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Just needing a little help and/or a few suggestions

2K views 19 replies 9 participants last post by  fusionrx 
#1 ·
Well iam soon comming into a little bit of money from a accident a while ago. From the money iam taking a amount of 5 gran for performance for my saab. My goal is to hit 300 Whp-350 Tq.

I plan to upgrading to a t28 turbo along with 3" downpipe. Iam getting a custom 2.5" magnaflow exhaust done for my car this up comming week. My buddies step pop owns a shop and is doing it for me. Also iam going to get forge dump valve, 3.5fpr, i already have an intake. Ill be getting the ets drop in intercooler. And last but not least stage 3 tune from nordic.

I shall be upgrading with a full suspension and brake very soon after these mods. Just need help and suggestions on anything that i missed or over looked and just should know. I dont really want to order the wrong stuff or not enough stuff. Thanks.
 
#2 ·
Which pistons do you plan to fit?
 
#5 ·
Chris 9-5 said:
Which pistons do you plan to fit?
Didnt plan on getting upgraded pistons because i would have to pay a local shop to do the motor and that i wont be able to afford on top of everything. Would i still be ok on stage 3 with a t28 turbo or would it be best to do the whole setup and just get a new t25 turbo or even upgrade to a td04 turbo. I see why you asked that because ill probally blow the motor. Whats the most the 2.3 liter (2,290 cc, 140 cu.in.) non aero motor handle? If anyone knows. Becuase i bought my car used i want to replace the turbo anyway because with stage 3 i dont think its going to last long.
 
#6 ·
Unofficially 300 hp tend to be borderline for 2.3 engine with original pistons,there are many exceptions,but there are even more melted pistons also.
Pistons from 9000 turbo also are stronger than 9-5s and cheaper than forged,however JE set from GS is much cheaper than European Wossner and are also option.
You car is 99MY,may be you'll need new injectors for 300 hp and absolutely sure for over that power.
ETS cooler is great upgrade,may be you'll consider a set of T5 cams to improve high rev breathing-Nick Taliaferro said that they are same for all T5 cars so they are easy to be found.
T28 will need new exhaust manifold and dawn pipe or just new connection and little play with d-pipe.
Whatever you'll do the car will become completely different beast.;)
 
#7 ·
Etrimble said:
Speaking of pistons, is anyone here using the JE forged pistons from Genuinesaab? I'm thinking of having them put into my car as my engine blew a couple weeks ago..Sorry to hijack your thread! >.>;
I've used JE pistons in a few things and never really been that impressed with them. Not really any finesse to the design and I did have one fail in a very odd way.

To be honest I tend to shy away from using Forged pistons in a road engine that wasn't developed with them in mind. Wossner seem to have good reports and I have had various sets of pistons made by Accralite in the past without issue.

Worth noting though a finger in the air estimate is you'll not see more than 80K out the engine with Forged pistons in it due to bore errosion and you're likely to see an increase in oil useage due to a fair whack of blowby on cold start.

Do the B234 Pistons not fit? IIRC 235 and 234 are both a 90mm bore. These with either 234 rods (assuming big ends are the same) or a good steel rod should see you with a reliable 400bhp engine package which should do a lot more than 80K without needing to be opened (assuming you are a road drive and its not a race car ;-))

Cheers
Icy
 
#8 ·
Worth noting though a finger in the air estimate is you'll not see more than 80K out the engine with Forged pistons in it due to bore errosion and you're likely to see an increase in oil useage due to a fair whack of blowby on cold start.
Brrrr,you make me scare:roll:.No way to increase the engine life with good oil-I'm using Motul Competition series with 6000km changes,what else can I do?
The first 12000 km after I put Wossners inside,the compression is still 12.
 
#9 ·
DoctorPhill said:
Brrrr,you make me scare:roll:.No way to increase the engine life with good oil-I'm using Motul Competition series with 6000km changes,what else can I do?
The first 12000 km after I put Wossners inside,the compression is still 12.
I'd put a fiver on the Wossners being a better cold fit than the JE's so you might make it a bit further!

The issue with forged pistons in engines with bores designed (and run through durability on cast pistons) is two fold. Firstly the forged piston, due to the material it is made from, expands more with head, therefore it must be a 'looser' fit in the bore from cold so when it is upto temperature and has reached its peak of expansion it is a good fit within the bore. A cast piston expands much less with heat than a forged piston and as such is a much better fit from cold.

On cold start in an engine with forged pistons there will be some degree of piston slap i.e. the piston is able to move within the bore and in extreme cases will rattle against the bore on its upwards and downwards movement (see Cosworth YB engine post 50K miles). This has the effect of erroding the bore and unfortunately there isn't much of a way around that, some piston manufacturers teflon coat the bores which helps but in the real world doesn't make a great deal of difference. Due to the differences in design, production and material however some manufacturers pistons are far better in this respect than others.

The second issue is due to the differences in material 'hardness' between a forged piston and a cast piston. It depends a lot of the bore material and design but with soft bores the forged piston can wear the bore rather than the bore wearing the piston. Most obvious early sign of this is the honing marks disapearing on the East/West sides of the bore (when viewed from the front, pulley, end of the engine), this can be checked with a bore scope via the plug holes.

In short you are going to have some issues eventualy with oval bores when using forged pistons in an engine with bores designed for cast.

The Saab engines are way better than some though as they are a good quality steel block. Nikasil ally blocks don't take kindly to them at all!! Worth noting as well this issue isn't only forged piston specific, certain types of cast will cause the same issues and certain bore materials will react badly under certain circumstances leading to the same issue but the opposite way around (i.e. oval pistons). It's all to do with material mis-match really.

Obviously good oil helps but what you have to bear in mind is that if the piston is running up the bore on its 'edges' then the oil is having to work very very hard and can fail to prevent metal on metal contact as the pressure is concentrated on two very small points rather than over a much greater amount of surface area. If you have the facilities to pre heat the engine before using it (as we do on the endurance car) that helps a lot as it brings everything upto the low end of running temperature before the engine is started. However this isn't really possible in a road car, the most important thing on a road engine with forged pistons is keep the revs and loads low from a cold start, this doesn't mean let it idle for ages as you'll generate no decent heat and therefore the pistons still won't be up to size. Drive it but gently ;-)

I like good quality cast pistons as it effectively means you can nail the car from cold with very little issue. See deep thermal shock durability testing!!

Cheers
Icy
 
#10 ·
And if the forged pistons eat my block what should I do-ruin another one from scrap yard or may I insert some kind of "forged cylinder walls" into?:eek:
 
#11 ·
DoctorPhill said:
And if the forged pistons eat my block what should I do-ruin another one from scrap yard or may I insert some kind of "forged cylinder walls" into?:eek:
New/used block. Not really much you can do unless you bore and liner it with a suitable material but thats a very expensive option. Just run it, if you look after it and baby it from cold it'll last 80 - 100K miles........ which is 95K - 100K miles more than it would running 350bhp on standard internals LOL

Cheers
Icy
 
#13 ·
numbersix said:
Can I ask why you plan on increasing power significantly first and not doing suspension/brake upgrades first?
Because well i dont want to do a bit of both i just want to go all out on one thing and get it out of the way. Um i feel the car handles and brakes well now, but with 300whp its a different story. Its not that iam going so crazy on power and nothing else. as soon as i get a nice bit more power out of my car, iam putting a full suspension and brake upgrade on my car as well.
 
#14 ·
Go for 17" or 18'' wheels also, if you are with 16'' rims-the handling improves a lot.
 
#15 ·
How many miles are on your car? Have the suspension or brakes been upgraded yet?

Pirelli used to have an ad slogan that rings very true, especially in this case: "Power is nothing without control."

If your car is currently 170 or 185hp stock (assuming it's still near stock output, which depending on mileage/upkeep/condition it may or may not be), the current suspension and brake setup is likely adequate.

Now add 115-130hp to your current setup. Do you think you will be able to overdrive those brakes? How about the suspension--will it handle the effects of the added torque through the front wheels? What about your current wheel/tire setup--are they adequate?

You can't build a house without a solid foundation--and doing so is likely to end up with something that is very unstable and possibly dangerous to you and/or others around you.

I highly recommend you take $1000 and invest it in new suspension (the Saab Roadholding kit from GS is a very cost-effective option) + at least upgrading to the OEM Aero front brakes + performance pads all around.

I'd also recommend in doing a couple of High Performance Driver Education days once you've performed the brake/suspension upgrades to learn how your car reacts under different circumstances while building your skills as a driver.

Once you do these things, feel free to crank up the boost and go for more HP!

-Jon
 
#16 ·
You make complete sense and i understand that. Dont take me wrong way i understand the control part. My buddy has a 2001 Supercharged Nissan Maxima. And damn it can move. We were going around some tight twisties and he lost control and only for driver skill his full suspension we would of flipped over a few times in the ditch.

5 Gran isnt the total amount i will be spending. Iam getting a full suspension ordered with all the goodies i need for stage 3. Along with a set of rotors and good pads. Ill probally pick up some sway bars, i jsut found out the other day i can get a strut bar as well so i shall be getting that. Other then stage 3 and suspension, Iam getting a new set of 18's on toyo proxy tires and some interior/exterior things. Again thanks for all the help. And suggestions. I think if i want to go with a bigger turbo and make 300+ whp iam looking at alot more money then what i have planned so stage 3 and suspension/will be good.

Now if only my lawyer would hurry up and get me my money lol. O and the mileage on my car is 160k. It needs a tune up which it shall be getting asap.
 
#17 ·
At 160k, you'd want to ensure you did a pretty thorough once-over of most major systems in the car before you start adding go-fast bits.

Installing perfromance parts like a bigger turbo and remapped ECU add a substantial amount of stress to a significant number of components. If any of them are in substandard condition, it can lead to catastrophic engine/transmission failure and/or an accident. I'm thinking of everything from vacuum lines and radiator hoses to brake lines...and much more.

Take care of the basics (tune up, all fluids, all vaccum lines, radiator/heater hoses, belts, tensioners, etc), then ensure you have a solid platform for upgrading (suspension/brakes), THEN add power.
 
#18 ·
Saab999-5 said:
Didnt plan on getting upgraded pistons because i would have to pay a local shop to do the motor and that i wont be able to afford on top of everything. Would i still be ok on stage 3 with a t28 turbo or would it be best to do the whole setup and just get a new t25 turbo or even upgrade to a td04 turbo. I see why you asked that because ill probally blow the motor. Whats the most the 2.3 liter (2,290 cc, 140 cu.in.) non aero motor handle? If anyone knows. Becuase i bought my car used i want to replace the turbo anyway because with stage 3 i dont think its going to last long.
So what size Turbo are you thinking? The Aero comes with a TD04 5cm I think, you can get a T25 from a 9000 but that was not originally fitted to the 9-5 so what are you thinking? ( It will fit but needs to be clocked )

I have a T25 with T28 on both compressor and turbine side and it just about hits 300 WHP ( on a dynojet 260 on a Mustang) That turbo is probably good for the 2.0 moter but tends to get a bit laggy in the 2.3 cause of the volume of air you are moving.

With the money you are talking and the $$ you have you can get a TD04 upgrade, stage 3-4 tune and IC and run 260 or so WHP/300tq and you will really know it... no need to go any further till you have real money. and the 40 HP will not be missed
 
#19 ·
Jssaab said:
So what size Turbo are you thinking? The Aero comes with a TD04 5cm I think, you can get a T25 from a 9000 but that was not originally fitted to the 9-5 so what are you thinking? ( It will fit but needs to be clocked )

I have a T25 with T28 on both compressor and turbine side and it just about hits 300 WHP ( on a dynojet 260 on a Mustang) That turbo is probably good for the 2.0 moter but tends to get a bit laggy in the 2.3 cause of the volume of air you are moving.

With the money you are talking and the $$ you have you can get a TD04 upgrade, stage 3-4 tune and IC and run 260 or so WHP/300tq and you will really know it... no need to go any further till you have real money. and the 40 HP will not be missed
You read my mind...i was just going to ask that...id like to get a new TD04 turbo,with the stage 3-4. 260whp and 300tq i i would be completely happy with untill i get into building the motor. So i would need intake,exhaust(which i have) downpipe, intercooler,ecu tuned,TD04(where can i buy a brand new one?) and i would be good. Id also pick up the Forged dump valve,Fpr. That seem like a more reasonable goal for such an early stage of owning a saab?
 
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