SaabCentral Forums banner

Koni FSD

3K views 36 replies 9 participants last post by  Raven18940 
#1 ·
Hello All,

I am putting a spec together for a 9-5 Aero to replace my current car. Need more room etc. etc. and like Saabs (have had a few). Probably a 2002/2003 model with a budget of around 10K.

I noticed Koni produce an FSD damper for the 9-5 and was wondering if anyone has used them? Theory behind them is sound, much like a conventional three way adjustable damper in that they have seperate rates for fast and slow bound but no substitute for some first hand feedback!

My suspension budget is 1500 quid or so which gives me sufficent room to have Nitron produce some three way adjustable coilovers for me and to machine up some spherical bearing top mouts to suit. However its going to be a road car and as such tinkering with geo etc is going to be a one shot (and mild) affair, hence all this is a bit OTT ......... assuming I can purchase something off the shelf with damp and bound rates fairly suitable for a road going Aero running around 20%/35% increased spring rate F/R.

Thanks in advance.
Icy

P.S. Rest of the spec is sorted and I am happy to bore you with it if required ;-)
 
See less See more
#3 ·
Icarus said:
Hello All,

I am putting a spec together for a 9-5 Aero to replace my current car. Need more room etc. etc. and like Saabs (have had a few). Probably a 2002/2003 model with a budget of around 10K.

I noticed Koni produce an FSD damper for the 9-5 and was wondering if anyone has used them? Theory behind them is sound, much like a conventional three way adjustable damper in that they have seperate rates for fast and slow bound but no substitute for some first hand feedback!

My suspension budget is 1500 quid or so which gives me sufficent room to have Nitron produce some three way adjustable coilovers for me and to machine up some spherical bearing top mouts to suit. However its going to be a road car and as such tinkering with geo etc is going to be a one shot (and mild) affair, hence all this is a bit OTT ......... assuming I can purchase something off the shelf with damp and bound rates fairly suitable for a road going Aero running around 20%/35% increased spring rate F/R.

Thanks in advance.
Icy

P.S. Rest of the spec is sorted and I am happy to bore you with it if required ;-)
Crikey.........does seems a bit OTT for a road car, most people seem to bulk at the thought of spending just over a grand on the lovely Hirsch suspension kit, which is probably the best sorted off the shelf kit you can buy.....:D
 
#4 · (Edited)
aeropilot said:
Crikey.........does seems a bit OTT for a road car, most people seem to bulk at the thought of spending just over a grand on the lovely Hirsch suspension kit, which is probably the best sorted off the shelf kit you can buy.....:D
No point scrimping on suspension IMHO as it makes or breaks a car in terms of comfort, handling and safety.

Hirsch won't give me any information on rates, which I can understand as its a lot less than a grand to have someone make something up with the same rates but at the same time I can't tell if its any use for what I want. I also suspect that whilst it is very good it will be a bit lacking in slow bound as obviosuly it is a single rate damper, which is something I want to avoid. Idealy I want to maintain almost standard compliance in all situations aside from low frequency loading i.e. when the car is subjected to high lateral G.

Outline specification is:

Engine based on Troll R Specification, standard'ish Turbo but with 6CM2 exhaust housing (no real point going T28 route as this was mostly to meet high altitude demands). Usual downpipe and exhaust combination. I have a DAMOS and Troll-R cal (....waits for call from Saab ;-) ) so may tweek some bits of the cal to suit.

Brakes: Brembo high carbon content discs front and rear in standard sizes, AP 4 piston radial mount calipers front, AP 2 piston radial mount calipers rear. DS2500 friction material. Usual aeroquip hoses. Front brake cooling.

Wheels/Tyres: BBS CH 18" X 8", 235/40/18 Dunlop Sport Maxx

Suspension: TBC, will be a bit of poly bushing in there, perhaps some nylon but don't want to run into NVH issues hence no solid bearings in place of bushes. Adjustable anti-roll bar links to remove pre-load.

Exterior: Hirsch lip spoiler, some underfloor paneling for aero reasons, subtle front splitter, vented front wings for aero reasons.

Interior: Carbon dash, Pioneer touch screen sat nav etc. etc.

Lot of other boring bits regarding hoses, boost pipes etc.

Cheers
Icy
 
#5 ·
Icarus said:
Hirsch won't give me any information on rates, which I can understand as its a lot less than a grand to have someone make something up with the same rates but at the same time I can't tell if its any use for what I want. I also suspect that whilst it is very good it will be a bit lacking in slow bound as obviosuly it is a single rate damper, which is something I want to avoid. Idealy I want to maintain almost standard compliance in all situations aside from low frequency loading i.e. when the car is subjected to high lateral G.

Suspension: TBC, will be a bit of poly bushing in there, perhaps some nylon but don't want to run into NVH issues hence no solid bearings in place of bushes. Adjustable anti-roll bar links to remove pre-load.
Hirsch won't give you any info.
But, the Hirsch suspension on it's progressive springs is more compliant than the standard Aero, and better than most off the shelf aftermarket kits.

However, you're contemplateing doing something beyond what most have done with a 9-5 as far as I'm aware, so everyone here will certainley be interested in the end result.......:cool:

I wouldn't put any poly in at all if NVH is an issue for you.

Icarus said:
Engine based on Troll R Specification, standard'ish Turbo but with 6CM2 exhaust housing (no real point going T28 route as this was mostly to meet high altitude demands). Usual downpipe and exhaust combination. I have a DAMOS and Troll-R cal (....waits for call from Saab ;-) ) so may tweek some bits of the cal to suit.
What's DAMOS and the 'cal' from a Troll-R..........:confused:
 
#6 ·
You can get away with quite a bit of 'alternative' bush material if you take note of the directions of load and what you are bushing i.e. if you solid bush a link which bolts directly to the body then you are going to transmit a lot more 'vibration' to the body as the bush has no 'damping' built into it (lots of inverted commas I know but its a lot simplier to put it that way). Alternatively a bush into a bolt on component, such as a subframe, can be changed and allowed to transmit a greater amount of 'vibration' as there is much more surface and areas for this 'vibration' to be absorbed before it is transmitted to the body and therefore your backside. You can also use a stiff bush material at one end of a component and a softer material at the other (assuming the loads work out) as the softer bush will act to damp the component as whole. You do get into if that bush needs less compliance in whatever direction though as for the most part OEM bushes and suspension setups are pretty good in terms of compliance (and therefore NVH reduciton) over deflection under load. It's all good fun!

My aim with the car is just to build something I am happy with thats a good mile muncher but will still give a good account of itself if asked. In short lots of optimisation and very little in the way of compromising the cars road ability in return for out and out performance. Hence the issue with finding a suitable damper.

Cal is slang for Calibration, i.e. straight copy of whats in an ECU. DAMOS (there is also ASAP2 which is similar) is a bit complicated but basicaly it is a file format and relates to a development tool used when calibrating OEM ECU's that gives you scaling, labels, sampling points, map relations etc. etc. It is used in conjuction with a calibration and when combined gives you the ability to easily edit and workwith the maps within a calibration. Without a DAMOS/ASAP2 you are essentialy working blind and need to use lots of know how and specific tools to translate the raw hex of a calibration into something you can work and make sense of. In short if I decide to I can change the standard ECU calibration to do whatever I need, remap it as the kids say ;-)

Cheers
Icy
 
#7 ·
Icarus said:
Cal is slang for Calibration, i.e. straight copy of whats in an ECU. DAMOS (there is also ASAP2 which is similar) is a bit complicated but basicaly it is a file format and relates to a development tool used when calibrating OEM ECU's that gives you scaling, labels, sampling points, map relations etc. etc. It is used in conjuction with a calibration and when combined gives you the ability to easily edit and workwith the maps within a calibration. Without a DAMOS/ASAP2 you are essentialy working blind and need to use lots of know how and specific tools to translate the raw hex of a calibration into something you can work and make sense of. In short if I decide to I can change the standard ECU calibration to do whatever I need, remap it as the kids say ;-)
Interesting.....:confused:

So, which tool reads Trionic coding then, as it's always been believed that there is no off the shelf tool which will read Trionic, which is why the aftermarket tuners have always had to develop their own.
 
#9 ·
This: http://www.canusb.com/ or any other CAN interface and a laptop is all you need to actualy read and rewrite a T7 ECU in the car.

Have just had a quick look at the cal in WinOLS and there are four checksums in total. Which is pretty minor by todays standards - although one them is a tricky little git and really rather clever, bet it took loads of head scratching to work that one out!

Cheers
Icy
 
#10 ·
OK. you have my attention

Very curious to what you come up with. Way over the top for my needs, but I may steal an idea or two from you if they look promising (mind you at this point, I'd just be happy if the cars stopped breaking expensive parts).
 
#13 ·
i want an aero said:
i have koni's on my car not sure which ones;oops:. maybe chris could tell you;)
Effin hard ones :cheesy: But they are the yellow ones not FSD's ;)
 
#14 ·
Chris 9-5 said:
Effin hard ones :cheesy: But they are the yellow ones not FSD's ;)
LOL that sounds about right. I may have to give them a go as it doesn't half make things simple! At least Koni supply the rates for damp/slow damp ;-)

Cheers
Icy

P.S. If you see them for sale in the classifieds then you know they weren't what I was after LOL
 
#15 ·
Icarus said:
So anyway back to the original point, has any one tried the Koni FSD damper on their 9-5? ;-)
Not heard of or seen report of anyone fitting FSD's to a 9-5 as yet.

I recall a few 9-3SS owners have fitted them and not been overly impressed by them.......but that maybe because it's a 9-3.....:p
 
#16 ·
You may well be the first and only so we're keen to hear your feedback ;)
 
#17 ·
I'll be sure to let you all know.

I'm waiting for some technical data from a contact who was part of the team that speced the first production car use of the FSD damper so I'll be making my decision after I have seen that.

Will keep you posted ;-)

Cheers
M
 
#19 ·
http://www.partsforsaabs.com/product_info.php?cPath=2_189_208&products_id=3494



9-5 02'-05' all models Koni FSD Dampers (4)


Click to enlarge
Set of Four Koni FSD Dampers

To Fit: Saab 9-5 Saloon/Sedan & Estate all models 2002 to 2005

KONI FSD: THE FIRST SHOCK ABSORBER OFFERING SUPERIOR ROAD HOLDING WITHOUT COMPROMISING COMFORT

KONI introduces the first no-compromise shock absorber in the world. In other words: a complete turn around in road-holding. Until recently you had a choice between shock absorbers that were either more firm or more comfortable. Cars with firm suspension do have better road-holding but there is a trade-off in the level of comfort.

KONI FSD: Frequency Selective Damping

A revolutionary new technique whereby the benefits of both types of ride are combined in one perfect shock absorber.

As advanced as FSD is in operation, the basic principle behind it is astoundingly simple. No electronics or sensors are used. The FSD technology id based purely on hydraulics.

Put simply, FSD actively controls the damping level on the basis of the movement frequency of both the car's body as well as suspension. It responds even more responsively than electronic systems do.



Ref: PFS903495 RRP: £525.00
US $880.94
per item(s)
PFS Price: £498.75
US $836.89
per item(s)
EU Currency prices include VAT at 17.5% [?]
 
#21 ·
Heard bad things about those FSD's. Heard they were too soft and felt too much like the stock shock and didn't get any stiffer when you drove them hard. Basically didn't do what was advertised. However, that may be exactly what your looking for. I, for one, liked a little stiffer, more responsive ride that would lessen body roll while still giving me a comfortable ride... So I went with the Bilstein HD's. :cool:
 
#22 ·
Right,

Had a red bull at lunchtime and found some motivation to model the front suspension on a 9-5 fitted with FSD dampers, standard ARB rates, assumed standard bush rates etc.

Worth noting its not an accurate model as I don't have a 9-5 or the blue prints handy to take all the measurements off so had to take an educated guess. However its close enough to give a comparison between standard and FSD which is all I'm after.


Range of motion.


Deflection in roll.


Car under lateral load.

The FSD's do seem to do the trick! Although the off the shelf version is a little too soft under high frequency movement for the spring rates I want to run. I want compliance but at the same time I don't want a soggy feeling car when its not under load. Need to have a word with Koni and see if they'll do me some units to my spec.


Cheers
Icy
 
#23 ·
SectorNine50 said:
Heard bad things about those FSD's. Heard they were too soft and felt too much like the stock shock and didn't get any stiffer when you drove them hard. Basically didn't do what was advertised. However, that may be exactly what your looking for. I, for one, liked a little stiffer, more responsive ride that would lessen body roll while still giving me a comfortable ride... So I went with the Bilstein HD's. :cool:
See above ;) from the standard FSD rates they are very much meant to be paired with and OEM spring rate. Using them with a high spring rate will make them horrible as they just don't have the rate to match. If people have been fitting them with none standard springs them I'm not surprised they weren't very impressed.

Hoping I can comission some with a suitable rate and height as the technology is very good. OEM on the Gallardo!

Cheers
Icy
 
#24 ·
What kind of work do you do that lets you have access to advanced modelling software?


Also, is your reference to a Gallardo, a reference to your other car?

/me envisions bumper sticker "My other car is a Saab" on the Gallardo. :cheesy:

Are you planning on taking your car to the ridiculously amazing level that Teacher Hsia has??
 
#25 ·
Icarus said:
See above ;) from the standard FSD rates they are very much meant to be paired with and OEM spring rate. Using them with a high spring rate will make them horrible as they just don't have the rate to match. If people have been fitting them with none standard springs them I'm not surprised they weren't very impressed.

Hoping I can comission some with a suitable rate and height as the technology is very good. OEM on the Gallardo!

Cheers
Icy
Yup, from what I understand the guy had them on stock springs, just like I have my Bilsteins on stock springs. ;) But it's really all about preference.
 
#26 ·
fusionrx said:
What kind of work do you do that lets you have access to advanced modelling software?


Also, is your reference to a Gallardo, a reference to your other car?

/me envisions bumper sticker "My other car is a Saab" on the Gallardo. :cheesy:

Are you planning on taking your car to the ridiculously amazing level that Teacher Hsia has??
Ha ha I wish, No Lamborghini in my garage I'm afraid. Purely a reference to the fact that the MY08 Gallardo has FSD dampers as standard.

Afraid I don't know who Teacher Hsia is but to clarify my car isn't going to be a massive power type thing, circa 300bhp is the target on a standard 235R, as this is the highest level the 235R passed reduced cycle durability testing at (in the Hirsch Troll-R). My aim is an extremely well engineered package that will be my road car for the next three years or so. I want a minimum of 150K refresh interval on engine, box and suspension components and items such as bearings, bushes etc. will be lifed to meet this - front wheel bearings will be fun!

I suppose you could say the plan is for a "Super Aero" in that it may not have 500bhp but it is a complete evolution of the standard Aero in terms of performance, reliability, comfort etc. Basic aim is to improve it in as many areas as possible without compromising what was there as standard.

Cheers
Icy
 
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Top