connect to another loom for things like the power and I'd imagine speedo input.. that sort of thing. I didn't pay proper attention when I was taking this out of the car... but I'm going to look at the wiring diagram and work it out.

Here's the pictures of the black trim.

http://www.red-green.co.uk/web/photos/gallery/images/full/black_trim_001.jpg

http://www.red-green.co.uk/web/photos/gallery/images/full/black_trim_002.jpg


I'm also modifying the clips for the window trim so they do not start to score the glass. I will have to look at this again when I put it all back together to make sure those ends on the clips were not put there to press the rubber against the glass? If that is the case then I will replace the missing material with some rubber so the trim still fits like it should... if this is needed!


Looking at the crank sensor now. It seems it should be pretty easy to sort something out here. The fit is almost perfect for my plan. I think I am going to use the middle of an air-con pulley to clamp the sensor in place. Even if the trionic situation does not come together well then I will at least try and make sure the sensor is mounted so I don't have any problems with that later.

http://www.red-green.co.uk/web/photos/gallery/images/full/crank_sensor_001.jpg

Saab-Daniel
13th October 2008, 09:31 AM
FYI, we got the c900 T5.5 car fired up during the weekend... Drives quite well, so that's great!
With T5suite, it provides you with quite a few nice features, to be honest... :)
Daniel

ejenner
13th October 2008, 09:44 AM
I never expected anything less Daniel. Well done. So you should know the truth about speedo input and all that sort of scary stuff? I know I can probably find out somewhere on the Internet - I think there are some wiring diagrams online somewhere...? but I would like to hear it from someone who has been close to the entire process of getting a c900 setup with Trionic and had it successfully running... so spill the beans Daniel...

BTW... the windscreen guy is here now... Live updates... :lol: There is a lot of banging and slapping going on... he is having trouble... but we all know what sort of a nightmare c900 screens are... so we'll see how he gets on. Hopefully it will work out ok! Fingers-crossed.

ejenner
13th October 2008, 03:01 PM
Windscreen guy got done quite quickly in the end. He's done some Saab's before and even owned a couple (hasn't everyone?) There was a bit of trouble with the front screen but the back screen took about 5 minutes. :cool:

http://www.red-green.co.uk/web/photos/gallery/images/full/fitting_windscreen_009.jpg

http://www.red-green.co.uk/web/photos/gallery/images/full/fitting_windscreen_008.jpg


I've been around cleaning the WD40 off the glass (that's his choice of lubricant) and it looks like a perfect job. I estimate that the rest of the glass will be in by the end of tomorrow.

I have started cleaning up a set of 16" wheels. They're really original so they have lots of crusty clear-coat and it's all pealing off. I tried sand blasting them but the sand is only making them quite clean.. I've going to homebase to get some dry sharp sand (if possible) and I'll try that and see what happens. If that does not work then I can use paint stripper to get the old paint off and I'll try this game of running the wheel on a car with the front jacked up... I've heard about this game but I don't think I've actually met anyone or seen any pictures of it being done.

KurBads
13th October 2008, 05:19 PM
whata colour ejenner? is that Talladega red? or something else?
My `vert has been repainted (poorly) from Cherry to some sort of plain red (more orang`ish) ... maybe PO tried to convert to Talladega. Thinking of my paint options.

ejenner
13th October 2008, 05:47 PM
I really should know the answer to this question but sadly not... it is the original colour of the car and it does look just as bright when you see it in the flesh. It could be Talladega but it might also be Imola... I was in the paint shop today buying some wheel paint and I was trying to use the colour chart to compare the silver I wanted with the red I have... and could I even recognise the colour on the chart... ;) those two colours are very close in tone but there are some other reds Saab used... some are more orange.. I think this is the brightest colour I can remember.

I forgot to mention the wheel paint.

I decided to go for Saab Iridum Blue.. I'm not sure if that was a good idea or not... but I've decided that I eventually want silver wheels with a hint of lilac and some pearl... with polished rims... the Iridum blue is a bit like a trial run of this idea... I think it might be a bit too blue but I did choose it from a colour chart and it looked a lot like silver in the paint shop... but with all those fumes in the paint shop... it's easy to get a bit confused... I also had it mixed with pearl... so it's a 70/30 mix of pearl and iridum blue... so this is going to be interesting.

This is a bit like the colour. I got this sample from an online Saab colour chart. In real life I think it looks a lot more like silver but we'll have to wait and see...

http://www.red-green.co.uk/web/photos/gallery/images/full/wheel_paint.jpg

philb
13th October 2008, 05:59 PM
Pretty damn sure its imola red, same colour as my old lpt:

http://www.minds.nuim.ie/%7Ephilb/saab/2/galleryData/medium-DSC00721-1.JPG

Only with no fade, and a consistent shade across panels!

And the same colour as the last 900 ever made, thats in the museum in trollhattan.

ejenner
13th October 2008, 06:03 PM
Here's my pic of the last 900 ever made. I don't know if they are the same? Hard to tell... I could probably find the colour code though.. then we'll know for sure!

http://www.red-green.co.uk/web/photos/saabpics/last_900_made.jpg

coreyeroc
14th October 2008, 01:40 PM
dude, what an amazing car. Philb, kudos to you too - you own(d) some amazing cars also.

philb
14th October 2008, 01:47 PM
I think you need to go and read the rest of the projects forum, particularly ejenners project 99, and IronJoes convertible :)

ejenner
14th October 2008, 03:37 PM
I seem to be having problems with the black trim. The paint didn't dry to the right colour so there is a delay on that bit. I have fitted the rear windows and the black weather strips... they were painted years ago and were still good so I put them straight on. I have one wiper arm mounted but the other had a chip so that needed more paint. I will fit the black trim tomorrow.

The other thing I've been doing is restoring the wheels. It's a really slow job. I've got one wheel back to bare metal and it needs about another 30 minutes work before I can put on the first coat of primer. I'm aiming to get the front of the wheels perfect and the backs I just want to seal them to stop oxidising.

I used the 900i as a lathe and the edge of the wheel looks great. I might even need to rough it up a bit... will have to think about that. The paint might not stick to the polished lip and I intend to paint the lip so I definitely want the paint to stick to it. I know people like the edge looking all shiney but I don't want to spend loads of time getting a good polished finish and I don't want to have to polish them every week.


The wheel setup on the lathe.

http://www.red-green.co.uk/web/photos/gallery/images/full/wheel_refurb_001.jpg


The lathe is running. I found 4th gear was pretty good.

http://www.red-green.co.uk/web/photos/gallery/images/full/wheel_refurb_002.jpg


Getting there... lots of elbow grease required here!

http://www.red-green.co.uk/web/photos/gallery/images/full/wheel_refurb_003.jpg


The back of this wheel was totally oxidised. I used a wire wheel to clean off the flakey paint and aluminium oxide surface. I'm not so concerned about the back of the wheel. Especially the back of the spokes. Within the first thousand miles they will be caked in brake dust.

http://www.red-green.co.uk/web/photos/gallery/images/full/wheel_refurb_004.jpg


Front of the wheel is very nearly ready for a coat of primer.

http://www.red-green.co.uk/web/photos/gallery/images/full/wheel_refurb_005.jpg


I wouldn't recommend anyone try and refurb their own wheels... it is so much grief. But I've started this so now I'm going to get it done.

ejenner
14th October 2008, 03:48 PM
There was a bit of a bonus today. The 900i seems to have some fairly big speakers installed. I'll move those into my Carlsson. For the moment the Carlsson is going to have a fairly ordinary stereo. I had planned to have an in-car-computer but I want the car running soon so I've got to cut out all the fancy stuff.

ejenner
15th October 2008, 04:06 PM
I reassembled the weather strips for the doors. For the first one I tried putting the clips onto the rubber first. This was a bit difficult when it came to joining the rubber to metal. So for the second one I put the clips on the metal first and then pushed the rubber strip into the clips. This was much easier.

http://www.red-green.co.uk/web/photos/gallery/images/full/black_trim_003.jpg


I've primed the first two wheels now. One of my pet hates... centre caps that don't fit or appear to be a different colour to the wheels. I made a special effort to remove all the paint from the edges of the caps and the slot that they fit into. I fixed the caps in the centre of the wheels so they get the same paint as the surrounding wheels.

http://www.red-green.co.uk/web/photos/gallery/images/full/wheel_refurb_006.jpg


Getting the second wheel setup ready for primer.

http://www.red-green.co.uk/web/photos/gallery/images/full/wheel_refurb_009.jpg


The 2nd wheel is primed.

http://www.red-green.co.uk/web/photos/gallery/images/full/wheel_refurb_011.jpg


The 3rd wheel is on it's way now.

http://www.red-green.co.uk/web/photos/gallery/images/full/wheel_refurb_007.jpg


This is the 4th wheel. Nothing done to this one yet. Except a bit of chemical metal on one edge of the rim. This would've been the 3rd wheel but there was a small bit of kerb rash to get rid of first. There was some kerb rash on one of the other wheels as well... but that was very easy to remove as it wasn't too much. These wheels are in pretty good physical condition but cosmetically very poor.

http://www.red-green.co.uk/web/photos/gallery/images/full/wheel_refurb_012.jpg


Here's my mixing bottle for the primer and thinners. It was the only thing I could find. The primer is quite thick and needs lots of mixing.

http://www.red-green.co.uk/web/photos/gallery/images/full/wheel_refurb_010.jpg

ejenner
15th October 2008, 04:08 PM
Also fitted the front windows and some of the trim. Was a bit dark by the time I finished so will have to add pictures tomorrow.

KurBads
16th October 2008, 05:42 AM
how did you got old paint off? sanded?

What did you do with oxidation damaged places? filler? JBweld`ed?

I`m just having super aeros that ari in need of restoration - doesn`t look bad but have that nasty oxidation started ...

ejenner
16th October 2008, 03:30 PM
The only paint I removed was the paint that was bad. The paint that wasn't damaged was roughed up so the new paint can stick. I removed the oxidisation with sandpaper and wire-wheel. On the back I mostly didn't bother as I am only doing a basic job this time. Even so, it has taken the best part of 3 days as the wheels were in bad shape. The big mistake I made with this little wheel project was not to sand out all the deep scratches. Money is a bit tight so I used the abrasives I already have in the garage and that meant going from 60-grit to 400-grit in one go... to get a better finish I could've spent a bit of time with something in between. After having spent 3-days doing the job I'm also pretty sick of it... so some small imperfections can wait until the next time. Next time will also be easier as the wheels aren't as bad now.

The wheels are made of pretty solid stuff so there was no need to fill. I just sanded until the rough areas were smooth.

Here is the edge that I filled with JB Weld. Came out nice and smooth and now I have no idea where that edge is.

http://www.red-green.co.uk/web/photos/gallery/images/full/wheel_refurb_013.jpg


Preparing the last wheel. Washing off the dirt and brake dust.

http://www.red-green.co.uk/web/photos/gallery/images/full/wheel_refurb_014.jpg


Fronts all painted now. I might... maybe, fill a couple of little scratches... but maybe not. I'm really happy with the colour!

http://www.red-green.co.uk/web/photos/gallery/images/full/wheel_refurb_015.jpg


Here's a different picture in a different light. Saab Iridium blue eh... not that blue really...

http://www.red-green.co.uk/web/photos/gallery/images/full/wheel_refurb_016.jpg


Here's a macro shot of some of the scratches. They aren't really that bad but after 3-days of sanding it would be a mistake I would avoid making next time. I'm still going to put on another coat. So I'll see if there's any way to get rid of them in between.

http://www.red-green.co.uk/web/photos/gallery/images/full/wheel_refurb_017.jpg


I fitted more of the black trim today. I tell you, if I never have to fit another piece of trim I will be really happy... sadly, I know this won't happen as I have at least one more bit to fit. It's a tricky job and if you mess it up then it makes a big difference to the appearance of the car.

ejenner
17th October 2008, 03:08 PM
There's not much evidence of any work today. So no photos. Boring. I finished the last of the pesky trim. I also filled in all the scratchs on the wheels. For the rest of the day I have been breaking the 2.1 - taking all the bits off. Hoping to get it scrapped over the weekend but I don't think that is going to happen as I'm sure those guys only work weekdays.

I started rubbing down the filler on the wheels this evening but it is really hard work so I've only got a small bit done. I need some more agressive abrasive.

VikingSpirit
18th October 2008, 08:53 AM
Emmet, try painting your wheels with high build / filler primer, the stuff's excellent at filling small scratches like you have there. Just spray the wheel, let it cure and then flat it back with 400 grit and you get a really good smooth finish.

ejenner
18th October 2008, 03:11 PM
Too late for filler primer. I've already put filler into the scratches.

Today I finished breaking the 2.1. It was a real shame to break that car. Just such an ugly duckling though. On the upside, I now have a lot of rust free parts. I couldn't take everything because my schedule had to fit in with the time that the salvage man could come and collect the shell. The bits I missed were the ABS master cylinder. The rear ABS sensors (had to cut them off) A new fuel filter. The clutch master cylinder and then all the hundreds of little fixings, trims, switches, ect, ect... shame. But 5 Saabs is 2 too many. I have to be ruthless and two are going. All of the bolts almost fell out of the car. Very easy to get everything undone.

The salvage man kindly waited for 1/2 an hour while I took off the rear axel. Didn't want to keep him waiting but I really wanted that good rear axel and he said he could wait a few minutes.

http://www.red-green.co.uk/web/photos/saabpics/scrapper.jpg


Here's the 2.1 engine. You can see the bores are noticeably larger on this engine.

http://www.red-green.co.uk/web/photos/saabpics/2-1_block.jpg


Here's some of the other parts I rescued. I've got a rust free bonnet, fairly clean slam pannel. Working air-con parts. Rust free brake calipers and new brake pads. Very little rust on the control arms and hubs. I'm saving all of these as well.

http://www.red-green.co.uk/web/photos/saabpics/2-1_parts.jpg


This is the rear axel. It's not perfect. But there is none of the heavy rust you normally see on these parts. It has not eaten the metal and some of the paint is still visible. I will clean this up and paint it before putting it on the car. I don't have time for a perfect job but it will be at least good enough to stop it rusting on an ongoing basis.

http://www.red-green.co.uk/web/photos/gallery/images/full/rear_axel_001.JPG

ejenner
19th October 2008, 04:41 PM
Today I didn't really do much. There is another Saab 900 on the driveway. This time it's the old red T16 that will be getting the chop. I'm planning on taking the Koni shocks and high performance brakes from this car. I will also take the side-skirts as the Carlsson ones are a little damaged after painting. I will also use this car as a template for building up the Carlsson. It is nearly the same as the Carlsson so I will copy everything from that car. Breaking this one won't be as bad as breaking the blue one. This car is pretty shabby. It's a shame it has to go... but I've got nowhere to store the car and it needs tax and to get tax you need to insure it. So another car goes because of the government. So much for green issues hur..!

On the hardwork side of things.. I have been painstakingly rubbing down the wheels after I attacked them with a pot of filler last week. It seems like that was a silly thing to do... I probably could've depended on the thickness of the paint that I had applied as good enough to fill the scratches. Just rubbing down would've done the trick. Anyway, I should finish that tomorrow and I will start on the chassis parts.

I've ordered a couple of bargin basement tyres from mytyres.co.uk - I still have 3 tyres from the black 8v that I saved. Two of those will be fitted to the refurbished wheels. Size 205/45 R16.

I feel I'm a little bit behind on the schedule but as there was only a vague aim to get the car finished by the end of the month then I guess it does not matter that I'm feeling like it won't get done. However, having said that... I am starting to get quite excited about getting the car on the road again... I have to go back to real work on Monday 27th of October... by then I hope to have the chassis reassembled and painted, the new engine reinstalled and to have the car at least standing on it's own wheels and looking like a car again. You never really see the millions of little details that go into getting a car back on the road when it has been dissassembled to this extent. Even though I've done 6 days flat-out (last sunday was 'hangover' day) I don't really have much to show for it. I've been wasting a lot of time doing the wheels!

Anyway - watch this space. More updates next week.

ejenner
20th October 2008, 07:22 AM
I have 2 wheels rubbed down now... what a nightmare... I still have one really bad one to rub down and one easy one to do. Getting there!

unkleG'sif
20th October 2008, 02:40 PM
emmett.... what are you doing with the aero bumpers and extentions?

i have a full kit, but its a flat front

G

ejenner
20th October 2008, 03:05 PM
Are you saying you want the 87+ bumpers from my old T16? They're wrecked. If you were desparate you could make them good with filler and paint... but they aren't in good shape. All I'm taking is the side skirts. When the Carlsson skirts were painted it has given them the ripple-effect that you sometimes see on side-skirts. I've come to the conclusion that this happens when skirts are resting flat when painted and baked... the weight of the rail on the back of the skirt causes rippling as the plastic gets soft. The T16 skirts don't have this problem so I will keep them and maybe replace the ones on the car at some point in the future.

So what have I done today? I have half-finished the 3rd wheel. I was working outside and it started raining... I was really annoyed with that job so I decided to leave it. I decided to start on the engine. I dug it out from where it was stored and then it fell-over on it's side. No damage done but that wasted about 45 minutes... when an engine falls over in some random part of the garage it can be a bit of a nightmare trying to get it upright again. I took the head off, checked the bores, put some Loctite 518 sealant at either end of the headgasket around the aluminum end plates to stop it leaking, re-fitted the head, set the valve timing and took off the aluminum flywheel... it was rubbing... we'll have to get the dremel out and cut some material off the block end plate where the flywheel is catching!

I'll add some pictures later... Off out now.

unkleG'sif
20th October 2008, 03:30 PM
actually, its just the front lower lip spoiler, 2x front bumper to arch extensions, and 2x rear bumper to arch bits


G

ejenner
21st October 2008, 05:52 AM
Are you saying you want me to save those bits for you?

philb
21st October 2008, 07:42 AM
Heres a guide on how to install T5: http://saablink.net/forum/showthread.php?t=33456

ejenner
21st October 2008, 09:56 AM
I've seen that guide. Shows it can be done. I've got some more info about mounting the trigger wheel... in case it would be useful to anyone else..

"The trigger (the sensor) should be at the first slit after the "hole" when the engine is 117 degrees Before Top Dead Center"

3.5 wheels rubbed down now. I really do not recommend anyone try and refurbish wheels unless you have loads of tools to help you do it quickly. Even when I got a set done by a mobile wheel refurbishment guy it still took him around 5 hours.. wasn't the best job though.

Saab-Daniel
21st October 2008, 10:07 AM
Sure it can be done... A friend has it running quite smooth now, with the ng900 2.0T software as a starting-point... I love T5suite... :)
Daniel.

philb
21st October 2008, 10:18 AM
Ok, just thought I'd post it in case.

ejenner
21st October 2008, 02:58 PM
That T5 conversion looks a bit 'chop shop'

unkleG'sif
21st October 2008, 03:10 PM
please emmett


Saabarella is off the road as of tonight... getting laid up for the winter. i will be pottering around in a 1.4 Mk3 Golf ;oops:

G

TooMany2cvs
21st October 2008, 03:27 PM
Saabarella is off the road as of tonight... getting laid up for the winter. i will be pottering around in a 1.4 Mk3 Golf ;oops:

I think the Geneva Convention's got something to say about that...

ejenner
21st October 2008, 03:38 PM
Over my head anyway...

Here's some pictures from the last couple of days.

This is where the flywheel was rubbing. I reckon this would be a bit dodgy if you'd fitted this flywheel in some other situation different to this and you just put the car back together without realising... then when you go to start it up... scrape, scrape.... grrrind...

http://www.red-green.co.uk/web/photos/gallery/images/full/flywheel_rubbing_001.jpg


The marks on the back of the flywheel after I turned the engine over.

http://www.red-green.co.uk/web/photos/gallery/images/full/flywheel_rubbing_002.jpg


I used the angel grinder to cut off the edge where the two parts were contacting.

http://www.red-green.co.uk/web/photos/gallery/images/full/flywheel_rubbing_003.jpg


I took the head off yesterday. I needed to check everything was ok inside and also add some sealant to the ends of the head gasket to make sure there won't be any leaks.

http://www.red-green.co.uk/web/photos/gallery/images/full/engine_assembly_013.jpg


Bores look fine. The head is back on the block now.

http://www.red-green.co.uk/web/photos/gallery/images/full/engine_assembly_014.jpg


I'm doing a cam cover. Another job that's a bit annoying.

http://www.red-green.co.uk/web/photos/gallery/images/full/Cam_cover_003.jpg


All the wheels have been rubbed down now. I will paint them tomorrow.

http://www.red-green.co.uk/web/photos/gallery/images/full/wheel_refurb_018.jpg

philb
21st October 2008, 04:08 PM
That T5 conversion looks a bit 'chop shop'

It does indeed, I was only interested in the crank sensor portion. Which seems to be rather good, since it works.

I found the description of the wiring extremely confusing. As far as I can see, he has put the t5 harness into the engine bay, and then spliced whatever is needed from the cars original loom to make it run. The wiring on my car is no picnic either, but at least its hidden. I guess the way to go with this is an adapter to the cars original loom, or run the new loom into the cabin.
What are your plans for the wiring?

Saabstudent
21st October 2008, 05:41 PM
Okay,
I'll admit it, i'm lost on this one Emmett.
Why are you refurbing the wheels again - i thought you had just done them (iridium blue?)

G

Saab-Daniel
21st October 2008, 05:43 PM
Ok, just thought I'd post it in case.

SURE, I've seen that link some time ago also, definetly worth mentioned here again!
Trionic is really quite a nice, because the driveability/idle/cruise is already 95% spot-on, saves a lot of work in tuning, warm-up and so on...
Daniel.
Daniel.

philb
21st October 2008, 05:54 PM
Yeah I have to say that if this was available when I was starting to fit megasquirt I'd be tempted. The driveability aspect is painful when trying to do it from scratch ( particularly when your fuel map is not 100% ).
I did not find the warmup section difficult.

But then I'd only be starting to learn this stuff NOW, instead of way back then :)

Whats so impressive is the reverse engineering effort. Its not like they managed to just find the maps in the code - the document describes how the whole system works. Boost control section is very interesting - it shows that the megasquirt closed cloop control could never work as its over simplistic. Saabs strategy with T5 is extremely painstaking.. basically as well as a map for boost, theres a map for the boost control equations!

ejenner
22nd October 2008, 06:12 AM
Yeah, I'm about half way through the Trionic manual. It's gotta be one of the most boring thing's I've ever read but there are some occassional nuggets of information that are worth knowing... I've forgotten them all now... but they explain things like E85 ignition settings and lots of handy stuff about how the ECU works... there's a map for coasting down (decceleration map) and part throttle and full throttle have different maps as well.

The crank sensor didn't work in that setup... it fell off, got chewed up... and he had to do the job again. I have the information I need to get the setup right but I think it will be the same as the DI crank sensor where having it slightly inaccurate won't matter. It will change things by not having it spot on (0.0 degrees correct) i.e. the system will always get the calculations wrong by the ammount that the sensor is offset by... but if you were to get it 1-degree out of alignment then the car would most likely start and run ok. Of course it would be best to get it mounted in exactly the right position...

I'm not refurbishing the wheels again... there were lots of fine scratches in the final finish that I had to get rid of... the abrasive I used was too rough to be painted straight over and I should've rubbed them down better in the first place. That's why I have had to remove most of the iridum blue and effectively paint them again. You wouldn't notice from 5 feet away... but it's the kind of thing that would be really annoying if I had left it.

ejenner
22nd October 2008, 06:20 AM
Oh yeah... plans for wiring. I'm going to do it neatly the first time. It has no wiring in the engine bay at the moment. I properly stripped it out before getting the engine bay painted. There are two looms to install. One for things like lights and windscreen wipers and then the other one is for the ECU.

philb
22nd October 2008, 06:30 AM
I know, but it seemed like he made a decent job of it second time.
I was referring to the t5suite manual, which gives far more detail on how the ecu works. http://members.home.nl/t5suite/Trionic%205.pdf
Theres little point in putting a crazily good management system on your car and then having the timing 5 degrees out. But I reckon you'll get it right :)

ejenner
22nd October 2008, 07:49 AM
You mean you thought the T5suite manual was exciting?

(yeah, that's the one I'm talking about!)

I think I will get the CPS right as well. But like I say, I'm making it adjustable... so if it is wrong then I can spin it round a touch.

philb
22nd October 2008, 07:54 AM
I skimmed through it - its interesting to look at the overall design of it, how they approached things compared to megasquirt.

ejenner
22nd October 2008, 03:02 PM
Started doing the crank sensor today.

My idea of cutting up an air-con pulley wasn't 100% on the money. Not far off though... it's about 20mm smaller diameter than planned. Saab should've made it a bit bigger.

Cutting the edges off.

http://www.red-green.co.uk/web/photos/gallery/images/full/crank_sensor_002.jpg


Smoothed off all the edges and bolted it in. At the moment I am holding it on with washers. I will weld on some little ears to replace the washers. Then we'll be cooking with gas.

http://www.red-green.co.uk/web/photos/gallery/images/full/crank_sensor_003.jpg


I am going to bolt the bracket to the timing cover where the bolts are missing. Will fit it in between the belts. I haven't got time to clean up all the brackets and bits... will have to do that later.

http://www.red-green.co.uk/web/photos/gallery/images/full/crank_sensor_004.jpg


I'm doing this little bracket to hold the sensor in place. Not finished yet. I had a look at the other solution in that saablink thread that uses an FPR bracket. Didn't like that idea. The holes in the bracket do match the position on both the timing cover or the oil pump cover but one of the holes is a bit elongated and I think the accuracy would be a problem... and for the sake of drilling a couple of holes.. might as well do it right. The folded edge of the FPR bracket does not fit under the alternator mount either.

http://www.red-green.co.uk/web/photos/gallery/images/full/crank_sensor_005.jpg


Wheels have the new top-coat now. They're looking a lot better than they did the last time. I think I'm going to put some clear-coat on them as well.

http://www.red-green.co.uk/web/photos/gallery/images/full/wheel_refurb_019.jpg

ejenner
22nd October 2008, 06:00 PM
Did a tiny bit more work on the crank sensor. Needed to get some new drills as the ones I had weren't making holes any more... just rubbing the metal a bit. First I tried returning the original set for a refund (got them 18 months ago) but they wouldn't take them back... The drills had snapped, melted or gone blunt and they were supposed to be decent bosch titanium ones... they lasted longer than all the others I've had.

The bracket is now fixed to the timing cover. I had to round off the edges a bit so it would clear the webbing on the cover.

http://www.red-green.co.uk/web/photos/gallery/images/full/crank_sensor_007.jpg


Testing to see how the position is working out. I knew I wouldn't be able to get it right first go. There are too many measurements involved to be able to get it perfect in one hit. I started by making a right-angle bracket that bolts to the timing cover... this bit is done. Next I am going to weld the ears onto the centre ring so I can bolt the disk down tightly. This needs to be done in this order so I can accurately position the sensor. At the moment the trigger wheel is only resting in position and has not been fully aligned. I will need to turn the engine over a few times to make sure the trigger wheel is centrally mounted.

http://www.red-green.co.uk/web/photos/gallery/images/full/crank_sensor_006.jpg

Alex
22nd October 2008, 06:15 PM
How firmly is the trigger wheel connected to the pulley? I hope it isn't just clamped by the washers? Its not something you want coming loose at 6000rpm.

ejenner
22nd October 2008, 06:34 PM
Ahh.. you need to get your reading glasses on. I'm going to weld some tabs onto the centre ring to finish it off. The washers are only lightly holding it in position. The idea is to get it all kinda lined up and to see what I need to do. I also attached the water pump pulley and alternator so I could check all the positions. I may weld some nuts to the tabs as well. Then I can screw some bolts through the tabs for extra clamping force. But I'll see how it goes with just the tabs first.

I've been looking at the saablink post again... what he's written and what he's drawn aren't good representations of each other... the diagrams don't match real-life or the descriptions so it's all a bit difficult to make any sense out of. I am going to try and follow the bit about getting it 117-degrees btdc from the thread over on UKS and I'll see if that matches anything on Saablink.

ejenner
23rd October 2008, 08:26 AM
Done my ears to hold down the trigger-disc. The ears by themselves are plenty strong enough to hold down the disc so bolts won't be necessary.

http://www.red-green.co.uk/web/photos/gallery/images/full/crank_sensor_008.jpg

http://www.red-green.co.uk/web/photos/gallery/images/full/crank_sensor_009.jpg

http://www.red-green.co.uk/web/photos/gallery/images/full/crank_sensor_010.jpg

philb
23rd October 2008, 09:58 AM
Great stuff. The part that I would be worried about is getting the wheel to run true on all axes. I guess you'll have adjustment.

ejenner
23rd October 2008, 10:32 AM
Tis easy. Just mount the crank position sensor quite close to the disc and check the clearance as you rotate the engine. I might wrap a couple of bits of electrical tape around the crank sensor to keep an even gap around the outside. The gap needs to be about 1mm and that does not leave much room for error.

ejenner
23rd October 2008, 10:39 AM
From the T5 Suite manual:

T5 has 62 pulses per engine rotation from which 2 teeth are missing at 117į BTDC on cylinder 1 to determine TDC.

This is quite confusing. But I think I know what I need to do. :cool:

philb
23rd October 2008, 11:25 AM
Since you have nice access to it, mark out the flywheel, find 117 degrees BTDC on cylinder one, line her up? :cheesy:

ejenner
23rd October 2008, 03:38 PM
That is more or less the way I approached it.

I printed out a degree-wheel from a handy website.

http://www.red-green.co.uk/web/photos/gallery/images/full/crank_sensor_012.jpg


Then I stuck it to the flywheel.

http://www.red-green.co.uk/web/photos/gallery/images/full/crank_sensor_013.jpg

ejenner
23rd October 2008, 03:51 PM
I put lined the sensor up so it is in the first slit after the hole. As described on the UKS website.

http://www.red-green.co.uk/web/photos/gallery/images/full/crank_sensor_015.jpg


Then I lined the flywheel up 117-degrees BTDC / equal to 243-degrees.

http://www.red-green.co.uk/web/photos/gallery/images/full/crank_sensor_016.jpg

ejenner
23rd October 2008, 04:07 PM
I finished off the crank sensor bracket. I divided the bracket into two halves so I could control the final position of the sensor accurately.

http://www.red-green.co.uk/web/photos/gallery/images/full/crank_sensor_011.jpg


I packed out the joint with some thinner bits of metal and then just dropped in some weld to join it all together. I added a cable clip to keep the cable away from the belts.

http://www.red-green.co.uk/web/photos/gallery/images/full/crank_sensor_014.jpg


Here is the fixing ring with the tabs welded on. As it has been pressing into the middle of the pulley it has started to self centre as the metal has bent inwards. This is quite handy as if it needs more adjustment then I should be able to do it fairly eaisly. Hence fitting the allen-bolts to make it easy to losen the bolts if needing to do it down the back of the engine.

http://www.red-green.co.uk/web/photos/gallery/images/full/crank_sensor_017.jpg


The crank sensor and bracket all mounted in position.

http://www.red-green.co.uk/web/photos/gallery/images/full/crank_sensor_018.jpg

ejenner
23rd October 2008, 04:14 PM
I added some more bits to the engine. Starting to look a bit more complete.

http://www.red-green.co.uk/web/photos/gallery/images/full/engine_assembly_015.jpg


I've got an elbow from lambda car. Fitted in the T5 lambda sensor.

http://www.red-green.co.uk/web/photos/gallery/images/full/t5_conversion_001.jpg

ejenner
23rd October 2008, 04:34 PM
Cheap tyres also turned up today. I think I want to put some clear coat on the wheels so they don't get wrecked too quickly. Then I'll get the tyres mounted on the wheels Saturday morning.

http://www.red-green.co.uk/web/photos/gallery/images/full/cheap_tyres.jpg

philb
23rd October 2008, 08:18 PM
Excellent work. I'd guess you are on track to fire it up on sunday evening :)

ejenner
24th October 2008, 04:39 AM
hur, you reckon...! Got to get the axels on it, wiring loom needs doing... yes.. I will try and see what I can do... but I don't think it will be done that quickly.

Saab-Daniel
24th October 2008, 05:58 AM
Good stuff E, is this the car you will take to Sweden next year? I'm looking into getting vacation already, hehe :)
Daniel.

ejenner
24th October 2008, 06:37 AM
Depends on which car is running best at the time. I did it all last minute last time... so unlikely to be any different in 2009. :lol:

philb
24th October 2008, 06:41 AM
Yeah, I remembered the wiring after I posted that. Not something you want to rush. Sweden, eh :cheesy:

ejenner
24th October 2008, 07:09 AM
You going again this time? The weather was great and there was lots of time to sit around doing nothing... I'll probably go if I can afford it... should be ok.

Just checked my sensor bracket. Seems the last minute addition of the cable clip was a bit wrong. Does exactly the oposite of what it should... i.e. puts the cable right into the belts. I will have to move the cable clip along a bit and the cable will need to go around the outside of the belts instead... oh well, only a 5-minute tweak needed.

Saab-Daniel
24th October 2008, 07:16 AM
Sweden indeed!

Phil: You're coming as well, and this time you will be sleeping at the camp-site, this is the way to go!!
I just wrote and asked the museum about the date for the festival...

E: Maybe you should bring 2 cars, the 99 on a trailer = trackday @ Kinnekulla raceway ;)

Daniel.

philb
24th October 2008, 07:28 AM
lol it seems I am going.. I will try to alright, money permitting. Not good at planning very far ahead. I have visions of a 900 pulling a trailer with z-rated tyres on there for autobahn speeds. Maybe just bring a spare gearbox instead? :)

ejenner
24th October 2008, 08:21 AM
Does not look like a track I really want to drive on. I'll stick to British tracks I think. Would be funny to call the AA from Sweden though... er where are you... Sweden... :lol:

ejenner
24th October 2008, 12:31 PM
Clear-coat on the wheels. They look really glossy in real life but in the pictures it's difficult to see how good they are. Really happy with the way they look now. If you look at the spoke furthest from the camera you can see the rim reflecting in the paint. :cool:

http://www.red-green.co.uk/web/photos/gallery/images/full/wheel_refurb_020.jpg


Dissambled the good rear axel and started painting it with hammerite. Says you can put it straight on rust after a quick wire brushing...! Will clean them up more the next time I do it. Not got time at the moment. They are looking pretty good though! I'm not painting the springs. They're just old springs to rest the link arms on for painting.

http://www.red-green.co.uk/web/photos/gallery/images/full/rear_axel_002.jpg


http://www.red-green.co.uk/web/photos/gallery/images/full/rear_axel_003.jpg

TooMany2cvs
24th October 2008, 12:53 PM
Dissambled the good rear axel and started painting it with hammerite. Says you can put it straight on rust after a quick wire brushing...!

Yep, they do. They also say it's tough and good at protecting the steel.

They lie like politicians. Hammer**ite is useless stuff.

Tomarse
24th October 2008, 03:00 PM
Yep, they do. They also say it's tough and good at protecting the steel.

They lie like politicians. Hammer**ite is useless stuff.

I'd agree. Hammerite isnt that good anymore - its much better than nothing but dont expect it to last for long. POR15 seems much better (but also costs more and is harder to get)
Hammerite is fine if you are happy to pressure wash/wire brush and redo it every 12-18 months...

ejenner
25th October 2008, 06:19 AM
yer... I'm not going to argue with any of that. I think the chassis parts on the 99 were done with hammerite and they don't look that well protected. Maybe I can wait for Matthew to research the proper solution when he does his axels and then I'll just copy that... if it works. Hammerite will do for getting the car back on the road.

Peter who is restoring the pearl white car actually put filler on the axels to get them smooth before painting!

TooMany2cvs
25th October 2008, 07:12 AM
yer... I'm not going to argue with any of that. I think the chassis parts on the 99 were done with hammerite and they don't look that well protected. Maybe I can wait for Matthew to research the proper solution when he does his axels

D'you think the hammerite'll last THAT long?

Peter who is restoring the pearl white car actually put filler on the axels to get them smooth before painting!

Misu's 'vert probably isn't a lot different, either. Strange people... <grin>

ejenner
26th October 2008, 06:00 PM
Wouldn't mind doing that kind of build some day. The Carlsson is going to be a mixture of inovation, styling, looks and comfort. It was never a full restoration project. That was never the idea with this car. If any insignificant part comes out looking really smooth and shiney then that is just a bonus rather than something that was fully intended.

Today has been fun. A nice bit of wine at lunch made the afternoon a bit more difficult than normal. With your mind buzzing but your body lagging behind it can be a bit difficult to acheive normal levels of success. Things fall over and bits get lost. Some things did get done though.


I wanted to fit the throttle position sensor for the T5 install. I've fitted one of these to a c900 throttle body before but that was for use with my programmable Motec ECU and it does not really matter how you set it up because the Motec can be tuned to match any kind of TPS setup. In the case of this T5 installation it's difficult to guess how T5 uses the TPS. I'm not sure if you can program the TPS settings in T5 suite? I looked at the setup on the 9000 and copied the postion for the sensor from there. It just stands up straight. But I don't know where the spindle is on the back of the sensor. The range on the sensor is greater than the range on the throttle... so it makes you wonder where exactly in the range the spindle should be sitting?

I decided to change the position of the notch on the spindle. I plopped some weld onto the original notch and then smoothed it off so it was totally round.

http://www.red-green.co.uk/web/photos/gallery/images/full/c900_to_t5_TB_001.JPG

http://www.red-green.co.uk/web/photos/gallery/images/full/c900_to_t5_TB_002.JPG


Then I cut a new notch. I also had to shorten the length as it does not match with the later TPS. It might be possible to use the original Lucas TPS... but I know these things aren't all the same and the two devices look totally different so decided not to try it. I went for this solution instead.

http://www.red-green.co.uk/web/photos/gallery/images/full/c900_to_t5_TB_003.JPG


The holes don't line up properly either. So I've opened out the hole on the left side and I was in the process of making a bracket for the RHS... but it got a bit frustrating when the part I was working on broke... so I left that bit for another day. It only needs a tiny little bracket here and while I was making it I ended up breaking it... after 15 minutes work I decided it could be done another day instead.

http://www.red-green.co.uk/web/photos/gallery/images/full/c900_to_t5_TB_004.JPG


Rear axel and other rear axel parts are painted now. I will most likely reassemble this gear next week.

http://www.red-green.co.uk/web/photos/gallery/images/full/rear_axel_005.jpg

http://www.red-green.co.uk/web/photos/gallery/images/full/rear_axel_006.jpg


The cable clip for the crank sensor has been relocated and redesigned to include a couple of holes for cable-ties. I saw the photos of the crank sensor on Martin of Jamsaabs car earlier today... I see he has mounted the crank sensor on the oil pump cover instead of the timing cover. His way makes a bit more sense in terms of changing belts but you need a much longer bolt for the bottom hole on the oil pump. Maybe about 15mm longer. All being well I don't think I'll be changing the belts every day on my car anyway.

http://www.red-green.co.uk/web/photos/gallery/images/full/crank_sensor_019.jpg

http://www.red-green.co.uk/web/photos/gallery/images/full/crank_sensor_020.jpg

ejenner
26th October 2008, 06:25 PM
Here's the way the engine looks now. I had to clean up the bracket for the turbo, the turbo oil feed and the turbo oil return line... all had rusted quite a lot from the heat of the turbo... all the rust was close to the turbo end of each component and at the other end things were pretty clean. Can't see the the turbo bracket or the oil return line because they're around the other side. But you can see the oil feed line running under the manifold. I have repainted them with a couple of coats of high-temp engine paint. They have to be painted after derusting as the process removes all the rust and any other rust protection. I know from doing this sort of thing previously that parts cleaned but not properly rust protected will rust very quickly. The new camera I have tends to make every photo high contrast. Totally different to the old camera I had last year.

http://www.red-green.co.uk/web/photos/gallery/images/full/engine_assembly_016.jpg


You can see where I ran out of patience with the valve cover. Chipped paint and cleaning up the stripes was getting boring. I had some clear coat left over after doing the wheels so I quickly cleaned up the manifold, covered that and there was enough to do the valve cover as well... so I just went for it and called it job done. It's not really awful but it is on the list of things that need redoing where there is more time.

http://www.red-green.co.uk/web/photos/gallery/images/full/engine_assembly_017.jpg

Tomarse
26th October 2008, 06:26 PM
Can you not just rotate the head of the sensor round 180 degrees or so and run the wire on the inside of the belts?

If one of your belts ever frays it is going to hit the wire, in addition to being a pain to change the belts.
When the belt on my 99 went, the frayed bit was slapping the bonnet and sides of the engine bay....

I'd sort it out now if i were you as it will be twice the job when you come to do it with the engine fitted!

edit - now ive properly looked at the close up pics i see that the fixing lug on the sensor is fixed to the sensor so you cant turn it without modding your bracket. Thought it was a clamp. sorry!

ejenner
26th October 2008, 06:34 PM
Legend has it this sensor should be mounted this way around... A solution to your quite reasonable concern would be to build a little metal shield for the cable to protect it from belt-slapping.

ejenner
8th November 2008, 06:31 PM
It's been a bit quiet recently. Not had much time to spend on the car. Today I had a good 5 or 6 hours and I now have the manifold and turbo bolted on.

The turbo is a TE05 that I was using on the 99. This seems to be a really good turbo. It was on the 99 boosting really hard for between 5 and 10 thousand miles but the seals are still as tight as they were when I bought this as a second-hand turbo a couple of years ago. This is only a stop-gap. It is pretty ugly and not the turbo I was intending to use. I'm using this to save time. As it is the original equipment everything fits fine and there is no need for time consuming fabrication. I can do all that at a later date. When the car is back on the road and I have a bit more time I will fit the VNT turbo.

I needed to spend quite a lot of time removing one of the studs from the wastegate housing. Two of the three studs to attach the Saab cast elbow were too short and had to be removed and replaced. I had only one spare stud so the other had to be a bolt. This is down to the 99 having a custom exhaust with a flat flange and not the standard Saab exhaust. It needed shorter studs.

Here is the manifold bolted to the engine. I think studs are normally used to make the cars eaiser to repair in Saab dealer workshops. Personally, studs annoy me so much that I use them as little as possible these days. The manifold was almost a perfect fit. I only needed to slightly elongate two of the holes in the middle flange and then it fitted. Fitting can be a problem with custom manifolds.

http://www.red-green.co.uk/web/photos/gallery/images/full/engine_assembly_018.jpg


Preparing the turbo. This is such a mucky looking turbo and it's a bit annoying to have to fit something so dirty to an otherwise pretty clean looking engine. However, time is not on my side at the moment. So I know why I'm fitting the grubby turbo - and I'm relaxed about it... kind of..

I changed the spring in the wastgate for a softer one. I also checked the alignment of the wastegate arm and I greased all the moving parts. I tested with a bicycle pump - hence the rubber hose already attached. It opens somewhere between 5 and 10 psi but the bicycle pump is already well on it's way by the time it gets to this pressure so it is difficult to get the exact opening pressure from the gauge. The wastegate moves very smoothly so as long as the solenoid works well then the trionic ECU should be able to control the boost well.

The photo also shows the exhaust elbow finally bolted down. It took a long time to drill out a broken stud and re-tap the hole. The studs are made of something pretty tough that blunts the drill-bits. Grrrr...

http://www.red-green.co.uk/web/photos/gallery/images/full/engine_assembly_019.jpg


And now bolted to the engine with the gaskets and the oil lines sealed and connected. Supporting bracket is also attached and bolted down. I cut some high-tensile bolts to hold the turbo to the exhaust manifold and installed with stainless nuts and spring washers. Not much left to do on the engine now. It is nearly time to break the other T16 but I need a dry weekend for that.

http://www.red-green.co.uk/web/photos/gallery/images/full/engine_assembly_020.jpg

nutcase
8th November 2008, 07:39 PM
Get yourself a tungsten carbide bit for drilling studs out :)

TooMany2cvs
9th November 2008, 04:28 AM
Here is the manifold bolted to the engine. I think studs are normally used to make the cars eaiser to repair in Saab dealer workshops. Personally, studs annoy me so much that I use them as little as possible these days.

I used bolts to re-attach the manifold after doing the HG in January - apart from one of 'em going awol (the most difficult to get at, I'd probably forgotten to torque it!), it's been fine since - probably 10k miles.

ejenner
9th November 2008, 04:33 AM
I guess I need a new set of drills before I get that special drill-bit... in future I'm not going to drill out broken studs with good drills... done it twice now and I think I'm learing something about studs stuck in turbine housings. Generally gone off studs now. Will try switching to bolts and see if trouble like this is avoidable. i.e. best not to snap studs in the first place.

ejenner
9th November 2008, 04:34 AM
yeah - 99 manifold is bolted as well.

nutcase
9th November 2008, 04:43 AM
Back in my allegro days, one had studs for most of the fittings to the engine and head (thermostat housing etc.) and one had bolts.

I changed the one with bolts over to studs after just about all the bolts sheared. Much prefer studs personally. Put them in with some anti-seize paste :)

ejenner
9th November 2008, 06:31 AM
That's allegro bolts though :lol:

BIRDIEMANGO
9th November 2008, 06:44 AM
Emmett,how Much Is The Manifold,and Where D'you Get Them From........?

ejenner
9th November 2008, 07:04 AM
It cost £500 - which I think is fair considering the amount of time any builder needs to spend making one of these things - it was made by the chief engineer of the Longlife exhausts chain. They can't do this at any Longlife branch as they're just franchise branches and most of the shops do everything with a simple pipe bender and a mig-welder... i.e. not this level of detailed tig-welding and design.

Might be cheaper to buy a tig welder off eBay and learn how to make manifolds - might be the way to go for the next one. There are tig welders on ebay for £200... I bet your brother has a tig welder already though? Just buy a box of mandrel bends and knock one up!

ejenner
9th November 2008, 12:49 PM
Didn't do much today. Took all the intake piping off the old T16 and will clean up and fit straight to the carlsson. The turbo on the old T16 is totally kaput. It's like someone hosed oil all over the engine bay.

I also took off a couple of rear shocks. I've heard over on UKSaabs that the Koni shocks can be significantly improved with a bit of re-valving work. The koni's only work in one direction but they can be improved to damp in both directions.

http://www.red-green.co.uk/web/photos/gallery/images/full/rear_axel_007.jpg

Alex
9th November 2008, 06:50 PM
Didn't do much today. Took all the intake piping off the old T16 and will clean up and fit straight to the carlsson. The turbo on the old T16 is totally kaput. It's like someone hosed oil all over the engine bay.

I also took off a couple of rear shocks. I've heard over on UKSaabs that the Koni shocks can be significantly improved with a bit of re-valving work. The koni's only work in one direction but they can be improved to damp in both directions.



I think you'll find that the Konis do actually provide both compression and rebound damping. If you ask nicely Koni will revalve them but that won't be cheap.

ejenner
10th November 2008, 06:06 AM
It's only adjustable in one direction so the damping ends up working in only one direction if the shock does not happen to be in sync with your choosen setting.

9004me
10th November 2008, 01:31 PM
I used the 900i as a lathe ...The lathe is running. I found 4th gear was pretty good.

Re. the wheels, seems obvious but I presume you used the lathe for rubbing the outer lip only ? I imagine it'd be too dangerous to attempt the centres .. ?
So most of the work is done by hand?
I read your advice on diy'ing these & yet I'm determined to do mine.. which are SuperAeros - far harder to work with (the curved spokes) I think .. J

ejenner
10th November 2008, 01:49 PM
It's a hard job and takes a long time. Super aeros will be much harder to do. You can hardly even see the base of the spokes where they attach to the rim. That means you'll either get away with not doing a full job on those hard to reach spokes because you can't see them or if you can see them then that could be a nightmare as you will not be able to get in there to clean them up properly.

Attaching them to the car saved a lot of time. The surfaces of the rims were so badly damaged that they would've taken ages to do by hand. But 30 minutes on the car and they were not far off polished... if I'd gone up a few more grits then I could've got to a polished finish quite eaisly.

ejenner
10th November 2008, 02:03 PM
You can put your hand onto the spokes and it won't really hurt that much. The edges of the spokes are smooth and your finger just bounces off. I did the middle area of the wheels on the car as well. It was just the spokes themselves that had to be done totally by hand.

9004me
10th November 2008, 02:09 PM
Ok that's what I was wondering about ...
Can't help imagening getting your hand caught in there though ..
Yes & on the supers actually getting paint evenly in there will not be easy either.. I can't see myself doing the job by half though .. if I started I'ds have to do it right .. there's still time to reconsider :)
Thanks ..

saabmatt
27th November 2008, 07:55 AM
Ejenner,

Now you have mounted the wheel and sensor can you rotate to TDC and work out where on the trigger wheel the sensor is?

If say itís at hole 50 after the gap then thatís all we need to know.

So would mean:
Set the engine to TDC mount the wheel and install sensor at hole 50 after the gap, you wouldnít need to set up 117 degrees etc


Also on your TPS mount, I have read somewhere that the 2.1 throttle body will allow the TPS to bolt straight on, as you have just broken a 2.1 did you try fitting it to the 2.1 body?

Cheers
Matt

ejenner
27th November 2008, 08:17 AM
trouble with the 2.1 TB is that I want to keep that with the 2.1 manifold and put it all on the 99. I thought the bore was larger on the 2.1 TB? Could be wrong?

I've not tested the CPS system so I don't know if I have it right yet. If anyone wanted to copy what I'm doing then the only thing they'll need to do is work out where 117-btdc is... not that much of a big deal.

saabmatt
27th November 2008, 08:35 AM
I think the bore is the same even the 9000, although the 9000 IAC connections are underneath but that one could be used just as easily just a bolt on with TPS, adjust hoses for AIC job done.



If we can find out where the CPS on the wheel at TDC then the relationship between wheel and TDC isnít important just the sensor to the wheel which makes it much easier.




I have AC and so donít have room on the pulley and would like mount the flywheel end, so set to TDC, line up the sensor on the wheel, now rotate the wheel to anywhere that allows space for the sensor, mount the wheel/sensor canít be wrong

ejenner
27th November 2008, 10:24 AM
I think the bolt pattern is different for 9000 TB's - I also think the bore is smaller on 9000 TB's - but these differences won't apply in all situations. Only the parts I was comparing. I had the TB from a 2.3 9000i and I was comparing it with the normal 900 Turbo TB and manifold. It was a long time ago though.

CPS wise... there are three things that need to be aligned when you position the crank sensor. The position of the sensor itself, the position of the sensor disk on the crankshaft, the position of the crankshaft. Does not matter how you do this... all three things still need to be set.

Ideas for getting this working with AC... Adjust the pully setup... perhaps use 9000 style single ribbed belt and connect power steering, AC, Alt and water on the same belt. Probably wouldn't be able to use an original 9000 belt for this though, will just have to check the specification tables at a motorspares shop until you can find one that will fit.

The other idea is to get a 9000 crankshaft for a 2.0 trionic car and fit that into a c900 block. Then mount the disc inside the block as on the trionic car. Would most likely need a fair bit of machine work if going down this route. One of Saab Daniel's friends has done something similar in Denmark (maybe his brother? - can't remember) Think it was just the normal c900 crankshaft and the CPS disc was stuck over the end and some material was removed from the crank itself.

philb
27th November 2008, 10:28 AM
Could you just use an electric motor to drive the aircon compressor instead? :)

saabmatt
27th November 2008, 10:38 AM
CPS wise... there are three things that need to be aligned when you position the crank sensor. The position of the sensor itself, the position of the sensor disk on the crankshaft, the position of the crankshaft. Does not matter how you do this... all three things still need to be set.


No that's wrong, once set at TDC and the sensor is set to the wheel in the correct TDC location then wheel can go anywhere on the crank, at this point the relationship between the sensor and the wheel cant change!

If at TDC and the sensor is the set to the TDC postion on the wheel then you can rotate the wheel maintaining the sensor postion, you can then fit the wheel to the crank anywhere!

The crank will rotate and the wheel will always be in the same position releative to the sensor when the crank returns to TDC.

saabmatt
27th November 2008, 10:50 AM
So now you have fitted it, if you return the crank to TDC where is the sensor say 25 slots before the gap etc?

All I would need to do is set to TDC set the sensor to slot 25 before the gap the disc can now go on the crank anywhere as long as the sensor is at slot 25 before the gap. see?

philb
27th November 2008, 11:22 AM
Very true, all that is needed is a photo of the sensor and wheel, with engine at TDC.

ejenner
27th November 2008, 12:37 PM
Yep - exactly what I'm saying.

1. You have to set the engine to TDC (i.e. the actual position of the crank)

2. You have to mount the sensor disc on the crankshaft in the correct position

3. You have to mount the sensor to a fixed point on the block, also in the correct position.


Household refrigiators have electric CFC compressors. Probably pretty similar to the way air-conditioning works. Or you could open up a portable air-conditioner unit.

Matthew
27th November 2008, 12:49 PM
Maybe I can wait for Matthew to research the proper solution when he does his axels and then I'll just copy that... if it works. Hammerite will do for getting the car back on the road.
D'you think the hammerite'll last THAT long?
Chortle ye not.

My plan was (is) to get all that stuff acid dipped at SPL, e-coated and then powder coated. According to SPL the e-coat is a good and tough base for the powder coat.

I'll get some test bits done first, see how they turn out. Probably do that spare axle in the garage.

saabmatt
27th November 2008, 12:51 PM
Yep - exactly what I'm saying.

1. You have to set the engine to TDC (i.e. the actual position of the crank)

2. You have to mount the sensor disc on the crankshaft in the correct position

3. You have to mount the sensor to a fixed point on the block, also in the correct position.


Household refrigiators have electric CFC compressors. Probably pretty similar to the way air-conditioning works. Or you could open up a portable air-conditioner unit.

No you don't!

1, Yes you need to set to TDC
2, No you don't need to mount the disc in any set place
3, No you don't need to mount at a fixed place on the block (your sensor is at the back of the engine stock mount is at the front!)

What you need to get right is sensor to wheel

ejenner
27th November 2008, 12:56 PM
My sensor is mounted on the other side of the disc. But then it is rotated 180-degrees to account for this.

If you are saying it does not matter what angle the disc is mounted at then you are wrong. I am saying this does matter. Point number 2 on the list above. The disc has two missing teeth. If you do not mount the disc at the correct angle then these missing teeth will not hit the sensor at the correct time.

TooMany2cvs
27th November 2008, 01:01 PM
My sensor is mounted on the other side of the disc. But then it is rotated 180-degrees to account for this.

If you are saying it does not matter what angle the disc is mounted at then you are wrong. I am saying this does matter. Point number 2 on the list above. The disc has two missing teeth. If you do not mount the disc at the correct angle then these missing teeth will not hit the sensor at the correct time.

I think you're both slightly vehemently agreeing here.

The ONLY relationship that matters is where the sensor is, relative to those missing teeth, with the crank at TDC (for the sake of argument). You can rotate the wheel & sensor to any position, as long as the sensor stays in the same place relative to the wheel, so that the non-teeth are passing it at whatever's the right crank position.

So - find a good spot for the sensor, then mount the wheel so that the non-teeth pass it at whatever the correct crank position is.

saabmatt
27th November 2008, 01:01 PM
Yes but that has nothing to do with the crank it's down to the sensor location on the wheel.



Lets say at TDC the the sensor is in the middle of the gap yes



Leave at TDC remove the wheel rotate 90 degrees now refit the wheel and relocate the sensor to the middle of the gap itís the same.



So the wheel can go on the crank in any position as long as the sensor is on the wheel correctly.

saabmatt
27th November 2008, 01:02 PM
I think you're both slightly vehemently agreeing here.

The ONLY relationship that matters is where the sensor is, relative to those missing teeth, with the crank at TDC (for the sake of argument). You can rotate the wheel & sensor to any position, as long as the sensor stays in the same place relative to the wheel, so that the non-teeth are passing it at whatever's the right crank position.

So - find a good spot for the sensor, then mount the wheel so that the non-teeth pass it at whatever the correct crank position is.

Yes you got it

ejenner
27th November 2008, 01:14 PM
Lets say at TDC the the sensor is in the middle of the gap yes

Whenever you say TDC you are referring to a particular crank angle. That is 1 of the 3 things that needs to be lined up.

saabmatt
27th November 2008, 01:23 PM
No one of two,

TDC

CPS to Wheel

TooMany2cvs
27th November 2008, 01:23 PM
Whenever you say TDC you are referring to a particular crank angle. That is 1 of the 3 things that needs to be lined up.

There's only two things that need to be lined up.

- The crank to the correct position - TDC or whatever.
- The sensor to the wheel.

The absolute position of the wheel to the crank is irrelevant.

Go and have a play with a mug sat on an old CD as a coaster, and you'll see what we mean.

ejenner
27th November 2008, 01:45 PM
1, Yes you need to set to TDC
2, No you don't need to mount the disc in any set place
3, No you don't need to mount at a fixed place on the block (your sensor is at the back of the engine stock mount is at the front!)



No one of two,

TDC

CPS to Wheel

Looks like I'm slowly winning you over. Soon you will be in total agreement.

;)

saabmatt
27th November 2008, 01:52 PM
Looks like I'm slowly winning you over. Soon you will be in total agreement.
;)



I don't get what's so hard to understand, BUT anyway any chance of answering the original question?



When at TDC, where is your CPS pointing on the wheel?

ejenner
27th November 2008, 02:33 PM
I don't get what's so hard to understand

me neither. I do actually understand though... I've got the engine sitting on a stand in the garage and I made all the brackets and took all the measurements...

philb
27th November 2008, 02:58 PM
You did all that, with the crank at 117 degrees or whatever.

Now, rotate the engine to TDC. The sensor is now in different particular position in relation to the wheel. Its a certain amount of teeth before or after the gap. Lets say its now at 22 teeth before the gap.

To duplicate your setup, all one needs to do is set the engine to TDC, mount the sensor wherever suits, and then position the wheel so that the sensor is the 22 teeth before the gap. Now the wheel is at the correct angle, relative to the crank.

Which part of what I said is wrong?

saabmatt
27th November 2008, 03:21 PM
Look lets just forget this is just going round in circles. :roll:


I can work it out myself in 2 minutes with a trigger wheel a pen and a protractor itís no big deal


I just thought it was an easy answer to an easy question.

saabmatt
27th November 2008, 03:52 PM
I put lined the sensor up so it is in the first slit after the hole. As described on the UKS website.

http://www.red-green.co.uk/web/photos/gallery/images/full/crank_sensor_015.jpg


Then I lined the flywheel up 117-degrees BTDC / equal to 243-degrees.




http://www.red-green.co.uk/web/photos/gallery/images/full/crank_sensor_016.jpg


Sorry but I just had too!


From the UKS website:


ďThe trigger (the sensor) should be at the first slit after the "hole" when the engine is 117 degrees Before Top Dead Centre.Ē


So from what you have put in the post above, itís wrong anyway!

You have done it in reverse, hope you have just written that down wrong!?!

philb
27th November 2008, 06:02 PM
I think he had to reverse the calculations becuase the wheel is flipped 180 degrees

ejenner
28th November 2008, 07:40 AM
yeah - bit of a head-scratcher, ain't it... :lol:

This reminds me of the bit in philb's thread where he's debating speedo readings with Matthew or someone? Just went on for ever... and I think Phil was right in the end.

To duplicate your setup, all one needs to do is set the engine to 1 TDC, 2 mount the sensor wherever suits, and then 3 position the wheel so that the sensor is the 22 teeth before the gap. Now the wheel is at the correct angle, relative to the crank.

Phil - what you're saying is exactly right.

If I get a chance over the weekend I'll check the setup and let you all know what the position will be if the engine is set to TDC instead of 117-degrees BTDC.

saabmatt
28th November 2008, 09:19 AM
I think he had to reverse the calculations becuase the wheel is flipped 180 degrees
Makes no difference 180 degrees 90, degrees, 21, 13 etc


Ejenner says that he set the sensor to the wheel then rotated the crank, it should be set to TDC rotate the crank 117 then set the sensor to the wheel.


There is still no relation from the wheel to the crank it is the sensor to the wheel and in this case we know that the sensor needs to be first slot after the hole, as long as that is right the wheel can go anywhere on the crank.


At the end of day without knowing where the sensor is at TDC this is the only way to do it, but with a few of these setups out there now it could be made easier by just saying where the sensor is on the wheel at TDC!.


Tell me are we truly having a difference of opinion here or are you just pulling my chain?


If you still think I am wrong then I want to help you to understand and you need to get your head around this, but like I said Iím not sure if itís just a wind up!:o

ejenner
28th November 2008, 10:44 AM
The thing about reversing the numbers is only to do with having to get 117-degrees Btdc. The flywheel moves anti-clockwise if you're looking at the face of it. Therefore, 117-degrees BTDC is the same as 243-degrees after. It's true the shutter-wheel is reversed when mounted onto the end of a c900 crank pulley, but that makes no difference as long as you reverse the sensor as well... although I would say if you didn't want to reverse the sensor then it would work either way around. It suits my setup because of the way I have designed the bracket.

I think the fundermental point where the 'wordplay' is kicking in is all about how the shutter-wheel is attached to the crank pulley. What you have been saying is that there is nothing to consider here. Maybe that's not what you mean. But that's how it sounds.

1. If the engine is at 117-degrees BTDC

and

2. You have mounted the crank sensor in a fixed position

then

3. The shutter wheel must be mounted so the sensor is pointing at the slot after the missing teeth on the shutter wheel. So the crank will have to make a complete rotation before it hits the missing teeth again.


I could be wrong about this. The proof that I genuinely don't know exactly how the sensor disc should be mounted is clearly shown where I have made the shutter-wheel adjustable. i.e. if I had total confidence that what I was doing was correct then I would've mounted the wheel non-adustable.

If the car does not start first time... the setup of the crank sensor is one thing I might look at. Hence use of allen-key fastners rather than normal hex-bolts. Easier to get to after the engine is installed.

saabmatt
28th November 2008, 11:24 AM
OK youíre not wrong itís just misleading the way you have written it!

Forget saying you have reversed the wheel as thatís not important and makes no difference so forget that.

TDC is still TDC and 10 degrees BTDC is still 10 degrees BTDC no mater which way the engine rotates so forget that.

One revaluation is always 360 degrees no mater what.

We know that the position of the sensor is one slot after etc etc at 117 degrees Yes, OK

We could say the position of the sensor is twelve slots before the gap at TDC! OK

So Yes we have moved the crank through 117 degrees to TDC and the trigger wheel has also moved through 117 degrees so your first gap after is also now at TDC so the sensor is now pointing to a different slot or tooth, if we know which tooth or slot we can now set up (on a different car) at TDC because we know which tooth or slot we need to point to, and we donít need a degree wheel stuck to anything or locate 117 as SAAB have told us where 0 degrees is TDC sorted.

And you should know which tooth or slot this is as you have setup using the first and known way, the gap in the wheel is the reference point so at TCD it points to the 12, 31, 54 etc slot or tooth before or after the gap Yes?

I think what you have done is right but in the write up you didnít say it.

Set to 117, mount the sensor now rotate the wheel to 1 slot etc and fix in place.

ejenner
28th November 2008, 11:51 AM
If I get a chance over the weekend I'll check the setup and let you all know what the position will be if the engine is set to TDC instead of 117-degrees BTDC.

saabmatt
28th November 2008, 12:00 PM
GOT IT ! WOO HOOOOOO :cheesy:

With the engine at TDC the CPS should be at the 20th slot after the gap, wow that was hard work, cool it also means you can check your setup!

Set to TDC count the slots if your at 20 and you have your DIR right your in business! :cool:

http://i240.photobucket.com/albums/ff308/adshaft/1016-1.gif

ejenner
28th November 2008, 12:19 PM
yeah - seen that. Was one of the things I looked at when I was trying to work out how to set it up.

The other places where there is information is in the .pdf manual for t5 suite and also the quote from UKSaabs - as already repeated elsewhere.

VikingSpirit
28th November 2008, 02:39 PM
Why not just fit some twin webers and have done? :p

Matthew
28th November 2008, 04:18 PM
You guys will be going on about this forever http://www.hexfiles.com/smileys/popcorn.gif

TooMany2cvs
28th November 2008, 05:26 PM
You guys will be going on about this forever http://www.hexfiles.com/smileys/popcorn.gif

How's your white car going, Matthew...?

ejenner
28th November 2008, 06:02 PM
You guys will be going on about this foreverHow's your white car going, Matthew...?

Risky stratergy there Matthew. I wouldn't overuse that 'forever' word... cough, cough, #FFFFFF

ejenner
28th November 2008, 06:18 PM
Why not just fit some twin webers and have done?

And how old are you?

Hmm, what's that I have stuck in my beard.

The problem with all that old stuff is that it's not that accurate. The big performance comes from allowing in a lot more air and wacking in a huge amount of fuel.

With a high performance engine computer you say what you want, where and when you want it.

Fuel injection is actually a lot more simple than carbs... a few sensors and a bunch of injectors... then you plug in a box of black-magic and off you go. No floats or needles to worry about.

ejenner
29th November 2008, 01:56 PM
Got my pins soldered onto the T5 board. You need to do this to connect the computer for mapping and fiddling purposes.

'Faero' from UKSaabs is comming around to collect some camshafts. In exchange he is going to demonstrate the T5 programming exercise so I can see how it's done.

http://www.red-green.co.uk/web/photos/gallery/images/full/t5_conversion_003.jpg

http://www.red-green.co.uk/web/photos/gallery/images/full/t5_conversion_004.jpg

VikingSpirit
29th November 2008, 05:08 PM
And how old are you?

Lol, younger than you sir! :p

Hmm, what's that I have stuck in my beard.

a mixing of paint and filler dust, but I wouldn't do without it, chufffing freezing outside! :p

The problem with all that old stuff is that it's not that accurate.


The big performance comes from allowing in a lot more air and wacking in a huge amount of fuel.

Exactly the webers' forte! (twin weber 45's effectively = 4 throttle bodies!)

With a high performance engine computer you say what you want, where and when you want it.

Fuel injection is actually a lot more simple than carbs...

not the way you spin it! :roll:

a few sensors and a bunch of injectors... then you plug in a box of black-magic and off you go. No floats or needles to worry about.

The only thing complicated about carbs is when you try and add all sorts of gizmos for cold starts / warm starts etc,

At the garage where I used to work one of my colleagues had a old Cavalier GSI that was set up for the track. After going down the usual route of new cams, major head work, tubular manifolds etc. he was still after more power, and was told be his rolling road tuner that even though it was chipped and mapped his Fuel Injection was the biggest remaining limiting factor. On his advice he tore out the Fuel Injection system and fitted twin webers and it went like a rocket! (OK it had biblical throttle lag of turbo proportions, but at high revs on the track it was untouchable!)

If you're still not convinced look up Gustav's 4 wheel drive Saab 99 drag racer on you tube. What's that I see fuelling that claimed 650bhp monster? :p



free words

ejenner
29th November 2008, 07:59 PM
Lol, younger than you sir!

Exactly...

I don't care what you say about carbs... they just aren't better. They do a similar job but there's more than one way to skin a cat.

It's true that big powerful 2000hp dragsters still use carbs and there's a good reason for that. Electronic fuel injectors can't flow enough fuel for that kind of application. You start lining up huge banks of injectors on each cylinder just so you can flow enough fuel and it's not the best way to get the kind of power you need for drag racing. But to get the advantage... some dragster engineers use a carb for the main fueling and then they use a mappable fuel injection system to 'trim' the amount of injection to the optimum level.

If you put in too much fuel then the burning process in the engine does not happen in the best possible way. Likewise for too little. Having the exact amount fuel in every situation is critical to getting the best possible performance. In your example with the Cavalier... carbs won't have been the best possible solution in the end. It's just easier to take out a fuel injection system that you don't understand and fit a set of carbs that you do understand. It's a bit like solving a dental problem by using a big hammer and smashing out all the teeth. A well trained dentist wouldn't do it like that.

If you've ever driven a 9000 aero then you'll realise that what T5 does is amazing. You can feel the ECU making changes to the setup as you're accelerating to get the very best possible performance. If the engine is cold then it will drive the engine differently. Likewise, if you have been sitting in traffic and the car has heated up a lot... the ECU will change how it drives the engine. Or if you use fuel of varying qualities then the ECU will change the way it drives the engine so you still get the best possible performance.

If you ever sit in a 9000 you might notice that there is a battery voltage readout on the dashboard... the T5 ECU senses battery voltage because the programmers knew that fuel injectors have a delay in opening... i.e. there is a delay between when the ECU asks the injector to open and when it actually opens. This delay grows with lower battery voltages. The ECU adapts the opening time to compensate for this delay... clever... ain't it!

That's the extent of the fine control T5 has over your engine. You will never get this kind of performance enhancement from a carb. T5 can also knows how well the combustion process happened in each cylinder after it has happened. If it senses that there is something wrong with the combustion process then it will alter the settings to make the combustion process better. Just a tiny fuel tweak or an ignition timing tweak on that individual cylinder. Very sophisticated.

Having a carburettor is like having a very basic fuel injection system. Things have moved on an awful lot since the early days of fuel injection. A carburettor is similar because the settings are preset and nothing changes unless you physically pick it up and fiddle with it. Early electronic fuel injection systems couldn't be fiddled with... leading to the conclusion that if a fuel injection system isn't giving the best performance and can't be fixed then that must mean carbs are better because they can be fiddled with... i.e. "you wouldn't have this trouble if you had carbs"

One thing that's a bit wrong with T5 (and most modern fuel injection systems) is that T5 is designed to work with a catalytic converter. The catalytic converter needs quite a lean mixture to make it work well. This brings up the exhaust gas temps and that increases the chances of detonation. If you take out the catalytic converter you can start to run with a slightly richer mixture and that gives a better performance. But carburettors can't do anything for emissions control so the weakness of a modern fuel injection system just doesn't exist with a carburettor.

Then you need to think about all the other stuff a T5 system does - ignition control, boost control - where's the 1960's equivalent of that? :cool:

Saab-Daniel
30th November 2008, 11:31 AM
One thing that's a bit wrong with T5 (and most modern fuel injection systems) is that T5 is designed to work with a catalytic converter. The catalytic converter needs quite a lean mixture to make it work well. This brings up the exhaust gas temps and that increases the chances of detonation. If you take out the catalytic converter you can start to run with a slightly richer mixture and that gives a better performance. But carburettors can't do anything for emissions control so the weakness of a modern fuel injection system just doesn't exist with a carburettor.


Agree with your big post except the quoted bit here above. Yeah, the T5-system uses a cat, and a narrowband lambda-probe. But when you are pushing the engine hard, this is not taken into account, and you get the fuel injected that you need for a safe AFR at a given rpm and pressure in the manifold.
I would run it way more lean if the narrowband was a wideband and the ECU could understand it.
On my c900 I run afr 16:1 when cruising and around 14:1 at idle. A T5 runs 14.7:1 everywhere, except for when you thrash it and during the first early warm-up of the engine. The CAT works best at 14.7, but this is a bit rich IMHO, if you're looking for some economy while cruising also.

Daniel.

ejenner
30th November 2008, 11:52 AM
Agreed. There is acceleration enrichment.

ejenner
30th November 2008, 06:38 PM
Got my throttle body finished today. Fitted back to the manifold with a bit of Loctite 518 to boost the tired original rubber seal.

http://www.red-green.co.uk/web/photos/gallery/images/full/engine_assembly_021.jpg


The idle control valve has to be custom because it's really from a 1997 GM 900 and not really designed to fit to this engine. I changed the length of both tubes and I played around trying different hoses until I got something that fitted well. It's not perfect. But that's another one of those things for that long list of bits I'll come back to. It will work 100% fine as it is. But it could 'look' better! To be honest though, I much prefer function over form. I'll sleep easy despite the bits of rubber tube not being a perfect fit.

I also slightly shortened the tube between the water pipe and the throttle body. This is so that the pipe runs straight instead of curved. This gives more clearance for the tube to the idle control valve running over it.

I'm pretty sure other versions of the 900 had a bosch idle control valve pretty similar to this one. At some point in the future I might get my hands on a set of hoses and the bracket that will make this idle contol valve fit perfectly. But in the meantime this is how it will be.

http://www.red-green.co.uk/web/photos/gallery/images/full/engine_assembly_022.jpg


Here is the final solution for attaching the throttle sensor. It's just a bit of flat metal to clamp the TPS tightly in position. Pressure is controlled with 4 washers behind the plate that add up to a slightly lesser thickness than the flange on the TPS. I threadlocked both screws as I really don't want them falling out!

http://www.red-green.co.uk/web/photos/gallery/images/full/engine_assembly_023.jpg


The other thing I did was a cut'n'shut on the bracket for the idle control valve. I turned it upside down so valve would be mounted lower and the hoses would fit better. Then I decided to cut the bracket and adjust the angle. It's got a nice bit of weld on the back side but didn't really feel there was any huge requirment for weld on both sides - you can still see where I cut it. The valve now tilts back at the top and has been rotated anti-clockwise by a few degrees. With these little adjustments the hoses fit much better than they otherwise would.

http://www.red-green.co.uk/web/photos/gallery/images/full/engine_assembly_024.jpg

philb
30th November 2008, 09:08 PM
What daniel was saying is that T5 never runs the engine lean of stoich ( 14.7 AFR ). On the motorway you can run 15.5 - 16 with megasquirt and you will get an increase in fuel economy.

Regarding the idle valve, if that valve you've fitted is a 2 wire valve, then its the same as the valve on a c900 injection. Except the hose outlets are in a better location that suits the c900. I put a valve from a volvo 460 onto my car, and the hoses from the lucas valve matched right up, and the bracket fitted also.

ejenner
1st December 2008, 05:15 AM
No doubt devices and components are interchangable. But I'd prefer to make sure I am using all of the T5 components that came from the donor car. If I do that then there shouldn't be any trouble when it comes time to fire it up and use it. When I do the Motec on the 99 I have a very shiney new idle control valve that came out of one of the cars I broke. It's a Bosch of some kind and it was replaced by the previous owner before I got hold of the car. With the Motec I won't be under any obligation to use any particlar idle valve.

I get the point about fuel economy as well. Basically, whichever way you look at it... trying to always keep the AFR at 14.7 is a weakness in the engine management. Of course, if you want or need a CAT then keeping the AFR at 14.7 is going to be a good thing.

Saab-Daniel
5th December 2008, 12:12 PM
Agreed. There is acceleration enrichment.

No, not just acc. enrichment, also open-loop where the lambda-probe is disregarded. And also what Phil said... :D
Daniel.

philb
5th December 2008, 02:05 PM
Acceleration enrichment is just a very brief shot of extra fuel, at the beginning of an acceleration event. After that, when you are accelerating, the ecu will be running the engine slightly rich, for the best power and to keep things cool.
Hopefully you will not have to tune acceleration enrichment with t5-suite, it should be just bang on out of the box and not something that needs to be changed. ( Because its a pain to tune accel enrichment :) )

Matthew
5th December 2008, 03:24 PM
Best power is not made with a rich mixture.

Rich mixtures burn slower and thus less torque is developed. Lean mixtures burn quicker and make better torque (at the expense of your pistons etc).

Part of the purpose of acceleration enrichment is to guard against excessive combustion chamber temperatures and detonation.

Saab-Daniel
5th December 2008, 08:05 PM
Part of the purpose of acceleration enrichment is to guard against excessive combustion chamber temperatures and detonation.

Mostly, it's to provide a steady acceleration when clamping the foot down suddenly with great jumps in map without the increase in fuel needed in the map itself to compensate, therefore needing an increase from the enrichments.

Daniel.

philb
6th December 2008, 06:45 PM
Theres a confusion here between the extra fuel needed when the throttle is opened and a richer mixture under acceleration. The former is needed because:

during steady state running ( with the throttle and ( lets assume manifold pressure also ) at a constant value, a certain amount of fuel clings to the intake runners, and the intake ports.
When you open the throttle, the sudden decrease in vacuum has removed fuel from the walls of the intake runners and ports, if extra fuel is not added to replace this fuel, then the mixture will go lean shortly after the throttle is opened.
A carb does this with the accelerator pumps, EFI approximates this with various algorithms.

As for a richer mixture under acceleration, I have read that for petrol, best power is made at 13 - 13.5 : 1 AFR. Turbo cars run a bit richer to keep detonation away etc. If I lean the mixture out to 16 or 17:1 on my car theres a noticeable drop in power.

ejenner
2nd January 2009, 03:24 PM
Made a little engine trolley today. My sister was throwing out an old Ikea TV stand and it had some neat little castors on it. So I took those off and reused them for my engine trolley. This is good for moving engines up and down the driveway and around the floor in the garage. The engine hoist doesn't move very well because of its small metal wheels and the legs are really spaced out so it can't go up and down the driveway without the wheels falling into the flowerbed :roll:

I also used the shelves from the TV trolley to quickly make a 5-sided box. You can see it in the bottom left corner of the shot. Thought as I had the welder sitting there it wouldn't be too much hassle to knock it altogether.

Of course this does not really help get my car back on the road. The engine trolley will make life much easier when it comes to moving engines around.

Since the last update I've installed all the water hoses. I've also done the lower water pipe for the turbo. I had to fit a different hose to the AIC as the one I had before ended up splitting on the edge of the AIC exit. Didn't like being forced to bend and ended up splitting. Plugged the upper turbo water connection into the front of the head instead of the normal place on the side between the intake runners.

Things are really shaping up now. Just need to put on the rear engine mounts and possibly the power steering pump.


http://www.red-green.co.uk/web/photos/gallery/images/full/engine_trolley_008.jpg

TooMany2cvs
2nd January 2009, 04:52 PM
Plugged the upper turbo water connection into the front of the head instead of the normal place on the side between the intake runners.

What normally goes into there?

ejenner
2nd January 2009, 06:08 PM
It's because it's a 2.3 head from a 9000. This is just a small difference between a 9000 head and a 900 head. Thinking about where the turbo is positioned on a 9000 - you'd need a really long water tube to get all around to the other side of the engine to connect between the intake runners like it does on a 900.

I think this is probably a better spot for it. I've seen this hole plugged up sometimes... don't ask me where though! Could've been on a 900 head or a 9000 head!

TooMany2cvs
2nd January 2009, 06:11 PM
It's because it's a 2.3 head from a 9000.

Ah, of course.

I think this is probably a better spot for it.

Exactly what I was thinking...

ejenner
2nd January 2009, 06:25 PM
yes - but I thought it first... so ner...

Donkehote
2nd January 2009, 10:58 PM
Made a little engine trolley today. My sister was throwing out an old Ikea TV stand and it had some neat little castors on it. So I took those off and reused them for my engine trolley. This is good for moving engines up and down the driveway and around the floor in the garage. The engine hoist doesn't move very well because of its small metal wheels and the legs are really spaced out so it can't go up and down the driveway without the wheels falling into the flowerbed :roll:

I also used the shelves from the TV trolley to quickly make a 5-sided box. You can see it in the bottom left corner of the shot. Thought as I had the welder sitting there it wouldn't be too much hassle to knock it altogether.

Of course this does not really help get my car back on the road. The engine trolley will make life much easier when it comes to moving engines around.

Since the last update I've installed all the water hoses. I've also done the lower water pipe for the turbo. I had to fit a different hose to the AIC as the one I had before ended up splitting on the edge of the AIC exit. Didn't like being forced to bend and ended up splitting. Plugged the upper turbo water connection into the front of the head instead of the normal place on the side between the intake runners.

Things are really shaping up now. Just need to put on the rear engine mounts and possibly the power steering pump.


http://www.red-green.co.uk/web/photos/gallery/images/full/engine_trolley_008.jpg

Your engine looks really nice! i hope mine looks somewhere near what yours does.

My dad made up a whole pile of those for beacon motors. We used Chopping cart casters. i think im gonna have to make one up soon, as its getting annoying using a piece of plywood, with some skateboard casters on it, it wont turn.

ejenner
3rd January 2009, 06:55 AM
I need a few more of these... may have to go to the forrest to poach some super-market trolleys :)

I need a welder trolley as well. I have an old chair to stand the welder on at the moment.

B.T.W. - for anyone who's not bored of this thread already... I forgot to say what we did to the T5 ECU. We were able to successfully connect into the ECU and download the image from the memory chips. Once we had the image on the laptop we turned off VSS (which is the Saab imobiliser system) Turned off the purge valve, air-pump control & purge control (assuming all the same thing?) Turned off heater-plates (they sometimes sit in the intake ports to warm intake air for cold starting - not fitted to c900) and then we applied stage 1 or stage 2 tuning wizard - can't remember which. We also tweaked the boost request table a bit.

Hoping the car will start first time - fingers crossed!

ejenner
4th January 2009, 06:43 AM
Decided to start making a battery box. When I was working on the car all those years ago I originally thought I was going to do something with the battery. You've got to move it to get clearance for a nice exhaust downpipe. I seem to remember having plans to move it to the other side of the engine bay. So with this in mind... part of the process for cleaning up the engine bay involved removing the battery tray. This means I had to do something.

I got a long battery cable from the local auto-electrical shop for £5. Hopefully it will be long enough. It was just one of those things he had hanging around and I was lucky enough to come in at the right moment. You can see one end of it sticking out in the boot area. Photo also shows a couple of old batteries and a battery tray that I took out of my old T16.

http://www.red-green.co.uk/web/photos/gallery/images/full/battery_box_001.jpg


Started de-rusting the battery tray as it was quite bad and I wanted to re-use it. Noticed how good the original Saab paint job was! I guess they just had some bloke standing at the back of the factory spraying them up in large quantity and it does not really matter much if there's a drip or two. In an ideal world this tray would've been coated using electric current to attract the paint. But I guess there are more visible parts of the car that need this more than the battery tray.

http://www.red-green.co.uk/web/photos/gallery/images/full/battery_box_002.jpg


Applied a bit of rust converter gel. I couldn't really get into the back corners very well with the grinding tools so I used sandpaper to clean them up as much as I could and then the rust converter treatment.

http://www.red-green.co.uk/web/photos/gallery/images/full/battery_box_003.jpg


I cut up some bits of metal and made a box that is the right shape to take the battery tray. It should also be deep enough (I measured) to extend out the bottom of the boot to accept the battery. I think Tomarse's car was the only other one where I've seen it done like this. I'm sure other people have done it this way - but not that I have seen. In any case, it was a tweak I approved of so that's how I decided to do it. There are a couple of holes in the bottom to vent battery gasses. I'm also going to cut the corners off. Basically, it's going to be open at the bottom and I will have to cover over the battery at the top to stop water getting into the boot. The metal itself is going to be painted with many coats as it's the kind of thing that's going to attract a lot of rust if not properly protected - see the old battery tray for reference! The box is only tacked together at the moment. I did this so I could move the sides of the box around to get the thing square while I was welding up the other sides.

http://www.red-green.co.uk/web/photos/gallery/images/full/battery_box_004.jpg


I've put one thin coat of paint on the battery tray to protect it between now and when I paint everything else. The battery tray fits nicely inside the box. I have cut down the original legs on the battery tray to 15mm. That's about a 5th of the original length. I wouldn't have room under the car otherwise.

http://www.red-green.co.uk/web/photos/gallery/images/full/battery_box_005.jpg


Sadly, I have to go back to real work now. This means the car project will be on hold until next weekend. I can't always find the time on the weekend to get anything done. Roll on summer I say. Hopefully it will be globally warm this year and not cool like the last 2 years.

ejenner
8th January 2009, 03:57 PM
I don't normally do anything on the car after work. Just don't have the energy after sitting around in the office all day. :roll:

But... today I put in a quick hour.

I've finished welding up the base for the battery box. Corners are still on the box at the moment but I will be cutting those off for extra ventilation and to let the water out. That's why the corners are still open.

http://www.red-green.co.uk/web/photos/gallery/images/full/battery_box_006.jpg


Have also welded some threads onto the legs of the original battery tray. I will drill some corresponding holes in the base of the box so it can be bolted in place. It's easier than trying to weld under the tray, wouldn't be able to get the nozzle into the gap between the tray and the base. So it will be bolted in. Actually, Saab originally bolted it into the chassis when it was in its original position.

http://www.red-green.co.uk/web/photos/gallery/images/full/battery_box_007.jpg

IronJoe
8th January 2009, 05:50 PM
Looking pretty good! I will be interested to see your final product.

idiot_saabvant
8th January 2009, 06:06 PM
That looks awesome ejenner. I'll be doing this this summer also. You must be using gas for your MIG, as I see very little splatter. A gas bottle is my next purchase.

pierre

ejenner
9th January 2009, 04:02 AM
yes I have Co2 for welding steel. As soon as it runs out you notice the difference immediately. Starts to splatter. I'm getting much better at welding after lots of practice. Actually starting to enjoy it now rather than fearing it or being nervous about messing it up. These joints were done by building up spots until the whole joint was welded. The metal is too thin to just sit there drawing lines, heats up too much and then you get a hole.

I'm starting to think about how the lid of the box is going to look. I'm thinking I will make some sort of flange so I can bolt the lid down to the top. Secure and water tight.

idiot_saabvant
9th January 2009, 12:12 PM
ejenner,

You can use a backing plate to absorb some of the heat, such as an angle iron say 1cmx1cm. Also use the smallest diameter wire you can for the thin gauge steel. I can "draw a bead" with my fluxcore on 16-18 gauge plate. Getting thin up to 22 gauge, then I gotta "spot weld". Beveling the edges also help as then you just have to "fill the bevel" as opposed to having weld the two edges together. Running a higher wire feed allows for cooler welding temps.

pierre

ejenner
10th January 2009, 06:09 AM
yep - the edges overlap so the weld has some where to drop into.

I used the backing-plate technique when I was welding up my downpipe. I had another piece of exhaust tube welded onto the end of a stick and I was using it to get inside the pipe if there was a gap to fill between joins.

I'm using 0.6 mm wire for this. It's true, wire diameter makes a huge difference. I managed to get a reel of 0.6 stainless wire when I was doing the downpipe and switching from the (eaisly available) 0.8mm wire to the (special - hard to get) 0.6mm wire was a huge help. The big stores around here aren't very specific when it comes to stocking welding supplies. They just have a small selection. I got the 0.6mm stainless wire from a specialist welding supplier (not far from where I live)

ejenner
11th January 2009, 09:44 AM
This is turning out to be a not-so-productive weekend so far! People want me to do things other than finish my car. :evil: But it's cold outside and the hours are short so nearly anything else is more interesting than more car work. Today I have been on Saabcentral and UKSaabs since around 10am and I should really stop wasting so much time! ;)

I decided a long time ago that I was going to use 9000 aero seats instead of normal c900 seats.

These are the seats I got. They're not great. But they were cheap and something to get started with. I can always change the skins or get them repaired at some point in the future.

http://www.red-green.co.uk/web/photos/gallery/images/full/aero_seats_001.jpg


The plan for putting them into the car is to fit them to a set of c900 sliding seat rails. In other words... there will be two sets of seat rails. One set that belongs to the oridinary Aero seats and another set welded onto those that can be used attach the seats to the chassis.

This shows the bottom of a set of post-90' c900 seats. Really this idea would work with any spare set of seat rails but the c900 ones have the advantage of already being Saab rails so they are nice and strong and the right size to fit into the car.

http://www.red-green.co.uk/web/photos/gallery/images/full/aero_seats_002.jpg


Here are the rails after I separated them from the seats. You can see the top set of rails (in the photo) are from the drivers side as they still have the height adjuster handle. I'll be removing the handle as part of the work. I think ideally, if you had limitless quantities of second-hand 900 seats at your disposal then you would use two passenger seats rather than one passenger and one driver. But I've got to work with what I got. There is also the additional grief of having to use the angle grinder to cut the rails away from the drivers seat. The passenger rails simply bolt to the bottom of the seat - much easier to separate. I've not really done much in the way of sizing up the situation. I am still at planning stage one. I need to look at the bottom of the Aero seats and so I can try to work out how they will join to the 900 seat rails. Whatever I come up with must not dramatically increase the height of them. So that's three things to think about. Joining the 900 rails to the chassis, joining the Aero seats to the 900 rails and then making sure the final product does not require the sunroof to be open at all times.

The idea of using the additional set of 900 rails is to make sure the Aero seats can be moved forward for rear-seat access. I am going to make a pull-cord that sticks up from the side of the seat that can be used to release the catch on the 900 rails. Then the Aero seats will slide forwards.

I will fill in all the adjustment holes in the rails (except for the rearmost set) so the mechanisim can only lock when the seats are pushed back into the parked position. When you release the catch and pull them forward the catch will stay open and won't snap shut until you push them back into the parked position.

http://www.red-green.co.uk/web/photos/gallery/images/full/aero_seats_003.jpg

ejenner
11th January 2009, 09:48 AM
Question - does anyone know why the seat rails have little hook-eyes near the mounting points? Are they for securing child seats or something like that? They are on the drivers and passengers side! 4 on each seat.

saabmatt
11th January 2009, 10:27 AM
I think you will find the seats will be too high, I have just fitted Aero Seats :cheesy: and they are OK set at the lowest setting any higher and I wouldnít be happy and would have removed them again.


The seats move forward enough and fast enough on the motors to allow more than enough room for rear passengers.


So in summery if I was you I would just fit as is and donít waste any more time on it. :cool:

ejenner
11th January 2009, 12:36 PM
When you can weld and cut stuff then you can do almost anything. If I was really desparate for extra space then I could cut holes in the floor and weld the second set of rails deeper in the footwell. I doubt very much it would come to that. The second set of rails does not have to be mounted at the same height as the original set of rails. If I remember rightly, the mounting points for the rails are already two or three inches off the car floor anyway.

The point about making them move forward is to get that OEM quality that people often forget about when making big changes to a car. If the seats take 30-seconds to move forward and you're sitting there explaining why the Aero seats are better while the passenger is waiting to get into the back then you're already being very boring. Whereas, if you can quickly whip them forwards like you would expect in any normal 3-door then there's no questions asked and everything just carries on as normal.

The other options are:

1. Get some lovely recaro seats with leather, electric, heating and already designed for a 3-door so already flip forwards.

2. Get some other nice seats from a later 9-3 - again, with the flip already built-in.

3. Get a four-door

4. Wire up a Clifford alarm system so one of the outputs from the alarm system can trigger a circuit that holds down one of the memory buttons on the seat. Then when you get to the car the seats will already be forward because you pressed the button on the remote beforehand. But any solution that involves moving the seat electronically also involves moving the seat back into the right position electronically... that would take forever.

5. Stick with normal c900 seats.


So lots of options - but I really like the 9000 Aero seats. They are fantastic seats, really comfortable. That's the main reason I want them. Have tried lots of other seats but most happy with the 9000 ones.

ejenner
11th January 2009, 12:43 PM
On another note. The battery box is now ready to weld to the bottom of the car. This will most likely happen next week. In the meantime I will be lashing it with paint over the next few evenings. Paint will have to be taken off for welding, but only locally. Once welded into the car I will then put on lots more paint to make sure it does not rust. Will also apply underseal to the bottom side.

saabismi
11th January 2009, 01:04 PM
I have always wanted to ask this, Is it possible to put Aero seat foam and skins on a c900 seat frame?Of course, it would need some welding...

saabmatt
11th January 2009, 05:06 PM
Best option would be to take a late 92/93ish 900 electric seat and graft the back rest to it, that way you have electric front/back, up down movement with tilt.

And I don't think it takes 30 Secs to go from my seating position (far back with back rest way back) to full forward and back rest on steering wheel.

Canít you measure the height of a 900 seat on the floor against an Aero Seat on the floor to give an idea of difference? I could of but too late now.

TooMany2cvs
11th January 2009, 05:09 PM
3. Get a four-door

Didn't you just scrap one of those?

fliptopbin
11th January 2009, 05:16 PM
Just caught up on this Emmett - fantastic effort, really good to see the build moving along! Looking forward to seeing the car around ;)

ejenner
12th January 2009, 04:11 AM
Didn't you just scrap one of those?

Yes... and since the 9000 has broken I'm now cursing that move... however, I would've needed to buy a tax disc and insuance for the 900 4-door if I wanted to keep it by the side of the road for longer. Would've cost me at least £100 to keep it (for 6 months tax) I've also broken a T16 which I could also be driving now if I haddn't broken that. Although similar pressures forced that cars demise also. It needed tax and to get the tax you have to have insurance. I also needed the Koni springs, Brembo brakes and various other parts from that car to put onto the Carlsson. So breaking that was more warranted than breaking the 4-door. I just never imagined the 9000 would let me down so disgracefully! Oh well, fingers burnt... stick to reliable / fixable 900's instead!

philjohnhb
12th January 2009, 05:22 AM
Yes... and since the 9000 has broken I'm now cursing that move... however, I would've needed to buy a tax disc and insuance for the 900 4-door if I wanted to keep it by the side of the road for longer. Would've cost me at least £100 to keep it (for 6 months tax) I've also broken a T16 which I could also be driving now if I haddn't broken that. Although similar pressures forced that cars demise also. It needed tax and to get the tax you have to have insurance. I also needed the Koni springs, Brembo brakes and various other parts from that car to put onto the Carlsson. So breaking that was more warranted than breaking the 4-door. I just never imagined the 9000 would let me down so disgracefully! Oh well, fingers burnt... stick to reliable / fixable 900's instead!

So what happened to the 9k?

ejenner
12th January 2009, 05:41 AM
autobox is playing up. Can't really drive it now. :(

saabmatt
12th January 2009, 07:02 AM
98 9000 Aero, wired with original 9000 heated seat switches. :cool:

http://www.terrimoore.co.uk/matt/Aero%20Seat%201.jpg

http://www.terrimoore.co.uk/matt/Aero%20Seat%202.jpg
http://www.terrimoore.co.uk/matt/Aero%20Seat%203.jpg

ejenner
12th January 2009, 04:58 PM
No doubt Aero seats are the ones to have!

ejenner
18th January 2009, 02:04 PM
Made an ole' in me floor today. Just about the only place the thing will fit without interfering with other parts of the car. Really I wanted it longways in line with the brace. But the strap for the petrol tank is under the floor in that area so I had to go for transverse mounting instead.

http://www.red-green.co.uk/web/photos/gallery/images/full/battery_box_008.jpg


Took off the underseal around the area where I was planning to weld. Was a bit too difficult to get the bit around the underside off, seemed better stuck, so didn't bother, had a couple of little fires while I was welding but were easy to put out with a finger in a welding glove.

http://www.red-green.co.uk/web/photos/gallery/images/full/battery_box_009.jpg


Found a handy bit of copper tube standing in the corner of the garage which I used to make sure the battery tray was level relative to the rails that hold the boot floor. Also shows me the amount of clearance I have when the battery is installed.

http://www.red-green.co.uk/web/photos/gallery/images/full/battery_box_010.jpg


Now the tray has been welded in. This will be the bottom half of the battery box. Next I will weld a flat frame around the top and that will be the bottom of the seal. The lid of the box will have a bit of rubber door seal around it and the lid will clamp down with bolts to create the seal that I need to keep excessive amounts of water from getting into the boot.

http://www.red-green.co.uk/web/photos/gallery/images/full/battery_box_011.jpg

philjohnhb
19th January 2009, 06:24 AM
I have just noticed your valiant efforts re battery tray. I'm about to embatk on much the same mod myself. Thanks for ironing out the problems first Emmett! - nice job.

philb
19th January 2009, 08:39 AM
Very nice work Emmett. Will be interested to see the next phase of this - the wiring for the positive cable.

ejenner
19th January 2009, 01:18 PM
There is a problem with the battery mod in the sense that I think I have eliminated the attachment points for the standard Saab scissor jack in the process. This had been where the CD-Changer was bolted down so really there wasn't any space for the scissor jack in the first place. There should be enough space to get the jack in somewhere under the floor anyway.

Philb - wiring the positive cable is probably going to be the easiest bit. When wired up standard the wire for the positive cable goes from the positive terminal on the battery to the starter motor. The wire is split and a smaller gauge wire goes to the power terminal on the top of the offside strut where all the power cables connect. At the very least I will be able to reuse the original positive battery wire to keep the power going to the power terminal for power to the cars electrical systems. I will have to cut the ring off the original battery terminal and insulate it so it does not earth on the bodywork.
Next stage of this little project is to weld a flat frame around the top of the box so there is something for a rubber seal to press onto. Don't want the vents in the bottom of the battery tray to allow water into the boot so the top of the battery box needs to be sealed. Lead-acid batterys also fume a bit and it would be better for the fumes to exit out the bottom rather than comming into the car. Although it's not really a massive issue. Then I need to make the lid, a clamp to hold the battery down to the battery tray and I need to sort out the earth strap.

KurBads
19th January 2009, 02:04 PM
There is a problem with the battery mod in the sense that I think I have eliminated the attachment points for the standard Saab scissor jack in the process. This had been where the CD-Changer was bolted down so really there wasn't any space for the scissor jack in the first place. There should be enough space to get the jack in somewhere under the floor anyway.

Philb - wiring the positive cable is probably going to be the easiest bit. When wired up standard the wire for the positive cable goes from the positive terminal on the battery to the starter motor. The wire is split and a smaller gauge wire goes to the power terminal on the top of the offside strut where all the power cables connect. At the very least I will be able to reuse the original positive battery wire to keep the power going to the power terminal for power to the cars electrical systems. I will have to cut the ring off the original battery terminal and insulate it so it does not earth on the bodywork.
Next stage of this little project is to weld a flat frame around the top of the box so there is something for a rubber seal to press onto. Don't want the vents in the bottom of the battery tray to allow water into the boot so the top of the battery box needs to be sealed. Lead-acid batterys also fume a bit and it would be better for the fumes to exit out the bottom rather than comming into the car. Although it's not really a massive issue. Then I need to make the lid, a clamp to hold the battery down to the battery tray and I need to sort out the earth strap.

No, you haven't removed jack holding points. To best of my understanding (as in my car) it is to be put under the spare tyre in the clamp/space just adjacent to the thing where spare screw-down screw goes in. I can see the very place in your last picture. it goes there.

alnislacis
19th January 2009, 02:53 PM
Concerning Your new aero seats.

I know that this is a minor issue, however seats are not so minor issue for me as I am rather tall.

Firstly, were there adjustment (1) and heading (2) wires already in Your car? Or did you simply adopted wiring from 9000?

Secondly, what are the areo seats like in 900og? Do they reduce space dramatically? Are they lower or higher that the regular ones?

ejenner
20th January 2009, 03:43 AM
No, you haven't removed jack holding points. To best of my understanding (as in my car) it is to be put under the spare tyre in the clamp/space just adjacent to the thing where spare screw-down screw goes in. I can see the very place in your last picture. it goes there.

Thinking about it now... guess you're right... the brackets I removed would've been the ones for holding the warning triangle then...?

Concerning Your new aero seats

The ones in the picture above aren't mine. Those are saabmatt - ask him.

My plan is to bolt on extra rails so I can move the seats back and forward for rear seat access. This is going to mean I will need to adapt the floor to take the extra set of rails. In this case I will probably mount the rails lower than standard. Then I will get the space back.

I think if you have a post-91 c900 then that comes with all the wiring for the electric seats as it was an option on those cars.

saabmatt
20th January 2009, 05:29 AM
warning triangle then...? .

Correct



The ones in the picture above aren't mine. Those are saabmatt - ask him.

I think if you have a post-91 c900 then that comes with all the wiring for the electric seats as it was an option on those cars.

It depends on what you want, if you want Memory and Heated seats you need to do a few mods.

For the Motors/Memory you need to run a 12v constant feed to one of the plugs (I have both power wires constant feed so I can move the seats with out the key in)

For the heaters you need to wire in 9000 switches/thermostatís (900ís have a thermostat in the seat) you need to cut the Yellow wire at the plug and run it to the Blue wire on the switch and then run the yellow/white from the switch back to the yellow at the plug you just cut, you need an earth at the switch and a feed from the dash lights for the illumination bulbs think thatís it, may of got that the wrong way round but itís obvious when you look at a wiring diagram.

Now all you need now is somewhere to mount the switches :cheesy:

philb
20th January 2009, 06:41 AM
Philb - wiring the positive cable is probably going to be the easiest bit. When wired up standard the wire for the positive cable goes from the positive terminal on the battery to the starter motor. The wire is split and a smaller gauge wire goes to the power terminal on the top of the offside strut where all the power cables connect. At the very least I will be able to reuse the original positive battery wire to keep the power going to the power terminal for power to the cars electrical systems. I will have to cut the ring off the original battery terminal and insulate it so it does not earth on the bodywork.


You could just cut the original terminal off and use that as your starting point for the cable that will run to the rear of the car..

TooMany2cvs
20th January 2009, 06:50 AM
You could just cut the original terminal off and use that as your starting point for the cable that will run to the rear of the car..

Given that we're taking about an unfused live straight from the battery, I think I'd be wanting to do it properly rather than re-use bits of existing wire.

www.vehicle-wiring-products.eu

philb
20th January 2009, 07:22 AM
Theres already an existing wire going from battery to starter. Its the right length and all. This way you'd retain the existing junction box and wiring, you'd just join the cable from the rear of the car to the existing cable after removing the battery clamp. Thats 1 joint.
How would throwing the whole lot out and starting again be an improvement?

ejenner
20th January 2009, 07:24 AM
Ade - easy to do things properly without buying new stuff. ;)

saabmatt
22nd January 2009, 11:19 AM
Got my pins soldered onto the T5 board. You need to do this to connect the computer for mapping and fiddling purposes.


http://www.red-green.co.uk/web/photos/gallery/images/full/t5_conversion_003.jpg

http://www.red-green.co.uk/web/photos/gallery/images/full/t5_conversion_004.jpg

Ejenner,
Can you let me know where you picked up your pins from?

Cheers
Matt

ejenner
22nd January 2009, 01:04 PM
I got mine from 'faero' of UKSaabs. He wanted some old B202 cams and instead of paying cash I just asked him to demonstrate use of T5_suite. He provided the pins in advance via post and I soldered them to the board before he got there.

There are many ways to skin this cat... but I found the best thing to do is to use a .8mm micro-drill to drill through the circuit-board where the dents are in the solder blobs. Then just push the pins through the holes and blob a bit of solder on the back.

I did two ECU's like this and both flashed successfully.

Here are the pics of the second one I did. That came out better as I used the slightly bigger .8mm drill-bit instead of the .75mm that I used on the first one.

I'm pretty sure these are the pins. Get them from Maplin! http://www.maplin.co.uk/Module.aspx?ModuleNo=1500

http://www.red-green.co.uk/web/photos/saabpics/aero/t5_pins_001.jpg

http://www.red-green.co.uk/web/photos/saabpics/aero/t5_pins_002.jpg

http://www.red-green.co.uk/web/photos/saabpics/aero/t5_pins_003.jpg

ejenner
22nd January 2009, 01:08 PM
I bent the pins on the first board because I had to push them through the holes. The holes were a bit too small so the pins would not slot straight into the hole. It is important not to drill them too big though. If you were to use a 1mm drill then this would remove all of the copper-track from the PCB and you would have nothing to solder to. The pins would be flapping around in the holes as well... if the holes are too big. This problem with the hole size also caused the messy soldering that you can see in the first pictures!

Saab-Daniel
24th January 2009, 06:56 AM
I just use a solder-pump to open up the holes. Works like a charm...
Daniel.

ejenner
25th January 2009, 05:33 AM
Probably does. But the issue I have is that the tip of my soldering iron is way too big to work with these fine pins. I already have the micro-drills from when I was drilling out jets for my DIY nitrous injection system. Faero was talking about pushing the soldering iron through the board or soldering the pins to the tops of the board terminals without actually putting the legs through the board. Of all those choices - drilling the board was my best option. Also worked like a charm... and believe it or not... probably quicker than the solder sucker method.

ejenner
22nd February 2009, 03:44 PM
Yesterday = nothing done. Today I made the frame to go around the top of the battery box.

http://www.red-green.co.uk/web/photos/gallery/images/full/battery_box_012.jpg


The frame has been welded to the top of the battery box. Seam sealer to seal up the holes between the battery box and the boot floor. I needed to get a nice smooth surface to seal against so I used filler on the top surface of the frame to cover all the imperfections. Next I need to sand back the filler and then start covering it all up with lots of nice paint.

http://www.red-green.co.uk/web/photos/gallery/images/full/battery_box_013.jpg


I started playing around with the seat rails as well today. I'm not completely sure that this is the way I will do it. But when you turn the rails upside down then there is the option to attach the uprights to a vertical section of the floorpan. If they are fixed in the correct position then they will provide 4 mounting holes to fix the aero seats to.

http://www.red-green.co.uk/web/photos/gallery/images/full/aero_seats_004.jpg

ejenner
23rd February 2009, 07:46 AM
I have finally gotten around to setting up some proper gallery software on my webserver so now the whole gallery is available here: http://www.red-green.co.uk/gallery/main.php?g2_itemId=614

ejenner
1st March 2009, 07:13 PM
Yesterday I did a tiny bit more work on the battery tray. It's starting to look quite neat as I'm finishing off the filler around the top edge. I don't have any pictures of that. Just never got around to getting the camera out.

While I was waiting for filler to dry I just thought it would be silly to sit there twiddling thumbs or messing about on forums... so I started to move onto the next stage. The next stage is to basically try and tackle a bit of the rust up the front end. I last looked at this a year or two ago and was a little bit annoyed at the time. I found a hole in the front-offside wheelarch which had obviously been filled up with some kind of bodyshop resin and this was done to cover up the rust. At the time I just poked out the rust with a screwdriver and covered it up with paint to protect it before I had more time to come back to it.

Yesterday I started to investigate using the angle-grinder method. I found that the little bit of rust I had poked out earlier was not really all of it. So I started to cut until I was sure I had removed all of the rust. I don't think I'll be doing this kind of repair in too many other areas of the car. This was never supposed to be a full restoration so I'm focusing on getting the car back on the road rather than perfect. This won't effect the outward appearance of the car but it will mean I'm going to have to 'make-good' rather than 'make perfect' - the reason for this is that I know that the only way to get total perfection is to strip off every last bit of trim and every component and acid-dip the shell, start with a totally clean shell and build up from there... this was not the way this project started so I would be foolish to imagine that total perfection would be possible and so that's not what I'm aiming for. All I want is 'pretty good' - not 'perfect' - maybe I'll do 'perfect' at some point in the future!

Anyway, this is how it went.

I started by cutting out the rusty sections. These rusty bits happen because the water bottle for the washer jets is housed in this area. Over time, overflow from the washer bottle during filling and exposure to oncomming weather through the front of the car seem to rust-out the base of the wheelarch. It's quite bad really! I think most c900's have the same problem. In my case the bodyshop had filled over everything and then painted it. That is the same as avoiding the issue and it was going to cause problems in the future. I had already accidently made a hole when I was doing some other work in that area and it was only going to get worse so something had to be done.

http://www.red-green.co.uk/web/photos/gallery/images/full/rust_repair_002.jpg


Initially, this was all I was going to do, but while cleaning off some underseal I slipped with the grinder and accidently hit the edge of the bodywork. The grinder caught the body and ripped out all the resin and exposed the full extent of the rust and the resin injection done by the bodyshop. Things were a lot worse than I had first thought. This was a low point. But in another way I was quite happy to find a problem like this.

You can see the ripped edge where it just cracked off and the crack that goes up the rest of the arch.

http://www.red-green.co.uk/web/photos/gallery/images/full/rust_repair_001.jpg


So I just cut it out straight. It takes real balls to do this when the outside paintwork is totally perfect... you just don't want to remove all of that perfect paint... but what choice did I have... couldn't really leave it.

http://www.red-green.co.uk/web/photos/gallery/images/full/rust_repair_003.jpg


I used cardboard templates to make a bottom section for the bottom of the hole and I also made a template for the inner-arch section. When I was in Sweden I picked up a couple of inner-wheel arch repair sections at the ANA parts sale. So one of these was used for this repair.

http://www.red-green.co.uk/web/photos/gallery/images/full/rust_repair_004.jpg


Here's a shot looking down into the wheelarch. Not too bad a fit. Some fiddling needed. Bottom section already in place.

http://www.red-green.co.uk/web/photos/gallery/images/full/rust_repiar_005.jpg


You can get an idea of the way the bottom section fits. I had to cut out a little bit more rust from the outside face. The bottom section bends round as it normally would.

You can also see in this shot the edge in front of the wheel was saved from the original body as that bit haddn't rusted. So I welded this back onto the repair to make it more like the original shape. It is all comming together very much like it should. Almost exactly like the original bodywork.

http://www.red-green.co.uk/web/photos/gallery/images/full/rust_repair_006.jpg


Here is the welding on the inside of the wheelarch. I didn't have time to clean this up, grind it back or paint it... so this is a warts'n'all shot of the section welded in place with a battle against slightly dirty metal making the welding a bit blobby but basically ok. You can hit this section hard with your fist and it's totally sound so the welds are secure.

http://www.red-green.co.uk/web/photos/gallery/images/full/rust_repair_007.jpg


I ran out of time in the end. But at this stage there is one last square to weld back into place and then the whole area will be solid metal once more. I had no idea all of this rust was there originally, but glad it's all solid again.

fliptopbin
1st March 2009, 08:08 PM
This was a low point

:o I bet! Reckon you probably used a few choice words - I would have been turning the air blue.

Great work on the repair though. God knows what mine looks like under the Aero kit! :o :lol:

Saabstudent
2nd March 2009, 05:12 AM
:o I bet! Reckon you probably used a few choice words - I would have been turning the air blue.

Great work on the repair though. God knows what mine looks like under the Aero kit! :o :lol:

Bad luck Emmet, but if there is anyone who will 'just get on with it' it is you ;)

Amen to that Martin - i know mine has to be crumbling below the aerokit. Is ignorance really bliss? Ask me in a couple of years...

G

TooMany2cvs
2nd March 2009, 05:25 AM
Amen to that Martin - i know mine has to be crumbling below the aerokit. Is ignorance really bliss? Ask me in a couple of years...

It's not just aero kits - the arches on mine all look absolutely fine, but when I replaced the NSF finisher last year, it's slightly crunchy beneath it... Not at the bottom, though - right on the crown.

There are little bits of crunchy in the bottoms - but the worst is behind that front arch, with a small bilster having turned into a hole just behind the arch, right on the "fold under", on the OSF wing.

ejenner
2nd March 2009, 07:39 AM
TBH, in my opinion these wheel-arch sections are better off made out of body-filler to avoid the rusting problems. Either that or repair them and then block them off from the inside and fill up with underseal to stop the water getting into them. The wheelarch edges where all the rust starts are spot-welded together. The moisture gets in between the spots and sits there rusting away. Plastic trims cover it up nicely and it's a perfect example of out-of-site = out-of-mind... but if left too long the rust will spread and get up to a part of the wing where it can be seen from the outside.

Where the bodyshop had injected resin and painted over that bottom corner they had also failed to clear the drain hole that should let the water out. The drain hole was blocked with a nut that had been dropped at some point in the past. Injecting the resin and combined with that blocked water hole meant that the corner section was totally sealed up. If water had got in there (for whatever reason) then it would not have drained.

fliptopbin
2nd March 2009, 04:58 PM
The bit that I got repaired a couple of years ago (just in front of the near side rear arch) is bubbling up again - £400 including the paint :( I think it's going in front of both rear wheels as well.

Hopefully getting a garage built in the next few months, whereupon I will embark on a mission to remove the aero kit and then cry into my dinner when I see the full extent of the rust!

ejenner
2nd March 2009, 05:20 PM
I see a man standing at the top of a slippery slope... :lol:

don't do it Mart. The car looks great as it is.

fliptopbin
2nd March 2009, 05:22 PM
Hehe! At the moment.... ;)

ejenner
2nd March 2009, 05:25 PM
If you do take it off the road do one bit at a time. i.e. take off the front wheel arch and repair that one weekend and make sure it is all back in one piece by Sunday evening.

TooMany2cvs
2nd March 2009, 05:28 PM
If you do take it off the road do one bit at a time. i.e. take off the front wheel arch and repair that one weekend and make sure it is all back in one piece by Sunday evening.

Matthew? Is that you?

ejenner
3rd March 2009, 10:16 AM
No, from my own experience I know how much trouble you can find yourself in if you take things too far when it comes to taking cars to bits. The never-ending Carlsson project is a great example of how not to do it.


If I were doing the whole thing again this is how I would do it:


1. Find an indoor workshop where the car can stay while the project happens.

2. Carefully stip the whole car so you are only left with the empty shell. All the bolts, electrical connectors, screws and other components must be very carefully labled and safely stored in labled containers and logically filed so you know where to look for each bit. Try not to destroy anything during the dismantling process.

3. I would say probably best to start refurbishing the components before painting or restoring the shell. Get all the fastners and brackets cleaned up, derusted and coated. Get the engine rebuilt. Get the gearbox rebuilt. Check over the wiring looms to make sure they are all in good order. Clean up and coat all the axels and install new bushes where required. Clean all the carpets and replace or repair any worn fabrics.

4. Get the shell either acid dipped or thouroughly sand-blasted or maybe even both.

5. Bring the shell back to the workshop, cut out all the rust and replace with new metal.

6. Get the shell properly treated with some kind of electronic coating where the coating is attracted to the shell with charged electrons. This means all the areas inside the shell will get coated as well as the obvious visible areas.

7. Get the shell painted (or do it yourself) with a nice topcoat - OEM colours are better than some of the more exotic options people sometimes go for (like that rubbish 'flick' paint)

8. Get lots of clear coat applied to the outside. If this is done then the paint will be scratch and chip resistant as it will be under the clear coat. You will always be able to polish it back. Every car should have a clear coat but most don't.

9. Underseal the chassis with dry underseal before reattaching the components.

10. Reassemble the car with new bushings and rubber where possible. Install all components and get it running.

11. Wet underseal the car with some sort of slimey underseal that resists scratching, chipping and water. This can be a bit horrible to have on the bottom of the car and isn't very popular but on the upside, it'll probably never rust.

TooMany2cvs
3rd March 2009, 10:24 AM
6. Get the shell properly treated with some kind of electronic coating where the coating is attracted to the shell with charged electrons. This means all the areas inside the shell will get coated as well as the obvious visible areas.

I've heard of - but never used - "flame spraying". Basically, the shell is sprayed with a coat of molten zinc, electrostatically attracted. Or something. Think of it as a half-way house to galvanising, without the risk of distortion.

7. Get the shell painted (or do it yourself) with a nice topcoat - OEM colours are better than some of the more exotic options people sometimes go for (like that rubbish 'flick' paint)

Mebbe get the inside, engine bay and shuts sprayed, assembled, mask the apertures, then spray the outside? Reduces the chances of paint damage during storage and assembly.

ejenner
3rd March 2009, 10:53 AM
could do it that way. But it means two trips to the bodyshop if you are getting a firm to paint it.

If you're doing it yourself then you probably would do it a bit like that. Makes sense to do small sections at a time if doing the job at home.

You mix up all the paint in one go to make sure the colour is the same on every panel.

The charged electron method involves charging the cars metal structure with positive electrons and then negivatively charging the paint so they are attracted to each other.

ejenner
3rd March 2009, 11:14 AM
good old wiki: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrophoretic_deposition

Matthew
4th March 2009, 11:35 AM
The loose panels from my 900 that I refurbished were electrophoretically coated.

Keep up chaps! :lol:

ejenner
4th March 2009, 11:44 AM
Wasn't claiming it was a new idea or anything. The technique was first thought up in the 1920's IIRC from reading the article. All I'm saying is if I were to do it all again I would probably do it as above. And you didn't really follow that plan either as you were also not indending to do a full restore. That's just how I'd do it if I decided to do this again one day.

Matthew
4th March 2009, 11:55 AM
Saab chassis were e-coated at the factory. It's all in the chassis factory manual.

Reckon your Carlsson will be ready for the 14th Kodak?
http://www.saabcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=150922

ejenner
4th March 2009, 12:12 PM
hmm... quite unlikely. I need to take some time off work and have another crack at it.

ejenner
9th March 2009, 04:26 PM
Weekend update.

Saturday = nothing... messing around doing other things.

Sunday, work done but rainy in the afternoon.

I put in the final bit of metal to seal up the hole at the front corner of the wheelarch. This was a tricky bit as it was a really odd shape. But I got it done. So now the corner of the wheelarch is solid metal. Excellent!

I gave the bare metal a bit of a dusting with a spray can for some initial protection. Then I started filling over the top of the repair to get the shape perfect and to cover up the joins. I actually have nothing against filler as long as there is good metal underneath and it's not just packed into crunchy rust flakes - this is what gives filler a bad name! The next stage is to shape this filler with some rough sandpaper to bring it back to the right shape and so it is basically smooth. Then I will need to fill it again and sand it back to get it smooth and ready for painting. I am also going to use filler inside to get a smooth duct for channelling the water down to the drain hole. This is key to preventing future rust problems but could not have been done at the factory due to time & cost. What they had was pretty good... but I'm hoping to improve.

I'm going to paint using the compressor rather than spray cans. The finish will be much better and it will cost a lot less for the paint. I'm going to mask up the surrounding area and paint the whole inner wheelarch... not just the front bit. On the outside I'm going to mask some straight lines so my new paint does not run over the existing paint. That will be below bumper level so could even be in a different colour as it won't be visible.

http://www.red-green.co.uk/web/photos/gallery/images/mid/rust_repair_006.jpg


I've been playing around with the aero seats again.

Here is the late c900 manual seat-rail bolted to the bottom of the aero seat. This gives two vertical legs that can be joined to the floorpan. The floorpan will need to be adjusted to get this to work.

http://www.red-green.co.uk/web/photos/gallery/images/mid/aero_seats_005.jpg

http://www.red-green.co.uk/web/photos/gallery/images/mid/aero_seats_006.jpg

http://www.red-green.co.uk/web/photos/gallery/images/mid/aero_seats_007.jpg


I also started playing around with the spring supports. I've got new front ones and I'm going to get some rear ones as well. I think this will greatly improve ride quality.

Full story here: http://www.saabcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=151423

http://www.red-green.co.uk/web/photos/gallery/images/mid/spring_support_001.jpg

http://www.red-green.co.uk/web/photos/gallery/images/mid/spring_support_002.jpg

fliptopbin
9th March 2009, 08:48 PM
Looking good!

Just one thing - I understood that filler is hydroscopic (sp?) - that is, it attracts water - which is one of the reasons that "filled" repairs don't last all that long.

I may be way off the mark though.

ejenner
9th March 2009, 09:37 PM
once filled you then seal with a water-tight paint coat. You have to be very highly skilled to be able to perfectly shape ever piece of metal and even then to avoid using filler you would have to use lead-lining (i.e. bashing lead into the holes to smooth the surface) there's no real way round it. Even the original manufacturing technique uses spot-welding to join the pannels and this leaves gaps in the body where water gets in and rusts from the inside out. Different levels of effort will produce different levels of success.

fliptopbin
11th March 2009, 07:47 PM
What you say makes sense of course - I guess it's good on new metal when sealed properly, just if a bodged rust repair or moisture is getting in from behind.

My wheelarch had a "professional" repair - £400 including rear quarter respray. The paint isn't broken but 2 years on there is a bubble there again (first saw it reappear within a year of the original repair :(

No substitute for replacement metal in my case, certainly...

ejenner
12th March 2009, 06:34 AM
If you ever watch any of the expensive American car builds on telly they will take an old car and cover the whole thing with filler. Then they use great big flat sanding blocks to sand it all back smooth and consistant. Then the whole thing is covered with multiple paint coats and then loads of clear coat. I've only seen one guy doing it differently on 'Salvage Squad' - he restores old British classics like Rollers, Astons, Bristols, Bentleys, ect, ect... he is great at perfectly shaping metal so it is the same shape as the original pannel and then he can also weld it perfectly into place as well. The welding is so good that no filler is needed. If he does use filler then he uses lead rather than epoxy stuff. That is obviously the best way to do it but you have to be highly skilled and experienced and you need lots of equipment. Your average body repair shop will never do it this way... they will do it more like the way I'm doing it... except, as I have discovered, sometimes without even repairing rust and just filling straight over!

fliptopbin
12th March 2009, 06:41 AM
Yes, I think that may have happened it my case too! ;)

ejenner
12th March 2009, 06:47 AM
The guy that does the good stuff is based in west london somewhere. But can't remember the name of the place.

ejenner
16th March 2009, 06:40 PM
The repair is shaping up quite well.

http://www.red-green.co.uk/web/photos/gallery/images/mid/rust_repair_010.jpg


I splashed a bit of paint on the repair just to keep the damp out. Looks a bit crap. But it's only there to keep the water out and to show the imperfections so I know what needs further work and what just needs a bit of smoothing.

The shape on the lower edge as it goes around underneath is very original looking. Where the new metal has been added in there is a bit of a step visible on the curved edge of the arch. Should be able to get that smoothed out.

I also spent some time on the battery tray and while I was working I found a new patch of rust in the boot area - quite big. It seems the drainage hole for the cabin-vent on that side of the car was draining water into the boot instead of straight out the bottom like it should. So the underseal in the boot peeled off really eaisly and all the rust was visible. I've sanded down and now applied rust converter. Don't really want to get heavily involved in rust repair work so not going to replace, just repair. I reckon it's not too far gone so will paint it as part of the job on the battery tray.

Slotted the aero seat into the passenger side of the shell to see how it fits. It looks like it should be do-able... next step is to make up a little frame that's similar dimensions to the seat-rails on the bottom of the seat. Then I can work on getting the sliding 900 rails fitted in a suitable position so they match the frame (which matches the bottom of the seat) - Once the 900 rails are securely fixed to the chassis I can bolt the seats to those rails and I will have a sliding base for the seats to attach to. Testing the sliding mechanisim with the seats out of the car seems to work well, even with someone sitting on the seat... but then again, thinking about it... that's what these rails are designed to do - so makes sense that they work!

ejenner
21st March 2009, 04:59 PM
Worked on the rust in the boot today.

http://www.red-green.co.uk/web/photos/gallery/images/mid/boot_rust_001.jpg


I was wondering how to fix the edges of the drainage hole but then thought I'd check the parts car to see if I could take a bit from that instead. Luckily, the bit on the parts car was perfect.

http://www.red-green.co.uk/web/photos/gallery/images/mid/boot_rust_002.jpg



So put the new piece over the hole and draw around it. Then cut the hole.

http://www.red-green.co.uk/web/photos/gallery/images/mid/boot_rust_003.jpg


Piece welded in place.

http://www.red-green.co.uk/web/photos/gallery/images/mid/boot_rust_004.jpg


Ground the welds back smooth

http://www.red-green.co.uk/web/photos/gallery/images/mid/boot_rust_005.jpg


Used the wire wheel to remove the last of the brown rust and get it all shiney looking. Then applied a thick coat of primer which I will rub back tomorrow.

http://www.red-green.co.uk/web/photos/gallery/images/mid/boot_rust_006.jpg



I'm quite pleased with this repair. It went really well. I'm thinking about removing all of the thick tar boot lining as it seems to encourage rust rather than prevent it. Maybe in the daily-driving situation when people would treat the car rough and chuck loads of old rubbish into the boot under-floor area the tar might have kept the metal protected. But after so much time it seems to allow the water to get behind and encourage rust. I think the other side needs doing as well. I'll look at that tomorrow.

I took the exhaust off the parts car last week. I'm going to put this onto the Carlsson as something to get started with before getting a custom exhaust or an Abbotts Racing exhaust or likewise build my own or a JT exhaust... I can see a couple of little holes which I will need to weld up. It's a pretty tatty exhaust but it will do for the moment.

ejenner
21st March 2009, 05:04 PM
I think I'm going to put the car up on axel stands tomorrow. Will get it raised up nice and high so I can get around under it. Will take all the wheels off and get cracking with all the horrible underneath bits. Drop off the rusty back axel in preparation for fitting the refurbished one.