T5'ed c900 heavily modified [Archive] - SaabCentral Forums

: T5'ed c900 heavily modified


Pages : [1] 2 3

Turbofrenzy
23rd January 2008, 02:58 PM
Well here we go.
This my first post, so I'll give you some history.
I am an ex Saab Master Technician (16 years main dealer experience 1985-2001) , who now lives in the middle of France and works with a small fleet of hire boats.
I've always had a passion for the 900 T16, so bought a cheap example 2 years ago 1990 ABS, Air Con, Aero kit with 326,000 kilometres on the clock, the engine had a slight knock and the pinion bearing were noisey, headlining adrift, some scratches on the paintwork, minor dents on the bootlid, but no major rust................
Last February (2007) I removed the engine and gearbox (please note I have none of the special tools required), stripped the engine, replaced the timing chain, oil pump, big end and main bearing shells. I stripped the gearbox and replaced the pinion bearings (I did have to go to my local agricultual garage, he pressed the old bearings off), whilst doing the above bearings I found the layshaft had a load of broken teeth S***, luckily enough I had another gearbox which my good friend SaabMatt gave me when I was over on holiday, the geargox ofcourse WASN'T the same, but however after alot of head scratching, I used the following:-
My gearbox casing with pinion shaft and new bearings
Layshaft from the other gearbox
My gearset except 2nd, my syncro's and bulkrings
2nd gear from other gearbox
My selectors 1 which I had to straighten
with new seal and gasket kit
All nicely mounted on engine, at this point I had sourced a 2.3 long head , which I duely ported, cut back valve guides and matched to the gasket and 2.1 injection inlet manifold, this all fitted a treat to the engine with T16 cams and injection rail, the only slight mods were to the air con compressor mounting and some spacers under the fuel rail mountings.
I then refitted the engine/gearbox assembly, now this was a right **** for some reason, I struggled eventually all ok, started engine no probs, just like the good old days.
Refitted the bonnet on my own, nightmare also.
Went on roadtest, **** 2 major problems:-
1. only basic boost pressure, although she had plenty of pull/torque, struggling with the bonnet i'd broken the solenoid valve;oops:
2. she wouldn't stay in 3rd gear, my first thought OH NO take the whole lot back out http://www.saabcentral.com/forums/images/icons/icon_idea.gif, back to basics........................
http://www.saabcentral.com/forums/images/icons/icon14.gif Check and adjust gearlinkage, it only seemed to be slightly out.
Roadtest, basic boost but otherwise OK
I sourced a solenoid valve on ebay, duely fitted full boost.
I then ran the car around gently for a while..........
Off on hols with car to see my ladyfriend at her newly aquired retaurant down in the South West 500km.
On the trip I got a whiff burning gearbox oil from time to time hummmmmm, arrived safely, looked under car **** oil everywhere, on further investigation the leak was from behind the clutch slave cylinder , lucky I had my toolkit. I removed the clutch and slave cylinder, not a job for the faint hearted without the special tools, but I managed, sure enough the seal on the input shaft behind the slave cylinder was pouring oil out (the only one that didn't come in the gasket/seal kit), no chance of getting a part, so I cut up a piece of carpet in the shape of a large washer, so it fitted over the shaft, behind the slave cylinder, cleaned everything, refitted, topped up gear oil and drove back after my hols.
Needless to say I had oil everywhere, so ordered the seal and did the whole lot again (what fun, :roll: NOT)
Since then i've fitted the JR filter element (I live in France and they don't like tuning mods, bodykits and wheels seem ok but not performance mods)
The best mod i've done so far is the APC box, for a few euro's i've gained 29bhp (i've one of those performance meters you mount on the dash/windscreen and I did before and after tests) she gets a maximum of 1.5 bar boost which does knock back to 1.2 then builds back up, but holds 1 bar at the red line (please note the turbo is standard)
Since I have fitted a front mounted intercooler, with pipework from the breakers yard (cheaper and looks more standard than expensive silicone and polished ally)
After all this she goes really well, but the real power comes in 4th and 5th at above French motorway speed limits 130kmh.

I would like to get some more bottom end pull if anyone has some ideas http://www.saabcentral.com/forums/images/icons/icon_idea.gifhttp://www.saabcentral.com/forums/images/icons/icon12.gif


I also fitted an extra air intake to the filter housing from the front spoiler
Fitted the obligatory Whaletail and side air vent covers
Kilen lowered springs, Spax adjustable front shockabsorbers
17" 205/40/17 wheels and tyres:p but I do have some problems with tyres touching the arches on certain types of road.
Various polly suspension bushes
9000 front brake upgrade with modded BMW trackday pads and Goodrich hoses :p (maybe a problem for my "Control Technique")
The last mod was a Xenon HID kit, which does high and low beam, this works really well on low beam, but is a bit dispursed on high beam, also the pattern is not brilliant on the left headlight so I may have to change the glass and/or the reflector.
The next and hopefully most successfull mod is................
The Megasquirt kit arrived today, merci mr Sarkozy for 110 import tax:nono;
Firstly I must thank SaabDaniel for his advice on Megasquirt
I now have to build the kit and fit it to my car, this will take longer than normal because I live in France and my car needs to pass its "Control Technique" on or before March 8th, this is a 2 yearly event and is much like the annual UK "MOT", the only exception is they don't like modified cars, if they find too many mods your car has to undergo a stricter test which is called "Mines" I think. So we don't want to go down that road if I can help it. So some of it may have to be unmodified beforehand.
Incidently if you are still reading and have not fell asleep the car now has 339,000 km on the clock, goes like a bat out of hell, drinks gallons of fuel and has broken down once, a split top coolant hose, for which I topped up the water, limped her home the 10km and duely replaced.

philb
23rd January 2008, 03:12 PM
Excellent stuff!
I'm surprised that you are only getting full go in 4th and 5th, 3rd gear should make full boost and bring you up to the speed limit nicely :) You can also give it the beans in 2nd, but the boost comes on very suddenly in 2nd which aint great for the box.
I think you are looking for more lowend and offboost driveability, for this you will be very happy after fitting megasquirt. I'm running ignition on megasquirt now for a few months, and the lowend, off boost driveability and throttle response are greatly improved.

VikingSpirit
23rd January 2008, 03:18 PM
Welcome to Saab Central, read through you post with interest, sounds like one hell of a car you have there!
You know they say a picture is worth a 1000 words! :lol:

TheRedBaron
23rd January 2008, 03:35 PM
Sounds fun - where are you from originally?

Pics are a must :cool:

idiot_saabvant
23rd January 2008, 04:15 PM
You may want consider having moving your torque curve up in rpms and letting boost come on later. This will help with tranny wear and flexing and make your car fast as opposed to quick (which it is now). Several ways to do this, mostly with turbo revisions.

pierre

Turbofrenzy
23rd January 2008, 05:24 PM
Hi philb

I think its just the way I explained it 1st and 2nd the motor revs out quickly so you don't get full boost, 3rd is better about 1.2, 1.3 bar and 4th, 5th max, its all proportional so to speak.
I am happy with the top end, in fact I might reduce the boost to 1.3 bar.

Your car must be Lucas injection, did you have any real problems getting Megasquirt working, reagrding the injection system 1st of all?

I plan to use it for the injection 1st then the ignition and maybe the turbo eventually.



Excellent stuff!
I'm surprised that you are only getting full go in 4th and 5th, 3rd gear should make full boost and bring you up to the speed limit nicely :) You can also give it the beans in 2nd, but the boost comes on very suddenly in 2nd which aint great for the box.
I think you are looking for more lowend and offboost driveability, for this you will be very happy after fitting megasquirt. I'm running ignition on megasquirt now for a few months, and the lowend, off boost driveability and throttle response are greatly improved.

saabmatt
23rd January 2008, 07:41 PM
Alright Soft Lad!

Or should I say Turbofrenzy!

A picture of the old heap in France! and a nice 900 (saabmatt's) in the UK!


http://www.terrimoore.co.uk/matt/clive.jpg

http://www.terrimoore.co.uk/matt/matt.jpg

TheRedBaron
23rd January 2008, 11:53 PM
Great looking cars!

KurBads
24th January 2008, 04:44 AM
just to better understand: Is there any benefits of megasquirting a standard (unmodified) T16 Lucas? I understand that fuel/ignition on megasquirt is adjusted at best for every motor load, it`s necessary when aiming at high bhp, when hawing high boost and needing to supply enough fuel and ajust timing ...

but does megasquirt makes sense on an unmodified car?

unkleG'sif
24th January 2008, 08:01 AM
megasquirt makes perfect sense on an unmodified car, if you are planning on adding modifications later


set the system working in a stock state, to get the most performance, economy etc.... then, maybe add a bigger turbo with some injectors and a FMIC. obviously as megasquirt is completey tunable, you will then be able to retune it, again to get the best out of the new setup, so essentially you are starting with something that will be adapted and changed as you progress through your modifications,rather than "make do" withe th Lucas or Bosch and TEN fit megasquirt... if that makes any sense

G

KurBads
24th January 2008, 08:16 AM
megasquirt makes perfect sense on an unmodified car, if you are planning on adding modifications later


set the system working in a stock state, to get the most performance, economy etc.... then, maybe add a bigger turbo with some injectors and a FMIC. obviously as megasquirt is completey tunable, you will then be able to retune it, again to get the best out of the new setup, so essentially you are starting with something that will be adapted and changed as you progress through your modifications,rather than "make do" withe th Lucas or Bosch and TEN fit megasquirt... if that makes any sense

G

fully agree, my Q is rather: will that (MS) be of any use installed on stock T16 and no further tuning done to use the potential of MS. Will MS give any immediate noticable effect alone?

philb
24th January 2008, 08:48 AM
Turbofrenzy: Yep that makes sense. You might want to try and get type 8 primaries, should be over 100kmh in 2nd gear then :)
I am only running ignition and boost control with megasquirt right now, lucas is still running the fuelling. It was not difficult to setup ignition control, after a lot of procrastination and research beforehand, I installed the wiring in about an hour, and then the engine started first time. Injection is obviously a bit more involved, and I haven't made as much progress as I would have liked on this recently, but I will be hooking up the sensors one by one, when I have tested them all with megasquirt. I'm making a connector to go direct from megasquirt to the ecu plug on the cars loom, re-using the factory wiring. Means I can plug it in and out while testing sensors, and also retain the old ecu as a backup until I'm happy with it.

Kurbads: You won't get much gain from megasquirt fuelling on a standard car, the lucas system is pretty good. But having fully mapped ignition is a decent advantage. Throttle response and off boost driveability greatly improved, as well as power at lower boost levels.

Turbofrenzy
24th January 2008, 11:46 AM
Hi i'm from Sussex in England originally, its great fun, thanksSounds fun - where are you from originally?

Pics are a must :cool:

Turbofrenzy
24th January 2008, 11:54 AM
Hi KurBads

There is a benefit to fitting Megasquirt to a standard motor, the original system has to pass various emmission perameters, so long as you can get a good CO reading at idle you should be able to pass your emmission test, aswell as gaining power in other places, later when you modify your car you can adjust the Fueling and/or ignition to suithttp://www.saabcentral.com/forums/images/icons/icon14.gif

just to better understand: Is there any benefits of megasquirting a standard (unmodified) T16 Lucas? I understand that fuel/ignition on megasquirt is adjusted at best for every motor load, it`s necessary when aiming at high bhp, when hawing high boost and needing to supply enough fuel and ajust timing ...

but does megasquirt makes sense on an unmodified car?

Turbofrenzy
24th January 2008, 12:00 PM
Hi Soapy or should I say SaabMatt
Mines still faster than yours:lol:

A picture of the old heap(saabmatt's) in the UK! The Black one
and a nice 900 in France! The Lowered grey one with the 17's:cool:

Turbofrenzy
24th January 2008, 12:08 PM
Hi Philb

Thanks for the gearing advice
I'm going to do the injection first, what I intend to do is solder the MS harness into the existing Lucas wiring below the dash, leaving both multiplugs intact so I can refit the Lucas cotrol unit if necessary.
I already have a 9000 IAT sensor and a bosch idle control valve.
I've bought a new soldering iron and magnifying glass, so I better stop typing and get soldering.;)


Turbofrenzy: Yep that makes sense. You might want to try and get type 8 primaries, should be over 100kmh in 2nd gear then :)
I am only running ignition and boost control with megasquirt right now, lucas is still running the fuelling. It was not difficult to setup ignition control, after a lot of procrastination and research beforehand, I installed the wiring in about an hour, and then the engine started first time. Injection is obviously a bit more involved, and I haven't made as much progress as I would have liked on this recently, but I will be hooking up the sensors one by one, when I have tested them all with megasquirt. I'm making a connector to go direct from megasquirt to the ecu plug on the cars loom, re-using the factory wiring. Means I can plug it in and out while testing sensors, and also retain the old ecu as a backup until I'm happy with it.

Kurbads: You won't get much gain from megasquirt fuelling on a standard car, the lucas system is pretty good. But having fully mapped ignition is a decent advantage. Throttle response and off boost driveability greatly improved, as well as power at lower boost levels.

Turbofrenzy
24th January 2008, 12:18 PM
Here are some pictures, they don't really show much, because here in France I don't want the authorities to see too much.
The car now has its original wheels on for the winter, plus it needs a new right hand front tyre, as this is almost completely worn out all the way across the tread, I can only assume its always this wheel that spins:nono;

Turbofrenzy
22nd February 2008, 07:16 AM
Hi all
Just a little update.
Yesterday the old girl passed her "Controlle Technique" MOT with flying colours :D , 2 minor notes "headlamps slightly low" which I set like that because I have a Zenon kit fitted and "Slight oil leak" which I also knew about, but haven't bothered to fix, I think its the gear selector oil seal.
The guy who did the test was quite interested and asked several questions about the headlights and performance mainly.
The Megasquirt kit is built, bench tested and works fine, some minor words of warning to anyone thinking of buying Megasquirt in kit form like I did:-
I thought I could solder well having fitted many alarms when I worked in the Saab garage, but this kit is very fiddly, the components are very small and its not for the faint hearted. You also need to read the instructions carefully, I made 1 mistake through not scrolling down the page far enough and it meant I had to change the smallest component which was a right pain.
Bearing in mind the import tax I had to pay because I bought from DIYautotune in the States, I think if I did it again I would buy a prebuilt unit from the UK.:confused:
As yet I have no Laptop, its on order from Dell, i'm getting my home phone line changed and ADSL fitted, I also have a set of RED 431 injectors on there way here and a short/quick shift, so when all this arrives i'll press on.
If anyone can help I still need a wiring diagram for the Lucas system, I have had a couple of replies (thanks lads) but they are not exactly what i'm looking for, what I really need is colour codes and pin references for the control unit, I can work it out for myself but it will take a lot longer and i'm getting lazy in my old age.
At the moment i've broken the bank/budget for this car but later this year I want to fit the 3inch exhaust, changing the battery position, fit a diff plate and change the cams, maybe fitting solid lifters, because i've decided I would like 300BHP
Photo's to follow
Maybe I have another car to look at today aswell another T16 but newer
Hop

TooMany2cvs
22nd February 2008, 08:21 AM
If anyone can help I still need a wiring diagram for the Lucas system, I have had a couple of replies (thanks lads) but they are not exactly what i'm looking for

Sorry, mate, missed the big doc out of the email I sent you! I've just forwarded it, but it's a bit big (8.5Mb), so may gum your inbox up.

IronJoe
22nd February 2008, 10:17 AM
The Megasquirt kit is built, bench tested and works fine, some minor words of warning to anyone thinking of buying Megasquirt in kit form like I did:-
I thought I could solder well having fitted many alarms when I worked in the Saab garage, but this kit is very fiddly, the components are very small and its not for the faint hearted. You also need to read the instructions carefully, I made 1 mistake through not scrolling down the page far enough and it meant I had to change the smallest component which was a right pain.

This is what I thought... I bought my unit pre-built for exactly this reason. It's not that much for $$ for a complete pre-built unit. Worth it IMO to lower your level of risk for damaging something!

Saab-Daniel
22nd February 2008, 12:06 PM
The best thing about the build kit, is that you don't get stranded... Otherwise, you really learn a lot by building it yourself, I did mine, it works great still, 2 years after... :)
Good luck!
Daniel.

Turbofrenzy
23rd February 2008, 03:58 AM
Yes you are completely correct saab-daniel, I meant to say this yesterday but had to go out in a hurry.
The BIG advantage of the self build kit is that you learn what each section of the kit does and what your options are, so if there is something not working or you want to upgrade etc you do have a better idea where to start.
I'm really looking forward to getting the Megasquirt on the car, that should really get my brain working.

Here's a little note on the car I looked at yesterday, words of warning to those who don't know the 900 T16.
I drove 1.5 hours each way to see the car 900T16s 1992, 3500 euro's, it looked good in the photo's and the guy told me it was in good condition, no engine /gearbox noise.:cry:
The Red was a bit faded, normal. Headlining replaced with dark grey, open bonnet M chassis 1991, motor and box older, long dipstick tube and block was greeny/grey colour and not red. 208000k but dash had been out because the rubber round the dials was hanging out. Went for a drive for a laugh, pinion bearing whining, clutch bearing noisey and the suspension was soft. Its at that moment you realise how good your own car is even when you know its faults. More importantly this other car did drive like a standard 16s it had normal boost pressure and brakes etc, but compared to my car it had the power of a 2.0 injection and didn't stop or handle.;)

Thanks to all those who helped with the wiring.
I'm off on holiday for a week, so will start fitting Megasquirt on my return.

Turbofrenzy
16th March 2008, 08:46 AM
Hi All
I have my new laptop, required software installed, but no serial port, so I am using an adapter usb-serial, which I tried on my home computer and all worked fine MS worked ok. The wiring and sensors are all in place on the car (1990 T16 Lucas non CAT) i've tried to do the conversion so that if need be I can change back to the Lucas control box, but this isn't as straight forward as I thought, I wired the MS fuel pump wire to the Lucas equivilent and thought I could wire the main Saab relay to the same wire-wrong for some reason that I couldn't work out the injectors and fuel pump were powered all the time, according to the wiring diagrams that's impossible, but hehho. I sorted it by using some spade terminals so I can quickly swap them over if I need to refit the Lucas box.
After that I thought, lets programme her up and get her started, but guess? my laptop wouldn't connect with MS through the adapter, I tried for ages, got fed up and came home, had a couple of beers, something to eat, connected MS-adapter-laptop and guess, after about 10 mins going through the serial port settings on Megatune it worked- typical.
So i'm off down to the car to try again this afternoon-the challenge is just to get her running today-the proper tuning can come latter.

Saab-Daniel
16th March 2008, 10:21 AM
Sounds great, remember to have fun. It's AWESOME when you fire it up the first time... :)
Daniel.

TooMany2cvs
16th March 2008, 10:42 AM
I have my new laptop, required software installed, but no serial port, so I am using an adapter usb-serial

but guess? my laptop wouldn't connect with MS through the adapter, I tried for ages, got fed up and came home, had a couple of beers, something to eat, connected MS-adapter-laptop and guess, after about 10 mins going through the serial port settings on Megatune it worked- typical.
So i'm off down to the car to try again this afternoon-the challenge is just to get her running today-the proper tuning can come latter.

Umm, this might sound a silly question, but why not just get an old laptop (with serial port) from fleaBay?

There's a shedload on there, less than 10 or so, which'd be perfect.

Turbofrenzy
16th March 2008, 02:51 PM
I had the same problem with the laptop, at home it was reading com 6, when with the car it wouldn't work, I had to use com 4.
Anyway, fired up Megatune, looked at dials hmmm, TPS signal Max, manifold temp -40. A bit of head scratching and looking at the wiring diagrams later and problem found, Saab/Lucas earth the sensors and MS feeds them. So a bit more rewiring later and bingo, well nearly:confused: she runs, but only with the fuel pump fuse removed, I think, but haven't checked that the injectors are open all the time (why I don't know, YET) whatever she's VERY rich.
Just to make sure I haven't really ****ed up, I reconnected the Lucas box and after a few coughs and splutters she revs cleanly;oops:
If I just ireversibly wired in MS it would be a lot simpler, but because I want the option to swap back it creates more head scratching.
Still it keeps me out of the bar, good job I don't need to drive her all the time.
Regarding the laptop, I wanted a new computer anyway, my old one is 8 or so years old. The stupid thing is when you need/want something to work it won't, when your not bothered/have more time you get it working straight away.
Still it gets my under used brain cells working, well maybe!
If it all worked straight away there would be nothing to write about.:)

Saab-Daniel
16th March 2008, 06:14 PM
Hmm, mr. Frenzy, you are sure you wired up the injectors right, right? Because MS pulses ground, Lucas pulses 12v... So you need to RE-WIRE that part aswell... TPS needs to be calibrated, and a sensor showing -40 is a faulty sensor, but you know that... now :D :cool:
Daniel.

Turbofrenzy
16th March 2008, 07:23 PM
Daniel,
Currently the injectors are fed live from the original main relay and triggered earth by MS, the same way Lucas worked.
However the main and pump relays are wired different to the MS wiring, but still work ok.
The sensor wasn't faulty, I wired it to the unused cold start wiring and assumed it was grounded, same with the TPS but heh what a mistake to make, assume nothing.
It really is the running with the pump fuse removed I need to look at.
I disagree Lucas earths the injectors at pin 13, pump relay at 16, main relay at 12.
I'll have a look in the week, if time and post what I find as soon as, even if it makes me eat my words, it maybe useful to other people.
APC is definitely self learning, no question.

Turbofrenzy
17th March 2008, 06:15 PM
Well, as I thought yesterday the injectors are held open, not a good combination when the fuel pump is triggered, bores full of fuel if your not careful :nono;

I checked the situation tonight with a multimeter, 6 volts at the injectors ignition on, cranking etc
Refitted Lucas unit 12 volts only when cranking or relays triggered.
Checked MS earths OK, removed wideband connections, retried injectors 6v, disconnect MS 0v, checked other injector trigger wire from MS and i've 9v at injectors, checked MS loom, no problems, so the problem is in the MS unit, either i've built something wrong or somethings gone POP, i've tried it on Megatune with Stim and it seems OK.
So now I guess I need to open the box and run through the assembly procedure.
Any idea's always welcome.http://www.saabcentral.com/forums/images/icons/icon14.gif

IronJoe
17th March 2008, 06:22 PM
Did you do the fuel pump circuit mod to account for the Saab fuel pump relay weirdness with MS?

Two issues that were a bit difficult to figure out. 1) the power relays. I wanted to use the existing harness and not cut it up. LH 2.4 has 2 relays both triggered from the LH ecu. MS requires that the main relay be controlled by the power switch. Every time I powered it up, and shut it down, the fuel pump continued to run. In diagnosing this problem, I ended up with a full #1 cyl (2X) and a full intake manifold. full of fuel. The mosfet driver (for the injectors) shorted causing the injectors to be on continuously. With this and the fuel pump running, I had a dangerous situation. Luckily nothing happened other than a lot of 93 octane on the floor.

Basically, the fuel pump relay allowed a sneak path to power up the MS power supply. About 7V appeared here with the path being through the main relay contacts and the FPR coil. On the MS board, D7 allowed this path to +12 and the power supply.My solution was to let the relays dump their spike into the trap for the injectors. I pulled D7 left leg and soldered it to the R32 lower leg.

EDIT: not sure if this applies to lucas cars? but it seems to be the same problem...

Turbofrenzy
17th March 2008, 06:44 PM
Ironjoe
That's very interesting, I didn't want to cut up my wiring loom, but i've had to change the earthing for the relays because at one point MS was holding one or both of them on. MS's wiring diagram wants the main relay earthed and MS triggering the pump relay, which then allows feed to the main relay, give or take Saab/Lucas do it the other way round.
I'm resonably sure its MS holding/earthing the injectors, but its strange, on the MS green injector wire I get 6v across the disconnected injector plug, but with the blue MS injector wire its 9v. The only other thing is maybe one of the other sensors connected is upsetting MS.

I may try again after work tomorrow, it maybe a case of removal and restarting a fresh, although i'm quite happy with my wiring at the moment.
It would be easier to forget the Lucas system, but if this is an ongoing problem or if I buy an new car and want to swap the system over and sell this one............ so, lets do it the hard way.

Has anyone out there done a Lucas 900 turbo?

Saab-Daniel
17th March 2008, 06:49 PM
I know Lars, known as Kaas have, I have helped him quite a bit, he made a cable to put in between lucas and MS, so a swap was easy...
MS DOES earth the injectors, I had to make everything myself, as mine is an 8v...
Daniel.

Turbofrenzy
22nd March 2008, 06:36 PM
Just a small update, i'm a cretin, too impatient I guess.
With the help of Matt at diyautotune by telephone we identified the problem, it's ME. Somehow I missed out a section and didn't solder all the parts to the board ;oops:
This has since been rectified, the car started easily and revs well when warmed up, she idles well at 900 rpm with a pair of grips restricting the IAC valve, the reason for this i'm confused as to whether I can use the Lucas 4 wire valve with my MS1 V3 or if I need to fit a Bosch 2-3 wire and hence haven't wired the IAC yet. It seems you CAN do it with MS2 V3, do I just jumper it the same?
Another interesting thing i've found is that with the MS Tach wire(pin 24) connected to Lucas pin 39 pulse from pin 7 ignition module, Megatune tacho works but the one on the car doesn't.:confused:
It's a big learning curve but very interesting;) ultimately I want to do ignition and maybe more, but want to get this right first.

To do/wish list
MS ongoing project of the moment
Change AC compressor-ready to fit
Fit bigger injectors and see what difference they make-ready to fit
De restrict intake system
Buy and fit steel gearbox plate
Change camshafts
Fit quickshift
Move battery and fit 3in exhaust system-when old one starts leaking
Change turbo-when this one burns oil/goes wrong
Nitrous???:evil:
Buy a 92/93 model, tres tres rare ici! comme tout les pieces en France

Turbofrenzy
24th March 2008, 07:23 PM
I changed the MS tacho wire from pin 39 on the Lucas ECU wiring to the centre brown wire on the distributor, thats cured the car tacho not working.
Reset sensor values, the warm up enrichement and fuel required, she now idles very well, when hot.
I've driven her up the road and have some flat spots to sort out. Should be ok when I get the hang of the Lambda control and Megatune.
But it feels good to drive again.

philb
25th March 2008, 10:11 AM
Well done - while I've been procrastinating over installing megasquirt, you've gone and done it.
So - given that you've fixed your MS unit, are any changes to the relay wiring still necessary?
I was planning on just hooking up the lucas loom to MS, via an adapter. I've already got power connected to MS, was going to just connect the fuel pump relay wire as well and hope it would all just work..

Turbofrenzy
25th March 2008, 07:01 PM
Hi philb
I've connected the wiring behind the Lucas 40 pin plug without removing it (soldering most wires). This way I can refit the Lucas box if necessary.
I have modified the relay wiring in 3 ways, but I can't remember how at the moment, the car and wiring diagrams are at work. It's not irreversible though.
I know if you just connect as is, you'd think it would work, but I had one of the relays staying on all the time.

Unless you have MS2 you CANNOT use the Lucas idle valve, I have a Bosch 3 wire from a 9000 I might fit or I may fit an MS2 daughter board.
Unfortionately its my busy time of year at work, Saturday I was invited to a "light lunch (French)" it started at 1.30 and finished at 4.45, too many late nights, visits to the bar, so conscentration is not at its best and progress is slow.
Hopefully i'll do some more later this week and i'll post the exact wiring connections/changes i've made ASAP

philb
25th March 2008, 08:42 PM
I currently have the megasquirt in place controlling ignition and boost. I just ran another wire from the main relay to power it. Pin 16 on lucas appears to earth fuel pump relay, I can't see why connecting this to pin 37 on megasquirt wouldn't just work.

Turbofrenzy
26th March 2008, 04:47 PM
Hi, that doesn't work, because you have to earth the main relay to power the injectors and the fuel pump relay. The first thing I did was to us MS to earth both relays at the same time (seemed logical to me) but this was when I had problems with one of the relays staying on, so what i've done is the opposite of what MS show on the wiring diagram, i've permanently earthed the pump relay and have MS grounding the main relay (Lucas pin 12 yellow/white wire) - this then feeds the over pressure switch, injectors and fuel pump relay.
The above is from memory but i'm sure its correct.
I might not even use and AIC valve, I had mine idling beautifully at 900rpm when hot tonight until I changed the VE table, now its 6-700 rpm and lumpy, I really need to sit and read all the info I have regarding tuning MS.
Getting an ouput from the LC-1 wideband seems to be a bit hit and miss?
What version of MS are you using?
How are you doing your ignition? Crank sensor or distributor, output to power stage or coil?
I'm planning to do mine once I get the injection sorted, so any help is welcome



I currently have the megasquirt in place controlling ignition and boost. I just ran another wire from the main relay to power it. Pin 16 on lucas appears to earth fuel pump relay, I can't see why connecting this to pin 37 on megasquirt wouldn't just work.

Saab-Daniel
26th March 2008, 05:43 PM
Never had problem with my lc-1 output to MS... Can't understand you have trouble with that?
What are your issues?
Daniel.

Turbofrenzy
26th March 2008, 06:25 PM
Never had problem with my lc-1 output to MS... Can't understand you have trouble with that?
What are your issues?
Daniel.

Hi Daniel
It's probably just lack of experience with MS and LC-1, that's all.
It flashes the red and green lights on Megatune, but i'm not sure if its accurate, because it was doing that the other night without the lambda sensor plugged in.
The main thing is it doesn't show any change of readings in the LM programmer.
But I haven't been through all the manual yet, i've done the cold calibration etc and the red LED shows things to be OK.
I'm not familiar with any of this, MS, LC-1, Megatune, LM programmer or even my new laptop, it all takes time.

philb
26th March 2008, 09:45 PM
I've gone back through my project thread, where myself and Kaas were discussing the wiring.

http://www.saabcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=84625&page=16

Some good stuff there. I hadn't paid it much attention till now, but kaas added an extra relay to ground the main relay when the ignition is switched on.

Your solution sounds even simpler, sounds like I'll go for that instead, cheers!

Regarding ignition -
I'm using MS1-Extra
Setup is the simplest possible - distributor hall sensor, and outputting to standard lucas ignition module. Works extremely well. There are two ways that the hall sensor circuitry can be wired in MS, see my project thread for the details.

Turbofrenzy
31st March 2008, 03:34 PM
My issue's turn out to be technology, my new laptop running Vista doesn't like some, which i'm not sure of, the software to tune MS!
Saabmatt did warn me about Vista issue's.
Phoned Dell France and explained problems and (elle me dit "je ne comprende pas, appellez cette numero **********) voila. So I called the number 3 times, nothing. So I thought hmmmm, i'd already asked if it was a French no, yes was the answer. So I added the UK code and presto it worked, I got through to the technical call centre in ? yep India. When I said my system was in French? You got it, anyway after half an hour the phone mysteriously cut off, so i've done a reinstallation and here we are working, butr with no MS software installed, so as instructed i'll install 1 thing at a time and see what causes the problem.
The problem is this may/will seriously hold up progress with MS, beware technology, it can save you time or also lose you time.

TooMany2cvs
31st March 2008, 05:19 PM
Saabmatt did warn me about Vista issue's.

You've got a superfluous word on the end of that... Avoid Vistula.

Turbofrenzy
2nd April 2008, 02:53 PM
The quickshift arrived today, which took me by surprise, being in France things usually arrive late.
It's fitted and goes easily into the five forward gears with the car just sitting not running, when I next go Megasquirting i'll try it.
Laptop has Megatune running under Vista and as yet no pc problems. So hopefully this weekend.

philb
5th April 2008, 06:17 PM
After about an hour with a multimeter in the engine bay today, I decided that still didn't know whether the lucas feeds or earths the injectors. I was leaning towards it earthing them, since there was no circuit from injectors to permanent ground with the main relay on, but lucas plugged out.
But after reading the manual again, its obvious that lucas earths them.
One point for you - you mention you used pin 13 to earth the injectors. This will give the injectors the full 12v . The lucas injectors are low impedence, and using 12v all the time will burn them out. Unless you are using the flyback circuit on megasquirt to limit the current, you need to use pin 11 instead, which goes through the ballast resistor,

Right, time to finally solder up this connector.

Turbofrenzy
6th April 2008, 04:57 AM
Hi
Lucas does earth the injectors via pin 11 resistor and pin 13, they are fed from the main relay. Thanks for the advice, I have both flyback circuits fitted.

I've written down all the pins/wiring i've used and will post it asap, but I don't have it here at the moment.

2 questions for you, are you using an LC-1? How far down the downpipe have you fitted it? I had a quick look at my car yesterday, but I get a big fluctuation in the A/F readings, also if I construct a VE table based on MAP, BHP etc..... she runs super rich, if I leave it on the default 350ci she runs better. Does anyone have a fuel table for a Lucas injection car?

Nothings easy with this car, I tried the shortshift with the engine running and can't get 1,2 or reverse, so i'll have to adjust the gearlinkage a bit.

Progress is slow due to being busy at work and I need to use the car this week, so I'll probably have to refit the Lucas box and maybe the gearlever.
I had a late night last night and the suns out, so its more relaxing to go fishing, but heho we'll see, the fishing gears in the car so I might have a change of mind.

After about an hour with a multimeter in the engine bay today, I decided that still didn't know whether the lucas feeds or earths the injectors. I was leaning towards it earthing them, since there was no circuit from injectors to permanent ground with the main relay on, but lucas plugged out.
But after reading the manual again, its obvious that lucas earths them.
One point for you - you mention you used pin 13 to earth the injectors. This will give the injectors the full 12v . The lucas injectors are low impedence, and using 12v all the time will burn them out. Unless you are using the flyback circuit on megasquirt to limit the current, you need to use pin 11 instead, which goes through the ballast resistor,

Right, time to finally solder up this connector.

philb
6th April 2008, 01:39 PM
wideband is about a foot away from the turbine exit:

http://philb.syndicate7.net/photos/saab/galleryData/medium-DSC00232.JPG

I've not hooked it to megasquirt yet. I've configured the narrowband output and have that hooked to lucas. It seems happy.
I recomend you do this if you are putting lucas back in - it will at least reassure you that the LC-1 setup is ok. In lm programmer the yellow wire is already setup as a narrowband output. You should check the box that says something like "high impedence during warmup", otherwise lucas will light up the CEL.
Then, start up, and look at the AFR's in the logworks software.
Has Daniel not sent you fuel maps already? I have some that he sent me, can pass them on.


In the logworks software, the AFR's look fine.

Turbofrenzy
6th April 2008, 05:11 PM
Starting at the beginning, I wish it hadn't rained and I went fishing instead.
I jacked the car up, 3rd gear with a pin in the diff plate, checked in the car put another pin in the inside hole, perfect alignment. Deja vu. After about 45 mins adjusting by eye, presto all gears working, adjust reverse pin, presto. Plug in Lucas box and go for a test, this is where the problem starts, 1km up the road the engine died, I looked in the mirror to see big puffs of grey smoke from the exhaust, oh yippie I thought. After a walk back to the base I collected the van and some rope, a quick call on a guy in the village, tow back to base, drop guy off, couple of beers. Right whats up, plugs wet, but sparking, hmm too much fuel, deja vu encore. Ce n'est possible. Pull injector rail, key on, injectors working all the time, unplug injectors, ok, hmm, Lucas box has gone wrong and is opening injectors all the time. As I had the injectors out i've fitted the red Bosch jobs. I really need to have the car driving by next weekend so pressures on.

So phil I cannot connect to Lucas now, I have nothing to fall back on at the moment.
My LC1 is mounted at the same distance as yours from the turbo and a bit higher up, like 12 oclock and i've made a shield from stainless, but sometimes I do get an 8 flash fault code, which is an overheated/damaged sensor.
I'll redo the earthing and reset the sensor.
Can you post or send the fuel maps please.
Its now a case of having to do it instead of when I get round to it, I might have to keep out of the bar this week.

philb
6th April 2008, 05:51 PM
Sorry to hear that. I've attached the files, they are full msq files so make sure to save yours first..
Probably best to just export the fuel maps from these, and then load your msq again, and import the fuel maps.
I can't find the emails Daniel sent me about them, I've not used the fuel portions of them yet, but I'd say they'll help to get you up and running.

I can't seem to attach them so I've put them on my site:

http://philb.syndicate7.net/megasquirt/

Regarding the lc-1, it threw the 8 flash code before I even had it installed, I reset it and all was well, best of luck.

Saab-Daniel
6th April 2008, 06:35 PM
Uhh, sounds like you have your work cut out for you, hopefully you get it working, otherwise you might have to walk over your wiring again, sounds like you might have a problem there...
Do you use MSN?
If yes, add my via danielfischer88 at hotmail.com if I can assist you in any way. Only online in the evening normally, work without access to messenger (damn siemens company rules) during the day ;)
Let me know if you want fuel-maps, I definetly have some you can start from.
Regards,
Daniel.

Turbofrenzy
6th April 2008, 07:10 PM
Much appreciated guys, be assured I will crack this.
My question mark is the LC1, i'm sure all the wirings fine. I've reset the LC1 2 or 3 times. I think the control box problem is pure coinsidence. I do have msn here on my old computer, but the cars at work, no msn or wifi. Maybe able to install msn though. I'll look tomorrow if I get time, but we are craning our boats back in the water. my mail is (c-h)at wanadoo.fr

Turbofrenzy
15th April 2008, 04:32 PM
Hi all
Thanks to philb for the maps which i've used to some extent.
Neither fitted the bill, but gave a starting point.
I've read and reread the instructions several times, but found nothing new.
However at last having some spare time, with my son here for a few days, we set about programming MS.

At last some real progress.
I'm as of today running, MS 1v3
Bosch red Trionic injectors
2.3 ported head
2.1 inlet
Modded APC 1.5bar boost
Forge bypass valve
FMIC
Cold air intake pipe

The car is just about driveable, will take full throttle, but has some flat spots.
It took all afternoon to get this far, because I don't believe my LC1 is working correctly, its all "seat of the pants dyno" with my son (14) on the laptop (telling me in which zone when I said "now")the flatspot occured.

We got to the nearest supermarket to get fuel and back, with no problems 36km), there are still flat spots, the first on really light throttle when accelerating, the second on WOT, accelerating through the midrange.
So i'm being cautious, I don't want to melt anything.
This is great news and i'm happy, prehaps more tomorrow, otherwise next week.

IronJoe
15th April 2008, 05:02 PM
Nice work, but definitely get that wideband working properly. Mine wasn't at first, as I had wired it up incorrectly.


Congrats!

Turbofrenzy
16th April 2008, 07:32 AM
Nice work, but definitely get that wideband working properly. Mine wasn't at first, as I had wired it up incorrectly.


Congrats!

Hi I've checked the wiring and its ok, Red-ignition, white/blue-earth, black-switch/LED, brown-MS pink, all seems to work ok, but it always reads very rich, off the gauge using logworks, if you rev the engine sometimes the reading changes, but so quickly you can't read it. The exhaust is black indicating rich also, but i've tried weakening in stages until the car misfires and the sensor reading is still the same/does the same thing.

I'm going to recalibrate again and contact diyautotune for advice.

Saab-Daniel
18th April 2008, 05:13 AM
Hi again Clive...
Did you get in touch with DIY autotune to get some assistance on the wideband-issue?
There's a lot of tuning-fun ahead of you :)
Daniel.

Turbofrenzy
20th April 2008, 05:27 PM
Hi again Clive...
Did you get in touch with DIY autotune to get some assistance on the wideband-issue?
There's a lot of tuning-fun ahead of you :)
Daniel.
Yep I emailed diyautotune (Matt) and as always got a quick reply, I recalibrated and all is fine now, why i'd don't know, the only thing different was cleaning the sensor.
I'm at 12ish idle (too rich), WOT is 9.8-11(a bit rich), but i've still mid range probs and just off idle probs, just off idle, light throttle i've 18 (too weak). I've been richening the settings but this has changed nothing, so i'm wondering if actually it's far too rich and fooling the sensor. That aside, it actually runs quite well, WOT acceleration is good and smooth, max boost is being achieved and in general terms, i'm getting there. It's difficult doing it on your own though. Here's some photo's

Saab-Daniel
21st April 2008, 04:02 AM
Clive, try fiddling with the accelleration-enrichments, this will probably give you what you need! This feature can provide you the throttle-respons you need, and get rid of the stumbling. Be aware though, that you need to tune the fuel-map to how you want it, before you activate the enrichments. Otherwise, the enrichments might cover for a bad fuel-map, which is not something you want... :lol:

Daniel.

Turbofrenzy
21st April 2008, 07:48 AM
Daniel
Thats very good advice because i've been adjusting the enrichments aswell as doing the fuel map, so one thing could be masking the other and as you say I need the fuel map first then everything else afterwards.:nono;

After I posted this morning I drove the car to work from cold and she drove well, which is a massive improvement, before I had to warm her up to running temperature and the drive off.

Now i'm getting somewhere the motivations back, but free time is the problem.
I think i'm about 25% short of a totally correct running motor.:)
I've asked someone I trust to give me a hand, when she's free :p :nono; ;) ;)

Turbofrenzy
30th April 2008, 06:55 AM
My car is now running pretty well, but it's really difficult mapping the fuel on your own, with the speed I don't know what'll happen first,
loose my licence
or write off the car.
I've been doing it by using the gauge in logworks, switching to Megatune, making changes and then going back to Logworks, all very long winded.

The reason being i'm not sure how the LED's work in Megatune, they're virtually always all lit up (all greens and all reds) the only time some of the reds go out is full throttle very high speed. Matt at Diyautotune told me you can change one of the gauges in Megatune to read A/F which i've done but I can make no sense of the readings. Any ideas?

Basically i've done everything "seat of the pants dyno"
Results at the moment:-
I'm on 8x8 table fuel only
The car starts easily hot/cold
Drives ok from cold but not perfect
All flatspots have gone, but top end is a bit wooly, i've been having some wastegate actuator issues aswell, intermittent over/under boost.
Drives well when hot, still not perfect (i want perfect)
3rd gear accelerates to 7000rpm/160kmh, but really nothing much to be gained above 6000rpm
4/5th mid range acceleration is excellent, really driveable
Idle is ok, but varies a lot (i've mole grips on the pipe) sometimes its 700 other times 1100, both when fully hot.

I've got a bosch 3 wire valve I can fit or a 2 wire air bypass valve from an XR3.
Fuel economy is non existant 300k 45 litres, 2 reasons, its always ran rich on MS and i've been thrashing the crap out of it doing the WOT stuff.

I've also now got a spare throttle housing to modify.
I think if I change the cams, exhaust, redo MS on the fuel and ignition I can get close to 300bhp.

I've been looking into steel diff plates but none are available at the moment, so I may try and get one made here, the machine shop who are doing the throttle body may be able to help.

dlb
30th April 2008, 10:56 AM
Just a guess, could it be possible that megatune is displaying the A/F ratios in lambda instead of the actual A/F ratio?

philb
30th April 2008, 11:01 AM
Tis unlikely.. More likely that the setup for the lc-1 doesn't match what megatune expects. I presume you've setup the megatune ini file ok.
Double check the outputs using lm programmer. I found that the setting for AFR changed by itself a few times. Also double check the analogue output for the wideband brown wire - remember that logworks doesn't use the analogue output, just reads from the lc-1 directly.

Turbofrenzy
30th April 2008, 11:18 AM
Just a guess, could it be possible that megatune is displaying the A/F ratios in lambda instead of the actual A/F ratio?

No it's not as simple as that unfortionately, it reads so rich that the car wouldn't run when hot if the readings were true.

Turbofrenzy
30th April 2008, 11:24 AM
Tis unlikely.. More likely that the setup for the lc-1 doesn't match what megatune expects. I presume you've setup the megatune ini file ok.
Double check the outputs using lm programmer. I found that the setting for AFR changed by itself a few times. Also double check the analogue output for the wideband brown wire - remember that logworks doesn't use the analogue output, just reads from the lc-1 directly.

Thats a good point, I know the brown wire is connected, but maybe i've missed something in the .ini, or something has changed like you said.
I'll do that now, I have to go out later, i've found 4 X 900's for sale on ebayfrance, 3 are turbo's, it might be worth breaking them or make 1 good and break the rest.

Turbofrenzy
30th April 2008, 11:50 AM
Thats a good point, I know the brown wire is connected, but maybe i've missed something in the .ini, or something has changed like you said.
I'll do that now, I have to go out later, i've found 4 X 900's for sale on ebayfrance, 3 are turbo's, it might be worth breaking them or make 1 good and break the rest.


Go to the top of the class philb, either I didn't set the lambda or it reset back to narrowband because i'm sitting in the car typing this and its working fine.
It's showing i'm weak on warm up, so I need to change that.

Saab-Daniel
30th April 2008, 06:10 PM
Very nice, good work.

Looking forward to the results...!
Daniel.

Turbofrenzy
1st May 2008, 03:52 AM
I'm having the frenzy without much turbo at the moment, I did the 90k trip to look at the 4 cars for sale and the max boost I saw was 1 bar once.
Most of the time it was 0-0.5 bar and slow building up, I think the wastegate is open, if you take the pipe off of the actuator it makes no difference, if you adjust the rod, sometimes it over boosts the settles down.
I seem to remember from my garage days a bush on the wastegate shaft that drops out, i'll have to investigate.
No Turbofrenzy for me at the moment:cry:

ejenner
1st May 2008, 05:31 AM
If you take the hose off the wastegate and the boost isn't furious and mad then you know there's something wrong with the wastegate... or the turbo.

Sometimes, if the turbo itself is broken, dodgy turbine wheel, etc, then it won't make boost properly, even if the wastegate is shut!

The wastegate actuator has a spring and a rubber diaphram inside. If the rubber is broken then the actuator won't respond to input from the boost control system. If this was causing the problem then removing the wastegate hose would show you lots of boost. So more likely, the wastegate spring is not working... if it is a wastegate issue and not a problem with the turbo.

Turbofrenzy
1st May 2008, 05:37 PM
I think i've found the turbo problem, but haven't tried it on the road because of a more pressing problem (MS not working, motor no go), the wategate arm where the actuator sits/actuates is badly worn, so if sitting in the ridge there is no pressure holding the wastegate valve shut, if outside the grove there is preload, so for the moment i've shortened the actuator rod to take up the slack, this will probably give too much boost so i'll either adjust the overpressure switch or the pot in the APC box. Removing the wastegate pipe made no difference, as ejenner said, wastegate or turbo. But first I have to get her running again, basically I thought hmmm, "sorted the turbo, lets upgrade the firmware in MS ready for spark 12x12 tables etc" mistake, I started the update, it found something it didn't like, aborted and now i'm trying to work out what went wrong/more likely what i've done wrong.;oops:

Turbofrenzy
1st May 2008, 06:51 PM
I think i've found the turbo problem, but haven't tried it on the road because of a more pressing problem (MS not working, motor no go), the wategate arm where the actuator sits/actuates is badly worn, so if sitting in the ridge there is no pressure holding the wastegate valve shut, if outside the grove there is preload, so for the moment i've shortened the actuator rod to take up the slack, this will probably give too much boost so i'll either adjust the overpressure switch or the pot in the APC box. Removing the wastegate pipe made no difference, as ejenner said, wastegate or turbo. But first I have to get her running again, basically I thought hmmm, "sorted the turbo, lets upgrade the firmware in MS ready for spark 12x12 tables etc" mistake, I started the update, it found something it didn't like, aborted and now i'm trying to work out what went wrong/more likely what i've done wrong.;oops:

Most strange, i've just come down from reprogramming MS on my old pc no problem, but on this new laptop it just wouldn't do it, so tomorrow evening we'll see what happens!

mumsaab
5th May 2008, 11:10 PM
Are you running Vista I have had a ot of problems with other programmes including MS they simply will not run. On Windows XP no problems. I too have just bought a new laptop but am seriously considering going back to XP.

Turbofrenzy
6th May 2008, 07:52 AM
Are you running Vista I have had a ot of problems with other programmes including MS they simply will not run. On Windows XP no problems. I too have just bought a new laptop but am seriously considering going back to XP.


Yes I am running Vista and I think that its the problem too.
I've reprogrammed MS to MSextra and redone the temp sensor files on my old home pc using windows 2000, the car is now running again, but since changing to 12x12 tables the flatspots are back and proving very hard to get rid of.
I'm currently writing a fuel table 12x12 manually using the best 8x8 table, out of interest for a comparison.
I've had to set my new laptop back to a fresh install twice because it started freezing up.

philb
6th May 2008, 09:06 AM
Glad to hear you got the firmware updated ok in the end. Could you post up a picture of your ve table(s)?

Turbofrenzy
7th May 2008, 03:26 AM
Here are the VE tables,

The first 8x8 is the last before the firmware upgrade, the car started, warmed up and drove pretty well, but a bit rich.

The second table is after the firmware upgrade and is a Megatune conversion from the 8x8, with some testing and changes, but has 2 flatspots, a bad one on light throttle aroung 1500rpm, the second on WOT at about 4000rpm. That I cannot eliminate.

The third is an experiment as yet untested (maybe tonight, if not tomorrow), its my manual conversion from my best 8x8 table.

I resolved my turbo/boost problem, it was the wear on the pivot where the actuator rod goes on the waste gate arm (about 2/3mm), so I adjusted the rod to take out the slack and keep the waste gate shut. Ofcourse this then gave an overboost situation, so what did I do? Yep, you got it, i've REMOVED the overpressure switch, so my standard turbo now peaks at 1.8 bar!

Turbofrenzy
18th May 2008, 04:31 PM
I've finally got some time to program the fuel tables.

I am using the homemade table and have got rid of the flatspots, the main problem was some of the enrichments were still on and there was just too much fuel. So I turned them all off.
I did some runs last Thursday and made some progress, the car pulled very well from idle to 7000rpm and I think was shooting flames out the exhaust on high rpm gearchanges(there was certainly some pops and bangs from the exhaust)
Today I spent about an hour weaken off the table, i'm still pulling through o 7000 rpm but on acceleration there are now some slight hesitations, so obviously i'm close to needing acceleration enrichment at certain points.
I still have a slight woolyness going from light throttle low rpm on to turbo, but nothing too serious. I'm still a bit rich on cruise/light throttle 14 to 1, WOT through low and mid range is 12.5, but high rpm/throttle is 10 to 1 which is still too rich.
I need to think about what type of idle control valve to use so I can do away with the molegrips on the pipe.
Probably this week i'll get my throttle housing back that's being bored out to take a bigger butterfly.
I've fitted my replacement air con compressor and went to the garage for a regas, the last 2 times it cost 90euro's, but now it needs converting to R134 gas, so 2 valves, different oil and regas 300euro's, I don't think so.

Turbofrenzy
6th June 2008, 06:10 PM
Very little news on the MS front the car drives so well I haven't changed the programming much, WOT is now 12 to 1, light/med throttle 14-16 to 1, I still have the transitional flat spot at 1500-2000 light throttle acceleration, but its minor in the scheme of things. In the wet which we're having a lot of, wow, ****!
The air cons been sorted, 2 valves to convert to r134 12 euro's with delivery from the UK, 80 euro's for a regas. But it still doesn't work, why because of MS, with Lucas its wired through the injection box, so I have to do a little rewiring to ground the compressor relay.
I've built up the bored out throttle housing, blended all the steps and restrictions out, fitted to the car, drove up the road and she had better throttle response and seemed smoother accelerating, BUT I can't get the idle below 1300 when hot, so I can only assume the housing is too big for the butterfly, the funny thing is the gaps around the butterfly look no different to the original.
I'll have to investigate further, maybe get another butterfly.
I want to fit a steel diff plate before the visit to the dragstrip in July, then i'll go to MS ignition.

saabmatt
7th June 2008, 05:44 AM
Good lad, sounds like its getting there, you must sort out your exhaust next!

I have been sorting my 900 this week MOT due, fitted new front and rear AVO shocks (at last), new screen, that was a bit nervy but it went in and I keep my 100% record of never breaking a screen!
I also found a hole in the box, I had a new one in the shed just a pain to fit.

MOT then the new engine will get fitted July.

philb
10th June 2008, 02:09 PM
I changed the MS tacho wire from pin 39 on the Lucas ECU wiring to the centre brown wire on the distributor, thats cured the car tacho not working.
.

I just switched to directly driving the coil ( was going through bosch module on inner wing ). And now the tacho has gone from partially working to not working at all. So you ran a wire from the brown wire on the hallsensor plug to MS pin 24? The brown wire on the hall sensor plug feeds the tacho?? I will try this, but it sounds confusing.

Turbofrenzy
10th June 2008, 03:46 PM
I just switched to directly driving the coil ( was going through bosch module on inner wing ). And now the tacho has gone from partially working to not working at all. So you ran a wire from the brown wire on the hallsensor plug to MS pin 24? The brown wire on the hall sensor plug feeds the tacho?? I will try this, but it sounds confusing.

Yes i've run the white MS pin 24 wire to pin 2 on the distributor.
I did connect at the Lucas plug pin 39, but that did stop the dash tacho working, although the engine ran and the tacho in Megatune did work.
In July i'll be looking at firing the coil direct from MS, but at the moment the cars going well enough, i'm going to do an RWYB at the dragstrip on July 6th.

Turbofrenzy
10th June 2008, 04:56 PM
Today's update
I changed the gearbox selector oil seal and rubber gaiter, what a job lying on your back on the floor without the correct tools, it took about 2 hours, I think it took about 0.5 in the garage with the correct tools.
I've check out the air con and it is due to fitting MS, the A/C sends 12volts to the Lucas box, which then earths the A/C relay to trigger the compressor.
Obviously MS doesn't do this, so i've connected the 12v trigger to a relay which switches the earth on for the compressor relay, it works a treat.
I've done a bit of panel beating, sanding and filing on the larger throttle butterfly, this is now installed in the bored out housing and is fitted on the car, idling with no load when hot is about 1000/1050, with any loads or not quite fully hot its 800/900, so that can stay aswell, no idle valve, no mole grips, although she needs some help when cold 500ish and tries to stall, but not too bad, probably worse in the winter.

Hopefully I have a driver on Sunday so can sort the transitional hesitation, light acceleration going on to turbo.
I've also done the taper boost mod on top of the other 900aero mods, I had to fit the additional 10ohm resistor to get the .365v reading and i'm sorry to say it DOESN'T make any difference on MY car. She can peak boost to 1.7/8 bar, she boosts to 1.5 bar reliably in 3rd, 4th and 5th, but with revs the boost tapers back to 1/1.1 bar. Prehaps no ones tried it with this level of boost!
Also even with this level of boost i've no misfires, the plugs were set at 0.8, when fitted 1.5 years ago and i've not touched them since, even when I flooded the engine.
I've got the exhaust down pipe and manifold so hot its changed colour and the manifold now has a crack on top of it between cylinders 2 and 3
This car is now restricted at the top end, so the next real stage will cost, turbo, exhaust and cams.
I've done a couple of practice 0-1/4 mile starts, the other night on a dry road I thought the clutch had started slipping, BUT the 25/30 metre line of thick black rubber on the road is the give away!:nono;
Anyone who says "the gearbox can't take it" i'm not listening, i'm a big boy now if it goes bang, it goes bang, i'll have to fix it, OK!
I actually noticed just over 1 bar boost in first gear!!!!
If you nail her in 5th at 2000 rpm, you've full boost 1.5 bar plus at 2500rpm, not bad with 342500km on the clock.

Turbofrenzy
17th June 2008, 03:29 PM
Many thanks to Sophie for cooking lunch, driving my car in the manner required and when not driving reading the megatune gauges.
After about 1-1.5 hours driving and tuning I think we're 95% there, the flatspot is gone when hot, the car drives very well, idle is a bit high with no load, I can't get it below 1000rpm, I need to get a bigger butterfly at some point, WOT is a bit rich at certain points, but no great problem. The worst problem is since getting the hot running right and adding back in the acceleration enrichments, she drives badly on low speed light throttle warm up, but that should be fairly easy to cure.
The drive back at 10pm was interesting, windy country roads through the forest, "like a bat out of hell", when I got back the whole exhaust manifold and turbo was glowing a lovely shade of orange.

Turbofrenzy
19th June 2008, 09:53 AM
Thanks to saabmatt for the web space
Here are some pictures of the throttle bodies, the modded one is about 1.5mm larger, the butterfly is knife edged, pipes cut back flush and the spindle is about half the normal size.

http://www.terrimoore.co.uk/clive/turbofrenzy/bod1.jpg

http://www.terrimoore.co.uk/clive/turbofrenzy/bod3.jpg

Turbofrenzy
28th August 2008, 08:59 AM
Time for an update, the drag strip was rained off in June, but I'll get another chance on 14th September.
The cars been going we but there are slight hesitations going on and off of throttle at very light throttle around 1500/2000rpm, this more apparent sometimes than others. The cars been running so well otherwise I haven't done anything about it.
The only minor problem was the old girl had a ride on a breakdown lorry, I was in town shopping, went to get some petrol and the motor cut on the forecourt, I had the A/C on and the idle was low, so I thought it was because of that, so I turned everything off and the engine restarted ok, got fuel and went for a cruise round town, right in the middle of town, coming up to the trafic lights the motor cut, I managed to roll into a parking space, tried to restart and nothing.
I had nothing with me to check the problem, the only thing I knew was the fuel pump wasn't running. My first thought was MS had gone down, I checked fuses etc, but no go, so I called assistance, they recovered the car but wanted it to go to the nearest garage, **** I thought they won't know what to do, so many mods. Anyway I managed to talk them into delivering the car to my workplace.
That night I had a look, when I tried to start the motor I had smoke coming from behind the dash, ****!!!!, but not from MS. Disconnect battery, remove console and lower dash et voila, the edge of an electric terminal i'd crimped on to bridge the over pressure switch was touching the brake light bracket and shorted, hence the insulation started melting. So I made good this problem and all was well again. Whilst there I reset the pedal switches and got the cruise control working again.
The turbo boost has increased on its own again, its peaking at almost 2bar.
The overal driveability is excellent, she's still a bit rich and thirsty, when work slows down i'll investigate more, reprogram a bit.
I changed the oil and filter and gearbox oil, slight filings in the gearbox oil, engine oil was brown but no problems. I'm using Mobil1 and changing every 5/6000 km, prevention is better than cure!

Turbofrenzy
29th September 2008, 12:24 PM
Time for another minor update.
I went to the dragstrip a Vichy on September 14th with no major problems.
But things didn't really go according to plan, I only got 2 runs because it rained on the Saturday, so they ran the pros ahead of the run what you brung.
The second thing was that my car wasn't as quick as I hoped, however both runs were quicker than last year and it was into a strong headwind, on a positive note top speed was up 3-4 kmh even into a strong wind, proving the car is making more power.
These results spurred me on to do some more work, firstly I modified the retard capsule, so i've 22 at idle pulling back to 10 on full boost, this makes the car more responsive at low revs.
So then I thought "lets go one further and get MS on ignition", so I remove the box, opened and soldered in the 330 ohm resistor and 2 jumper wires, connected the brown MS wire to the coil - first disconnecting the original blue wire, I then followed the set up/calibration to get the car running, which after 2 or 3 attempts it did, however it was difficult to start, always sounding over advanced. Distributor vacuum hose removed and blocked off.
I fitted a knock LED to the dash via an ignition feed and a connection to pin 19 on the APC box.
I then constructed an ignition table of 22 off turbo and 10 on boost.
OK roadtest, car went like a bullet on anything below 0.8 bar boost, but knocked like hell above 0.8 bar and had only 1.5 bar boost. Not just lighting the LED but audible aswell.:nono; , so I changed the advance on turbo to 5 then 0, but this didn't stop the knock. I reconnected the retard capsule with MS to see what would happen and wow backfires, smoke from the exhaust, it didn't like it at all.
So as I needed to use the car for a couple of journey's I reconnected the standard ignition system. 2 bar boost and the knock LED never lights:D
So obviously there's a base line setup/calibration fault as the car starts a lot easier aswell. When calibrating MS the distributor is advanced about 30 over standard. Which would follow with the problems i'm having.
So the question is what method of calibration are you guys using?
I would of thought that just swapping the wires and calibrating at TDC/ entering 0 into MS a good starting point?
I can see the benefits of getting MS ignition working, if I can get the bottom end pull with 1.8 bar boost (i'm going to deadjust it a bit 2 bar is too much, it causes hickups) and no knock it'll be a very quick car.
Saabmatt's coming over the end of next week, so hopefully we'll get some programming done if we stay out of the bar long enough;)

philb
29th September 2008, 12:43 PM
Theres 2 different circuits possible for the hall sensor wiring within MS.
As for calibrating, I had to turn the distributor a little bit, but I don't think it was 30 degrees. I used keithg's instructions from his webpage:

Twist the distributor a bit more clockwise and set the trigger to 40 degrees and a static advance of 20 and verify that it reads 20 deg advance with a timing light. Twist the dizzy until it reads 20 deg. Then type in -10 to make it run off the map.

That worked for me.
Can you record your settings in the ignition setup screens ( trigger angle etc ) and post up, maybe screenshots is the easiest thing to do. If the trigger angle is too large then that could give problems. I'll dig out my trigger angle settings this evening.

Hmm, on rereading your post, it sounds like you are using direct drive to the coil? Not a great idea, it never worked great for me at least. If memory serves your car was lucas. You need to use the ignition module.
Pin 6 on the ignition module is connected to the hall sensor ( I'm presuming you've already spliced into this to feed ms trigger input ). You need to unhook the wire going TO the ignition module, and connect the megasquirt spark output to that. So that megasquirt is in between the hall sensor output and the ignition module, if that makes sense.

You will probably need to change whether the spark is inverted or not (be careful, read up on this setting beforehand as I can't remember which way it should be offhand ), and you'll need to set dwell to fixed duty of 75%.

Turbofrenzy
29th September 2008, 12:53 PM
Yep i'm on Lucas injection and using direct coil, this is what the megasquirt site recommends now.
I've always picked up my trigger from the centre wire on the distributor, it's worked fine for injection, I tried using the wire at the lucas injection box but my dash tacho never worked like that.
I'll have to find my settings, i'm at work and my laptops at home. Needless to say I can't remember!
Whats the problem with going direct coil?



Theres 2 different circuits possible for the hall sensor wiring within MS.
As for calibrating, I had to turn the distributor a little bit, but I don't think it was 30 degrees. I used keithg's instructions from his webpage:



That worked for me.
Can you record your settings in the ignition setup screens ( trigger angle etc ) and post up, maybe screenshots is the easiest thing to do. If the trigger angle is too large then that could give problems. I'll dig out my trigger angle settings this evening.

Hmm, on rereading your post, it sounds like you are using direct drive to the coil? Not a great idea, it never worked great for me at least. If memory serves your car was lucas. You need to use the ignition module.
Pin 6 on the ignition module is connected to the hall sensor ( I'm presuming you've already spliced into this to feed ms trigger input ). You need to unhook the wire going TO the ignition module, and connect the megasquirt spark output to that. So that megasquirt is in between the hall sensor output and the ignition module, if that makes sense.

You will probably need to change whether the spark is inverted or not (be careful, read up on this setting beforehand as I can't remember which way it should be offhand ), and you'll need to set dwell to fixed duty of 75%.

philb
29th September 2008, 12:58 PM
I could never get the car to drive quite properly with it.. I think theres less to go wrong if you leave the high current between the ignition module and coil, just get megasquirt to trigger it.

Turbofrenzy
29th September 2008, 01:13 PM
I'd like to continue with direct coil if possible, like the injection I think it'll take time to sort, but hopefully with some help here and 2 of us progress will be made. If i'm seriously stuck i'll use the power stage.



I could never get the car to drive quite properly with it.. I think theres less to go wrong if you leave the high current between the ignition module and coil, just get megasquirt to trigger it.

philb
29th September 2008, 08:04 PM
So I've just checked the settings.
40 degree trigger angle, 0 trigger angle addition.
time based cranking. cranking advance 10.
Hold ignition 1.
spark output inverted NO for ignition module, YES for direct driving coil.
Fixed angle -10 ( to use map ) and trim of 0.

On the dwell screen, when direct driving coil, I had 6ms for cranking, 3.9 for running, 0.5ms discharge time. I think 6 is the upper limit for cranking or running.
Hope this helps..

Turbofrenzy
2nd October 2008, 08:29 AM
That's interesting
When running direct coil I was running next cylinder mode
60 degree trigger angle, 0 trigger angle addition.
time based cranking. cranking advance 10.
Hold ignition 1. Spark Output inverted
Fixed angle -10 ( to use map ) and trim of 0
On the dwell screen, when direct driving coil, I had 6ms for cranking, 3.5 for running, 0.1ms discharge time.

These settings were used for a very short time as the car had less boost and knocked, so it's back to the drawing board. The strange thing is as per the instructions I checked the base timing at idle and set it to 10, but i'm sure the timing was always very advanced because the position of the distributor was a lot different to standard.
I've got to drop my boost pressure to get rid of the hickups aswell, I think 2 bar's a bit high.



So I've just checked the settings.
40 degree trigger angle, 0 trigger angle addition.
time based cranking. cranking advance 10.
Hold ignition 1.
spark output inverted NO for ignition module, YES for direct driving coil.
Fixed angle -10 ( to use map ) and trim of 0.

On the dwell screen, when direct driving coil, I had 6ms for cranking, 3.9 for running, 0.5ms discharge time. I think 6 is the upper limit for cranking or running.
Hope this helps..

philb
2nd October 2008, 06:12 PM
I think that the trigger angle is the problem.
Have a good read of this
http://ys3al35l.googlepages.com/
Skip to July 4 2005, and also Nov 11 2005. With the standard distributor and no mods to it, keith found a trigger angle of 40 degrees to work well once started, but harder to start. To get an angle of 60 degrees, he moved the hall sensor on the distributor, but left the distributor where it was.
I think your distributor is twisted too far, and the rotor is not close enough to the tower when the plug fires, giving a weak spark.
Set your trigger angle to 40, and turn the distributor until you get your timing locked on. Looking at the distributor from the front of the car, you'll find the vac capsule slopes down towards the right, slightly ( this is a rough estimate from my car ). Its not too far from where it would be with the standard ignition setup.
On my car I found no problems with starting, it was quicker than stock.

Turbofrenzy
13th November 2008, 08:13 AM
Wow how time fly's when you've had your base shut down and have to move.Hence not as much progress as hoped, due to visiting my prospective new place of work and looking for somewhere to live, the really bad thing is it'll be in the sunny South West of France.

Anyway saabmatt came over, numerous beers drunk, even a visit to the best nightclub in europe HOHO, even some tuning work was done.

Basically we had a twiddle around with the ignition timing, but it was already about right, anymore advance and the knock light lit. Running 22 at idle and 10 on full boost gives AT LEAST 100km extra on a tank of fuel aswell as better low down pull!

So we set about getting MS on ignition, all we did was strobe MS to 10 btdc, set the trigger angle to 10, bingo she started, so off we went starting with a basic table of 16 off boost and 10 on boost.

We then modified it as follows with good results, but its still dificult to start and has a hesitation on full throttle acceleration, going on to full boost at 3000+ rpm.
http://www.terrimoore.co.uk/clive/TurboFrenzy/sparktable.jpg

I've emailed diyautotune and been told to up the dwell times for starting and running and to measure the existing dwell time and prehaps use these figures. Unfortionately I have a dwell meter but this reads degrees, does anyone know if it's possible to convert dwell degrees to milliseconds and if so how?

Or does anyone have the information on what exactly the dwell timing is normally coming from the power stage/amplifier?

TooMany2cvs
13th November 2008, 08:25 AM
Unfortionately I have a dwell meter but this reads degrees, does anyone know if it's possible to convert dwell degrees to milliseconds and if so how?

If you know what revs the engine's turning at, it should be fairly straightforward. Dwell is normally the angle through which the distributor is rotated whilst the spark is firing (points are closed, back in the good ol' days!), so the same as cam revs, so you're looking at half crank revs.

At 800rpm, one cam revolution takes 1/400th of a minute, so 150 milliseconds. Each degree of cam revolution - and therefore dwell - would be 0.4ms.
At 1600rpm, 0.2ms.
At 3200rpm, 0.1ms.
At 6400rpm, 0.05ms.

<scratches head>
Wouldn't it?

philb
13th November 2008, 08:28 AM
Need to know where you are running the spark output from MS. Are you running it direct to the coil, or to pin 6 of the the amplifier on the inner wing?

I never had good results running direct to the coil.
I think the dwell was round 5ms starting, 3.6 running. You can't go too high or you blow the coil driver in the MS. I really recommend that you use the ignition module thats on the car instead.


If you are running to the ignition amplifier, then you need to let it control the dwell, NOT MS. Set MS dwell to a fixed duty cycle of 75%.

Turbofrenzy
14th November 2008, 03:46 AM
If you know what revs the engine's turning at, it should be fairly straightforward. Dwell is normally the angle through which the distributor is rotated whilst the spark is firing (points are closed, back in the good ol' days!), so the same as cam revs, so you're looking at half crank revs.

At 800rpm, one cam revolution takes 1/400th of a minute, so 150 milliseconds. Each degree of cam revolution - and therefore dwell - would be 0.4ms.
At 1600rpm, 0.2ms.
At 3200rpm, 0.1ms.
At 6400rpm, 0.05ms.

<scratches head>
Wouldn't it?

Hmmm Bit early in the morning, dunno! The theory's good, but the figures MS gives as a starting point are 6.0ms cranking and 3.5ms running.
Actually your figures are for 1 cam rotation so if I multiply that by the degrees the shutter wheel is triggering it should be about right, maybe!

TooMany2cvs
14th November 2008, 03:49 AM
Hmmm Bit early in the morning, dunno! The theory's good, but the figures MS gives as a starting point are 6.0ms cranking and 3.5ms running.
Actually your figures are for 1 cam rotation so if I multiply that by the degrees the shutter wheel is triggering it should be about right, maybe!

Don't forget that cranking revs will be lower than 800rpm, too. Half that, mebbe?

Turbofrenzy
14th November 2008, 08:00 AM
Need to know where you are running the spark output from MS. Are you running it direct to the coil, or to pin 6 of the the amplifier on the inner wing?

I never had good results running direct to the coil.
I think the dwell was round 5ms starting, 3.6 running. You can't go too high or you blow the coil driver in the MS. I really recommend that you use the ignition module thats on the car instead.


If you are running to the ignition amplifier, then you need to let it control the dwell, NOT MS. Set MS dwell to a fixed duty cycle of 75%.

I have bben trying to run the direct coil set up because I made the MS to run that way, i'll have to modify it to run from the power amp, I think?
I've started at 6 starting and 3.5 running.
Diyautotune told me to keep upping the settings until the problem went away or something got hot, eg coil. They wouldn't give me a maximum I could go to though.

philb
15th November 2008, 09:02 AM
no mods needed. Reconnect the coil to the module, and connect ms spark output to pin 6 on the module. (brown wire I think )

Turbofrenzy
15th November 2008, 01:42 PM
no mods needed. Reconnect the coil to the module, and connect ms spark output to pin 6 on the module. (brown wire I think )

I'm sure when I built the MS there were different resistors in different places, depending if you used direct coil or power stage, it is the brown wire.
I might just give it a go when I get back, but time's short I have to move house ASAP.

Turbofrenzy
27th November 2008, 05:23 PM
Nothing much to report, no work done.
But the 500 km journey south to our new home was no problem, up over le puy de dome, climbing to 1100 metres easy, 1 stop for a pee and fuel, usually the journey takes about 4h 45min, but this time even with the stop 4h 26min at the cost of a bit of economy. 525k to 55/60 litres, but at 140kmh even on the big climbs. I didn't see any flashes!!!
I hope the a/c keeps working in the summer here its very hot.
With the 3 day weekends once settled in and hopefully with a bit of money saved living free on a boat, I can do some more work.

Turbofrenzy
3rd February 2009, 08:40 AM
Well its that time of year again, a bit of money put by, just ready to be spent.

Christmas and New year passed and the continuing search for more power starts again.
The first minor investment was an innovate A/F gauge for the dash, worth its weight in gold for 2 reasons, the first on a motorway run set the cruise control when the mixture was slightly lean and I got 657km from a tank of unleaded 95, the second reason for reprogramming the MS, its still not ideal doing it on your own but its easier with the gauge. I've managed to lean out the mixture quite alot and get rid of the light throttle stutter.
The next expense is some tyres for some reason all 4 are shot after less than 20000km and I haven't even changed them front to rear.
As usual its a balance between grip and cost, so i've gone for the cheapest tyre that has some sort of heard of name as opposed to something i've never heard of.
I'm not sure of this years plans, it depends how long things last on the car, i'll probably put the battery in the boot, ready to change the exhaust, in 3 years the only bit thats been changed is the rear silencer. Maybe change the turbo.
Certainly try and get the fueling spot on and then the MS running ignition properly.

Turbofrenzy
5th March 2009, 02:40 PM
Firstly has anyone got any ideas, my famous flatspot/hesitation deaccelerating on light throttle then reacccelerating gently has returned, I can only assume its because the ambiant temperature is rising , its now about 15/17c in the afternoon.
Secondly there has been alot of discussion about turbo's, I want to get over 300bhp obviously with driveability etc, some people prefer the T3/T4 or modded mitsu T05 and others the more modern ball bearing GT route, any advise welcome!
I'm looking at exhausts and was going to get the full 3" and move the battery downpipe, but will probably buy the system and make the turbo output to downpipe section (cos I dunno which turbo to fit), why is it over 100 euro's cheaper to get the same thing (spee*parts) from the UK than here in France

ejenner
6th March 2009, 06:29 AM
The reason I still have a T3 based turbo on my 99 is down to cost. The basic core was sourced from eBay for around 100 and then I spent around 100 getting it professionally refurbished. So for 200 I had a 'good as new' and very large turbo. I like the challange it has given me... it is just begging for some clever mods to bring down the spool-up time. At the moment all the fun really starts at around 4.5k and I am aiming to bring this down to 3.5k - we'll have to see if I manage that or not.

For my other Saab I spent 1000 on a new and very high tech 'VNT' turbo. This turbo should generate boost at idle rpm's. It's the same kind of turbo Porsche use on their latest cars. VNT has been around for ages on diesel engines but they are still quite new on petrol cars.

So different cars, different turbos. Both cars will be quick but they will have different uses.

If you build the downpipe yourself you won't need to move the battery. You can build the downpipe so the battery is avoided. But on the other hand. Moving the battery to the boot is a good way to redistribute weight. If it doesn't have to be right in the front of the car in front of the front wheels then it would be silly to keep it there.

Turbofrenzy
8th March 2009, 06:50 AM
The reason I still have a T3 based turbo on my 99 is down to cost. The basic core was sourced from eBay for around 100 and then I spent around 100 getting it professionally refurbished. So for 200 I had a 'good as new' and very large turbo. I like the challange it has given me... it is just begging for some clever mods to bring down the spool-up time. At the moment all the fun really starts at around 4.5k and I am aiming to bring this down to 3.5k - we'll have to see if I manage that or not.

For my other Saab I spent 1000 on a new and very high tech 'VNT' turbo. This turbo should generate boost at idle rpm's. It's the same kind of turbo Porsche use on their latest cars. VNT has been around for ages on diesel engines but they are still quite new on petrol cars.

So different cars, different turbos. Both cars will be quick but they will have different uses.

If you build the downpipe yourself you won't need to move the battery. You can build the downpipe so the battery is avoided. But on the other hand. Moving the battery to the boot is a good way to redistribute weight. If it doesn't have to be right in the front of the car in front of the front wheels then it would be silly to keep it there.

I'm thinking of buying the 3" system from E**parts and then making the turboneck and moving the battery, it seems stupid to buy the system with a 3" downpipe and then buy another dowpipe that eliminates the turboneck, why don't they just sell the system and the special downpipe together?

I suppose i'm looking at 2 different ideas turbowise either something like what I have at the moment (mitsu 05 1.8 bar boost) which really comes in hard at 2000rpm upwards (which is great fun to drive), but the boost drops off to about 1 bar at high revs, BUT WITHOUT the BOOST DROPOFF????

or

maybe something with which the boost builds more slowly (not lag) to peak higher up the rev range, probably better for the life of the gearbox

I know nothing in terms of turbo specs other than the basics too big/too much lag etc.

What are Holset turbos the 9000 boys seem to like them? Are they the same as VNT?

The other thoughts i'm having are that other than my turbo restricting top end boost prehaps my STANDARD exhaust and cams don't help either.
I'd like to know how much power my car is producing cos even with what i've written above she's a real handful/FUN especially on wet roads (wheelspin in 3rd no trouble) with less abrupt boost there'd be better traction.

No one here seems to change camshafts other than the 85 exhaust cam, normally there's quite a lot to be gained?:roll:

Does anyone know where there are some rolling roads/dyno's here in the South of France?
Anyway i'd better get on with some work I suppose/the joys of being manager working the weekend.:cry:

ejenner
8th March 2009, 07:25 AM
what you do with the cams and the turbo really depends on what you use the car for.

If you are looking for something that's going to be quick around town then stick with the TE05 or similar and keep the cams you have. Just remember that the best performance is between 3 & 4.5k so try to stick to that range. If you are going to the track then it isn't practical to have a track car with all it's power that low down and it becomes necessary to get more power and get it further up the range.

My personal opinion on the wheel-spinning and gearbox breaking torque you can get from the TE05 is that it is probably better off 'tamed' - Just set it up with a nice surge of power in the usable midrange area with a gentle spool-up so you can really move fast if you keep your foot down but the introduction of the power is nice and smooth. When the roads are wet the car will be faster if you keep traction rather than spinning the wheels. I think the best way to get this kind of performance is to get Trionic 5 installed. That's what I'm doing for my Carlsson project. Initially the Carlsson project will be using a TE05 but then I will change to the VNT.

The VNT turbo is nothing like the hoslet. Totally opposite ends of the spectrum. The VNT turbo is highly technical and will generate boost all the time (so the theory goes) The hoslet is actually a commercial turbo for trucks or other commercial vehicles (like boats) and the attaction is that you get a big & durable turbo for a small amount of money. My garrett T35 that I have on my 99T16 is similar to the hoslet. Big, low-tech, cheap... not the best turbos, but they have their niche.

My VNT turbo is based on a Garrett T25 core with the VNT technology on top of that. It is going to make the car very nice to drive round town and on the public roads. Power everywhere. I just need to setup the engine management so the power is deliverd in the right way. Trionic is capable of limiting boost according to gear. So I will put a boost limit on first and second so the car is comfortably within traction limits rather than beyond. In third the boost will be higher as you can really put down as much power as you want by then. But we will see how it works in reality when I actually get the car on the road.

Turbofrenzy
8th March 2009, 09:17 AM
What do I use my car for? Good question, at the moment I don't use my car much. In a couple of weeks i'm moving so the car will be used to get to and from work. To be honest its a toy/project/fun item.
I want to get 300bhp, but keep the car as standard looking underbonnet as possible, also keep the car driveable, it has to go to town sometimes. Money is not unlimited either.
It's really a hobby/obsession, I could of left it standard and put the money in the bank but where's the fun in that.
I'm reliving my youth so to speak.

I agree with what you say, the power delivery needs toning down, if I could soften the delivery that would be good, spread the power up the rev range a bit.
I have Megasquirt on the car, so i'm not going to change to trionic, but I will eventually use MS for ignition and maybe boost/traction control, getting time to do all these things is the problem. Trying to tune MS for fuel on your own is a long term project in itself.
I am keen to do the exhaust, but haven't decided whether to change the cams or the turbo, these jobs can be done in a few hours.
I'm interested also to see how they affect the fueling/how bigger changes are needed.

Alex
8th March 2009, 10:47 AM
what you do with the cams and the turbo really depends on what you use the car for.

If you are looking for something that's going to be quick around town then stick with the TE05 or similar and keep the cams you have. Just remember that the best performance is between 3 & 4.5k so try to stick to that range. If you are going to the track then it isn't practical to have a track car with all it's power that low down and it becomes necessary to get more power and get it further up the range.

My personal opinion on the wheel-spinning and gearbox breaking torque you can get from the TE05 is that it is probably better off 'tamed' - Just set it up with a nice surge of power in the usable midrange area with a gentle spool-up so you can really move fast if you keep your foot down but the introduction of the power is nice and smooth. When the roads are wet the car will be faster if you keep traction rather than spinning the wheels. I think the best way to get this kind of performance is to get Trionic 5 installed. That's what I'm doing for my Carlsson project. Initially the Carlsson project will be using a TE05 but then I will change to the VNT.

The VNT turbo is nothing like the hoslet. Totally opposite ends of the spectrum. The VNT turbo is highly technical and will generate boost all the time (so the theory goes) The hoslet is actually a commercial turbo for trucks or other commercial vehicles (like boats) and the attaction is that you get a big & durable turbo for a small amount of money. My garrett T35 that I have on my 99T16 is similar to the hoslet. Big, low-tech, cheap... not the best turbos, but they have their niche.

My VNT turbo is based on a Garrett T25 core with the VNT technology on top of that. It is going to make the car very nice to drive round town and on the public roads. Power everywhere. I just need to setup the engine management so the power is deliverd in the right way. Trionic is capable of limiting boost according to gear. So I will put a boost limit on first and second so the car is comfortably within traction limits rather than beyond. In third the boost will be higher as you can really put down as much power as you want by then. But we will see how it works in reality when I actually get the car on the road.

You need to drive JohnW's T8. Stock TE05 but with mapped ignition, plus cams and a flowed head. That runs into the limiter for a pastime. My 3dr also has a natural change up point the interesting side of 5.5K, also on stock TE05.

To tame the boost build up slightly, just use a normal bleed valve (ie NOT a ball&spring type). This introduces some wastegate creep, so slows the spool. Also running a softer spring and/or less preload plus the bleed valve can help.

Turbofrenzy
8th March 2009, 02:24 PM
You need to drive JohnW's T8. Stock TE05 but with mapped ignition, plus cams and a flowed head. That runs into the limiter for a pastime. My 3dr also has a natural change up point the interesting side of 5.5K, also on stock TE05.

To tame the boost build up slightly, just use a normal bleed valve (ie NOT a ball&spring type). This introduces some wastegate creep, so slows the spool. Also running a softer spring and/or less preload plus the bleed valve can help.

Does JohnW have a thread?
I have a flowed 2.3 head on the motor and a stock TE05, I can go on to mapped ignition with MS (at the moment i've a modded distributor 22 at idle, 10/11 on full boost), so cams and a 3" exhaust should do it.
I can try deajusting the wastegate actuator, but its not under that much tension at the moment.

philb
8th March 2009, 06:59 PM
Interesting that you can only make 1 bar to the redline. I can only make similar.. this tells me that your car has similar top end power to mine, but 1.8 bar will give yours a massive mid range torque spike.
My car still has the te05, I've done some work recently on the boost map to slow spoolup and maintain boost at higher revs. The power delivery feels quite linear if you bring in the boost slower, and maintain it all the way to the redline - much better than the standard c900 midrange kick followed by a petering out at high revs.
It would be interesting to see the difference an exhaust makes.. I think since there will be less restriction, the maximum boost at high revs will decrease, but power will increase.. lots more efficiency.

Turbofrenzy
8th March 2009, 07:24 PM
Interesting that you can only make 1 bar to the redline. I can only make similar.. this tells me that your car has similar top end power to mine, but 1.8 bar will give yours a massive mid range torque spike.
My car still has the te05, I've done some work recently on the boost map to slow spoolup and maintain boost at higher revs. The power delivery feels quite linear if you bring in the boost slower, and maintain it all the way to the redline - much better than the standard c900 midrange kick followed by a petering out at high revs.
It would be interesting to see the difference an exhaust makes.. I think since there will be less restriction, the maximum boost at high revs will decrease, but power will increase.. lots more efficiency.

My motor has BIG even BRUTAL mid range power because of 1.8ish bar boost and it comes in so quickly, if I floor it at 2000rpm I have 1.8 bar at 2500rpm, but then it drops off seemingly very quickly, BUT I think this is a sensation caused by having so much low/mid range in the first place, if it could be maintained higher up the range maybe at the cost of a little low down that would be great. I remember upping the basic boost at the garage when customers complained of poor performance and those cars felt quick afterwards, BUT NOTHING like this.
The ideal would be 1 bar boost at 2500rpm and 1.8 bar at 5000rpm but it doesn't work like that.

It could be that the exhaust and/or cams are now choking my top end power.
It's all a bit difficult doing everything by the seat of the pants dyno!

Alex
8th March 2009, 07:28 PM
Does JohnW have a thread?
I have a flowed 2.3 head on the motor and a stock TE05, I can go on to mapped ignition with MS (at the moment i've a modded distributor 22 at idle, 10/11 on full boost), so cams and a 3" exhaust should do it.
I can try deajusting the wastegate actuator, but its not under that much tension at the moment.

There isn't a project thread on John's car as it predates the projects forum. You will need to spend some time searching the c900 Performance section.

From memory the car had a custom stainless exhaust and elbow, Fidanza flywheel, FMIC from a T5 Volvo (rather better than the 760 turbo one), gas flowed cylinder head with fast road cam and a K-Star unit to control timing and the 5th injector.

philb
8th March 2009, 07:29 PM
The te05 just can't make more than 1 bar at high rpm. I remember ejenner was running 1.4 or 1.5 bar on a te05 but it tapered down at high revs as well. You are getting 1.8 bar in the midrange by spinning it as fast as it can go, but at higher revs the total flow needed is much greater, so it cannot maintain it.
by pushing it that hard, its just throwing out very hot air. I really doubt you'd notice much difference by turning the midrange down a bit.

So you'll need a bigger turbo. The te05-16g looks like a very good compromise.

Turbofrenzy
8th March 2009, 07:33 PM
There isn't a project thread on John's car as it predates the projects forum. You will need to spend some time searching the c900 Performance section.

From memory the car had a custom stainless exhaust and elbow, Fidanza flywheel, FMIC from a T5 Volvo (rather better than the 760 turbo one), gas flowed cylinder head with fast road cam and a K-Star unit to control timing and the 5th injector.

HMMM
We're back to cams and exhausts, not really the TE05.
This could be within budget!
As Queen sung, "I want it all, I want it now"

Alex
8th March 2009, 07:41 PM
HMMM
We're back to cams and exhausts, not really the TE05.
This could be within budget!
As Queen sung, "I want it all, I want it now"

Remember Johns is a T8 so needs a bit more help than us 16v boys :D

As far as I can tell my top end is stock (though it may have a 2.3 head on it).

As for the turbos TE-05 for 230-240, TE-05 16G for 300-320 and a GT2860RS for 350 or so.

Turbofrenzy
8th March 2009, 07:53 PM
The te05 just can't make more than 1 bar at high rpm. I remember ejenner was running 1.4 or 1.5 bar on a te05 but it tapered down at high revs as well. You are getting 1.8 bar in the midrange by spinning it as fast as it can go, but at higher revs the total flow needed is much greater, so it cannot maintain it.
by pushing it that hard, its just throwing out very hot air. I really doubt you'd notice much difference by turning the midrange down a bit.

So you'll need a bigger turbo. The te05-16g looks like a very good compromise.

Sorry I didn't see this until after I replied to Alex!

So I need a turbo ? But it still could be the exhaust and cams aswell.
I'm fairly certain i'm going to change the exhaust BUT i'm not going to buy the system with 2 down pipes either they send the system with the direct wastegate output downpipe or i'll have to buy the 3" system and modify the downpipe. The problem with that is time, if it doesn't make much difference i'll have to mod it to fit direct to my turbo, then if that makes not a great deal of difference i'm almost back to square 1, but with less cash to burn.

You haven't changed exhausts or cams then, philb?
What power are you making?

Turbofrenzy
8th March 2009, 07:58 PM
Remember Johns is a T8 so needs a bit more help than us 16v boys :D

As far as I can tell my top end is stock (though it may have a 2.3 head on it).

As for the turbos TE-05 for 230-240, TE-05 16G for 300-320 and a GT2860RS for 350 or so.

If a standard TE05 is good for 230-240 then that's no good for me.
Sorry but i'm confused, you don't know what head you have? But the top end is stock?

Alex
9th March 2009, 05:06 AM
If a standard TE05 is good for 230-240 then that's no good for me.
Sorry but i'm confused, you don't know what head you have? But the top end is stock?

I believe the top end to be standard, however, there is a small chance that it has been replaced with a 2.3 head. It certainly hasn't been cammed or flowed.

philb
9th March 2009, 07:28 AM
I don't know what power my car is making. Since the engine is a little tired, I would say its not much more than the standard quoted figure. I hope to get it on the dyno soon. With an exhaust I guess you would get close to 230/240hp, but its not something thats comfortably within the te05s range.
The exhaust is a definite - so why not do that first and see what happens.

Turbofrenzy
9th March 2009, 09:29 AM
I don't know what power my car is making. Since the engine is a little tired, I would say its not much more than the standard quoted figure. I hope to get it on the dyno soon. With an exhaust I guess you would get close to 230/240hp, but its not something thats comfortably within the te05s range.
The exhaust is a definite - so why not do that first and see what happens.

That's kind of the plan, i'm going to order the 3" exhaust this week and get it delivered to a mate in the UK who's coming over with a van at the end of the month (40 quid saving on postage)
I'm also going to order a pair of SD cams from the US which are meant to work well all through the rev range but give a top end boost, they say + 30 bhp.:p
I'm just suddenly feeling a bit tight with the money hoho (no comments from saabmatt please):nono;

philb
9th March 2009, 09:39 AM
Cams are probably mental money, why not just do the exhaust for now, and enjoy the improvement that brings ( supposedly 20-30 hp ).

ejenner
9th March 2009, 03:54 PM
Cams aren't mental money. Quite a cheap mod really. Probably less than a set of performance tyres - for example.

Boost will tail off at high RPM because the engine is using more of the boost. The best way to know how the engine is performing is to feel the way it drives. Dyno's can prove what you're feeling but the figures by themselves don't tell the full story.

The wastegate was practically closed on my 99 towards the end of it's days with the TE05. Forge actuator, heavy spring, long/tight arm, SD boost chip in the DI/APC controller. If it did open I doubt it opened very much.

When we're talking mitsu TE05 v.s. Garrett T35 in the case of my 99 - very little changed between TE05 and T35 - basically just the turbo. This resulted with much better top end performance straight away.

I have a few problems with the setup on my 99 - for example, it looks like the APC valve is not controlling the wastegate. So with the T35 I'm making about 0.6 bar (10-psi)

But what's important is the way the graphs compare.

This is the TE05 but is before I started tightening the wastegate - probably the same way it was when Phil drove the car. Later on it would've been pushing the TE05 to the max and I've seen 2.5bar on the boost gauge. There's two graphs here. One with an extra 1/2 turn on the rod = more of everything!

http://www.red-green.co.uk/web/photos/gallery/99t16/full/July07RRD.JPG.jpg


This is with the T35 - peak power comes higher up the RPM range. The results on this graph are very encouraging. These figures are with a bad exhaust manifold, bad wastegate, bad ignition settings & running on 3 cylinders - only 1/2 compression on cylinder 3 - When I fix all of these problems the car is going to be a real flyer!

http://www.red-green.co.uk/web/photos/gallery/99t16/full/june_08_rr.jpg

Turbofrenzy
9th March 2009, 05:50 PM
Cams are probably mental money, why not just do the exhaust for now, and enjoy the improvement that brings ( supposedly 20-30 hp ).

Exhaust is ordered 3" complete system, but not the extra move the battery downpipe, I couldn't justify the extra 160GBP, i'll get some tube and make one when I get round to it.

The cams are 450USD but plus 129USD delivery which is a pain.
But i'll probably order them, it's only money

saabmatt
9th March 2009, 05:53 PM
You better go and lay down with a cold towel on you head :p

Turbofrenzy
9th March 2009, 06:05 PM
Cams aren't mental money. Quite a cheap mod really. Probably less than a set of performance tyres - for example.

Boost will tail off at high RPM because the engine is using more of the boost. The best way to know how the engine is performing is to feel the way it drives. Dyno's can prove what you're feeling but the figures by themselves don't tell the full story.

The wastegate was practically closed on my 99 towards the end of it's days with the TE05. Forge actuator, heavy spring, long/tight arm, SD boost chip in the DI/APC controller. If it did open I doubt it opened very much.

When we're talking mitsu TE05 v.s. Garrett T35 in the case of my 99 - very little changed between TE05 and T35 - basically just the turbo. This resulted with much better top end performance straight away.

I have a few problems with the setup on my 99 - for example, it looks like the APC valve is not controlling the wastegate. So with the T35 I'm making about 0.6 bar (10-psi)

But what's important is the way the graphs compare.



What a pain the engine wasn't running properly, you could have had some good numbers there.
I see what you mean about the power being further up the range.
My motor peaks earlier/quicker but tails off quicker.
I'm going to stick with the TE05 for the time being, I need to do something with the wastegate actuator cos it doesn't work properly.
I'm off to the breakers tomorrow hopefully, to have a look at a 70mm Dellorto throttle body I spotted the other week, to see if it has the takeoffs and the posibility to fit my inlet manifold. VW wiper relay, wastegate actuator if there's anything that looks likely and some rear seat bumpstops.
There's also some boge rear sports shocks on ebayfrance.
But I can't do it all at once.

Isn't your motor running a bit on the rich side?
When do you think you'll have it fixed?
It'd be nice to get on a rolling road, but like lots of things here in France they're hard to find!

Turbofrenzy
9th March 2009, 06:08 PM
You better go and lay down with a cold towel on you head :p

No its ok i've had a couple of beers and glasses of wine;) :lol:
Have you bought the diff yet?:cool:

saabmatt
9th March 2009, 06:14 PM
No its ok i've had a couple of beers and glasses of wine;) :lol:
Have you bought the diff yet?:cool:


No but I will get the custom T5 Trigger wheel back on Wednesday and I started on the stainless manifold today should be cutting the merge collector on Thursday


If it all lines up OK then Ill get that welded to the turbo flange and I can start on the runners. If the weather holds up could be done in a week or two depending on Exact Welds work load :cheesy:

ejenner
9th March 2009, 07:47 PM
where are you getting the flanges from?

philb
9th March 2009, 08:02 PM
In Ireland ( dunno bout uk or france ) there would be import duty charged on the cams, AND on the delivery. Total price would be a bit over 600 USD, thats 480 euro. I can get a set of toyo t1-rs for 300 euros. I just dunno if they are a good bang for buck, maybe when you've everything else sorted.

Did your car have the SD cams in it when it was on the dyno emmett? Those figures are quite encouraging for the t35.. you can see the tragic drop-off in the boost on the te05 that we keep yammering on about. One last thing.. why do you say bad manifold? Plenty of people have made 300bhp + on the standard manifold.

ejenner
9th March 2009, 09:27 PM
If you know someone in the UK who lives 5 miles up the road from 'Newman Cams' http://www.newman-cams.com (http://www.newman-cams.com/) then you might be able to get that person to buy you a present or maybe return a favour or perhaps send you some cams to try?

The problem with the cast manifold in my case is that I need to deliver the exhaust pulses complete and individually into the divided turbine housing so the pulses hit the twin-scroll in the right order. If I lose any energy by smashing up the pulses and then trying to push them into a divided turbine housing in a single column then I am restricting the flow and not making best use of what I have.

I have had the SD cams in for a long while. One of the first mods. But I don't think they really make that much difference. Newer SD cams might be different. But really, anyone considering cams should get the cams made for the purpose and not buy anything off the shelf. Can cost less to get the right cams made for your car rather than paying a reseller for an off-the-shelf set. Like most things on the standard car, standard cams are made for general purposes and not extreem in any respect.

Turbofrenzy
10th March 2009, 05:35 AM
In Ireland ( dunno bout uk or france ) there would be import duty charged on the cams, AND on the delivery. Total price would be a bit over 600 USD, thats 480 euro. I can get a set of toyo t1-rs for 300 euros. I just dunno if they are a good bang for buck, maybe when you've everything else sorted.

Did your car have the SD cams in it when it was on the dyno emmett? Those figures are quite encouraging for the t35.. you can see the tragic drop-off in the boost on the te05 that we keep yammering on about. One last thing.. why do you say bad manifold? Plenty of people have made 300bhp + on the standard manifold.

You're correct, I got stung for import duty with the Megasquirt, something in the region of 110 euro's, but there is power to be gained, going back a while ago I email several UK cam makers and got negative or no response.

Turbofrenzy
10th March 2009, 05:43 AM
If you know someone in the UK who lives 5 miles up the road from 'Newman Cams' http://www.newman-cams.com (http://www.newman-cams.com/) then you might be able to get that person to buy you a present or maybe return a favour or perhaps send you some cams to try?

The problem with the cast manifold in my case is that I need to deliver the exhaust pulses complete and individually into the divided turbine housing so the pulses hit the twin-scroll in the right order. If I lose any energy by smashing up the pulses and then trying to push them into a divided turbine housing in a single column then I am restricting the flow and not making best use of what I have.

I have had the SD cams in for a long while. One of the first mods. But I don't think they really make that much difference. Newer SD cams might be different. But really, anyone considering cams should get the cams made for the purpose and not buy anything off the shelf. Can cost less to get the right cams made for your car rather than paying a reseller for an off-the-shelf set. Like most things on the standard car, standard cams are made for general purposes and not extreem in any respect.

What speC SD cams are you using, if you give it to me i'll email them and ask some questions, cos on their new cam they're claiming +30bhp which is a sizeable increase.
I've emailed Newman cams to see what they say, would this person who lives not far from them already have some cams to try? It's not Christmas or my birthday yet, but presents are always nice;) :D
I feel my wallet getting tighter by the minute. :o
I'm sure Matt got the flanges in the UK, hopefully he's doing me a manifold aswell:cheesy:
Big Boys and their toy's;oops:

Alex
10th March 2009, 08:27 AM
There is also Cat cams who are European based and do a wide range of specs for the c900. Very reasonable prices as well from what I remember.

ejenner
10th March 2009, 08:55 AM
Cams are always a compromise. So when you buy cams you have to make sure the compromise is in the right place and matched to the rest of your setup. That's why there's no point buying cams off the shelf - not unless you know that they are going to do exactly the right thing to your setup and they are exactly what you need. If you get 30hp extra just by fitting a set of cams then that will be at the expense of something else. Most likely when replacing stock cams you will only be losing fuel economy but from what I understand the cams in the 900 cylinder head are already quite agressive so not sure that SD cams would be a free 30hp extra - i.e. 'no strings attached' - modification.

9000 tuner 'Faero' bought a set of 900 cams from me to put into his T5 9000. As the Saab's have developed over the years they have gone for more econnomy-bias cams.

Abbott racing do an agressive set of cams but they are expensive and I feel all I've said above is still valid for these cams too. For example, if I were keeping the standard TE05 turbo I probably wouldn't be looking to change the camshafts. The TE05 is a turbo for road use so I would keep the road use cams as well.

ejenner
10th March 2009, 09:03 AM
Isn't your motor running a bit on the rich side?

Not really, you can see the increase in fuel is related to the increase in boost. The LH 2.2 & DI/APC controllers talk to eachother when boost is detected and the fuel is increased. I could tune it up a bit more but really, while the engine isn't running right and the APC valve isn't controling the boost there isn't much of a case for further fine tuning. I did two rolling-road runs that evening and I did adjust the fueling in between because I was planning on a long drive up to the track, some hard track use & then back home again... didn't really want to melt any pistons but likewise, didn't matter if it wasn't perfect either.

http://www.red-green.co.uk/web/photos/gallery/99t16/full/june_08_rr.jpg

Turbofrenzy
10th March 2009, 09:59 AM
Yep I understand all you're saying ejenner, compromises etc, +30bhp does seem alot also.
I've been in contact with your cam man and all seems positive, he's replied to my email, we're trying to pin down my needs in laymans terms, i'm an ex'mechanic not a cam specialist. The price is good also!

Alex Yep I looked into Catcams before, they do a range but I think that they were expensive.

Been to the breakers this morning, got a wastegate actuator, seat bumpstops and the big Dellorto throttle body with throttle switch and intake pipe with take offs for idle valve etc 30euro's. The only thing I couldn't find were any Golf/Polo wiper relays, but there are 2 more breakers to visit this afternoon on route to painting and decorating the apartment, yippie:(


http://www.terrimoore.co.uk/clive/TurboFrenzy/bored.jpg

Just got to get a piece of flat alloy to make up an adapter plate and open out the inlet manifold a bit.

http://www.terrimoore.co.uk/clive/TurboFrenzy/dellorto.jpghttp://www.terrimoore.co.uk/clive/TurboFrenzy/both.jpg

ejenner
10th March 2009, 10:50 AM
explain about this bigger throttle-body. Where does it come from. Do you know if the 2.1 throttle is bigger than the 2.0? - coz I already got one of them and I think that's what I was planning to use.

Turbofrenzy
10th March 2009, 03:56 PM
explain about this bigger throttle-body. Where does it come from. Do you know if the 2.1 throttle is bigger than the 2.0? - coz I already got one of them and I think that's what I was planning to use.

All classic 900 2.0 litre 16v and 9000 4cyl throttle bodies have the same size butterfly, the 8 valves and 2.1's i'm not sure, but I can't see them being any different.
The throttle body I found was a Dellorto item fitted to a 6cyl 24v Alfa 3.0 litre something or other.

What have you been using in the camshaft department? With what results?
Newman seem very helpful.

No alu for the adapter or VW relays found yet.

ejenner
10th March 2009, 06:53 PM
Here's the 900aero.com page on camshafts: http://www.900aero.com/main/tech_main_cams.htm

I couldn't possibly explain any better than this. I'm guessing it would be very useful info when making up a custom cam as well.

There is a version of the SD cam listed but I'm not sure if that's the earlier cam or the later version and likewise, I'm not sure which one I've got.

I've noticed very little difference between my SD cams and the ones that were in the head before. Really wouldn't be able to tell the difference without back-2-back tests. Very mild.

Turbofrenzy
11th March 2009, 09:22 AM
I've read the 900aero thing on cams before and it seems that the best mod is to fit solid lifters, but what a pain in the a*se shimming up 16 valves.

I certainly don't want to rev to 8000rpm, that would be asking for trouble.

6500/7000 rpm prehaps rarely.
What I want is something that targets the 3-6000 rpm rev range.

saabmatt
12th March 2009, 09:46 AM
No but I will get the custom T5 Trigger wheel back on Wednesday

Hi Mate, picked up my trigger wheel yesterday all looks good.

Its cut on a water jet from 5mm mild steel, I will set it up on the spare engine so I can workout where the flywheel back plate needs drilling for the sensor and the sensor spacing :cheesy:

http://www.terrimoore.co.uk/matt/trig1.jpg
http://www.terrimoore.co.uk/matt/trig2.jpg
http://www.terrimoore.co.uk/matt/trig3.jpg
http://www.terrimoore.co.uk/matt/trig4.jpg
http://www.terrimoore.co.uk/matt/trig5.jpg

TooMany2cvs
12th March 2009, 10:03 AM
That is officially trigger-wheel-porn.

I'd not thought about that as a location for the trigger - it's an inspired idea, though. Roughly how much did it rush you?

saabmatt
12th March 2009, 02:33 PM
Got started on your header today Soft Lad! :cool:

Off to Exact Weld tommorow. :D

http://www.terrimoore.co.uk/matt/header1.jpg
http://www.terrimoore.co.uk/matt/header2.jpg
http://www.terrimoore.co.uk/matt/header3.jpg

Turbofrenzy
12th March 2009, 03:34 PM
Good news on both counts there soapy, all the years we worked together weren't wasted. You'll probably get the trionic working before I find a bit of ally to make an adapter for my big throttle body. In between f***ing decorating i've had lots of "non monsieur ca n'existe pas". I had to give the registration document at the Saab dealers for an oil filter yesterday and we thought THG was bad sometimes!

Turbofrenzy
13th March 2009, 09:35 AM
Piper don't do anything for my 900
Kent need to see some cams to see what they can do
SD in the US have 1 option listed for 449 usd + 129 usd delivery
Cat cams want 716 euro's for each of the 3 types listed without changing followers
Newmans want 335GBP inc vat and delivery, but they need a set of turbo cams to work with, anyone got a spare set of standard 900T16 cams to donate, prehaps if they only live 5 miles away, they could even take them round???

I've located a bit of steel, one of the private boaters was hanging on to, so I can now look at fabricating an adapter to fit the throttle body.
Also on Sunday I can try out the other wastegate actuator.

E*Kparts have a delay of 7-10 days on my exhaust, so it may miss its lift from the UK to France

Sometimes things just don't go to plans.
Anyway boat painting now, its tee shirt weather here, even had the A/C going the other day:p

saabmatt
13th March 2009, 10:15 AM
I have spare cams but don't know where they are (Newmans that is not the cams)?? :roll:

EDIT: I could go it's about 40mins on a good day!

Header parts are at the welders, their going to weld two pieces together to make two halfs then I will collect cut to fit the flange and ensure the two halfs match up OK then I will return them for final welding cool. :p

ejenner
13th March 2009, 11:27 AM
I'm not far away either. If Saabmatt can't do it then I can go to Newman Cams.

Their price is lower than the others and they've been mentioned in lots of magazine feature-car reviews so don't doubt the quality of their work. If we get something sorted then these guys will turn into an alternate supplier offering cams for the Saab head. Personally... looking for much the same as suggested. Power shifted to the 3.5 to 7k range. I want to put these cams into a T7 head - believe they're interchangable.

Saabmatt's idea isn't entirely new. I've seen pictures elsewhere on the net showing a flywheel that's been machined on the rear to provide pickup's for the sensor. My only critisim of this design is that it will be slightly annoying to fit as the engine will need to come out or at least dismantled to drill the plate to fit the sensor. A pully mounted sensor does not need to be done like this.

Saabmatt - the bits of exhaust you're putting together there look like the kinds of bits I'd like to get my hands on. But I have particular requirments for the design of my manifold so I will want self-assembly - I just need to get the parts.

philb
13th March 2009, 11:34 AM
That trigger wheel is excellent. I'm getting very tempted by this t5 lark.. I have another car that I could use my megasquirt box on.

saabmatt
13th March 2009, 11:37 AM
My only critisim of this design is that it will be slightly annoying to fit as the engine will need to come out or at least dismantled to drill the plate to fit the sensor. A pully mounted sensor does not need to be done like this.



No engine wont need to come out there is lots of room to drill one hole for the sensor and one for a fixing screew and with AC it can't be mounted to the pulley so theres no real other option.

Of course the clutch and flywheel will need removing but thats no big deal, should be removed, mounted and refitted in a couple of hours.

And of course I WILL BE ABLE CHANGE BY BELTS IN THE FUTURE. :cool:


Saabmatt - the bits of exhaust you're putting together there look like the kinds of bits I'd like to get my hands on. But I have particular requirments for the design of my manifold so I will want self-assembly - I just need to get the parts.

I am using http://www.ojzengineering.co.uk/ (http://www.ojzengineering.co.uk/) for SS parts very helpful and fast service just wish I had a Tig!

ejenner
13th March 2009, 02:25 PM
you can get tig welders off ebay for cheap. Might not be full industrial quality but maybe ok for a bit of messing about at home.

I guess if you get a hand-held power drill and clear out the engine bay then you could drill the plate. But the hole will need to be drilled in exactly the right place so the sensor works properly - either that or the disk will need to be adjustable.

The only restriction on me removing the belts is two cable-ties. But I agree, if anybody decided to make a batch of trigger wheels and a sensor bracket then it would be better to mount the sensor outside the belts or at least design the cable clip so the cable does not wrap around the belts as with my design.

saabmatt
13th March 2009, 02:53 PM
It will be easy:

10 min job measure from the centre of the crank to a good spot on the back plate, drill, fit flywheel, set to TDC, mark through hole, remove flywheel, line up/fit trigger wheel, measure for correct sensor clearance with feeler gauge fit washers as necessary, mount sensor, job done, refit flywheel clutch.

Happy Days it's not Rocket Science. :cool:

Alex
13th March 2009, 04:29 PM
Their price is lower than the others and they've been mentioned in lots of magazine feature-car reviews so don't doubt the quality of their work. If we get something sorted then these guys will turn into an alternate supplier offering cams for the Saab head. Personally... looking for much the same as suggested. Power shifted to the 3.5 to 7k range. I want to put these cams into a T7 head - believe they're interchangable.


As Newman cams have requested a set of existing cams to work with I wonder if they are just modifying the existing cams, which is rather cheaper than making a new cam from a blank as Cat do.

Turbofrenzy
13th March 2009, 05:29 PM
As Newman cams have requested a set of existing cams to work with I wonder if they are just modifying the existing cams, which is rather cheaper than making a new cam from a blank as Cat do.

Yep they're going to regrind them, but I don't have a problem with that. I have to work to a budget unfortionately:cry: But i'm keen i'll be the guinea pig.
They do want turbo cams though.

Dellorto throttle body will fit, with 3 spacers of 5mm steel, pics to follow, I need a shower and to eat:roll:

Turbofrenzy
13th March 2009, 07:06 PM
Well the throttle body will fit. 3 hours cutting bits of 5mm steel plate and about 3 hours to go, but it will fit, as you can see from the second picture I haven't yet made the middle spacer, but the mount to the throttle body and inlet manifold are done, I also need to look at attaching the support bracket to the gearbox and opening out the inlet manifold as much as possible (the opening is smaller than the throttle body)
http://www.terrimoore.co.uk/clive/TurboFrenzy/del1.jpg

http://www.terrimoore.co.uk/clive/TurboFrenzy/del2.jpg

http://www.terrimoore.co.uk/clive/TurboFrenzy/del3.jpg

saabmatt
14th March 2009, 04:46 AM
What I would do is use a single peace of ally (if you can find any) but thicker say 15mm

Counter sink the manifold mounting bolts, use Allen Key head so you just need to drill one hole then open it out and drill down until the head sinks flush.


Then drill the four for the body, when it all mounts nice open out the main opening.

Does look a monster that thing, got a side by side shot with the stock one?

Turbofrenzy
14th March 2009, 08:55 AM
What I would do is use a single peace of ally (if you can find any) but thicker say 15mm

Counter sink the manifold mounting bolts, use Allen Key head so you just need to drill one hole then open it out and drill down until the head sinks flush.


Then drill the four for the body, when it all mounts nice open out the main opening.

Does look a monster that thing, got a side by side shot with the stock one?

I wanted to use ally 12/15mm thick, I posted above sarcastically it doesn't seem to exist here. Like lots of things.

I've found some countersunk screws so with a couple of mods what's in the photo's should work as you say above. I'll take some more pics later.

When will you be fitting/tuning T5, need a hand?

saabmatt
14th March 2009, 09:11 AM
When will you be fitting/tuning T5, need a hand?

Hi Mate,

T5, funny you should ask that Im just dumping the first of the ECU's files to the PC so I can find out what its from and start to modify for the 900.

I was trying to do this last night but my power supply wasnt up to it, just bought a new one from RS Trade and worked first time.

As far as hardware is concerned I need an Air Temp Sensor, fit the trigger wheel and sort the wiring, think I said on the phone thinking of using the Lucas wiring with mods as necessary like you did for MS.

ejenner
14th March 2009, 10:23 AM
Contact faero on UKSaabs. He's got loads of .bin files.

The one I'm planning to use on mine is from a GM900 2.0 with a T25 turbo. I'm using that on my 900 2.0 engine with a flowed head and a TE05 turbo. I think those two engines would be similar enough to make a good starting point. T5 is very good at adapting to the conditions. You just need to check the logs afterwards to make sure it isn't kicking into the emergency maps. i.e. if the normal maps aren't working it will go to an ultra-safe map to avoid damage. If this is happening all the time then you need a better map or you need to correct the problem with the existing map.

Anyway, faero has the .bin I'm using as he took it out of my ECU which came from the afore mentioned 2.0 GM900. Would be great if you were to test it for me! ;)

ejenner
14th March 2009, 10:25 AM
p.s. - I wouldn't mod the wiring. That's the biggest balls-ache when it comes to swapping ECU's... [got the t-shirt] - better off to just take a complete end-to-end loom from a T5 car without cutting anything and then adapt that to fit to the c900 - i.e by shortening or lengthening wires as necessary.

saabmatt
14th March 2009, 03:18 PM
p.s. - I wouldn't mod the wiring. That's the biggest balls-ache when it comes to swapping ECU's... [got the t-shirt] - better off to just take a complete end-to-end loom from a T5 car without cutting anything and then adapt that to fit to the c900 - i.e by shortening or lengthening wires as necessary.

I have the "end-to-end loom" but for the extra wiring required I think it may be easier to just add the extra wiring for crank sensor, DI, Air Temp, Solenoid valve etc may be wrong but not sure will look into that nearer the time, just seams stupid to rip out wiring for injectors, throttle pot, coolant temp etc just to replace with the same.

Turbofrenzy
14th March 2009, 06:51 PM
What I would do is use a single peace of ally (if you can find any) but thicker say 15mm

Counter sink the manifold mounting bolts, use Allen Key head so you just need to drill one hole then open it out and drill down until the head sinks flush.


Then drill the four for the body, when it all mounts nice open out the main opening.

Does look a monster that thing, got a side by side shot with the stock one?

I countersunk the plate that bolts to the manifold and used 3 allen headed bolts to mount it, the second plate then sits between the 1st plate and the throttle body. I burnt out one of works electric drills cutting the 70mm hole with a hole saw, WHOOPS, i'll have to give myself a bollocking Monday morning.

Photos of bodies as asked for by matt, more to follow, but my bluetooths playing up!

http://www.terrimoore.co.uk/clive/TurboFrenzy/image017.jpg

http://www.terrimoore.co.uk/clive/TurboFrenzy/image016.jpg

http://www.terrimoore.co.uk/clive/TurboFrenzy/image015.jpg

ejenner
15th March 2009, 05:39 AM
I like the fact that the newer throttle you're using is narrower. That would be useful for fitting in more intercooler tubing. Gives another couple of inches of space.

Turbofrenzy
15th March 2009, 06:05 AM
I like the fact that the newer throttle you're using is narrower. That would be useful for fitting in more intercooler tubing. Gives another couple of inches of space.

Very true, when I get that far, at the moment i'm fitting it to my 2 litre inlet manifold in the workshop and its taking longer than I thought (like everything does) it actually fits quite well now, but the manifold needs opening out by about 8mm and it will take away the mating surface for the old throttle housing 'o'ring. If I make a mistake when modding the 2.1 manifold or the motor doesn't like it, it could be costly. I wouldn't be able to refit the Saab throttle body.
I will probably have to fit the throttle body and try it first, then if all appears to be well I can port the entry to the 2.1 manifold.

I must go back to the breakers, there's a 900i 16v, I didn't think at the time, it could be a 2.1!

Who's the cam expert on this forum?
Who's changed cams and what were the results?
I'm off to have a look at the wastegate actuator situation.

ejenner
15th March 2009, 07:02 AM
Well I guess a few people on here have changed cams over the years... but most recently it would be IronJoe but unluckily he blew his engine... so he knows a thing or too about what you can and can't get away with.

Turbofrenzy
15th March 2009, 10:57 AM
Well I did a bit outside, had a look at the wastegate actuator, the diaphram leaks under slight pressure, then seals with more pressure or if the pressures applied quickly. However the valve actuating spindle in the turbo is very loose and worn, as is the pivot the wastegate actuator works on.
I backed it off a turn when I refitted it, the tested the car and it still goes well, but the boost didn't seem to drop off so quickly.
Here's the car after a wash
http://www.terrimoore.co.uk/clive/TurboFrenzy/car.jpg
http://www.terrimoore.co.uk/clive/TurboFrenzy/carcanal.jpg

It's really nice to be able to work on the car in the sun.

Whilst out there I had a measure up for some intercooler pipes, but I cannot make my mind up whether th go for 3" or 2.5", can you go too big? Also the turbo output to the intercooler is only about 2" so is there any benefit to fitting huge intercooler pipes?

ejenner
16th March 2009, 07:00 AM
There are a few things to consider when setting up the intercooler pipework.

1. Space under the bonnet. Need enough room for the pipes.
2. Distance the air travels. Shorter is better.
3. Flexibility, need to make sure the movement of the engine isn't going to split the joints in the hoses. When under pressure they are more likely to split or pop.
4. Heat retained in the pipework. Warm pipes will make the air warmer, only a minor concern, but aluminum is good at retaining heat and likewise other materials have other properties. Basically you can choose either aluminum, stainless-steel or Samco-type silicone.
5. Diameter: too big and the air will get lost. Too small and you will generate heat because the air is going to get compressed and the turbo will be pushing against pressure.
6. Corners and joins, pipework needs to be as smooth as possible on the inside.
7. Cost. Has to be within your budget. Can get very expensive if you get custom fabricated mandel bent stainless tubing.


Probably a few other things as well. But I can't think of them now. Fair to say though... lots to think about.

saabmatt
16th March 2009, 07:14 AM
EDIT:

Not Paying Attention:roll:

Turbofrenzy
16th March 2009, 04:16 PM
EDIT:

Not Paying Attention:roll:
sorry Matt you've lost me!

ejenner
16th March 2009, 05:55 PM
he was about to tell me you already had a front-mounted intercooler but then he he realised I haddn't said anything about the kind of charge cooling solution you had in place so he took out the mistake and replaced it with the 'not paying attention' :cool:

Turbofrenzy
31st March 2009, 08:46 AM
My big boy exhaust arrived from the UK and has duly been fittedhttp://www.terrimoore.co.uk/clive/TurboFrenzy/jt3.jpgReplacing the standard system
http://www.terrimoore.co.uk/clive/TurboFrenzy/exold.jpg

Sorry about the phone pics, but you can see the difference
http://www.terrimoore.co.uk/clive/TurboFrenzy/downpipes.jpg

I'm pleased with the performance increase there have definitely been a few horses released and the sound is great, at idle not too much different to the original, but as the revs increase so does the noise, on WOT its quite noisy.
The downside was the fitting, 4 hours with the car up on ramps, of which 3 hours was trying to align the thing so it didn't hit anything, it was a pig.
Throttle response is better and top end power is up aswell. The MS needs tweaking because she's definitely weaker at mid/top end.
No progress with cams and throttle housing due to moving house.

Turbofrenzy
20th April 2009, 08:18 AM
I bought a nice new high lift trolley jack the other day and got my lazy a*** under the car, removed the whole exhaust with fittings and started again, 2 hours of jiggling and the exhaust now only touches going over the biggest of speed ramps.
I do like the performance increase though.
Whilst testing the car with the realigned exhaust, I noticed for the second time, a big waft of smoke on the overrun, 5000rpm in 4th and a big cloud when I reaccelerated, oh dear looks like its soon going to be turbo time, shame i'll just have to fit a bigger one.

saabmatt
1st May 2009, 06:26 PM
Some progress on ur header lad! Bit slow, they had the bits 6 weeks but only cost me 20 result

http://www.terrimoore.co.uk/matt/header4.jpg
http://www.terrimoore.co.uk/matt/header5.jpg
http://www.terrimoore.co.uk/matt/header6.jpg
http://www.terrimoore.co.uk/matt/header7.jpg
http://www.terrimoore.co.uk/matt/header8.jpg
http://www.terrimoore.co.uk/matt/header9.jpg
http://www.terrimoore.co.uk/matt/header10.jpg
http://www.terrimoore.co.uk/matt/header11.jpg

saabmatt
1st May 2009, 06:42 PM
Also I started on the T5 conversion! All the bits are fitted, flywheel with trigger wheel, cps, injectors, plugs/DI, modded 9000 throttle body, AIT, AIC, BCV etc etc

Started on the wiring today, basically everything is routed now I need to make the basic connections to get it running once it runs I can remove the old Lucas, Ignition, APC stuff and loom tape it.

CPS
http://www.terrimoore.co.uk/matt/t51.jpg

Tigger & CPS
http://www.terrimoore.co.uk/matt/t52.jpg

BCV, AIC, AIT, Throttle Body/Switch, Injectors etc etc
http://www.terrimoore.co.uk/matt/t53.jpg

ejenner
2nd May 2009, 06:03 AM
do you think it's worth starting your own project thread. You're doing some interesting stuff. Worth having a thread of your own.

Turbofrenzy
2nd May 2009, 03:10 PM
do you think it's worth starting your own project thread. You're doing some interesting stuff. Worth having a thread of your own.

I agree you should do a project thread, you get plenty of time! HOHO
Will the manifold be done before I get there? Will it weight less than 20kg? I'm on sleazyjet remember.
The cam people need about a 5 day turnaround period, hint HINT!

saabmatt
2nd May 2009, 03:29 PM
Will the manifold be done before I get there?

Hi Mate, not looking good, only three weeks and the last lot of welding took 4-6! will have to post it on.

I'm now running on T5 or at least I was until I striped the Lucas out now its stopped :roll:, lost a signal somewhere! Lucas and the Main and Fuel pump relays are kind of inter tangled, should be easy to sort out.

I also wasted four Hrs today ;oops:, two because I had the crank and throttle switch plugs round the wrong way, and after checking wiring and signals etc I found I had no pulse at the injectors.

The other two hours was trying to get a tach signal I tried four different places, and all it was. the ignition amp was still plugged in! must have been grounding the signal, what a pain soon as I unplugged it the rev counter sprung to life.

Just need to sort out the Air Con, and by the way what did you do about the purge valve with MS??

Turbofrenzy
2nd May 2009, 03:37 PM
What purge valve? I don't have the luxury of a CAT on the old heap.
I had issues with main and pump relays, the answers in my thread, but I can't remember what it was, something about earthing one but not the other.
CAMS hint, Hint, HINT

saabmatt
2nd May 2009, 03:40 PM
No Good you saying Hint Hint, when I don't know what ur up to :confused:

Turbofrenzy
2nd May 2009, 03:57 PM
No Good you saying Hint Hint, when I don't know what ur up to :confused:

Sorry Matt, I thought you knew, I need a kind person to send a set of standard 16v turbo cams to the grinders in time for me to pick them up from your place to bring back here and fit to the smokey beast.

I think with the above cams, manifold, some sort of upgraded turbo, swanneck outlet to the 3" downpipe and some MS tuning i'll be over the 300bhp target.
Just the noisy fuel pump, the holed a/c condenser, big throttle body and an oil leak to do.

Still 3 days off next week so hopefully i'll get something done

ejenner
2nd May 2009, 04:12 PM
Saabmatt, just turn it off using T5_suite. It's just a tick-box. I also turned off the VSS security system and a couple of other things. Don't need all that stuff on a 900 conversion.

saabmatt
2nd May 2009, 09:03 PM
Saabmatt, just turn it off using T5_suite. It's just a tick-box. I also turned off the VSS security system and a couple of other things. Don't need all that stuff on a 900 conversion.

I know you can turn off but how does the tank vent?

ejenner
3rd May 2009, 04:53 AM
My car has not got a charcoal canister.

Turbofrenzy
3rd May 2009, 05:20 AM
I know you can turn off but how does the tank vent?

Can't you just unplug the pipe on the canister and leave it open to air.
I think thats how non CAT car like mine are.

saabmatt
3rd May 2009, 07:02 AM
I wont have a cat either but I would like to vent the tank the same way Lucas does.

Should be able to connect two wires from Lucas to T5 job done, just which way round? :roll:

Anyway back on the case, :confused: booked a rooms for us for the Cadwell park day by the way :D

ejenner
3rd May 2009, 07:35 AM
Thing is. It takes about 1/2 a second to untick the box on t5_suite. You'll also have to get into the ECU to tune it. So might as well get in there sooner rather than later. I've got the coms cable and a laptop. Bring it up here if you want. Need to get some insulated crocodile clips to clip onto the terminals and then solder the pins onto the board

saabmatt
3rd May 2009, 07:46 AM
Thing is. It takes about 1/2 a second to untick the box on t5_suite. You'll also have to get into the ECU to tune it. So might as well get in there sooner rather than later. I've got the coms cable and a laptop. Bring it up here if you want. Need to get some insulated crocodile clips to clip onto the terminals and then solder the pins onto the board

Many Thanks, I have the bdm and pins soldered etc but thats another story.

I brought two T5.5 Ecus one wouldnt flash one would :confused:

So I brought two more from someone who was tuning an Aero until he run it dry of oil.

The one that flashed OK wont start the car ;oops: (could be VSS but think I disabled it) so now I have two boxes which do start the car but both have a 2.3 tune on them :(.

I need to re flash the first box (which has a 2.0L FPT tune) to find out why it wont run the car, if that works then Im OK I still have two spare other wise back down to one on the car one to tune, if that then goes wonky Im down to one :cry:

ejenner
3rd May 2009, 07:51 AM
You can replace the flash chips on the board. Ballsache, but can be done. That's the part that breaks when they won't flash.

When VSS has imobilised the engine the symptoms are that it will start but only runs for around 1 or 2 revolutions and then shuts down again.

saabmatt
3rd May 2009, 08:04 AM
mmmm OK well that's not the problem then, on a more positive note car starts again! :cheesy: relay feed problem after removing the Lucas engine loom :o

Turbofrenzy
3rd May 2009, 08:04 AM
What fun, it seems just like when I first tried to get mine running on MS

saabmatt
3rd May 2009, 08:20 AM
What fun, it seems just like when I first tried to get mine running on MS

Why don't we all go by Evo's or Impreza's :confused:

I wired the check engine light and get..................... "a check engine light" 6 flashes which is Oxygen sensor, (it is a 9000 O2 one) so think thats due to the 2.3 tune should be OK once a 2.0L tune is on the box

Turbofrenzy
3rd May 2009, 08:33 AM
[QUOTE=saabmatt;1508200]Why don't we all go by Evo's or Impreza's :confused:

Cos that would be too easy and with the amount of experience we have with these Saabs we can do anything. It just takes a lot longer than when we had all the tools and when we where younger. Keep at it.

Turbofrenzy
11th May 2009, 04:02 PM
Last week actually saw a little progress.
I got the cruise control working again, just one of the pedal switches playing up.
Investigated the A/C situation, the condenser is holed, so needs replacing, but the pipe from the receiver/drier won't come off without pulling all the threads off, so a new pipe needed aswell.
Went to the breakers for the A/C pipe (no luck the only 900 with A/C has the pipe broken) but actually found a vw wiper relay, which was duely fitted and works well.
I actually did about an hours MS tuning, again improvements, light throttle AFR is in the 15-16s, slight load 14-15s, WOT 11-12s, the problem is low revs, overrun and idle 11-13s (too rich), but as yet i've found no way of weakening it off. Changing the VE table in these zones has no real effect, I might have to lessen the basic fuel required setting and the richen up the mid/top of the VE table. Any ideas welcome;)
I've ordered a Walbro gss341 to plumb into the fuel tank to replace the noisey standard pump.
I'm seriously looking into changing the turbo, maybe a disco potato.:D

IronJoe
11th May 2009, 04:43 PM
My problem at idle was that the RPMs were bouncing between two different bins, which didn't match my AFR target table. So the actual AFR would go a touch lean, then enter a different bin, add fuel to go rich, then back to the other bin, etc etc etc. I spent quite a while going into excel and changing the AFR target table, ve table, and spark table to match up - now my idle AFR doesn't bounce around at all.

Turbofrenzy
14th May 2009, 03:19 PM
Last week actually saw a little progress.
I got the cruise control working again, just one of the pedal switches playing up.
Investigated the A/C situation, the condenser is holed, so needs replacing, but the pipe from the receiver/drier won't come off without pulling all the threads off, so a new pipe needed aswell.
Went to the breakers for the A/C pipe (no luck the only 900 with A/C has the pipe broken) but actually found a vw wiper relay, which was duely fitted and works well.
I actually did about an hours MS tuning, again improvements, light throttle AFR is in the 15-16s, slight load 14-15s, WOT 11-12s, the problem is low revs, overrun and idle 11-13s (too rich), but as yet i've found no way of weakening it off. Changing the VE table in these zones has no real effect, I might have to lessen the basic fuel required setting and the richen up the mid/top of the VE table. Any ideas welcome;)
I've ordered a Walbro gss341 to plumb into the fuel tank to replace the noisey standard pump.
I'm seriously looking into changing the turbo, maybe a disco potato.:D

Well i've done quite a lot of changing things around, VE table, injector opening time and required fuel and nothing gives me a good AFR at idle.
I even highjacked keithg's ve table and required fuel 8.8, because it was very different to mine, required fuel 9.6/4.8, but that made it run even richer at idle (10.9), I twiddled around with it and got moving between 11-12 exactly what I get with my settings, but I can't get 14-15 at idle.

:(Help you MS experts, its like something is stopping me weakening low revs/idle.
Everything else is ok fuel wise (well the pumps noisy but the new ones already at saabmatts house, but that doesn't make it run rich at idle)
I must be missing something as usual!

The funny thing is it doesn't stall and idle's well, I wonder if my A/F gauge is working properly, i've recalibrated it and i'm sure the settings are correct in Megatune.

IronJoe
14th May 2009, 04:54 PM
Well i've done quite a lot of changing things around, VE table, injector opening time and required fuel and nothing gives me a good AFR at idle.
I even highjacked keithg's ve table and required fuel 8.8, because it was very different to mine, required fuel 9.6/4.8, but that made it run even richer at idle (10.9), I twiddled around with it and got moving between 11-12 exactly what I get with my settings, but I can't get 14-15 at idle.

:(Help you MS experts, its like something is stopping me weakening low revs/idle.
Everything else is ok fuel wise (well the pumps noisy but the new ones already at saabmatts house, but that doesn't make it run rich at idle)
I must be missing something as usual!

The funny thing is it doesn't stall and idle's well, I wonder if my A/F gauge is working properly, i've recalibrated it and i'm sure the settings are correct in Megatune. Are you seeing the same #s on the gauge and on MS?

I was having a problem with the #s on the gauge being 1.5-2 points richer than what was in MS. I ended up grounding the gauge to the same spot as the MS box, now it's dead even.

Also, when's the last time you calibrated the sensor?

EDIT: Post your VE table.

Turbofrenzy
15th May 2009, 03:14 AM
This is the table i've been using, i've even added a 20kpa line to see if it would help. This was running 1.3ms injector time and 9.6/4.8 req fuel.

IronJoe
15th May 2009, 12:58 PM
Why such a large injector opening time? What size injectors?

Turbofrenzy
15th May 2009, 04:12 PM
I'm using trionic red injectors and from memory the opening time is what I worked out from the MS instructions. I could be wrong, by all means give your opinion. What are you running table wise, injector time and req fuel?
Something that springs to mind is the EGO setting this is set at 1300rpm, right were I have a hickup sometimes and below which I can't seem to weaken the mixture. May be a coincidence BUT

IronJoe
15th May 2009, 04:39 PM
Here's my settings, fine-tuned by the local MS guru. He's done on the order of 20 cars and he specializes in getting them to pass emissions.

Fuel settings:
http://www.saabcentral.com/phpgallery/albums/album122/req_fuel.png

VE table (ignore top 3 rows, haven't mapped those boost levels yet)
http://www.saabcentral.com/phpgallery/albums/album122/ve_table_001.png

Spark Table:
http://www.saabcentral.com/phpgallery/albums/album122/spark.png

Turbofrenzy
15th May 2009, 06:08 PM
Interesting, i'm on simulaineous injector staging, you're on alternating.
From memory I only have one wire firing all 4 injectors.
What difference does this make? I'm a bit lost.
The strange thing is the motor runs well other than at very low revs/idle.
So I can't be that far off.

Turbofrenzy
21st May 2009, 04:31 PM
I've been adjusting the VE table again on the MS suppliers recommendations, i've got the AFR to move into the 14/15's at idle, but after a while going back into the 12's, a strange thing is the engine idles better richer (11/12's) than weaker (14/15's) it's quite lumpy. Both my dash AFR gauge (LC1) and the MS AFR read the same.

Here's the current settings.

http://www.terrimoore.co.uk/clive/turbofrenzy/refF.jpg


http://www.terrimoore.co.uk/clive/turbofrenzy/VEtable.jpg

I'm using trionic red injectors.

IronJoe
21st May 2009, 04:44 PM
"After a while"


^^^ Could this have something to do with CLT related enrichments? Or CLT related ignition?

Turbofrenzy
21st May 2009, 06:19 PM
"After a while"


^^^ Could this have something to do with CLT related enrichments? Or CLT related ignition?

I have a lot of ideas about what it could be but no answers.
My MS supplier is saying cut the injector opening time and change the ignition timing at certain revs, which I can't do at the moment because i'm running distributor timing with the boost retard mod done, 23 off boost, 10 on full boost. Thinking about it I could reset the idle timing back to 16 just to see if it affects the AFR.
All these things have a knock on effect.

Turbofrenzy
7th June 2009, 08:43 AM
After a bit of a break, including a visit to the UK and a drive round Cadwell park in saabmatts 900 at the saab trackday (some interesting cars aswell) its back to work on my car.

I've fitted the saabrally steel diff plate and refilled the gearbox with Mobil fully synthetic 75w oil 40€ for 3 litres.
Oil and filter change with Mobil 1 priced wrong in the supermarket 20€.
I noticed something interesting when warming the car up to do the oil change, the AFR problem is temperature related, when the engine isn't fully hot the AFR is ok 14.5-16, when fully hot 12. The first clue!
Fuel filter changed.
Regapped spark plugs for the first time in about 2 years, they were a bit big (approx 42 thou) reset to 30 thou.
Fitted Skyline fuel pump insert 255LPH, rated to 500bhp, this was fairly easy to fit, strip assembly out of car, unclip plastic housing, remove old pump, modify rubber fixings and fit, reassemble. All the photo's/instruction are in the 9000 forum. I haven't driven the car since cos I got something stuck in my foot.
I've removed the aircon condenser, it needs replacing (has a leak), as does the pipe to the receiver/drier (because it broke when taking it off)
At the same time i've replaced the leaking intercooler hose, it's really gutless with just 0.6bar, even worse when the hose split completely (normally aspirated, no boost). The bottom end pull was ok but no mid range/top end at all.

I'm a bit conserned about the noise level of the jt3 attracting the wrong sort of attention after hearing other cars pass at Cadwell with the same exhaust, I might have to fit an extra silencer.

Got a spare distributor from saabmatt to modify to try and get a better start up when I switch MS ignition back on.

The new turbo's on order T3/T4 0.63, when that arrives i'll have to move the battery and make the downpipe. I might even wait t'ill saabmatt gets the manifold done.
Lots of parts to order.
Window motor, intercooler pipe kit, battery cable, 3" exhaust parts, condenser, air con pipe.

saabmatt
13th June 2009, 05:39 PM
Made some progress on your header today soft lad! :o

http://www.terrimoore.co.uk/matt/header12.jpg

http://www.terrimoore.co.uk/matt/header13.jpg

http://www.terrimoore.co.uk/matt/header14.jpg

The four bits in this pic was all that I had left, good guestimate or what! :lol:

http://www.terrimoore.co.uk/matt/header15.jpg

http://www.terrimoore.co.uk/matt/header16.jpg

A few bits to do, I want to shorten the number 3 runner do a test fit then it needs to be stripped cleaned and reassembled and off to be welded cool.

It came out really well no bad joint or gaps and nice smooth flowing pipes.

Could be with you in a couple of weeks.or not :confused:

Squaab99t
14th June 2009, 12:29 AM
Looks pretty nice...
Couple questions:
What runner length were you shooting for?
looks like you choose sch 40 pipe. a bit too heavy for my liking, but did you choose that for a reason?
Are you or the welder going to be able to weld the full circumferance of the joints at the collector? I'm looking at collectors that have a slip joint and you can do some simple stich welds.
Last one, did you double check to be sure the flange is not flipped over?I've seen that happen a couple times. Either the studs don't line up or the port doesn't match the head.

I did some fab and welding myself. Had to make a test pipe for emissions testing.

saabmatt
14th June 2009, 07:51 AM
Looks pretty nice...
Couple questions:
What runner length were you shooting for?
looks like you choose sch 40 pipe. a bit too heavy for my liking, but did you choose that for a reason?
Are you or the welder going to be able to weld the full circumferance of the joints at the collector? I'm looking at collectors that have a slip joint and you can do some simple stich welds.
Last one, did you double check to be sure the flange is not flipped over?I've seen that happen a couple times. Either the studs don't line up or the port doesn't match the head.

I did some fab and welding myself. Had to make a test pipe for emissions testing.


OK Runner length, I was simply trying to make number one as short as possible so that I had a chance of getting number four close to that as possible, I have just checked and it looks like number one is about 15 number two, three, and four are about 16 so Im an inch out which I think is pretty good going as its all been done by eye and I was very careful not to make mistakes, bad cuts not wanting to waste tube/bends due to the cost.

After spending some time just looking at this morning I managed to remove a whole bend from the number three runner which makes two, three and four all use the same number of bends and almost identical lengths of straight tube so they are well matched for length/ volume.

Yes it is sch 40 only as not having done this before it just seams to be the popular choice :roll: with a lot of US fab shops using it. Header/manifold building doesnt seam to be done so much here in the UK but I found a supplier so went with it.

Collector welding will be no problem as they are at a nice angle from each other, I was very conscious of this when putting the collector together.

I was basing this on the photos from the boost factory one but because of the tight collector I was worried the welding shop would complain so I made this one a bit wider and so the runners also ended up changing shape

Turbo flange is fine and from a very reputable exhaust manufacturer here in the UK so I have no worries about that not fitting.

I should have it all done tomorrow then Im going to take it apart and copy all the cuts, bends and lengths so I can make myself one up. :D

Squaab99t
14th June 2009, 03:38 PM
Sounds like a plan. The first one of anything, is always a bit of a mind game. As you build more you can make improvements. As far as flange I was talking about the head flange. The T3 is symetrical, but the head flange is not.

IMO I'd beef up your strongback jig if you are going to loan that to the welder while they do it up.
Glad to see people building some S4!t instead of just bolt ons....

Turbofrenzy
14th June 2009, 05:54 PM
Good work Matt
I've been busy with other things this weekend, AC/DC Paris (a really good concert) and a village fete today (also really good, drunk and ate far too much).
At this rate the manifold will be ready the same time as I want to fit the turbo. I must get myself in gear and organise the exhaust parts and cables to move the battery. Prehaps the a/c bits and window motor.

saabmatt
15th June 2009, 03:47 PM
Sorted, off to the welder tomorrow, its been apart and back together three times, all de-burred and cleaned up with a stainless wire wheel, fits together really well now and there is a nice 15mm ish gap around all the tubes for wrapping (if you feel that keen).

Only change I would make is to lengthen number 4 with a kick up and back down that would make them all very close to equal, but as its only for your old heap :o its not worth it :lol:, and I havent got any more bends :cool:

http://www.terrimoore.co.uk/matt/header17.jpg

http://www.terrimoore.co.uk/matt/header18.jpg

http://www.terrimoore.co.uk/matt/header19.jpg

http://www.terrimoore.co.uk/matt/header20.jpg

ejenner
15th June 2009, 04:10 PM
Those tubes are too big. But it will still work as a manifold. :lol:

ejenner
15th June 2009, 04:14 PM
Also might be a good idea to cut some wide slots in the flange that joins the head between tube 1 & 2 and 3 & 4. For thermal expansion.

saabmatt
15th June 2009, 04:16 PM
Those tubes are too big. But it will still work as a manifold. :lol:

It's the same spec tube as the Boost Factory ones and IJ has just made very good power so.....I don't think so.

ejenner
15th June 2009, 04:28 PM
...and how much of his 'very good power' is down to the manifold?

saabmatt
15th June 2009, 04:58 PM
...and how much of his 'very good power' is down to the manifold?

Good but impossible question to answer, a bit like saying those tubes are too big without the knowing the engine/turbo spec, comparison dyno figures etc etc

I do know that the spec is the choice of a lot of header builders with a lot more background in turbo/header/downpipe building then me....... or you, I would think?


http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f161/weirtech/Fab%20for%20Hondas/DSC00404.jpg

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3610/3380123201_eac5efabb8_b.jpg

Turbofrenzy
15th June 2009, 05:22 PM
Now now girls put those handbags away.

This is all experimental, no-one on here can give the formula to get the best power/driveability out of a 2.0L 16v turbo Saab engine, so i'm doing my own thing (saabmatt has some different idea's, between us we'll get there) and posting it for the rest of you, be it good or bad, I report the results as are, good, bad, whatever. So let's wait and see.
A big disadvantage here (France) is the lack of dynos, if I had lots of money and unlimited dyno time, i'd be up with IJ.
For me the fun is doing it and getting the results, little by little.
There are those who post here more than actually achieving anything themselves.

I've nothing against help and constructive critism, but receive little of either (there are certain exceptions)

PS if anyone gets their hands on clubsport let me know, he should be at least banned from the site for scamming

Turbofrenzy
15th June 2009, 05:27 PM
saabmatt, you must get my manifold as best as possible, cos with the very slight chance that yours will be quicker and/or more driveable than mine, i'll have an excuse (poor manifold construction)

ejenner
15th June 2009, 05:29 PM
The tubes are there to carry the exhaust pulses to the turbine. The tubes don't need to be big. You don't want the exhaust gasses expanding and rolling about after exiting the exhaust valve. It is better to keep them as compressed and powerful as possible. The faster you ram those pulses down those tubes the more force they will carry to the turbine wheel.

When I had a pro build my exhaust manifold I was trying to make him build it out of big tubing but he wouldn't do it. I didn't argue with him but felt like he was making a compromise all the same. That was around 5 years ago now. I'm still yet to fire up the engine but I've learnt a lot about manifolds between now and then and I've realised that a lot of the things he did with this manifold were right.

http://www.red-green.co.uk/web/photos/gallery/images/full/engine_assembly_018.jpg

saabmatt
15th June 2009, 05:36 PM
saabmatt, you must get my manifold as best as possible, cos with the very slight chance that yours will be quicker and/or more driveable than mine, i'll have an excuse (poor manifold construction)

LOL HA HA Didn't see that one coming. :lol:

saabmatt
15th June 2009, 05:54 PM
http://www.red-green.co.uk/web/photos/gallery/images/full/engine_assembly_018.jpg

Doesnt look so different to me what size are they :o an inch? If so youre going to have a step from the head to the header not good, inch and a half then its the same size, between? then not enough to make a point about then.

Stock is 1 by 1 oval which opens up a bit more in the manifold so 1 by 1 round with uninterrupted run and equal length has to be about right, where do you get that's too big from?

Turbofrenzy
15th June 2009, 10:45 PM
LOL HA HA Didn't see that one coming. :lol:

Well i'm pretty sharp after a few beers and glasses of wine.

Guess I better get the gaskets on order then.

I'll go to the metal place in the village and see if he can do me the exhaust bends to make the turbo outlet pipe, later today. Otherwise i'll have to order then from the internet.

As always it'll be difficult to tell which mod makes the most difference cos i'll be changing 2/3 things at the same time.

ejenner
16th June 2009, 03:45 AM
Getting hold of those 3" bends is quite difficult and they always seem to cost a lot. If you find a cheap supplier then that'd be great... let me know! I usually go here: http://www.dynoflow.co.uk/

But there must be a cheaper supplier somewhere selling the same bends for less!

Turbofrenzy
16th June 2009, 05:10 AM
Getting hold of those 3" bends is quite difficult and they always seem to cost a lot. If you find a cheap supplier then that'd be great... let me know! I usually go here: http://www.dynoflow.co.uk/

But there must be a cheaper supplier somewhere selling the same bends for less!

I've looked at the dynoflow website already they have a fair selection.
Also i've found this one that has mild steel aswell http://stores.shop.ebay.co.uk/Tube-Bending-Fabrications__W0QQ_armrsZ1

saabmatt
16th June 2009, 06:56 AM
Guess I better get the gaskets on order then.

I'll go to the metal place in the village and see if he can do me the exhaust bends to make the turbo outlet pipe, later today. Otherwise i'll have to order then from the internet.


1. I can send gaskets if they are cheeper here!?!

2. You may want to wait to mod the down pipe, I remember a few people getting caught out when there was a group buy on headers because the down pipe hit the header runners.

Turbofrenzy
16th June 2009, 10:13 AM
1. I can send gaskets if they are cheeper here!?!

2. You may want to wait to mod the down pipe, I remember a few people getting caught out when there was a group buy on headers because the down pipe hit the header runners.


I'm not sure about the gaskets at the mo cos I need to order a/c bits and the window motor aswell.

I wasn't going to mod the downpipe until i've got the turbo on.

Went to the metal place 30 each for 90 bends in stainless and I recon I need at least 2, he quoted me 200 + to supply the bends and weld them up. Damn expensive!

1 turbo delivered from china for 224 quality
http://www.terrimoore.co.uk/clive/turbofrenzy/t1.jpghttp://www.terrimoore.co.uk/clive/turbofrenzy/t2.jpghttp://www.terrimoore.co.uk/clive/turbofrenzy/t3.jpg


I removed the old small V band housing and fitted the big onehttp://www.terrimoore.co.uk/clive/turbofrenzy/w1.jpg

Big one
http://www.terrimoore.co.uk/clive/turbofrenzy/w2.jpg

Fitted to turbo, there's a bit of work to do cos the actuator doesn't line up, also the housing needs twisting round to the correct position

http://www.terrimoore.co.uk/clive/turbofrenzy/twithbigw.jpg

It should be interesting to see what performance it gives and how long it lasts!

saabmatt
16th June 2009, 10:34 AM
Just got back from Exact Weld, they should start on it next week as he's on his own this week, said all look good and shouldn't pose any problems :cool: cool wait and see how much now :roll:

Turbofrenzy
18th June 2009, 07:46 AM
Does anyone know what needs to be done to run unleaded 95/ E85 on a 900T/16 that's running Megasquirt? It seems to be replacing unleaded 98 here in France and I hear it gives more power and better emissions aswell.

Alex
18th June 2009, 09:56 AM
Are you sure they are replacing 98 with E85 as the two fuels aren't compatible. IE a car which requires full fat unleaded can't just take E85 without extensive modifications. I noticed that when I was in France over the weekend that 95 in some petrol stations is E10.

Car would require new, much larger injectors, new fuel lines and a completely different map. Cars which run bio fuel can sense the fuel type and change map accordingly, otherwise you would have to drive the car until the tank is nearly empty and then fill up and switch maps in the ECU.

TooMany2cvs
18th June 2009, 09:58 AM
Are you sure they are replacing 98 with E85 as the two fuels aren't compatible. IE a car which requires full fat unleaded can't just take E85 without extensive modifications.

If most filling stations are set up for three (liquid) fuels, as they will be, 98 is going to be far and away the slowest selling so therefore the one most likely to be replaced by E85.

Shame - because I'm convinced that French 95 isn't as "strong" as ours - the number of times I've had 2cvs which run happily on British 95 but pink & run on badly on French - I always tend to head straight for the 98 pump over there, but rarely buy it here.

Turbofrenzy
18th June 2009, 03:36 PM
Are you sure they are replacing 98 with E85 as the two fuels aren't compatible. IE a car which requires full fat unleaded can't just take E85 without extensive modifications. I noticed that when I was in France over the weekend that 95 in some petrol stations is E10.

Car would require new, much larger injectors, new fuel lines and a completely different map. Cars which run bio fuel can sense the fuel type and change map accordingly, otherwise you would have to drive the car until the tank is nearly empty and then fill up and switch maps in the ECU.


Sorry it's me getting my numbers mixed up, I got fuel in the garage in question today and it is indeed SP95 E10. Will my car or a normal 900t16 just run on it with no problems? It's 10% ethanol I gather.

Turbofrenzy
18th June 2009, 03:40 PM
If most filling stations are set up for three (liquid) fuels, as they will be, 98 is going to be far and away the slowest selling so therefore the one most likely to be replaced by E85.

Shame - because I'm convinced that French 95 isn't as "strong" as ours - the number of times I've had 2cvs which run happily on British 95 but pink & run on badly on French - I always tend to head straight for the 98 pump over there, but rarely buy it here.

I got my numbers wrong see previous post.
The fuel does vary for sure, I filled up at a different garage the other week and had the knock light coming on every time I booted it, the next time I put in 25 litres at the normal place and no problem since.

TooMany2cvs
18th June 2009, 03:46 PM
Sorry it's me getting my numbers mixed up, I got fuel in the garage in question today and it is indeed SP95 E10. Will my car or a normal 900t16 just run on it with no problems? It's 10% ethanol I gather.

Yeh, E10 would be 10% Ethanol, 90% Dinosaurs.

The standard for "normal" 95 is basically >5% Ethanol, so it's not a big change.

Turbofrenzy
18th June 2009, 03:56 PM
I've got the bends and not too expensive, they're mild steel and a bit thick, but for 7 each for the tight bends and 17 each for the wider one's they'll do. Once the manifolds done we'll be in business.

http://www.terrimoore.co.uk/clive/turbofrenzy/thebends.jpg

This is where the work is being done, it's big enough and cooler than outside 30c today, it reminds me I must order my a/c parts.

http://www.terrimoore.co.uk/clive/turbofrenzy/theworkplace.jpg

Whilst doing stuff with photos I found this one of saabmatts 900 16i that I drove at Cadwell.

http://www.terrimoore.co.uk/clive/turbofrenzy/mattsbanger.jpg

That's me posing in the passenger seat.

Turbofrenzy
18th June 2009, 03:57 PM
Yeh, E10 would be 10% Ethanol, 90% Dinosaurs.

The standard for "normal" 95 is basically >5% Ethanol, so it's not a big change.

Basically, shove it in and see what happens.

TooMany2cvs
18th June 2009, 03:59 PM
Basically, shove it in and see what happens.

*ding*
Let the knock LED & APC sort it out...

saabmatt
18th June 2009, 05:10 PM
one of saabmatts 900 16i



LOL :lol:

Alex
18th June 2009, 06:39 PM
Yeh, E10 would be 10% Ethanol, 90% Dinosaurs.

The standard for "normal" 95 is basically >5% Ethanol, so it's not a big change.

IIRC Tesco 99 is E15 (it certainly has more Ethanol than standard fuels) and Saabs run on that quite happily (though other cars don't like it for some reason). It's also oxygenated so there is a slight power boost from running it, even if the car doesn't have a knock sensor and active maps.

philb
18th June 2009, 08:22 PM
E10 should give a slight octane boost, so you should be able to run a little more ignition advance on boost. If you do not have EGO currently enabled, ie, not running closed loop, then the AFR might lean out a bit on E10, so you might want to richen it slightly ( slight tweak of req_fuel should be enough ).

Turbofrenzy
19th June 2009, 02:42 AM
E10 should give a slight octane boost, so you should be able to run a little more ignition advance on boost. If you do not have EGO currently enabled, ie, not running closed loop, then the AFR might lean out a bit on E10, so you might want to richen it slightly ( slight tweak of req_fuel should be enough ).

Ok, so I can just put some in the tank and keep an eye on the AFR, adjust the fueling if required, thanks.
When it becomes more widely available, I can advance the timing and use it all the time.

Last night I ordered all the parts that needed ordereing to repair the a/c, fit the manifold and get the drivers window working properly.
Some of the parts are actually cheap here in France eg a/c condenser and coolant hoses, most unexpected. The rest is coming from the UK as normal.

ejenner
19th June 2009, 03:41 AM
hur... had no idea about E85 on Sweden trip back in 2006. Filled up the 99 with E85 at one of their deserted petrol stations. I was with PhilB and Matthew. I seem to remember it started ok after filling up but then ran like turd. So I turned up the RRFPR all the way to something like 5-bar and that gave me some driveability while I was running out the tank. The engine was slow to get up to speed but when the turbo kicked in it went like a rocket! Was amazing!

philb
19th June 2009, 04:29 AM
If petrol keeps going up I might be back to e85 myself. Works very well ejenner when you map the car for it. On a stock engine I was able to run 20 degrees timing at the same boost level, lots more power.

ejenner
20th June 2009, 08:15 AM
This is very true. It is a better fuel. But... people are complaining that growing crops to produce E85 (well actually E100) is a waste of the land we have and it could cause people to starve from using too much land for growing fuel and not enough land for growing food. I have a feeling that might be nonsense though... there always seem to be so many good reasons for sticking with petrol!

Edit: they also only stock it in one petrol station as well. At Morrisons supermarkets. Unless that's changed? It takes me 1/2 an hour to get to any Morrisions supermarkets when my nearest normal Esso petrol station is about 1 minutes drive. I know in other countries like Ireland, France, Belguim, Holland, Germany, Denmark, Sweden, ect, ect... you can get E85 at any petrol station.... but in this country they don't seem to want us to use it!

Turbofrenzy
20th June 2009, 09:04 AM
This is very true. It is a better fuel. But... people are complaining that growing crops to produce E85 (well actually E100) is a waste of the land we have and it could cause people to starve from using too much land for growing fuel and not enough land for growing food. I have a feeling that might be nonsense though... there always seem to be so many good reasons for sticking with petrol!

Edit: they also only stock it in one petrol station as well. At Morrisons supermarkets. Unless that's changed? It takes me 1/2 an hour to get to any Morrisions supermarkets when my nearest normal Esso petrol station is about 1 minutes drive. I know in other countries like Ireland, France, Belguim, Holland, Germany, Denmark, Sweden, ect, ect... you can get E85 at any petrol station.... but in this country they don't seem to want us to use it!


Down this end of the country all i've seen is SP95 E10, i've not seen E85 at all.

Alex
20th June 2009, 10:59 AM
This is very true. It is a better fuel. But... people are complaining that growing crops to produce E85 (well actually E100) is a waste of the land we have and it could cause people to starve from using too much land for growing fuel and not enough land for growing food. I have a feeling that might be nonsense though... there always seem to be so many good reasons for sticking with petrol!

That is actually correct. Currently bio fuel is produced from unused portions of crops grown for animal feed so is in essence free. It is also an inefficient process as large amounts of crop are needed to create a small amount of fuel.

To grow sufficient amount of crop of produce enough fuel to be useful would take enormous amounts of land, which would otherwise be used for food crops of animals. The fuel crop is useless for anything else as sufficient animal feed is already produced.

Turbofrenzy
22nd June 2009, 03:08 AM
That is actually correct. Currently bio fuel is produced from unused portions of crops grown for animal feed so is in essence free. It is also an inefficient process as large amounts of crop are needed to create a small amount of fuel.

To grow sufficient amount of crop of produce enough fuel to be useful would take enormous amounts of land, which would otherwise be used for food crops of animals. The fuel crop is useless for anything else as sufficient animal feed is already produced.

Chemistry not being my strongest subject, but aren't lots of dead beings, trees, animals etc required to make crude oil, then in relative terms lots of crude oil used to make petrol. Without the thousands/millions of years time factor.

Turbofrenzy
1st July 2009, 03:50 PM
Last Monday I ordered half my required parts fron PFS, the other half here in France, in fact about 4 hours round trip from here.
So why did the parts from PFS turn up Thursday last, yet the French bits still haven't arrived.

Turbofrenzy
23rd July 2009, 03:36 PM
Last Monday I ordered half my required parts fron PFS, the other half here in France, in fact about 4 hours round trip from here.
So why did the parts from PFS turn up Thursday last, yet the French bits still haven't arrived.

French parts still haven't arrived 3 weeks further on! I've phoned several times to be told there are big delays in delivery from the manufacturer, great when they debited my credit card the day after I placed the order. At this rate i'll not get my a/c working until the winter.

Turbofrenzy
23rd July 2009, 04:17 PM
Due to a very heavy seasonal workload and my son being here for the last 3 weeks progress has been very slow, but the battery is now in the boot.

http://www.terrimoore.co.uk/clive/turbofrenzy/inplace.jpg


Its a 17.5cm high readily available of the shelf battery from Feu Vert (a bit like Halfords) fitted with the Saab earth lead and 50mm2 battery cable inside some conduit.

http://www.terrimoore.co.uk/clive/turbofrenzy/battcable.jpg


The lid shuts down ok with no real mods, just tapping down 1 raised rib on the boot floor.

http://www.terrimoore.co.uk/clive/turbofrenzy/itshuts.jpg


Whilst there I removed 2 of the old amps, leaving the Kenwood sub amp (on the right)

http://www.terrimoore.co.uk/clive/turbofrenzy/oldamps.jpg

The Clarion had stopped working on 1 channel, the other was a bit cheapo.
These have been replaced by these 2.

http://www.terrimoore.co.uk/clive/turbofrenzy/newamps.jpg


The head unit has been changed for an Alpine unit also, 6 RCA, remote and USB and without any adjustments it sounds better.

http://www.terrimoore.co.uk/clive/turbofrenzy/headunit.jpg


And yes they were excellent in concert at Paris 12 June, "Rock lives"

There is however some alternator noise at low volume that needs sorting and a better method of joining the battery cable under the bonnet, but nothing pressing.
Idle is still c**p, no a/c and other minor probs but "on verra"

Turbofrenzy
23rd July 2009, 05:18 PM
I did try and mount them (amps) as saabmatt did (in the rear 1/4 panels) but ran out of time so they're screwed to the back seat at the moment.

The boost pressure has gone over 2 bar for some reason, it started to blow vacuum hoses off, but i've cable tied them on. The old heap is seriously fast though!

I've a suspension knock that's arrived from nowhere, I think its a tightening up job!

The handbrake has alot more slack than before, so that needs looking at!

Air con waiting for parts.

Turbo waiting for manifold.

Me waiting for enough time off to do the work when the parts arrive.

saabmatt
23rd July 2009, 06:28 PM
Will chase them up again on the manifold next week, nice wiring on the back seat by the way, yee har :lol:

Turbofrenzy
24th July 2009, 03:21 AM
Will chase them up again on the manifold next week, nice wiring on the back seat by the way, yee har :lol:

There's no real hurry, it won't be ready/here next week when i've 3 consecutive days off, so i'll aim to do it towards the end of August (the next time i've 3 days off)

Most of the wiring is hidden when the seat back is up ;)
Maybe next week I can look at the handbrake, remount the amps in the rear 1/4 panels and tighten the suspension. I really need to progress with the fine tuning of MS but its so hot its difficult to get motivated, far easier to sit down with a cold beer :nono;

motomartin
27th July 2009, 12:42 AM
Last Monday I ordered half my required parts fron PFS, the other half here in France, in fact about 4 hours round trip from here.
So why did the parts from PFS turn up Thursday last, yet the French bits still haven't arrived.


....cos they're FRENCH !