saab 16s [Archive] - SaabCentral Forums

: saab 16s

kev P
13th January 2008, 05:28 PM
hello there to all you saab owners, this is my little project car any advice on turbo size? engine management would be very useful. :lol:

all work has an will be under taken by my self, close friends and me old man.


Please feel free to comment and ask any questions. The last picture is when I first bought the car it is now having a lot of work done to it!

Kev P

kev P
13th January 2008, 05:29 PM

My car on the dyno

18th January 2008, 05:04 AM
Liking the look of this project. What sort of output are you aiming for? What will the car be used for when it's finished?

Turbo size depends on what you want to use the car for...?

Mine is a Mitsu TE05-12b which is the turbo fitted to the Carlsson, some late T16's and the LPT models. The TE05 running high boost gives vicious spool-up but the small turbine housing chokes the exhaust and it's all over by about 4 thousand rpm. The advantages of the TE05 is that they're easy to get secondhand and they're very robust. My car is making 220bhp and 247 lb/ft of torque with this turbo but on the track even though that seems ok on paper the way the power and torque are produced causes it to be uncompetitive v.s. popular track-day cars from other manafactures. I am looking to get a turbo that produces it's power high in the rev range. I want peak output somewhere around 5500 rpm. On the track you're rarely in a position to use a power-band between 1k & 4k. Most of the time the engine is reving above 3k so the small turbo is a bit useless. As a cost-effective replacement I'm looking for a Garrett T3/T4 hybrid with a .63 turbine housing. I'm dismissing anything that claims to provide early spool-up or appears to be restrictive on the exhaust side. Space for exhaust to pass through the TE05 is about the size of a brussle-sprout. That's a seriously restrictive exhaust for a 2.0 16v revving at 6k...! You could argue that a bigger exhaust opening would allow more gas to pass the turbine without contributing to its movement but that's only going to hurt low-down performance. Out on the track it will be perfect!

You've got 5 options for engine management:

(in no particular order)

1. Keep what you have, keep the dissy, use the standard fuel system. Maybe play with the vac-advance/retard capsule, plug-gap, plug-type, static-timing setting, fit a 5th injector activated by boost pressure (use a fuel-cut-off switch and reverse it so the circuit completes when pressure reaches a particular level. Set the pressure by turning the screw on the back of the switch and use a bicycle pump with a gauge to set the pressure for activation of the 5th injector) - Maybe fit a rising-rate fuel pressure regulator to increase fuel-pressure as boost rises. Lots of fiddling required but people sucessfully run this way. I've seen it!

2. Your car is probably running a Lucas fuel-computer... change that and the sensors for Bosch LH 2.2. Not a massive task. Can use the existing loom but will have to re-wire connectors so they go to the correct pins for the different sensors. Then use the LH editor software and a chip-burner to create yourself a new fuel EPROM. Or buy a replacement fuel chip from Jak Stoll in the USA. You tell him your config and he will make an aproximate fuel-map for your setup. There aren't as many options for tuning Lucas ECU's although I do vaguely remember someone mentioning it! Keep original dissy ignition system.

3. As above but combine with DI/APC system from Saab 9000 1989 to 1993? (ish) The later 9000's had the more advanced Trionic system but there are no non-commercial tuning methods available to UK enthusiasts so mapping is still expensive.. for Trionic mapping you must go to the likes of Maptun, Nordic, BSR, Abbott-racing and pay to follow their upgrade path (Stage1, stage2, stage3, ect, ect...) Trionic can be mapped and it is a good system but I've only seen mapping done by clever Sweeds and commercial organisations in this country. By contrast the DI/APC system is cheap or free to get hold of from an old 9000 scrapper. You need to fit the crank-sensor before you install the engine or else it is grief for you due to the location of the crank-pulley on the c900. The DI/APC provides boost control and ignition control in a single control unit. It can talk to the Bosch LH2.2 fuel system and ask for a fuel increase on boost. It can detect engine knock and pull-back boost to save your engine if your making too much knock. The dissy is removed and a plug is installed to block the hole. The coil is removed and that is replaced by 4-individual coils housed in a cassette and mounted to the top of the spark-plugs. The spark is much stronger than that of a single-coil and dissy setup so you can keep a big plug-gap for good drivability without loosing boost from blown-out sparks. You can buy a chip from a company in America that tunes the box for more boost. The advantages of this are cost, availabilty of spares, reliability of the system and not too shabby performance. The disadvantage is a fixed configuration. If you modify parts of your setup you don't have the ability to take out the laptop and re-configure the ECU to best optimise every part of the rev-range. This is probably the best you can do without going for a full stand-alone system.

4. Megasquirt - this is very popular on this forum. Done lots of times although something I'm yet to get involved with... maybe one-day...! ;) Megasquirt can be bought as a pre-built ECU or you can buy the board and components and solder it up yourself. Even though the costs seem to have gone up a bit over the last couple of years the system is still the cheapest way to get to a full stand-alone ECU setup. You can use with standard sensors pinched from other production cars, most of the standard Saab sensors can be re-used. Disadvantages of Megasquirt are that you really have to build your own EFI... Once you're familar with Megasquirt it's easy to claim that anyone can do it and that it's easy... but when I briefly considered getting involved and tried to reasearch to find the best version and accessories to buy I found the people on the Megasquirt forum to be very unhelpful. I often read about the issues people have to overcome to get Megasquirt running smoothly. You have to really dedicate yourself to the task. You need a laptop for programming the ECU. I've not seen any projects where Megasquirt was fully configured for fuel, boost and ignition on the same day or even on the same weekend. It's a big project in itself. I imagine it's the sort of thing you could become an 'expert' at... I'm 100-percent convinced I could do it but my lazyness gets the better of me and I've just stuck with solid, easy, cheaper and most reliable DI/APC from the 9000 and Bosch LH 2.2 to manage fuel. Any potential performance increase isn't worth the effort for me at this stage. In the future I can go to Megasquirt but there's many other things to do first.

5. Get a totally stand-alone system off the shelf. It's about 400 for the most basic up to about 3500 for a Motec. They're easy to install, come with support from the manafacturer and accessories to expand the usefullness of the controller - for example, the Motec in particular will allow your pit-team to monitor the cars systems from the pits using telemetry. Other systems can get you stats using GPS technology to plot your route and show your speeds and compare them with your throttle and rpm graphs...

18th January 2008, 05:14 AM
As a cost-effective replacement I'm looking for a Garrett T3/T4 hybrid with a .63 turbine housing.

So where are you getting this turbo from?

18th January 2008, 06:11 AM
Most likely via ebay. They're popular on the likes of Serria Cosworths. I'm also wondering about the TD04 from the Saab 9000 Aero... but that might be a case of good-headline figure but still produced in the wrong part of the performance curve to be any good for track use. i.e. in the middle instead of at the top. It's a racing turbo v.s. street turbo issue. Most of the turbo specialists I've spoken to assume I'll be wanting power at low RPM as that's what everyone thinks makes a good turbocharging system... notice how this is always a benefit when a journlist is discussing the pro's and con's of a new turbocharged car they are reviewing.

kev P
26th January 2008, 07:06 AM
sorry for the long delay, been very busy with work.........god i hate being on call. thanks for the advice on management, i have spent a shed load of money on just the engine alone, everything has been replaced an up rated, local engineer shop love it when i walk in cos the amount of money i gotta pay them lol. well the car its self im not asking much from at all, want to keep it to about 300bhp an im very sure this is not a problem, the head re work has put the flow rate very high, over sise exhaust valves etc valve throats opened up beyond belief. all up rated bottom end, an good old mother is off to the states in a week to see family an collecting a nice alloy flywheel for me:cheesy:. as for the turbo sise im going to prob go down the road of getting one made an matched to the engine as the amount of money i have spent so far, and the amount of man hours i have put im making an building and caculating this engine it could all be a waist of time with a poor guess for a turbo, it going external waste gate an turbo in a different possition so it can be clocked to keep pipeing nice an free flowing. is it really possiable to get off the shelf stand alone management kits?? where would i ring up to discuss, all electronic stuff i leave to a friend of mine who build pcb's for a living an re maps his crx chips him self. im just good at collecting infomation an with the help of my dad an a very well kitted workshop building an fabricating. ps sorry for the spelling hope you can all make sense of it, english is not my strong point. if any one wants any more pictures putting up just let me know.

kev P
26th January 2008, 07:14 AM
its not a daily driver an does get kept off the road through winters, use to work in a body shop so all paint work is done by myself to, i hate what road salt does to my cars!!! all timing gear is new, new rings on standard pistons with a slight hone of the block just for a de glase. using a ap racing paddle cluch, an a rebuilt long it will last is anyones guess. an of corse it will have a proper ducted front mount cooler an custom full 3" exhaust.