The next stage.....TD - 04 turbo. (Update) [Archive] - SaabCentral Forums

: The next stage.....TD - 04 turbo. (Update)


tandino
15th May 2003, 03:22 PM
As many of you know im running into problems in the quest for more power and i feel im right at the limit of what my trusty T3 can deliver.
I know there has been talk of fitting the TD - 04 onto a C900 over on the TSN performance forum but it seems nobody has actually got round to fitting one.
Im reluctant to pay out extreme amounts of money for a hybrid T3 as it seems the TD - 04 has high enough cfm's to deliver serious power levels that im after - witness BillJ and AlanB's cars - both around or over the 300bhp mark....
I know obviously im going to have to get an adapter plate made up for the turbo to bolt up to the manifold, im also thinking of using Aeroquip lines for the oil feed, does anyone know any other problems i might run into when doing this conversion :-?? :-?? - water piping etc :-?? ,
Also how will the TD - 04 compare to the T3 in terms of spool up :-?? - im hoping for a slightly less agressive build up of boost than the T3 to try to save my (presently stock with the possiblilty of an Ericsson upgrade in the near future) transmission from grenading again :! .
Any ideas, pics etc would be welcome.

cheers Pete.

john-w
15th May 2003, 03:48 PM
God help us!!

tandino
15th May 2003, 04:01 PM
Your quite safe John - your car only has a piddly little 8v and no amount of fancy bits will help you tred on my toes :cheesy:

Your gearbox may last longer however.............

Pete.

P.S - why do you need all that power to pop down the road to the pie shop John :-?? :cheesy:

jeronimo
15th May 2003, 05:49 PM
Dont suppose I can help much Tandino. Aint it the pioneers who are meant to discover everything :-?? :-??

Have you considered a turbo from a 9000. I thought they were similar to the 900 one but with a bigger compressor wheel.

Hopefully thats not all rubbish :o

Alex
15th May 2003, 05:49 PM
From memory all the connections on the TD-04 are banjo style, so would easy to connect aeroquip hosing to. Only other thought would be, can the compressor housing be rotated so that the piping will have an easy route to the intercooler.

Widde
15th May 2003, 05:57 PM
Well there are several td04 og900 monsters running here in sweden. And they are chewing gearboxes :o

The largest trouble is to make the turbo fit the stock exhaust manifold.

but check this out..
http://forum.saabturboclub.com/phpbb1/viewtopic.php?t=2292
its in swedish but look at the pictures

here's the blueprint of the adapter plate
http://medlem.spray.se/aero900/upp/ML-platta.jpg

It's no larger trouble fitting it, little machining of the exh-manifold, building the plate, rebuilding the oil and water lines to and from the turbo.

here are pictures of modded manifold to fit a TD04HL-15T #6

http://194.236.61.194/_upload/Modd%20grenr%f6r_02.JPG

http://194.236.61.194/_upload/Modd%20grenr%f6r_01.JPG

http://194.236.61.194/_upload/Modd%20grenr%f6r_03.JPG

brad
15th May 2003, 06:09 PM
What if, you made a spacer plate tp mount on the exhausrside of the head. Mount a 9000 exhaust manifold upside down on that and plumbed every thing.
Brad

Carl Hernandez
15th May 2003, 07:52 PM
while it would bo cool just to use a 9k manifold upsidedown and have the turbo setup like a supra there might be problems with the matching of the manifold to the head.
mebey it fits mebey it doesnt.
if you did this i think that you would have to look into some hood modifications as well due to the turbo being closer.
iu suppose that it would sound incredibly cool due to its elevated position but hey, i suppose that if you managed to fit the turbo it would be mad fast.
just my 2 cents, i could be wrong.

saab16valve
15th May 2003, 08:52 PM
Tandino, why not do more internal work to the motor? I.E lowering the compression of the motor then applying more boost. I was thinking of going with J.E forged low compression pistons and doing a total bottom end rebuild. Maybe that is more then you want to do. Putting a Td-04 turbo on would be SICK though :cheesy:

Carl Hernandez
15th May 2003, 09:04 PM
yeah one of the TTE (turbo team europe) members put the old pre apc pistons in his engine.
the pistons gave him a significantly lower CR (7.2 iirc) and apparently the boost sailed into the red on an unmodded apc due to the low compression not inducing knock.
although i do have to agree with saab16valve that you would have one sick 900 turbo.

Eric van Spelde
16th May 2003, 03:55 AM
The adaptor plate looks like one used to bolt the V*lv* TD04HK1x with 7 cm2 exhaust housing. All you need to do to bolt a TD04HL6cm2 from a 9000 Aero to a c900T16 manifold IIRC is change the bolt holes. Then, of course, come the oil/coolant supply and return plumbing - if you have to purchase a 9000 Aero turbo, have the exhaust manifold drilled professionally buy the proper fittings for the plumbing and have something made up to ensure a reliable seal for the oil returnline into the block (you don't want to skimp here...) you might be close to wehat you'd pay for a bolt-on TO3 upgrade. And then you'd still have a second hand turbo. After calculating it through I decided it was not worth the hassle - Sweedspeed had my present T03 rebuilt and converted into a tailormade hybrid (I wanted spoolup as stock, but with extended high-rpm airflow capability, something they achieved with changing the angle of the compressor wheel blades, amongst others) including 360 degree thrust bearing, for 540 euro (330ish quid?)

If you have a TD04 laying around, or can get one cheap from a mate, however... :)

tandino
16th May 2003, 05:20 AM
Thanks for the adapter pics Widde - ive got a really good machine shop 5 mins down the road from me so i can print the pics off and get them to make up the plate.
Im going to see what the TD - 04's are going for at Steam and Spares - if its crazy money then i will get a hybrid - my thinking is around 100 for a secondhand TD - 04 :-?? - any more and ill have to think again.........
As for doing internal work - i may at a later stage but for now the turbo is definately holding up preceedings :! ,
Im also hopefully going to get an Ericsson box in the near future as im building a little project for someone and this is in return for the work im going to be putting in - lets just say its going to be a bit special - my lips are however sealed at present :cheesy:

Pete.

tandino
18th May 2003, 12:54 PM
Well as any of you who attended Steam & Spares will know the chances of me finding a TD-04 were about as slim as a Rizla paper :evil: .
Im still looking..........

Pete.

Alanb
18th May 2003, 06:45 PM
Pete,

I couldn't even find a 9000 CS rear light there or engine mount so fat chance of finding a TD04!

Alanb

tandino
22nd July 2003, 08:54 AM
Well TD-04 here we come :! :! ,
I have managed to source a secondhand TD-04 for a very good price - depending upon condition i will budget for a rebuild kit if needs be,
I am going ot take my T16 off the road for a couple of weeks next week as im swapping the engine over and have a few jobs such as new windscreen,tyres, balljoints and trackrod ends before she goes in for an MOT,
This will enable me to work on the turbo-manifold adaption with the engine out of the car to make things alot easier.
I dont see any other reason why i shouldnt be able to push power upto around the 300bhp mark after the TD-04 is fitted - everything else is in place.
Whilst everythings out im going to try to fab up a 3" downpipe with the appropriate mating flange for the TD-04,
Watch this space people :cheesy: ...............

Pete.

Ragnar
22nd July 2003, 09:11 AM
Some pic's from my installation:

http://www.mtek.chalmers.se/~burenius/020512_01.jpg
http://www.mtek.chalmers.se/~burenius/020512_02.jpg
http://www.mtek.chalmers.se/~burenius/020723_01.jpg
http://www.mtek.chalmers.se/~burenius/020723_02.jpg
http://www.mtek.chalmers.se/~burenius/020723_03.jpg
http://www.mtek.chalmers.se/~burenius/020731_02.jpg
http://www.mtek.chalmers.se/~burenius/030111_03.jpg

It's in a 99, but it really is no difference. Only you got a little more space :)

Good luck!

/Ragnar

tandino
22nd July 2003, 09:26 AM
Great pics Ragnar :! - as you say space is at a premium in your instalation - something which shouldn't be as much of a problem in the C900,
Is your 99t up and running :-?? ,
Interested to hear how the B202 runs with the TD-04 - spool up especially with the adapter plate in place etc,
Have you had your car on a dyno - be interested to see how the TD-04 holds power at higher rpm's than the T3 - this is where im hoping to build on my power curve as the T3 runs out of puff at 5k rpm in my application.
Many thanks for the pics :cheesy:

Pete.

Ragnar
22nd July 2003, 09:52 AM
tandino> Just so you know, my turbo is a MHI TD04HL-15T-7. In my specific case a hybrid between the unit from a 9-5 Aero and a Volvo 850T. The turbine housing comes from the Volvo, everything else from the 9-5. This way I get a housing with the larger bolt pattern of the old T3 units and avoid the really high exhaust temp's. I also get more spool-up, which is an disadvantage performance wise but gives the gearbox a little more hope of a somewhat longer life :)
My car is running and the turbo gets going really good at about 3000rpm. The boost doesn't come with a great punch though, it's more av nice smooth push that starts in the 2000-something rev's and goes on to at least 5000rpm. A bit hard to tell since I'm right in the middle of adjusting everything. Currently have a problem with knocking during full load at 4000+. In that region lambda is dropping from my normal WOT-setup of ~0.75-0.85 to about 1.0. Currently waiting on delivery of my larger injectors, hopefully I'll then be able to solve this situation.

When running with another APC-unit (less knock sensitive) the boost was about 1,3-1,4 bar all the way up and this really felt like quite much power. My goal is to reach this, but with greater security towards knocking.

Cheers,
/Ragnar

Alex
22nd July 2003, 12:30 PM
Does this imply that a turbo from a Volvo 850T would fit straight onto the Saab exhaust flange?

Ragnar
22nd July 2003, 02:08 PM
Does this imply that a turbo from a Volvo 850T would fit straight onto the Saab exhaust flange?

Sorta'. You need to solve the problem with the volvos labyrinth-gasket. I made the small metall ring shown in pic 1 and 2 above. Works fine.

/Ragnar

Ragnar
22nd July 2003, 02:10 PM
But maybe you're talking about the flange on the exhaust system and not the exhaust manifold? In that case, no the volvo housing isn't a bolt-on sollution.

/Ragnar

Alex
23rd July 2003, 07:08 AM
I was meaning the flange between the manifold and the turbo. It does look neater than some of the adaptors used where extra bolt holes are cut into the manifold flange.

Alanb
23rd July 2003, 04:59 PM
Pete,

On my 2.3 Aero the spool up is terrific with full boost from around 1900-200rpm. I can't see why it would be significantly different for you. It runs to 20+psi as BillJ and I have shown. It really is a great turbo.

I do, however, feel that now is the time to fit a JT 3" d/p to keep the EGT down.

Alanb

Alex
23rd July 2003, 05:19 PM
Remember though Alan, you have an extra 15% engine capacity, a more sensible exhaust manifold, higher compression ratio and vastly better ignition and fuelling control.

tandino
4th August 2003, 02:37 PM
Here's a couple of pics of the little baby just to wet your appetite :cheesy: ,
All iive got to do is port match the manifold to the turbine housing and get the manifold (i have a spare off the car) re-drilled to accept the new stud spacing that the 9000 housing has.
Braided lines are going to be made hopefully this weekend by my neioghbour who sold me the Wilwood calipers - just happened to mention them and he said he'd do them for me :D ,
Order new Banjo fitting from Saab for the two water connections and one feed fitting for the oil line (supply).
Hopefully ill have it all together in the next couple of weeks.
Just got to get the JT downpipe next :!

Pete

Carl Hernandez
4th August 2003, 02:51 PM
yum.

tevid
4th August 2003, 03:47 PM
so when are you putting that into my car ? :cheesy:

Ragnar
5th August 2003, 03:23 AM
tandino> The TD04HL-15T-6 you've got is a nice unit which will be a good fit to your car. My turbo has a somewhat bigger turbine housing which of course increase spool-up etc.

tandino
5th August 2003, 04:36 PM
Widde/Ragnar

Im having trouble trying to get photo's of the manifold for the Td-04 15T-6 to fit onto,
Any ideas where i can find pics??
The following link Widde that you posted i cant open:-

http://194.236.61.194/_upload/Modd%20grenr%f6r_02.JPG

http://194.236.61.194/_upload/Modd%20grenr%f6r_01.JPG

http://194.236.61.194/_upload/Modd%20grenr%f6r_03.JPG

All page not found - do you know who the source of the photo's is??

Regards Pete.

Widde
5th August 2003, 05:06 PM
yup, they are gone (noting the obvious)

I'll check around

Nuts
5th August 2003, 05:20 PM
Pete I've still got that diagram I printed out - that any good to you :-??

Or was that of the downpipe elbow :-?? I can't remember/have my 900 here to measure :-?

tandino
5th August 2003, 05:24 PM
Sam ,
That blueprint is for the adapter plate for the Td04-18t iirc - its for the Volvo 850 unit so its a completely different manifold flange.....

Pete.

Nuts
6th August 2003, 04:47 AM
Ahh, had a feeling it wasn't the right one - That'll be why then :!

leadfoot
6th August 2003, 09:58 AM
sorry if this is a bit off topic but what is the difference performance wise, (spool up etc.) between the td-04 18t, td-04 15t-6, td-04HL 15t-06.

tandino
6th August 2003, 10:28 AM
Its the size of the exhaust/turbine housing port,
The 15t-6 is a Saab application from the 9k Aero as im using,
The 18t is a Volvo 850R application and this has much larger ports from the manifold - turbo and from the turbo - downpipe - the port is round as opposed to the Saab application where the port from the manifold - turbo is square.
The 18 t is supposedly slightly more effiecient at high rpm due to the larger housing but this is sacrificed by slower spool up.

Pete.

leadfoot
6th August 2003, 10:33 AM
ok, thanks for clearing that up pete.

so if I wanted fast spool up and lots of power then the 15t-6 would be the one to go for, then a new gearbox :oops:

tandino
6th August 2003, 10:58 AM
Ill let you know :!

Pete.

tandino
6th August 2003, 11:50 AM
Just ordered my JT 3" downpipe too :cheesy: ,
Im thinking of doing a side exit ovalised slash cut exhaust possibly with just a resonator in the actual tailpipe to bring down noise levels,
These were similar to the old touring car Sierra RS 500 Cosworths,
This would enable me to go for 3" all the way through for relatively little cost.
Opinions please............

Alex
6th August 2003, 12:07 PM
The 15t / 18t is the designation for the size of the compressor, and the 't' signifies that it has single height compressor blades. There is also a range with 'g' designation ie 16G (used in the TD-05) and 20G (TD-06). These have a more modern dual height compressor design.

The 5 (9-5 Aero) , 6 (9000 Aero) , 7 (Volvo) and there is also an 8 is the area of the exhaust nozzle. The larger the value the more the turbine can flow without choking (helping to to produce high end power) but the higher the boost threshold becomes.

tandino
6th August 2003, 12:13 PM
You have clearly been reading to much info. on the net again Alex instead of doing any work :nono; ,
Time for me to speak to your boss :D

Pete.

P.S at least i was partially correct in there applicatons and i do think im right in saying that the port size is much larger on the 18t than the 15t :-??

Nuts
6th August 2003, 12:35 PM
Im thinking of doing a side exit ovalised slash cut exhaust possibly with just a resonator in the actual tailpipe to bring down noise levels,
These were similar to the old touring car Sierra RS 500 Cosworths,

Sounds cool, I like the sound of that :! 8) Where were you thinking of having the exit :-?? Behind the RHS front wheel or in front of RHS rear wheel :-??

I thought you wanted your car to be a bit of a sleeper though :-?? :lol:

tandino
6th August 2003, 12:44 PM
Ill have it exitting in front of the offside rear wheel,

Also you are correct int that i want it to be a bit of a sleeper and thats why i dont really want the JT 3" pipe sticking out the rear - i think a side exit is far less 'noticeable' as people dont commonly look there for an exhaust pipe.
It will be done in a subtle way so as not o atract too much attention....

Pete.

john-w
6th August 2003, 12:57 PM
Ill have it exitting in front of the offside rear wheel,

Also you are correct int that i want it to be a bit of a sleeper and thats why i dont really want the JT 3" pipe sticking out the rear - i think a side exit is far less 'noticeable' as people dont commonly look there for an exhaust pipe.
It will be done in a subtle way so as not o atract too much attention....

Pete.

Reduce the pipe down to about an inch where it exits and nobody will ever notice :wink: :wink: :wink: :wink:

Alanb
6th August 2003, 02:51 PM
Can't you just let it exit under the car, downwards, at about the spare wheel well or would this cause too much noise?

tevid
6th August 2003, 03:07 PM
don't think it would as it already passed the muffler/silencer, but then you have that big cutout in your bumper for the exhaust so it'd look a bit stupid in my opinion

SteveS
7th August 2003, 03:02 PM
why not go for a carlsson style twin tail pipe setup? slightly larger diameter of course so instead of having one huge pipe have two slighlty smaller pipes at the rear.

tandino
7th August 2003, 03:34 PM
Steve - ive alreadt got twin Carlsson style pipes at the rear - you obviously werent paying attention at Power Engineering :! :D

Pete.

tandino
10th August 2003, 05:22 PM
Well today i finished machining the manifold to fit the bolt pattern of the TD04 housing -took some time with the drememl i can tell you :o but go there in the end :o .
Im now waiting on a new turbo to manifold gasket and new banjo bolts for the water feed and return and the oil feed.
Once i have these i will start work on the braided oil supply line,
Out of interest Ragnar did you buy the braided lines ready made or did you make them yourself :-?? - if you made them yourself what fittings did you use :-?? .
Im currently waiting for my JT 3" downpipe - this should be here on Tuesday with a bit of luck :D - im then thinking about what to do with the rest of the exhaust - im either going to do a side exit or get the rest made up in stainless in 3" all the way through.
Watch this space - more updates coming :D

Pete.

tevid
10th August 2003, 05:24 PM
if you decide to get rid of your twin carlsson pipes i'd be interested in them :cheesy:

Alex
10th August 2003, 05:26 PM
Have you found a place that can do proper mandrel bent 3" stainless pipe. Neither Longlife or Powerflow are too keen on using 3" and don't mandrel bend the pipes anyway.

Hayward and Scott would be able to do a system but would likely to be s.

tandino
10th August 2003, 06:59 PM
There used to be a place in Woking that specialised in stainless exhausts for Audi's - primarily the Ur-quattro,
Ill have to find there no.
Otherwise ill keep looking :o

Pete.

johniemi
11th August 2003, 12:52 PM
Just a simple question to all you turbo freaks... What do I need to make a T3/T4 hybrid?

I know of one guy who is selling a Garret T04 turbo, but I don't know which car it is taken from. Can I just buy ANY T04 garret and bolt it up to a T03 and I have a hybrid turbo?

Fast replies please... I know he won't have the T04 for sale long...

-John

tandino
11th August 2003, 01:19 PM
From what i can gather you use the turbine side of the T3 and the compressor side of the T4......
Im sure others will comment

Pete.

Oil_Eater
11th August 2003, 06:48 PM
johniemi
The turbo rebuild kit I bought from SD was listed on the site as a T3.

When I was reading the directions, it says "T3 and T3/T4"
There is only one compressor gasket, so I would imagine the compressor would bolt to the center section via the same 4 bolts. The gasket goes between the compressor volute and the parralel wall difuser, so that doesn't pinpoint what you want to know, but I get a good feeling about the build.

Alex
12th August 2003, 03:52 AM
Do you know what car the T4 came off, or the full designation for the T4?

The range of T4 compressors seem to run from ones not much larger than the T3 and interchangeable with them to considerably larger units that will require their compressor housing to be attached to the T3 core.

johniemi
12th August 2003, 04:06 AM
Do you know what car the T4 came off, or the full designation for the T4?

The range of T4 compressors seem to run from ones not much larger than the T3 and interchangeable with them to considerably larger units that will require their compressor housing to be attached to the T3 core.

Nope... And furthermore, as I live in a small town in one of the smallest (population wise) counties in my country, all the second-hand turbos and other interesting car parts are being sold 200-400 kilometers from my town. So I guess I'll just have to take my car to a local turbo shop (gee, at least we have one of those) and have them make a hybrid for me... Will cost more but I will save time and gas. :(

-John

Ragnar
12th August 2003, 08:57 AM
Out of interest Ragnar did you buy the braided lines ready made or did you make them yourself :-?? - if you made them yourself what fittings did you use :-??

A local shop made them for me. Just brought the fittings for the turbo and the block and told them the length I wanted.

/Ragnar

tandino
12th August 2003, 02:36 PM
Today i got my JT 3" downpipe :cheesy: ,
I also got the oil feed line made up in braided stainless :cheesy: ,
I also got 2 banjo fittings to enable me to mate the water connections upto the centre housing,
All im waiting for is 1 banjo bolt and washers and a TD04 turbo - manifold gasket from my local Saab dealers.
This weekend i will commence fitting the turbo to the car,
All i have left to do is to work out how im going to approach plumbing in the oil return pipe and fit my actuator to the TD04 actuator plate by driling the welds off the old one and bolting the new one on.
Also i have to re drill the turbo support bracket to accept the new bolt pattern on the manifold.
Should hopefully be up and running by Sunday :D

Pete.

Ill post some pics tomorrow

tandino
12th August 2003, 03:36 PM
Here's some pics a day early :cheesy:

tevid
12th August 2003, 03:55 PM
tandino
your TD04 setup looks so much different from mine, mine looks so stock and well more like i did it in a day *which i did*
i really need to dress it up before i show you pics or you'll think i ghetto rigged it to work :oops:

tandino
12th August 2003, 04:43 PM
LOL Tevid - its a good job i didnt go for the 'pretty' blue and red anodised banjo connectors then :cheesy: :cheesy: ,
I was a bit worried about the thermal properties of ally though - its a bit more prone to failure after repeated heating up and cooling down.
Sure would have looked nice though :cheesy:

Pete.

tevid
12th August 2003, 04:47 PM
well you can always just paint your lines, i think brake caliper paint is pretty heat resistant i'll look into it though there's paint dad buys for his business thats capable of 1000C so maybe that in a nice blue or pink for you

tandino
18th August 2003, 05:05 PM
Well im nearly there :D - hopefully i should be finished tomorrow,
Ill probably leave fitting the JT downpipe until the weekend as i have to use the car towards the end of the week.
All thats left to do is to mount the actuator - ill have to drill and tap new threads as the orientation of the compressor housing is completely different as ive rotated it for the front mount i/c.
Also ill have to modify the turbo support bracket to accept the new manifold bolt pattern.
The new manifold is on the car so ill start on it when i get home from my nightshift :o ,
Here's a brief overview of what ive done so far:-

1.Modify manifold to match TD04 bolt pattern.
2.Modify manifold to allow clearance for nuts for turbo studs.
3.Modify TD04 turbine housing to match T3 manifold.
4.Modify compressor housing (drill and re-tap new threads). to allow actuator to reach wastegate due to different compressor orientation for FMIC.
5.Modify Existing oil drain pipe to fit TD04 bolt pattern.
6.New oil supply pipe - braided in my case.
7.New banjo fitting and rubber flexi pipe for water feed and return.

To do tomorrow
8.Modify turbo support bracket.
9.Drill and tap new threads for relocated actuator.
10.Fit actuator

As you can see there's quite alot to do this conversion :o :o

Pete.

tandino
20th August 2003, 03:47 PM
Cor Blimey - what a day,
I started at 9am and finished at 5.30pm,
Everything's done - water lines are connected up, oil lines are all on basically everythings done bar the exhaust downpipe,
Im having to get it welded as my friends mig which usually lives at my house is over at his :evil: ,
I have to get the Jetex 3" - 2.5" adapter welded onto the end of the JT downpipe so that it can mate with the rest of the system,
I also had to get a threaded rod welded to my 0.5 bar actuator as the one that came with the turbo is very weak,
Corrspondingly the rod on the Garret 0.5 bar was too short so needed to be lengthend hence the welding.........
I also got a flexible braided oil return hose made up as the original metal one i fabricated didnt leave enough clearance for the turbo support bracket.........
Hopefully i shall get the downpipe back tomorrow or Friday then its just a case of deciding what to do with the battery,
Im torn between leaving it in its stock location and going for a dry cell battery of an appropriate size or moving the original 'wet' battery over to the opposite side of the car under the air filter
Decisions,decisions.............
I absolutely wacked out :o
And im working at midnight :o :o
Nice :o :o :o

Pete.